Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Dawger on June 14, 2010, 09:08:19 AM
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I want a few extra days to argue the history. I always learn something in those discussions.
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Going to argue that today actually. Just wondering if it should be an Africa or Italy setup. Map selection is slim so... :joystick:
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Lets do a mix.
Operation Husky, post landings.
Sicily has a bunch of fields close together.
I can whip up a setup for the way I would do it fairly quickly.
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LOL...I was just looking at Husky myself, from the initial invasion standpoint. Lots of aircraft we don't have. I'm thinking of some limits to the aircraft.
Say primary Allied fighters be P-40s with base capture to get the P-51B. Allied bombers B-26 and Boston III with base capture to get A-20.
Axis primary fighters C-202, C-205, Bf-109G2 with base capture to get Bf-109G6. Axis bombers Ju88 and Ju87.
Allied ground vehicles start with 75mm Sherman, etc... with base capture to get 76mm Sherman and Firefly.
Axis ground vehicles start with Panzer IV, etc... with base capture to get Tiger.
Post what you were considering. Look at the bases and consider strategy.
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Gimme a couple hours and I'll post what I would think would be fun.
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Before I get too deep into this I'll let you know the direction I am going in.
Setup A: July 15, 1943 The allies already have a beach head. The 31st FG has moved to Ponte Olivo on Sicily in their Spitfires. P-40's with the British Desert Air Force have also moved to Sicily.
The P-38's of the 82nd, 1st and 14th FG are supporting the bombers out of North Africa. The US bombers used were the B-17, B-26, B-25 and A-20, none stationed particularly close to Sicily.
Hurricanes were also involved as well as a bunch of aircraft not in the plane set (A-36, Blenheim, Baltimore, Beaufighter, Wellington)
So with this setup the Allies start with a foothold in Sicily and some aircraft on the island but only second line fighters (Spit V, P-40, Hurricane). The rest of the air assets are off island.
The Axis would have the C202, C205, 109G6 and 190A5 and Ju 87 on Sicily itself and all bombers (Ju88) back in Italy. The 109G6 was definitely on Sicily at the start of the invasion.
Ground Vehicles I would leave up to someone more versed than myself with the gameplay issues associated with them. No C47-s so capture would have to be done by ground with rebuild times that would make that possible.
I don't see any P-51 units involved in Husky but there were A-36 units but the P-51B isn't a suitable sub for the A-36
I think the Allies would have a pretty tough fight to maintain the beach head. Ordnance available on the island for ground attack should reflect the limited supply situation while off of Sicily the allies would have a very good supply situation. The Axis would have a good supply situation on Sicily and ordnance should reflect that.
If this sound reasonable I'll work up a base listing with aircraft.
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Roll with it Dawger...looks good to me. Since it's Fudgums turn to run a setup, it will be up to him whether it runs this coming week.
Here's some screenshots to work with if you need them:
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/405468/AH%20Stuff/Screen%20Shots/ahss38.bmp)
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/405468/AH%20Stuff/Screen%20Shots/ahss40.bmp)
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/405468/AH%20Stuff/Screen%20Shots/ahss39.bmp)
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I like the setup :aok A lot of discussion, about the map and settings that should be ironed out first. I would like to see a version of this soon, but I don't think that we can continue to do full blown untested new setups. There are folks that have to digest everything, work out the bugs, and get it approved. Not the other way around. I have been suggesting a one day mini frame, where we are able to run tests for potential new setups. This gives folks a day to look forward to if they like surprises, and want to support a particular idea.
I don't see any P-51 units involved in Husky but there were A-36 units but the P-51B isn't a suitable sub for the A-36
:headscratch: Umm, why not?
(http://www.military.cz/usa/air/war/bomber/a36/a36d.gif)
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The Apache is almost 70mph SLOWER than the 51-B. Could it be the equivalant of requiring a Typhoon, but subbing it with a Tempest in a 1943 time frame? :)
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Good point MrFork. Actually, I fly the Typhoon much more often than the Tempest and the characteristics that I am more impressed with rather than speed is handling in turns. Another issue that we don't talk about much is the fuel burn rate and close distance to fights. I will take my near empty Thunderbolt any day over a fully loaded Tempest. Let's see who hits the dirt first. I brought that up because the way that we fly these 109s and Jugs and such, is like the fuel used in the AvA has Viagra in it. Performance is greatly benefited for longer periods of time.
