Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: wgmount on June 04, 2010, 04:07:49 PM
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Anyone willing to work with me on deck merges in dueling area. i'll be at Field 20 vox 232 from 630 edt until 930 edt. I fly the F4U-x mostly and been flying it since I started. Easy kills for anyone willing to explain what I'm doing wrong and right. Not very good at the rolling scissors either. I have a couple films from other duels that I've sent to trainers but no answer from 5 of them yet.
Flushed
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When did you send the films in? I was just going through emails again this morning and don't recall seeing anything.
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Anyone willing to work with me on deck merges in dueling area. i'll be at Field 20 vox 232 from 630 edt until 930 edt. I fly the F4U-x mostly and been flying it since I started. Easy kills for anyone willing to explain what I'm doing wrong and right. Not very good at the rolling scissors either. I have a couple films from other duels that I've sent to trainers but no answer from 5 of them yet.
Flushed
Come to TA and I'll try to show as much as possible.
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I didn't send one to you. I won't name the 5 don't want to make them mad but 2 of them are in the same squad as me. :lol <hint,hint> Well, I didn't actually send them to them either but they can see it readily in our training room. But I'll send them to you soulyss for some tips.
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I didn't send one to you. I won't name the 5 don't want to make them mad but 2 of them are in the same squad as me. :lol <hint,hint> Well, I didn't actually send them to them either but they can see it readily in our training room. But I'll send them to you soulyss for some tips.
Try posting them here Flushed. For some reason I couldn't get them to download through your PM's. They came up as "The file you requested is invalid" or something similar...
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http://www.4shared.com/file/06J2p_yV/film50.html
This one was today. But the guy is a better pilot than I gave him credit for. It is a deck merge and it's not the same as the ones we did the other night mtnman. It is the -4
http://www.4shared.com/file/0zYiGCGd/film48.html
http://www.4shared.com/file/zU4W5D6z/film49.html
these 2 are from a dueling tournament. I have more but these show pretty much how badly i do the merge and the rolling scissors.
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Flushed anytime you want to work on something just holler.
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Flushed,
As I mentioned last night the e-mail for the trainers isn't exactly a sure thing, at least mine isn't. I posted a reply on our forums for you.
:salute
BigRat
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Flushed, I would hook up Bighorn and record everything.
OOhhh ya talk loud he is a little hard of hearing. :old: :old: :old:
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http://www.4shared.com/file/06J2p_yV/film50.html
This one was today. But the guy is a better pilot than I gave him credit for. It is a deck merge and it's not the same as the ones we did the other night mtnman. It is the -4
Keep in mind, these are just my opinions, and are the way I would probably go about things. They're not necessarily "right", and it's tough to say what would have happened in the end if you'd changed things... I'm sure your opponent would have changed his approach too, if you'd changed yours. Anyway...
Film 50- Deck merges are fine. But, he let you go up first, and then just stayed below you as best he could. You could have turned flatter, or else recognized what eh was doing and transitioned into more of an "E" fight. At about 2:15 I'd have been pulling DOWN harder, and then rolling right side up and pulling for a point about 2-3 plane lengths BEHIND him (not diving for speed, so much as flying a longer path, that would have placed me behind him). At 2:30-2:31 (2:32 is too late) I'd have rolled LEFT and looked to pull onto him again. It'd have been quicker. Following him around to your right took too long, and let him get too far around the circle. Left would have been a nice "short-cut". What I think I'm seeing mainly with your rolling scissors is that at the bottom of your helix, your not setting up enough lag pursuit. At the top though, you're swinging through with rudder nicely. I go for a bit of "extra" lag as I swing my nose up, and make adjustments with my rudder at the top (even going for some temporary lead pursuit there). Keep in mind, the object of the rolling scissors is to "lose" it, and have your opponent pop out ahead of you. Racing to get a shot will get you killed. Of course, you don't want to fall so far behind that he gets around the circle on you, but most people having problems with the scissors aren't doing that. They're pushing too hard to finish things up.
