Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: gyrene81 on June 11, 2010, 11:20:12 AM
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August 15, 1944 Operation Dragoon - Allied invasion of Southern France.
On August 15, 1944 forces from the U.S., U.K., Canada and France took part in the invasion of Southern France along the “French Riviera” area. The invasion force consisted of 6 multi-national naval task forces, the U.S. 7th Army and the French Armee “B” with carrier based air support from the U.S., Britain and France (flying U.S. and U.K. aircraft) as well as bombers from the Mediterranean Allied Tactical Air Force .
The only opposing force was the German 19th Army with limited support from the Luftwaffe, neither of which could offer much resistance to the Allied invasion. The bulk of available German forces had been diverted to counter the Normandy invasion forces.
For this setup we’re going to use the Greece terrain with limited active bases and equipment.
There will be objectives for each side to enable different equipment for each side.
Allies start with 2 active CV groups. For the purpose of this setup they will not be controllable and will have a set path traveling parallel to the area of initial activity far enough off shore to prevent ship ack from being a factor in fights along the shoreline. East to West just South of the 15 line. Ship guns can be manned in the event of attacks on the ships and for the purpose of bombarding the bases closest to shore with the cruiser guns.
Allied Aircraft to start:
Seafire
FM2
F6F
(no rockets available)
B-25c (A115 only)
Lancaster (A115 only)
P-38J (A114, no ords for bomber escorts)
Allied vehicles to start:
LVTs
The allies first objective will be to take at least one of the neutral vbases along the coast (v99, v72, v103, v102) in order to gain the use of the following equipment:
Sherman tank 75mm
M16
M3
M8
Jeep
Capture A7 to get P-51D, 76mm Sherman and P-47D-40 with ords.
No C-47s.
To win the battle, capture v96 and hold 3 of the 4 coastal vbases.
The 2 ports in the area will be axis held but only the vehicle hangars will be active...no ships.
The axis control v97, v98, v100, a43, a42 and a7.
All other bases are inactive Axis.
Axis aircraft to start:
109G6
109G2
190A5
190A8
Ju-88 (no torpedoes)
Axis vehicles to start:
Panzer IV
Wirbelwind
Ostwind
SdKfz 251
Capture V102 to get the Tiger.
Capture A114 to get the 190D9 and 109K4.
To win the battle, capture A115 and hold 3 of the 4 coastal vbases (v99, v72, v103, v102).
Any equipment that has been enabled with a field capture will not be disabled if the fields are lost to the enemy.
Arena Settings
Killshooter: Off
Fuel Burn: 1.0
Enemy Icons: Off
Friendly Icons: 2.5
AAA: .25
Dar NOE Height: 500 ft
Radar settings: full friendly, tower full dot, clipboard sector.
Troop Capture: 15 drunks
Visibility: 10 miles
Bombsight: hardcore
Hangar DT: 45 mins
AAA DT: 45 minutes
Towns DT: 60 mins
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/405468/AH%20Stuff/Dragoon1.jpg)
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/405468/AH%20Stuff/dragoon2.jpg)
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Nice <S> :aok
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looks like fun, I think that the P-51C was actually the primary pony involved in operation Dragoon (VSC-8). RAF 2 SQD, 268 SQD and 414 SQD flew of 1 & 1a (Allison powered) mustangs.
Late in July, 10 brand-new P-51C
Mustangs were delivered to the 111 th
for use exclusively by VCS-8 aviators.
The invasion of southern France
began on 15 August, and by 30
August, Commander, Task Force 86,
requested that all Naval Aviators
assigned to the 111 th Tactical Reconnaissance
Squadron return to their
ships. In all, 11 flyers from VCS-8
participated in combat operations from
the cockpits of 111 th P-51 Mustangs.
The rest were F-6A mustangs (the recon version of the Allison P-51)
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I like it.
How about some P-38's and P-47's as well?
They participated in the invasion as well.
They should be based southeast of the invasion beach in the case of the P-38's (1st FG was based on Corsica for Dragoon) 114 or 115 would be appropriate. The P38's were escorting recon missions and doing long range strafing attacks.
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kill shooter will be on.
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First, sorry for the late notice on this. It's Jaeger's week to run a setup and he decided to use my setup (lots of reference help from Shifty) as part of my initiation...I was slow in responding to his inquiries so it's my fault it's getting posted "last minute".
Humble, I noticed the "C stangs" in one article I read...wasn't sure which model to use in this setup, should we change to the "B" model instead of the "D"s?
Dawger, I made the decision to base enablement of the P-38s and P-47s on the capture of A7 to start since the references I used showed the invasion did not involve the use of those aircraft until the armies landed started moving North. Maybe change it to P-38s at A114 for bomber escort (no bombs or rockets enabled) and have the Ponies enabled with the Jugs if A7 is captured?