Warning: If your Tempest is up for more than 4 hrs. seek mechanical assistance immediately
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Here is the screen shot of Sicily for the start. It basically represents July 18, 1943.
(https://home.comcast.net/~micelihouston/husky%20sicily.jpg)
If you want the arena table for the fields it is here (https://home.comcast.net/~micelihouston/husky4.fld)
All the fields in Italy and Corsica would be Rishop. All North Africa Rook.
I'll work on asset placement later and can send you the arena tables if you like.
Anyone have a arena variable table for AvA they can send me?
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I don't see any P-51 units involved in Husky but there were A-36 units but the P-51B isn't a suitable sub for the A-36
P-40E comes darn close and would be better substitute
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He said 70 mph slower than the Pony B, not 170 mph slower :D
Let's consider the amount of bang we are getting for our buck ( $15 more accurately phrased). Do we want a hangar queen, because it's engine is equivalent in power, or do we want a more accurate visual representation, that will make for a more evenly matched fight?
Okay say we go the route of the power plant, we are excluding the lamina flow wing design of the A-36 which was the ice breaker in terms of technology.
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He said 70 mph slower than the Pony B, not 170 mph slower :D
Let's consider the amount of bang we are getting for our buck ( $15 more accurately phrased). Do we want a hangar queen, because it's engine is equivalent in power, or do we want a more accurate visual representation, that will make for a more evenly matched fight?
Okay say we go the route of the power plant, we are excluding the lamina flow wing design of the A-36 which was the ice breaker in terms of technology.
The big difference was the A-36 wasn't supercharged. The P40E is very close in performance to the A-36 and was actually present during Husky.
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With the given fuel burn rate in the AvA, all the planes are surpercharged. Well, plan all you want. I like the map at least. The result will be P38 vs 109 G6 and C205. The occassional Spit V and 190 will be thrown in there.
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The issue of fuel burn is always an interesting one.
On the surface the compression of the map horizontally would make increasing the fuel burn rate obvious.
But that doesn't account for the lack of compression vertically. Of course, at the altitudes most in AH fly the vertical issue is largely irrelevant. Large increases in fuel burn, large enough to affect long range American fighters significantly adversely impair the short range Axis and British fighters unreasonably. The end result is the Axis flies around their own airfields waiting for the fight to come to them when the fuel burn modifier is set too high.
The only real solution is a fuel modifier setting for each aircraft type but imagine the howls that would cause.
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Hey Dawger, you got that write up ready?
Don't sweat the tables and stuff...just write down how you want it and let's see if we can get it run next week.
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The map has several distinct geographic areas.
Italy, Sicily, Corsica, Sardinia, Tunisia, Malta and Valletta.
Here is how I would place aircraft and vehicles for each geographic area.
Jeep for both sides at all fields
Italy-Axis
Airfields-Ju88, Ju87, 109G6, 190A5,C202, C205
Vehicle- Panzer, Tiger
Ports-Panzer, Tiger
Italy-Allied
Airfields-P40B, P40E, Hurricane IIC, Spit V
Vehicle- Sherman
Ports-Sherman
Sicily-Axis
Airfields-Ju87, 109G6, 190A5,C202, C205
Vehicle- Panzer, Tiger
Ports-Panzer, Tiger
Sicily-Allied
Airfields-P40B, P40E, Hurricane IIC, Spit V
Vehicle- Sherman
Ports-Sherman
Tunisia-Axis
Airfields-109G6, 190A5,C202, C205
Vehicle- Panzer, Tiger
Ports-Panzer, Tiger
Tunisia-Allied
Airfields-B17G, A-20, B25C, B-25H,B26, Boston, P38G, P40B, P40E, Hurricane IIC, Spit V
Vehicle- Sherman
Ports-Sherman
Malta-Axis
Airfields-109G6, 190A5,C202, C205
Vehicle- Panzer, Tiger
Ports-Panzer, Tiger
Malta-Allied
Airfields-A-20, B25C,B26, Boston, P38G, P40B, P40E, Hurricane IIC, Spit V
Vehicle- Sherman
Ports-Sherman
Valleta-Axis
Airfields-109G6, 190A5,C202, C205
Vehicle- Panzer, Tiger
Ports-Panzer, Tiger
Valleta-Allied
Airfields-A-20, B25C,B26, Boston, P38G, P40B, P40E, Hurricane IIC, Spit V
Vehicle- Sherman
Ports-Sherman
Sardinia-Axis
Airfields-Ju88, Ju87, 109G6, 190A5,C202, C205
Vehicle- Panzer, Tiger
Ports-Panzer, Tiger
Sardinia-Allied
Airfields-P40B, P40E, Hurricane IIC, Spit V
Vehicle- Sherman
Ports-Sherman
Corsica and Northern Italy don't really need any planes or vehicles enabled as the fight should be no where near there but Corsica would mirror Sardinia if it was desired to put the aircaft everywhere.