Don't get me started on the HO, lol! IMO, the fault doesn't go to the guy who squeezes the trigger, it goes to the guy who fails to keep his plane from being somewhere it's gonna get shot! Going for a position BEHIND your opponent helps avoid those HO-type shots though, as would rolling the opposite direction occasionally. You're fighting to turn too tight in several instances, which can be seen as "forcing" the HO, even if you don't want to shoot HO. You need to learn where in a fight you can "back off" for a second, and actually set yourself up in a better position. It's hard to describe where, exactly. Watch some films where you get HO'ed, and try to run some other options through your head- If I'd have rolled left there, what would have happened? What if I'd have pulled tight, turned flatter, gone more vertical?, etc..
The trick is to kill the guys who try to HO you, not complain as if it somehow isn't a "fair" or "legitimate" shot. His job is to shoot you, after all.
http://www.4shared.com/file/0zYiGCGd/film48.html
You set the merge up fine, but where you messed up a bit was not realizing he wasn't using an immelmann. He was staying a bit "flatter", and staying below you, even though you started out under him (where you normally want to be). So, the merge wasn't bad, but what happened afterward is the problem. Had I been in your position, at 2:46 I would have gone down towards him just a bit (not HO, and not close enough to get shot) to maintain or recoup just a bit of speed (while he's losing his), and THEN gone up again as I passed him. He's scrubbed more E than you at that point, BUT, he has enough to stay close enough for a shot. By nosing down slightly, and watching him to be sure he doesn't QUITE have a shot, you tempt him to hold his nose up, while you get ready to pull up, roll over, and drop back into him as his E bleeds too far. Had he recognized that, he'd have been forced to get his nose down, and you'd have been behind him. As it was, you pulled up a bit more, but it was at the time that was most convenient FOR HIM. You realized that, but a bit too late, and now you're stuck reacting to him.
Even so, at 3:10, I had hope again. At 3:16 though, you needed to go UP, and then roll RIGHT over on top of him. It's flirting with getting shot, I know, but I doubt he could have gotten his nose on you. Also, at this point, you do have enough speed to do that, and had he tried to follow, I think he'd have wallowed.
At 3:33, I would have rolled LEFT just past "wings-level" and pulled up into a left-hand barrel roll, denying the shot that hit your pilot, and looking to set myself up with a better angle. I would have been watching really close to him, and adjusting the size, angle, and speed of that roll to either pull in behind him, or else set up an over-shoot of sorts. Hard to describe, and hard for you to visualize, I'm sure. And it may not have worked... But, pulling the turn tighter (like you did), is a situation where you only live through it if he decides not to shoot, or messes up/misses his shot.
The rolling scissors after that is oh-so-close! A little more laggy in your pursuit might have helped. Killing him on your first shot would have been nice too... But not bad at all! You're getting there!
http://www.4shared.com/file/zU4W5D6z/film49.html
these 2 are from a dueling tournament. I have more but these show pretty much how badly i do the merge and the rolling scissors.
At 3:32, I would have rolled a little more left, and pulled up (to get my nose down), and built more speed. I would have been planning to build some speed and zoom upward as I passed him. Not a huge dive, just enough. I'd have been a bit UNDER him at 3:38, coming back up. To me, you're flirting with hesitation, not quite going for an energy-type fight, and not quite going for a tight angles fight. Since I got that impression so early here, I'd not try to adapt to a tight turn anymore, especially if I think that's what my opponent is after, because IMO I'd be to far "behind" in that game already. Since he's going for a quick shot I'd let him pull for it, staying just out of his guns, holding some of my own E, and getting above him.
The shot at 4:00 is tempting, and just what I like to present my opponents with. You hit him, but barely. Had you recognized where he was headed, and NOT pulled for it, you could have flown behind him, pulled up , and possibly had a kill shot. Pulling for it (and failing to kill him) is where the error was, IMO. If you're gonna go for it, you have to make it. If you don't think it's probable you'll make the shot, let it pass for abetter set-up 3-4 seconds later. That pull for the shot, and little wing-wobble was what ended things for you. Sure, you lasted a little longer, but you were in big trouble.
Editing your films would be nice. I'm not complaining, I'm guessing you just don't know how. Clipping out the "boring stuff", like the flight to the fight, and what goes on after, is greatly appreciated though.