Everything I saw said the P-51s provided escort for the bombers so that's what I went off of, and for the sake of game play even though I hate the term "balance".
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First, sorry for the late notice on this. It's Jaeger's week to run a setup and he decided to use my setup (lots of reference help from Shifty) as part of my initiation...I was slow in responding to his inquiries so it's my fault it's getting posted "last minute".
Humble, I noticed the "C stangs" in one article I read...wasn't sure which model to use in this setup, should we change to the "B" model instead of the "D"s?
Dawger, I made the decision to base enablement of the P-38s and P-47s on the capture of A7 to start since the references I used showed the invasion did not involve the use of those aircraft until the armies landed started moving North. Maybe change it to P-38s at A114 for bomber escort (no bombs or rockets enabled) and have the Ponies enabled with the Jugs if A7 is captured?
Everything I saw said the P-51s provided escort for the bombers so that's what I went off of, and for the sake of game play even though I hate the term "balance".
if you enable any US land based fighters they should be at 114 or 115 only in my opinion. But I'm pretty weird about that stuff. I like to fly 60 miles to the fight and historically they were in Corsica, 110 miles from the Cote D'Azur in France.
As for sources, different ones always say different things. Hard to get a straight answer really without seeing actual AAR's. What I read has most of the escorting being done for recon and transport aircraft, which makes sense in an amphibious/airborne invasion. I'm sure there were bomber operations in the area but not in direct support of the invasion and that is probably why the references differ somewhat.
As for game play or balance, the Pony D is certainly more of a "balance" issue than the 38 or the 47 but I think keeping them well away from the landing beach is going to solve the balance issue for most folks in any case.
And of course I'm asking for semi-selfish reasons. I'm in a P38 squadron and it is a lot easier to get the CO to drag everyone into the AvA for P38's.
Up to you. Either way I like the setup.
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Ok, for the sake of argument and since everyone pretty much everyone agrees the resources available say different things...and based on what Humble posted in regards to at least one group of P-51s assigned to the invasion...I made one last change (sorry Jaeger).
P-38Js start at A114 with no ords available at that base. Anyone who chooses to use the 38s can escort the bombers flying from A115 or strafe and dogfight.
Allies capture A7 to gain use of the P-51D and P-47D-40 with ords as well as the 76mm Sherman.
That should keep the "balance" fairly decent and provide enough fighting capabilities for both sides to mix it up. It's going to take team work (or late night milk running :D) for the objectives to be met.
Capture of any bases other than those specifically noted as being active at the beginning or as objectives to be captured will gain nothing but a useless base.
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The B pony is the correct option based on what I know....To the best of my knowledge all of the ponies were RAF and were various I, Ia and III. The III was a B or C model....
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I see 31st FG supporting in Ponies for this Operation so D's aren't unreasonable. They got D's in June 44.
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Only in very limited duty escorting transports. They flew no interdiction or bomber escort and to the best of my knowledge did not expend a single round of ammo over southern France. They flew escort on all 3 strikes against Ploesti and were tasked with all VIP escort missions related to the surrender of Romania from 23 August onward so they had little actual involvement with Dragoon...
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Only in very limited duty escorting transports. They flew no interdiction or bomber escort and to the best of my knowledge did not expend a single round of ammo over southern France. They flew escort on all 3 strikes against Ploesti and were tasked with all VIP escort missions related to the surrender of Romania from 23 August onward so they had little actual involvement with Dragoon...
So, because you don't think they flew an important enough role they can't be in this setup?
I doubt the guys in the transports felt that way.
I think this is more Humble isn't really all that humble.
The D model was there, supporting the landings and airborne operations on August 14 and 15 and they stayed there until August 20. The P38's and P-47's had much the same role.
And the 31st FG wasn't the only P-51D unit that participated in Dragoon but you are so well versed you already know that. I wonder if what those P-51's did was worthy of being included in this setup?
I just love these little tete a tete's with you. They are so productive.
It would have been easier to say "Hey, The D model did participate."
So humble....did any American unit flying P-51D's in support of Dragoon fire any rounds over France?
I wonder....................... .............
:neener:
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:noid
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I'm sorry you feel the need to try and make things so personal, obviously you have some serious issues of some type to resolve. You handle the BBS like you fly all chicken@#$^ and bluster. My comment was simply my understanding of what the major combatants that flew operational sorties and repeatedly engaged the enemy were in. Now obviously I'm sure a few folks like you would prefer to fly the best plane you can get (with the most #'s and altitude) at all times. Since I always fly the low side from the closest field to the action this stuff rarely concerns me....back at you :neener:
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What's the AvA without a little drama? :)
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Arena Settings
Killshooter: Off
What does the 'Killshooter' setting affect??
Thanks,
Cheese
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What does the 'Killshooter' setting affect??
Thanks,
Cheese
Killshooter is friendly fire setting and I think Jaeger mistyped that. Probably going to be turned on. With it on, fire into a friendly and you get damaged...turn it off and he will suffer damage. I personally prefer it off but...some people would get hot headed especially if people are doing what they do in the main arenas.
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I'm sorry you feel the need to try and make things so personal, obviously you have some serious issues of some type to resolve. You handle the BBS like you fly all chicken@#$^ and bluster. My comment was simply my understanding of what the major combatants that flew operational sorties and repeatedly engaged the enemy were in. Now obviously I'm sure a few folks like you would prefer to fly the best plane you can get (with the most #'s and altitude) at all times. Since I always fly the low side from the closest field to the action this stuff rarely concerns me....back at you :neener:
I think you might find (if you actually wanted to know) that I pretty much fly P38's unless of course there ain't any or, like today, the sides are unbalanced in the extreme when I was flying Japanese.
You were wrong, you can't admit it. You never can. End of story.
The original question was if P51D's were involved in the operation. Yes, 31st fighter group and 325th fighter group were assigned cover for the airborne operation. Not a major role, according to you. They encountered no enemy aircraft. It was August 1944. Wasn't much left of the Luftwaffe in France.
The 332nd Fighter Group, a rather famous group, flying a mix of P51D's and C's in August 1944 flew strafing missions on August 14 in support of Operation Dragoon.
2nd Lt. Alexander Jefferson was shot down that day on one of those strafing missions.
Here is a little write up regarding his shoot down.
Jefferson returns to the spot (http://www.skycontrol.net/history/tuskegee-airman-returns-to-spot-in-france-where-he-was-shot-down-in-1944/)
The funniest part of this little episode is I am the last person that wants to see P51D's in any setup but the history is the history. You are the one that insisted the mere presence wasn't enough after you realized you were incorrect about them not being involved.
It would have been simpler to just.................
:aok
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Base capture does not work. Put in 20 troops twice at 102 and nothing.
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Base capture does not work. Put in 20 troops twice at 102 and nothing.
Yeah, sorry man, some things are messed with the setup. It's getting worked on.
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Yeah, sorry man, some things are messed with the setup. It's getting worked on.
does that possibly include letting the allied side have at least another plane to use?
heck, axis get 4 planes from all their fields to either allied P38 only out of A114 or allied F6F, Fm2 or seafire off the only 2 cv's.....
whoever designed this was Pro-Axis for sure... ROFL
very historical for sure, except it is the opposite of what the History says
The only opposing force was the German 19th Army with limited support from the Luftwaffe, neither of which could offer much resistance to the Allied invasion. The bulk of available German forces had been diverted to counter the Normandy invasion forces.
combined (6) nations max effort for the invasion but limited here to (2) cv's and 3 fighters all of the slower ones at that...
very well planned verses all them axis CANNON monsters.....
did have a great fight with Dawger though, and then a 2 vs 1 with Chilli & strike.... <S> ya'll was some nice flying all of you
btw..... numbers are piling in at this moment, I just left that arena was like 5 to 6..........
edit:
I did however have "some" fun ....... could have been better, but heck I can't tell what type of plane i am fighting when flying allied , but is easy when flying axis and fighting allied :D
will try and get in there some more....... :cheers:
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LOL TC, you nitpicker. Keeerist, always one in the bunch. :neener:
Yes, obviously resources were read. Did you happen to notice the invasion was pretty much unopposed and the planes you're wanting active came from several hundred miles away as bomber escorts for a short time?
This is far from axis-centric...what is available on the carriers was what was available during the invasion to the extent of what is available in AH. Perhaps it would make you feel better if the Axis was only allowed 109E-4s and Stukas? Perhaps make it even more real and put the active Allied bases down in the south east corner of the map a few hundred miles away from the invasion site so the "good planes" have to fly somewhat realistic distances to get to the battle.
If the allies want Ponies and Jugs bad enough, go capture A7.
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lol, just messing gyrene.... I did not ask for any specific plane though.......
I did fly a seafire from one of the CV's but it took a lilwhile to get south to where the action was.. some nice axis flyers were kind enough to come bout 1/2 a sector N after I flew almost 2 to get to them. ( they had to get all that alt you know :noid )
hope toget back in there after the great grand babies parents comes and picks emup.. is cartoon time at the moment..... :salute
oh..... if I had a choice, I would ask for one of them F4U's..... :airplane:
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whoever designed this was Pro-Axis for sure... ROFL
Last night Batfink and I were feeling guilty because the Allied planes were so much better than what the Axis has. Worst plane from the carrier is a Hellcat.
Someone can try the base capture again, should work with 15 as advertised but you never know until you try.
- oldman
"Hey oldman, put your head in that cement mixer! You never know until you try, right?"
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Great night tonight! Numbers in the 20's. :rock