My only question is the C-47. If the Axis push the Allies back into the sea the C-47 should be somewhere to allow the Allied to get back on the island. Either the CM would have to just reset the arena in this case because that is technically a victory for the Axis or the C47 could be put at A25 in Tunisia, allowing the allies the ability to create another airborne assault as was the case on July 10, 1943 but not so close that folks are flying C-47's to capture bases in Italy.
The other question is settings that allow for base capture but make it hard for one person to do it by themselves. I think everyone here frowns upon the army of one capturing bases. My preferred method of achieving this used to be upping the number of troops required to the point the base reopened before a single player could possibly deliver enough troops to capture. This, of course, requires suitable down times
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Hey Dawger, you got that write up ready?
Don't sweat the tables and stuff...just write down how you want it and let's see if we can get it run next week.
When do you want the write up?
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If your allied planeset is lacking, you might include the Seafire as a sub for a Spit5C, because it has the 240 rounds of hispano but otherwise has identical performance charts to AH's spit5b.
Naturally it's not exactly the same, a bit heavier, but if folks want choice it might be a better option against the 109s.
P.S. Chilli the Pony really is not related to the A-36 Apache, in any way. It looks the same, but when they put that Merlin engine it, it became a totally different plane. It's like comparing an F4F to an F4U. The P-40E is really a good match. The top speeds are almost identical and the FTH is about the same alt. A-36 top speed was 365 mph at about 15k or so. Check the charts for AH's P-40E. You might be surprised.
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The map has several distinct geographic areas.
One of the things to remember about all setups is that you do have to provide for the third country. All AH2 maps require that three countries be present, so you try to squirrel the odd guys off into a corner somewhere. Because: some wag will often wander into the arena, capture the "neutral" country's base and/or capital, and instantly pork the map (even though he probably thought he was just about to win the war).
I mention this only because I've found it more difficult to do on the Italy map.
- oldman
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Thanks Krusty and all. I have been looking over the comparison charts. I actually fly the P40 against much wider performance gaps in the MA. I have also seen this setup before with the planesets. When it gets played out in the arena P40s will simply be a hangar queen. Fine by me.
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One of the things to remember about all setups is that you do have to provide for the third country. All AH2 maps require that three countries be present, so you try to squirrel the odd guys off into a corner somewhere. Because: some wag will often wander into the arena, capture the "neutral" country's base and/or capital, and instantly pork the map (even though he probably thought he was just about to win the war).
I mention this only because I've found it more difficult to do on the Italy map.
- oldman
I saw that the strats in northern italy and the city on corsica stayed knight so I was planning on making all of Corsica and the northern half of Italy knight for the neutral country to avoid any weirdness.
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I saw that the strats in northern italy and the city on corsica stayed knight so I was planning on making all of Corsica and the northern half of Italy knight for the neutral country to avoid any weirdness.
if you did that, is there anyway to make certian bases and/or Capital/HQ for the neutral country "uncapturable"...... to prevent the Arena/ The Map from becoming porked???....
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if you did that, is there anyway to make certian bases and/or Capital/HQ for the neutral country "uncapturable"...... to prevent the Arena/ The Map from becoming porked???....
