Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: darxe on June 02, 2010, 10:10:05 AM
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Can anyone add some comments on best tactics for shooting down bombers? The old tried and true is to approach the bomber from the rear guns blazing! Great option if you are flying a plane with lots of guns and the bomber is near target where they are paying attention to the bomb sights. Otherwise, any bomber worth their weight in salt will turn you into swiss cheese.
What I have been working on lately is getting above the bombers at 3 or 9 oclock, getting my ‘E’ up and then slice at the bombers from the side with lots of speed. Harder for the bomber to shoot you but harder for you to shoot them as well. It takes quite a bit more skill with the bombers moving perpendicular and you have to account for drift and timing.
Any other good tactics people like to use?
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Sounds like you're on the right track, the 'ol dead six approach is aptly named because that's usually what the result is. High side attacks aren't a bad way to go, I also like to climb above the bomber, get a little in front of them and roll over in a split-S and come down right on top of them, passing over the top turret as I'm firing.
This makes it hard for the top gunner to track you since the gun only elevates up to about 90 degrees, as you pass from in front of the gunner position to behind it he has to rotate 180 degrees and it's a hard shot. From the attack POV you can get a shot at the cockpit or engine/wing root and if you're aircraft has a decent gun package score some damage on the bomber or bring it down.
Attacking bombers can be an exercise in patience, but one where patience is generally rewarded.
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Sounds like you're on the right track
He absolutely is. :aok
When it comes to attacking bombers, 90% of AH players are like Homer Simpson trying to grab a red-hot sausage: They burn their fingers, scream D'oh!, grab again, burn fingers....
Darxe, the way you have choosen to attack buffs is exactly the way I prefer. I usually fly German tater planes, whose combination of climbrate, speed and (most important) heavy quick burst firepower are perfectly suited for this.
I occasionally do the over the top attack Soulyss just described, but I find getting the right coordination a bit more difficult. I usually reserve that for situations where I'm facing an extraordinary good buff gunner.
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Thanks I will keep practicing it then. The top approach is a good idea. I imagine after you dive past the bomber you can either use that E to climb up for another run or turn and use the same tactic to the belly. Maybe finish off a wing from the 1st pass.
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I'm also partial to dropping in from directly above. You're looking at the bomber from directly above so you have the largest possible target to shoot at. If the setup is right and I have enough speed, I'll do the initial top attack back to front, which allows me to reverse for a frontal attack, possibly on the next bomber in the formation if I get the one I'm aiming at. HOing works very well on bombers (B25H excepted) as well. The cockpit is a great target.
The side pass, when you get it right, works extremely well. I find it more difficult though.
Wiley.
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For me, it depends on the bomber. If it has no belly guns, I prefer to get directly below (and a little ahead of them) with a lot of smash, then pull straight up into them, shooting their belly out. If it has belly guns, I prefer high side attacks, diving in at very high speed as previously described.
-Peabody-
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Thanks I will keep practicing it then. The top approach is a good idea. I imagine after you dive past the bomber you can either use that E to climb up for another run or turn and use the same tactic to the belly. Maybe finish off a wing from the 1st pass.
That's the idea, I tend to roll my wings so I pull out 90 degrees to their flight path and extend out to the side then start to set up another pass if I'm being good and patient. Often times I just swoop up and over and come right back in though, patience was never one of my strong suits. :)
Pop by the TA and if I'm on I'll be happy to play target drone for you and fire back, damage is turned off in there so we can do repeated runs till ammo runs dry.
I have the same name in game, just type ".f Soulyss" in the chat buffer and it'll tell you if I'm on and if I'm in the TA.
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For me, it depends on the bomber. If it has no belly guns, I prefer to get directly below (and a little ahead of them) with a lot of smash, then pull straight up into them, shooting their belly out.
There is some drawback to this attack. If combined lag of both players is high enough (and that's not that rare), you can be right under his belly, outside of his gun arc on your screen - but at the same time, you can be behind him on his screen, so that he still has a shot with the tail gun.
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There is some drawback to this attack. If combined lag of both players is high enough (and that's not that rare), you can be right under his belly, outside of his gun arc on your screen - but at the same time, you can be behind him on his screen, so that he still has a shot with the tail gun.
The other downside is that if your aim is as bad as mine you don't kill him in time and end up 200 yards directly behind him with the tail gunner smiling at you. :)
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The other downside is that if your aim is as bad as mine you don't kill him in time and end up 200 yards directly behind him with the tail gunner smiling at you. :)
Hehe.. I sometimes attack Ki-67s that way to avoid the top turret.
It's always very exciting, for I know: If I botch this, I will just zoom into his stream of 20mm's... :uhoh
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I'd say definitely on the right track. My track record against bombers isn't all that great because I have a problem with keeping enough patience to do what I know I need to... what I NEED to do is run my first attack straight head on (hopefully taking out the pilot), then using my E to climb up, and run a 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock slashing pattern. I also tend to aim for the outside aircraft first instead of the middle (except on the first HO attempt) mainly because it's harder for the guns to aim if you aren't heading straight at the primary focus point (lead bomber).
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I also tend to aim for the outside aircraft first instead of the middle (except on the first HO attempt) mainly because it's harder for the guns to aim if you aren't heading straight at the primary focus point (lead bomber).
Very good point.
Another advantage: You avoid the dreaded drone insta warp when the lead plane blows up.
(The preferred order of attack would be right drone, left drone, lead)
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With the no-belly gun planes, my preference is to get below them and pop my nose up for a quick burst, then drop down before I enter their zones of fire, then repeat until dead. It requires me to fire from further out generally, but it's safe.
Wiley.
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I agree with the circling type attack from above. Normally I aim for left drone also. Here is a clip I put up awhile back, ended up aborting 1st attack for lack of speed and bad angle and converting to my normal attack run. Switched to lead simply due to feel....
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/Buffrun.ahf (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/Buffrun.ahf)
I normally aim for cockpit to wingroot figuring I get 3 chances, 1st cockpit hits, then wingroot itself and finally fire...this one hit the cockpit solid...
(http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/cockpitshot.jpg)
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Great pic! I do have a question about the angle though. Like all shots in flight the nose gets in the way of leading the shot. So to clarify when you say correct angle of attack you would want to roll so that the full bomber is visible?
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Great pic! I do have a question about the angle though. Like all shots in flight the nose gets in the way of leading the shot. So to clarify when you say correct angle of attack you would want to roll so that the full bomber is visible?
You can roll your wings a little so that the target is approaching from the side which helps get the nose out of the way, you can also program one of your views to either move your head higher in the seat, or in the case of the P-40 off to one side a bit to help see around the nose.
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I like to come up from underneath a box of bombers and climb into them, esp with lanks. Lanks don't have belly gunners so if you come in fast and underneath them, then pull up and shoot. Once you overshoot and fly above them, roll over and repeat (and dive on them like others have suggested).
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I like to attack from the 3 or 9 o'clock, slide my views to match the direction of the attack ( bombers right, slide right ). Plan your attack well ahead and make the necessary adjustments.... then shoot in front of the formation as it crosses in front of you. Buffs are big enough targets to land alot of hits on them in this manner and often times I'll smoke 2 bombers or the whole formation this way ( w/ 30mm birds). A good friend taught me this trick :noid
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I've found that with 30mms it's good to come up from the bottom, and as soon as you pass under and fire, roll over immediately and fire inverted on your way down. Then setup again.Makes it hard for a guy to track the fighter...but then again, to each his own.
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Hehe.. I sometimes attack Ki-67s that way to avoid the top turret.
It's always very exciting, for I know: If I botch this, I will just zoom into his stream of 20mm's... :uhoh
that reminds me of when some spit dweeb came up from dead 6 overshot and got the 20mm pwnge :devil :t
but ahh i always have rubber bullets so it took me long time :(
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My favorite is when I approach a bomber and he opens fire when I am not even in range. I like to float at range and let them use up all of their ammo. Then the evil side of me likes to move in at the six after the guy is in a panic because there is nothing he can do :t
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Use your arrow keys so you can see out the "edge" of the cockpit. At first you'll have a pseudo-uncomfortable feeling looking out the side but once you get used to it.... :aok BUT.... That isn't the end all be all, you will still have a blocked view at times. Think about your egress from the first pass and set it up so you can execute it with the better view. ( move left vs. move right )
Great pic! I do have a question about the angle though. Like all shots in flight the nose gets in the way of leading the shot. So to clarify when you say correct angle of attack you would want to roll so that the full bomber is visible?
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I would offer up another suggestion for helping you determine the best angle..
Fly bombers for awhile and see what angles are the hardest to hit with the guns. ( After, of course, you've mastered defensive gunnery )
Then you really won't have much question as to where the best approaches are. You also get the benefit of seeing others' form and get an idea of the amount of time necessary to set the shot up.
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I posted this in a different thread, but since it applies here too...
Buffs require patience... If you fly them, it takes a long time to get where you're going, especially at an altitude that gives you a margin of safety. If you're in a fighter, it takes patience to get into a position to attack from above, and be able to zoom forward so you can set up another steep attack.
In either case, rushing the situation just leads to frustration. It takes time to set things up right. Like almost everyone mentioned, if you attack bombers "wrong", they're lethal. If you attack them "right" though, they're very vulnerable. Maybe even too vulnerable?
Attack them in a steep dive. Try not to go too much below them as you go by, and zoom forward for your next attack. In a case like this one, looping works fine. Had I not had quite as much speed, my attack would more closely resemble a very large barrel roll with my shooting taking place at the bottom of the coils. If you find yourself unable to attack in a steep dive, stop attacking. Fly parallel with them, getting out front and above them, and set up a decent attack. As you get better at it, you can afford more risk, but be careful, there are a few really good shots out there!
This type of attack is easy to master, and very effective. I had a month where I paid attention to my K/D vs buffs a few years ago. Using this type of attack, my K/D against all bombers was roughly 80 or 90 to 1. The one was a C47 that jinked a bit while I was too fast and I rammed him, lol. Embarrassing... Take the time it takes to set up this type of attack, and get good at it. Then, you can start to attack without such a good position, and you'll still do fine. Don't worry about whether they've dropped their ord or not. That will just cause you to rush things. Set up the kill, and worry about getting quick at it later. Bombers begin to look like "gimme" kills after a while.
http://www.4shared.com/file/0h_xSRI2/6_buffs_with_Saber.html (these were set afire, but it doesn't seem to show in this film).
http://www.4shared.com/file/wUpB-EdR/Lancs_0000.html
You don't need big cannons, or a long time to land your shots. A decent hit in the right place and they really don't stand much of a chance. Don't sit behind them, or attack at a shallow dive angle. Minimize the time you're exposed to their guns. Shoot for the cockpit, wingtip, or wing root. Clear the right drone first, left drone second, and lead bomber last. If you light one on fire, it will die. Time your dive so that as you get in range for your second pass, the burning plane has already died. Attacking from front to back works fine for one pass, but makes subsequent passes take forever to set up.
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Thanks I will keep practicing it then. The top approach is a good idea. I imagine after you dive past the bomber you can either use that E to climb up for another run or turn and use the same tactic to the belly. Maybe finish off a wing from the 1st pass.
Your speed, or more accurately your angular motion from the gunner perspective is your defense. Attacking from higher altitude allows you to pass the bomber when you are fastest. In addition, the vulnerable parts of the bomber are wings and engines - they are easier to hit from above the bomber wing plane.
If your horizontal flight path is not aligned with the bomber's (i.e. you dive at least a little to the side) he will have to track you in two rotation axis and is much more likely to miss. I always try to add some cross component to the attack direction.
The last means of defense is the above-under-above attack: you have to think like a gunner. If you start from above and to the side, the gunner will most likely be in the top turret. To lead you he will have to aim ahead of you. This means that if you take your shots and drop below the bomber wings plane he will be unable to lead you even BEFORE you actually get below him. At this point he will try to jump into another turret: rear or belly. If you use your speed to pass below him and cross to his other side and do not drop too far behind his 3/6 oclick line, he cannot shoot you from the rear and will have to re-acquire you from the belly and rotate like crazy to track you blasting close and below him. Use the speed to get away quickly flying between 60-90 degrees from the bomber direction and only a little below his level - do not climb immediately! use the speed to get some distance. When the belly gunner acquires you and start shooting, then start your zoom - he will lose you again as you get above his wings plane and will have to jump back into the top turrent, reacquire you and by that time, you are already 1+k away in a climb for the next attack.
The general pattern is:
1. Parallel and above to one side
2. diving attack diagonal to the bomber path and dropping below him.
3. fast level flight under and in a diagonal direction to the bomber (do not fall behind) until safe distance is reached.
4. zoom to above the bomber level, establish a parallel path from the other side and back to #1
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Good points mtnman and bozon thanks. That is probably my biggest problem with dive bombing and bomber attacking is extending 1st before I try to get into position again. Being able to extend away should be key. I know when I am in the gunner seat the hardest thing to do is reacquire the target after I lose sight of him. Jumping to different guns then adjusting the sights. That key moment should be used to provide separation before setting up for another shot. There seems to be a common theme with all tactics discussed here....PATIENCE!
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What I do see with inexperienced players that are trying to attack buffs the "right" way is that they just extend - Often too long and in the wrong direction, which makes setting up the next attack more difficult.
Your next attack actually begins the moment you pass the buffs. Plan ahead, have an idea where you will (or want to) end up with you plane to set up your next attack. Do not just dive down and extend to the bombers 6, do not just think about getting away. Think about the next attack even when first one is not over yet.
When I do a high speed slashing attack from 2-3 line, I immediately start a gentle, shallow climbing turn towards the flight directions off the buffs, which a gradually increasing climb & turn angle once I got about 800yds seperation. That way I do not lose too much E and get a better position for my next attack, while still giving the buff gunner a very difficult target.
Never stop to think aggressive, never stop to think about you next attack. Note that "thinking agressive" and setting up your attack patiently do not exclude each other.