To do that, watch your film, and figure out when you think it would be "best" to start your clip. About 5-10 seconds before your opponent comes into icon range would be great for these. I would watch your film with your mouse on the pause button. Click it when you see his icon, and note the time. Say it's at 2:45 into the film. Drag the slider back a bit, and begin playing the film again. Now, however, put your mouse on the [Start Select] button near the top-right of the viewer. Don't watch the film, watch the time. At 2:35 into the film (with it still playing), click on the [Start Select] button. Now, move your mouse onto the [End Select] button, and click on that when the action is over. Now, click on [Copy Select], and choose the location you want it Saved to (My Documents, or Desktop, maybe). Name it. Click [Save]. Close the viewer, go find the clip, and watch it. If it's good, upload that instead of the "full version".
If you haven't found it yet, you can speed up the play speed to make editing your clips easier. At the top of your viewer is a small slider above a [1x] box. Sliding it to the right will speed up the film 2x. Sliding it back gives you "slow-motion".
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yea I tried to figure out the editing but didn't know how to save it. Well, it was what went on in the MA that made the Duel. He lost his F4U-4 to my F4u-1a when he tried to pull a Ho shot on me and we collided. After that he wanted to Duel. I needed the practice so I went ahead. He wouldn't merge with me at 7k. so I went ahead and merged with him on the deck. He's better than I gave him credit for after the collision.
My apologies if my initial post seemed offensive to anyone. Sometimes my thoughts get ahead of my brain. And I don't express myself well.
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At 3:32, I would have rolled a little more left, and pulled up (to get my nose down), and built more speed. I would have been planning to build some speed and zoom upward as I passed him. Not a huge dive, just enough.
I'm not quite picturing this in my head. At 3:32 I'm in a high banked nose high turn. Leveling out a little and raising the elevator would have brought the nose down?
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Ok if your in a high bank high Gee turn, rolling a bit more would have taken you inverted. Combine that with a pull up (remember your inverted) will bring your nose down below the horizon. Then roll out level and zoom as you pass, using the speed you gained in the shallow dive to zoom.
At least that's what I think mtnman was getting at.
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Harder use of rudder to get faster roll movements and to get the nose around faster would be helpful in alot of the situations I think.. And if you don't have a FRONT UP view setting I would get one set. It is alot better than shifting between front and up view when you need to look right between the two..
I am not a trainer, but I got some hours in the F4U.. Enough to make me some thoughts.
Also when a turnfight is becoming a ho I would not push for the head on just as mtnman pointed out, I would rather level out just before and perhaps zoom up just as I am getting shot at. I like to point my wingtip at my opponent when zooming up like that, then I make a smaller target for him to hit. Then if you did it right you could drop down behind again by using flaps and hard rudder to go inverted and drop down level again a better position.
Just my thoughts, may the trainers shoot me if I am wrong. :aok :salute
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Ok if your in a high bank high Gee turn, rolling a bit more would have taken you inverted. Combine that with a pull up (remember your inverted) will bring your nose down below the horizon. Then roll out level and zoom as you pass, using the speed you gained in the shallow dive to zoom.
At least that's what I think mtnman was getting at.
Yea, that's what I would have done anyway. For a few reasons.
Flushed-
At that point, the fight is going upward, and you're higher than him. You're also slower/less maneuverable, and he has the ability to get his nose awful close to you, if not actually on you. I honestly thought he was gonna kill you at 3:38 or 3:39. I'm reading that "problem" by the 3:28-3:29 mark, and at 3:30, I've got some pretty serious alarms ringing in my head, and I'm thinking "I need to fix this NOW!"
Any kind of move that keeps you above him, or takes you higher, is working for him at this point, and a possible kill shot on you by 3:39. So, IMO, you need to do something that he can't follow, and at this point, that's down. And I see a "safe place" to fly at 3:32 (aim at the red dot)-
(http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m309/Mtnman_03/aimhere.jpg)
You're already banked left, and it'd be easy to direct your nose there (low cost in E). You won't need to go quite inverted to get your nose there, so once you're pointed there, roll back right to wings-level or a little past, and probably pull back up (as you pass under him) for some flavor of yo-yo or immelman (it'd depend on what Bosco's response was at that point).
Bosco can't follow you there, and if he tries, great! He has to pull his nose further (and harder) than you, so that'll cost him time (and E). And if he does get into a "chase your tail" mode, in order to follow you "up", he has to fly a "loop" of around 320 degrees, while you're only going to need about 280. If he flew that way, all you'd need to do is stretch that immelman into a rope. He wouldn't do that though...
He'd probably realize you intended to go up after you passed under him (you want to do that about the time you were directly under him) and he'd be looking to do the same. But that's not a great option anymore, because... The fight is going somewhat upwards (like in the beginning) and due to your small dive you've picked up some speed, you can maneuver pretty good, and... he's now above YOU.
So, realistically, if you aim your nose down at the point I drew on the screenshot, you'll have changed the whole dynamic of the fight, and it's probably pointless to really go into what could have happened. The point is, though (IMO) it probably would have been a whole lot better than to open yourself up to being dead at 3:39...
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Harder use of rudder to get faster roll movements and to get the nose around faster would be helpful in alot of the situations I think.. And if you don't have a FRONT UP view setting I would get one set. It is alot better than shifting between front and up view when you need to look right between the two..
I am not a trainer, but I got some hours in the F4U.. Enough to make me some thoughts.
Also when a turnfight is becoming a ho I would not push for the head on just as mtnman pointed out, I would rather level out just before and perhaps zoom up just as I am getting shot at. I like to point my wingtip at my opponent when zooming up like that, then I make a smaller target for him to hit. Then if you did it right you could drop down behind again by using flaps and hard rudder to go inverted and drop down level again a better position.
Just my thoughts, may the trainers shoot me if I am wrong. :aok :salute
That doesn't sound wrong at all to me, I often do the same thing in similar situations. To do that though, I really want closure from the side (which you illustrate by pointing your wingtip at him).
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The rudder gets me into lots of trouble. I was fighting with bighorn in the TA the other day and had My F4u turning like a zeke for about 2 turns. Then I got this weird stall. the thing went nose down and wasn't quite spinning it would just turn left to right. When I'd think I had caught it it wold snap back the other way. I was about 10 k and all I could do was ride it all the way to the lake. :)
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The rudder gets me into lots of trouble. I was fighting with bighorn in the TA the other day and had My F4u turning like a zeke for about 2 turns. Then I got this weird stall. the thing went nose down and wasn't quite spinning it would just turn left to right. When I'd think I had caught it it wold snap back the other way. I was about 10 k and all I could do was ride it all the way to the lake. :)
As I've said in TA, you have to learn to control the plane at all speeds, using all the controls, which simply means you need more practice.
If I'd be you, I'd forget about all the technical ACM details since they just distract at the moment and just practice riding the edge, stall recovery, etc.
Perhaps adjusting axis scaling for rudder a bit. That's it...
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The Rudder is something you have to be carefull with, now more then it was a few updates ago. You can only hold it for so long, before stuff gets interesting in a bad way. As with what bighorn said, a lot is learning the very edge of the flight envelope. Even this has to be constantly reinforced. As any regular in the TA will tell ya, I'm often seen stall practicing over A1. Trying to get the plane into bad situations and recover from them, also practicing things like how slow can I do a rolling scissors, exactly how long can I hold a lot of rudder input at this speed, etc.. The main thing is to not get frustrated with it and keep working on it. As you know there are plenty of good hog sticks that visit the TA.
:salute
BigRat
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It'll do that, but that's part of learning how to use it and get the most out of it. Like a lot of other things, using it either excessively, or not enough, will get you into trouble. In the F4U, you need to be managing a lot of things at the same time. Throttle, rudder, flaps, etc.. It's a great plane, but it isn't an easy plane to fly well. It doesn't react well if you over-control, or if you drop flaps and leave them down, or use too much or too little rudder or elevator. It's a very "busy" plane to fly.
Keep in mind, too, that a great recipe for a spin is rudder and elevator while near a stall. You're going to be flirting with those conditions A LOT. Don't avoid the rudder, or the stalls, or the spins; just learn to handle them quickly and efficiently. I'd head into the TA, and fly some aerobatics-type flights, just to get yourself into some of those conditions, and get back out of them. Practice them high at first, and then get lower. Learn to recover, and recover quickly. Learn to ride the extreme "edge" of controllable flight. I'm not one that "uses" stalls, spins, etc in a fight, but I sure get into them enough!
Think SSSMMMMOOOOOOOOOOTTTTTTHHHHHH as much as possible. Smooth doesn't mean necessarily mean slow movements. Things can be done quickly, as long as they're done smoothly.
And actually, since it's a game, and you don't really die, those nasty stalls are actually helpful. They require some effort and precise control to get out of, and that helps you learn. You'll get into those stalls while fighting too, and at first they generally mean you die. Eventually though, you learn to "fix things" without even thinking about them. Which is good, because you'll be too busy thinking about your opponent to be able to dwell on getting your nose down, chopping throttle, opposite rudder, building speed, and pulling out smmmmoooooottttthhhhlllyy... You need to get to the point where flying the plane is something you don't really consider. And recovering is just flying, so you don't want to be thinking about that either. Just do it; while keeping your head in the fight. That only comes with a lot of practice. Heck, I'm still practicing it! Whenever I'm in the TA, and I'm not actively working with someone, that's exactly what I'm doing. Stalling, spinning, recovering. Getting myself in all sorts of trouble, and getting out of it. Or getting myself ALMOST in trouble, and seeing how close I can push things.
Here's an example- If you watch it with my views enabled, you'll see that even though I'm spinning in a pretty nasty way, I'm actually looking for my opponent in the beginning and end of it. I don't have time to let my SA lapse while I recover. There's a point in there where I'm forced to get my head back inside the cockpit, because the water is actually a bigger threat at that point. As soon as I get my nose down, though, I'm looking for him again.
There's a point at 19 seconds in that's similar in situation to where you were in film 49 at 3:32. I don't need to get my nose down as far as you did, but I'm ready to... Then, I see him roll level and lift his nose, so I don't need to go down at all; but, see how my flight-path is below his at that point, so going up I'm "following" him, instead of leading him? I get greedy on the shot, try to shove my nose where I want it with rudder, and bang, I'm in trouble.
http://www.4shared.com/file/ceGImqJ-/Agent360_fun_fight_with_stall_.html
Here's another one, where I actually stall a few times in the fight. Notice again that although I'm in the process of recovering, I'm still watching my opponent. And, once your nose is down, you can roll to keep him where you need him, as long as you don't pull hard on the elevator.
http://www.4shared.com/file/U28CF2rJ/Keil_152_wierd_stalls.html
Here's a film of an F4U vs F4U MA fight, where we get to play with the rolling scissors. Watch the use of lag and lead pursuit, and you can also see how I use the rudder to speed up my roll when I want to. This is also one where being able to control the plane when slow is important, after the rolling scissors is finished.
http://www.4shared.com/file/I27fUfmx/Shawk_1A_vs_1A.html
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I apogize for not talking to you a little more when we had the duel, just had to take care of somethings outside of the game. But here is from my side of the film
http://www.mediafire.com/?ybhz22nczyz
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No problem Bosco. Seems my practice has ended for a couple weeks now anyway. My computer died this morning and the replacement won't be here until 6/24.
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It's hard for me to watch a film and critique what your doing wrong especially since your already a good pilot. I saw one instance that your nose is going to much nose down instead of being in a pure pursuit position for a sec. I do better teaching by being your opponent - looked like you handled him pretty well I'd have to go back in look but what was your speed vs his in the bottom of the scissors - it appeared he was working more throttle then you. Anyways you know I'm always willing to help if you want to do some duels.
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As I've said in TA, you have to learn to control the plane at all speeds, using all the controls, which simply means you need more practice.
If I'd be you, I'd forget about all the technical ACM details since they just distract at the moment and just practice riding the edge, stall recovery, etc.
Perhaps adjusting axis scaling for rudder a bit. That's it...
QFT!!
Wgmount,we both know Big and if he's saying this to you I'd suggest you listen and do what he says,Oh and we both could use some practice shooting!!!! :rofl :rofl
:salute