I'm brand new at this, but there doesn't seem to be a capture or no capture setting, You can harden object settings or require a ridiculous number of troops to make bases virtually uncapturable, but they seem to be all or nothing settings, IE: you can't change variables for one country alone.
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You can harden object settings or require a ridiculous number of troops to make bases virtually uncapturable
Note that this would also prevent captures among the fields you WANT capturable. It's not country-specific.
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Note that this would also prevent captures among the fields you WANT capturable. It's not country-specific.
Exactly.
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I'm brand new at this, but there doesn't seem to be a capture or no capture setting, You can harden object settings or require a ridiculous number of troops to make bases virtually uncapturable, but they seem to be all or nothing settings, IE: you can't change variables for one country alone.
He's brand new but he's a gifted learner. The above statement is correct. In addition, you can't make any one base more difficult to capture than the others (except the HQs - and the setting governs all three countries' HQs).
- oldman
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if you did that, is there anyway to make certian bases and/or Capital/HQ for the neutral country "uncapturable"...... to prevent the Arena/ The Map from becoming porked???....
The easiest way to prevent this in this particular setup is to just not enable troop carrying vehicles anywhere near the neutral bases.
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I'm brand new at this, but there doesn't seem to be a capture or no capture setting, You can harden object settings or require a ridiculous number of troops to make bases virtually uncapturable, but they seem to be all or nothing settings, IE: you can't change variables for one country alone.
Yes there is. I used it when I did the Campaign Series stuff. The map guys need to feed a file to Skuzzy, you just tell them what bases you don't want to be captured and then you turn it on in the arena settings. Puts the red square around the base and you can't take it.
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Yes there is. I used it when I did the Campaign Series stuff. The map guys need to feed a file to Skuzzy, you just tell them what bases you don't want to be captured and then you turn it on in the arena settings. Puts the red square around the base and you can't take it.
Really, what sort of file do we need to send .fld?
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Jimson I don't know what the file is. When I was on the AvA staff I also had access to the map guy's forum, I asked in there if it was possible and they and Skuzzy figured it out. I forget exactly who was helping me, I think it was one of the 68th guys. I would tell them what map I was going to run and then they would create some file and send it to Skuzzy for me. I never directly did it. If any of the staffers have access to the map guy's forum look back for my posts.
It is also a great tool to keep some bases static so to always insure a close fight for the furballers, but still allow base capture.
For how easy it seemed, I'm surprised it's not used more often. But maybe some things have changed with the new releases??
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Dux is a good guy to get in touch with too. I'm pretty sure he knows how to get it done.
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Yes there is. I used it when I did the Campaign Series stuff. The map guys need to feed a file to Skuzzy, you just tell them what bases you don't want to be captured and then you turn it on in the arena settings. Puts the red square around the base and you can't take it.
Thanks Bug, I was sure their was a way to make it possible, but could not put my finger on it exactly, when I typed that post....
and Dux, I believe is the one who brought it to my attention 3 or 4 years ago when he was redesigning/updating the Training Arena for us the 2nd time around if memory serves.... we fixing to be having our 4th update to the Training Arena soon..... thanks to HTC getting the new Terrain Editor out to the Terrain Staff at end of last month......
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It is also a great tool to keep some bases static so to always insure a close fight for the furballers, but still allow base capture.
For how easy it seemed, I'm surprised it's not used more often. But maybe some things have changed with the new releases??
well maybe some things have changed, but sometimes the information or certain tricks of the trade are forgotten to be handed down, happens in all areas of any type of passing/handing down skill/knowledge
when I first became a sheet metal mech, you valued your job, you would be very limited in what you passed along to your helper or assistant, for fear of being bumped by a cheaper worker...... best way I thought to do it was learn more than anyone else in my field, then moved to other fields in the same industry and learn more than anyone, then move to another..... that way I became indispensable and highly sought after...
sorry for the side track down memory lane...... these last couple of post made me think about it..... you know, being disabled nowadays and unable to work in RL, I still read up on all new technology in all my fields of work I did, and still keep my energy analysis software updated, my cad programs updated and still have people calling me that I met 20 yrs ago asking me for my input on something...... heck they email me pictures or video, and ask me what would I do or how would I go about solving their problem....... crap am doing it again... ( that memory lane stuff )
:cheers: