Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Dowding on December 13, 2000, 02:45:00 PM
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Ok, my computer is not very good, so I'm going to get another. But I'm not buying a system, I'm instead going to build one from scratch. Probable specs:
Athlon 1.2 T-bird
Abit KT-133 Raid MB
256 Mb 133Mhz RAM
46 Gb UDMA100 HD
Prophet II Pro 64 Mb
Basically, I remember reading once that having more than 128 Mb actually SLOWS your computer down (since there is more memory to address). Anyone know if this is true with modern systems?
I've looked into the cooling aspect of the PC, and I little concerned that I might not get enough fans for the set-up. Basically, I know that a fan is needed for the CPU (and one comes with the Prophet) - do I need another for the case? Or maybe two case fans?
Does anyone have any tips on building a PC, like things to avoid? I bought 'Building a PC for Dummies', but it wasn't particularly enlightning.
Thanks for any help, I'm very grateful. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Youve got a good plan there. As for your cooling issues, i go by the motto: "Too much air is never a bad thing" Do some research on CPU fans.. most stock cpu fans blow chuncks.. you'll want at least a dual fan heatsink unit. also i run an additional 2 case fans + the power supply fan. depends on the case u buy how many fans you cn mount... u can also leave the case siding off if you dont have kids or pets to get in there. no matter if u have an open case or close siding.. u should dust at least every 2 months or so.
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WarChild
VMF-323 ~Death Rattlers~
"Where's the Charmin!"
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Buy the best pc133 Ram you can afford, make sure it test's out to a minimum of 150 fsb in CAS 2 setting. ABIT makes a great board, you made a fine choice there. Also, look around for BIOS install guides for the board you are using. They will give you tested BIOS setting so you dont have the rack your brain finding the right settings yourself. Please make sure you have a huge case, the bigger the better and a 400 watt power supply minimum. The best part of building your own system is you know what you have in it and can always upgrade for a pittance of the cost. Have fun and if you have any questions let me know, I have built four of them now.
Cleaner
P.S. You can never have enough fans.... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Cleaner (edited 12-13-2000).]
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Just built my first a couple of weeks ago, it basicaly was alot easier than I expected.
Here's a few links; http://www.coolerguys.com/ (http://www.coolerguys.com/)
http://www.heatsink-guide.com/ (http://www.heatsink-guide.com/)
http://www.madonion.com/performance/ (http://www.madonion.com/performance/)
http://www.tweakfiles.com/ (http://www.tweakfiles.com/)
http://www.tomshardware.com/ (http://www.tomshardware.com/)
[This message has been edited by Camel (edited 12-13-2000).]
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This is how I made alot of money, building Comstom PC's for people who wanted what in affect is a personal arcade, people get really sick of having all that extra crap dell and gateway puts on their machines. I would never buy a "clone" form any of them places, building yer own is the way to go.
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nm that 128mb ram crap
128mb ram gonna be recommended minimum any day now....
IMO you can never have enough, and its soo damn cheap now... remember the last price hike?! ouch!!
AKSKurj
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The Athlon is a GREAT choice. You will have one major problem though. The 1.2 Gig has a heat dissipation requirement of 72Watts! The prophet Geforce 2 is probably another 50+ watts. (72 Watts is more than a standard light bulb consumes.) You will need to buy a top of the line heatsink and fan for the Athlon. Check out the new heatsink article on Tom's Hardware guide: www.tomshardware.com (http://www.tomshardware.com)
(Be very careful when installing the heatsink and fan on an athlon thunderbird, you can bust it if you aren't careful.)
You MOST DEFINATELY need a case fan. I'd even add extra fans and a 300W power supply is a must. Make sure you get a good (Athlon Certified) one. Antec and Sparkle are two good brands I've used before on systems I've built.
I've found a great little solution to the GeForce2 with Athlon systems heat problems is a slot fan. These fans can mount in the slot right below your AGP slot. They cost about $20 and will dramatically lower the temperature inside your system and of your video card.
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Thanks for the advice guys! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I guess some of you probably charge by the hour for the advice you've offered. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I thought about waiting for the Pentium 4 price to come down, but it's still likely to be too expensive for the performance trade off. The Pentium 4 motherboard also needs a special case and power supply, which are selling at stupid prices over here at the moment.
I'm terrified of building a machine that costs so much, only to smell that tell-tale smoke after a few minutes. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Guess I'll have to have more noise if I'm going to cool the whole thing down.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 12-14-2000).]
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I'm one of those who are concerned with heat in the puter box. Shortly after I got my current system I put my hand on top of the box and was surprised how warm it was. After that I opened the side panel and put a small (6") fan about 2 feet away and blowing into the open box. No problems with heat any more. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mav
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Hehehe Mav. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I've found the perfect case - I've asked them to include a 300W PSU to a Chenbro Blando (full tower), with a 6cm fan and an 8cm fan built into it. The Athlon will be cooled by an AMD approved fan.
Including the fan on the MB and the Prophet II, that's FIVE fans in one box! Maybe six including the PSU fan. I hope it isn't too loud! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Strap props to those fans and you have a flying superfortress with escorts (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.geocities.com/nirfurian/stSanta.jpg)
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I have a t-bird 1.1ghz system, and got a fop38 heatsink for it.
It works great. Before the FOP, my cpu would heat up to about 43C under high stress, now it generally doesn't go above 33C or so.
Also used arctic silver cooling compound on the cpu to help transfer heat to the heat sink. The reviews say it can help reduce another few C.
Bought 2 7200rpm fans to put on the back of the case, to help cooling (got a case that doesn't have much for ventilation). They're awful loud, but they do a great job at cooling.
I've been able to clock my processor to 1.25ghz, but its too unstable. Actually, it starts to get unstable above 1.1ghz. I think it has to do with other factors (memory maybe).
I also have a hercules geforce2 ultra, and have clocked that to 275/490. I might get a blue orb for it (tho it seems to have a good heatsink now, and its blue, not sure if its as good as a blue orb).
In AH, at 16x12x32 I get around 40-70fps. down to 20 in heavy smoke. Not much noticable slowdown in large bomber formations.
Heres the specs:
t-bird 1.1ghz w/global win fop38 heat sink
abit kt7 (non raid)
hercules 3d prophet2 ultra
256megs PC133(NEC)
40gig maxtor 7200rpm HD
among some other things (sound, network)
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Guys,..cooling a computer is a science. More fans do not equal better cooling and can actually serve to create dead spots in the case.
The best way to prevent a cooling problem is too make sure the CFM matches the incoming and outgoing rates of the fans in your computer.
If you have too much outgoing air, you create a negative pressure in the case, which can create dead air spots, and also creates air that will not dissipate heat as quickly as zero pressure air.
If you have too much incoming air, and not enough outgoing, you create a positive pressure case, which is the worst, as the air then dissipates less, and can generate more heat in areas of the case.
Simple solution. If the fan is to be used for pulling air in or pushing air out of the case, then make sure the CFM ratings all add up to cancel each other out.
So if you have a 600 cfm intake fan and only a 300 cfm exhaust fan, you better make sure there is openings in the case to allow at least 300 cfm of air to flow or your case will be pressurized.
Component fans do not effect the equation much, unless there is insufficient areas around the component to allow the air to flow at the rated cfm of the component fan.
Hope this helps.
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Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
President, AppLink Corp.
http://www.applink.net
skuzzy@applink.net
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Two points:
1 - Memory: 256 MB is now less than £100 from MicroDirect
2 - Do think about the noise level. Go to QuietPC for a whisper PSU and fan
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qts
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Man you dont need all them fans that one dude talking about, just the normal cooling stuff will do , i've been tweaking puters since I twas a child of 11 unless your crank the cpu up any cooling problems you will have will come from your pci/isa layout as in how you lay your additional boards out in the box get a fat board so the spacing is greater and keep the video to a single fat AGP board none of that dual stuff & stick a 5 dollar cpu fan on the side of your pci line by using a hole saw and a couple of cheap screws to hold it in place if ya paranoid about heat. forget dat 20 fans in the freakin box bs,only if you crank up the v's and x's on your chip/board do you worry about heating. even then i've got chips running at 163% with just the box open and no problem for months now. If you gonna have a heating problem it will come out in the first 20 mins you burn your system in. So only a pwrsup/fan and frontbox fan will do the job fine and a port potfan if ya paranoid. or spend 25 bucks for a stupid pci slot fan with 1/2 the flow rate and worse yet it draws really crappy across the board. (we tested it with cool smoke to ck the flow pattern)
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I have just updated my machine to
Athlon 1.1Ghz
Abit KT7-RAID + STD heatsink
2x128MB Crucial cas2 RAM (www.crucial.com/uk)
Voodoo 5 5500
SB Live Platinum
2x46.1GB IBM Deskstar in RAID 0
I got all (except RAM) from microdirect in manchester. A box shifting outfit, but the prices were very good and the tech support (when I finally got through) was informed.
A good web site for bios type info is available by going to www.abit.nl>FAQ>KT7_RAID>very (http://www.abit.nl>FAQ>KT7_RAID>very) bottom link.
The two ram dimms give better performance than 1 256MB dimm.
You will need to flash your board with the latest Abit rom KT7_UL at the moment. Also download the latest VIA 4in1 driver set.
I had significant stability problems untill I used the bios and 4in1 update.
Now I get 75fps (flying around) and 50+ worst case.
As far as cooling goes I get 49 Celcius under extreme load. About 35-39 after playing AH for a couple of hours.
Well worth the effort.
Grayarea.
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at the expense of being obvious and I hope you havent started yet so I hope this isnt brought up to late, be sure before u even get close to opening or moving any electrical gear that you have a well grounded static wrist strap, u can discharge ESD and not even feel it and your cpu, sound card etc. is toast do not underestimate ESD, I have worked in component engineering and have to often seen the results of " I only forgot to put the strap on once"
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Thanks for all the info, guys. I hadn't checked back here for ages, but I'm glad I did! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I haven't started building it yet - I am tempted to wait until Abit builds a MB that accepts DDR RAM or AMD brings out its next generation of CPUs (1.4/1.5 GHz).
Then again, whatever I buy will be out of date in 6 months. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I've downloaded some info from AMD about case design (and you're right Skuzzy, it really is a science (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)), so hopefully by next months pay day, I can start making a few purchases.
Thanks again guys, much appreciated.
<edit>
BTW, AMD recommend just having case fans that PULL the air out of the case at the back, and just good sized vents at the front. This coupled with an approved PSU (which pulls air from beneath it and out) should make sure I have no heating problems.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 12-27-2000).]
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Wow - didn't know it was so important to type like some minority here now.
A few points - some repeated from good posts above...
Fans *are* important and more is better regardless of what Putz says. More air through the box means a lower temperature in the box. Lower temperature air in the box means a larger temperature gradient across the heatsinks and into the air. Heat flows faster and parts run cooler. Lower temperature parts means fewer errors, lockups, and longer reliable lifetime. All facts - plain and simple.
Matching air in and out of the box is good practice - I wouldn't have all fans facing out unless you have a huge hole somewhere to allow air in. The more air that has to find its way into the box, the more dust that will fall out and screw up your CD-ROM drive, floppy drive, etc.
It's also good practice to plan the airflow. I have exhaust fans at the top and intake fans and holes near the bottom of my case. Since heat tends to rise, the chimney effect just helps cooling be all the more effective.
Attention spent on card placement is also important. Don't sandwich power hungry cards like the hot graphics CPUs between other cards or away from air flows. Also a good idea is to leave a slot cover or two off the backplane area to help let cool outside air in right under the hot cards, over other heat sinks, or near the CPU. You can use other cards to help channel the airflow where you want it.
I've even got two small exhaust fans discreetly mounted to the top outside of my monitor to help get the heat out of that. You can drive away the winter chill on most monitors but the case of mine stays room temperature. I've been doing this for years and have never had a monitor failure.
Cooling is an important issue. Anyone who really has been overclocking and tweaking since he was a child would know that. Properly-channeled forced air cooling is way the heck better than case-open convection. It's just no contest. It's best to throw everything at the problem as the lower the temperature of the parts, the better off you will be and the more reliable your system.
It's also important to make sure there is a proper thermal connection between CPU and heat sink. In the plastic and ceramic package CPU days, it was easy to goop it up with thermal grease. Now there are various thermally-conductive foams and indium foils that are used. Always good to double check that this very important component of cooling is properly in place.
My brother bought a computer that kept locking up and dying on him after it had been on for a while. Turns out some idiot at the shop had been sticking the paper warranty label on the CPU - actually insulating the CPU from the heatsink and creating a dead air space over the rest of the CPU surface.
And it is important to get in and dust occasionally. Lots of air through the box means more dust that will try to plate out on heat sinks, chips and such. Any dust layers dramatically reduce cooling efficiency and need to be cleared out every now and then. I use spray duster to blow the case and power supply out every now and then and it does throw up a cloud.
I've got a few thermistors sprinkled around my box (ASUS motherboard supports multidrop temperature reporting) and my system runs cool. It's also a very reliable system - I am quite sure because of that and in spite of being overclocked.
And Tyro is ever so right! All this hot new hardware is susceptible to static. Always ground frequently and best to not work over carpet or on days where you are constantly throwing static sparks. Wrist straps need to be the actual static dissipation variety with high resistance. (Hooking yourself up to ground with just a wire is bad practice and a quick way to die.)
All of that without a single "dat", "dude", "fat", or "freakin". And I even used paragraphs and punctuation. Wow.
[This message has been edited by Renfield (edited 12-28-2000).]
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I didn't build one myself because i had to buy a complete system (so i could pay with my days from work) . I just went to a liitle electronic store. They build the pc on demand
no dell or compaq (still selling with pc100 ram) My ahtlon 1g sits on a Aopen Ak-33 mb
i have a geforce 6800 ddr in it and 256 mb pc133 ram. As far now it works very stable having a average framerate about 50 and 60 flying around (limited by my monitor 60hz)
carriers give me around 35 (take off)
smoke 20
standing inside smoke 6 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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We are airplane buffs here PPL!!!!!!!
so what if you boxs sounds like a flight of P-51s departing, Mine does. As long at it can produce a steady 60 frames per second and doesnt cook any expensive hardware I am one happy mofo.
You can never have too much cooling but opening a case tend to invite bunnies of the dust variety to live in your box and they do nothing positive to your boxes cooling abilities
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Originally posted by Dowding:
Probable specs:
Athlon 1.2 T-bird
Abit KT-133 Raid MB
256 Mb 133Mhz RAM
46 Gb UDMA100 HD
Prophet II Pro 64 Mb
Nice system spec's ... not much I can add to the other posts. One note, make sure you get 2X 20G drives rather than 1X 40G other wise you can't use that tasty RAID setup.
As far as extra fans go, don’t go overboard. 1 or 2 case fans are a good idea to keep the air moving on a high end system but adding more is just going to make it noisy. I have a single 120mm case fan running at 7V instead of 12V, still moves lots of air and is quieter than the smaller units running at full speed. This setup in a mid tower case has done well for my overclocking so far (Celeron 300A @ 504, Cel 633 @ 950)
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Hi All,
Having noticed that cooling seem to be very high up the list in the must have stakes have you seen this little baby?
http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/00q4/001103/vapochill-01.html (http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/00q4/001103/vapochill-01.html)
Some serious overclocking possible with this one. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
TTFN
snafu
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Dowding, I wouldn't suggest forking over the extra cash for the RAID MB over a regular one. Unless you plan on getting another hard drive of equal size or making 2 partitions on both drives equal it would be a waste...but thats just me and I like to save $5 wherever I can. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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===>Frosty
====>Exposure2k.com
=====>Frosty@exposure2k.com
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One note on the RAID MB worth noting.. the new Athlon is going to have a 266FSB. So consider on getting a MSI K7T Pro 2-A which in fact does support the new 266FSB.
Also, note that the DDR memory supported boards are soon to come out in mass with DDR memory dropping in price weekly.
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Good point creamo, but here in the UK I doubt that DDR MBs will be here for a while yet.
Athlon 1.2 GHz CPUs are in short supply and we always get things a couple of months after the States.
I think I'm going to wait it out for a month or so and see how the pricing goes. I'd like a 1.4 GHz Athlon too. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Latest test results show that KT133A (note the A) boards are so close to DDR boards in performance that DDR does makes a very bad price/quality ratio machine.. There were absolutely no real benefits in a gaming machine, just a lot higher price.
Secondly, that vapochill box absolutely rocks.. it can freeze ur cpu to -20C and give an awesome overclock. As a nifty addition its whisper quiet.. no noisy fans boomin around your computer room. Only downside is the price.. You get a low-end computer for the price of the case heheh =)
I dont know about you folks, but I absolutely hate the screaming of fast-rpm fans. If I had the $ I'd go for vapochill.
Now I'm stuck with my Cel667@950 (only Titan Majesty GORB cooler btw..) system temp 37-40C at high load. (Running seti@home)
- MrSiD
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That makes interesting reading MrSid. The KT-7A RAID looks pretty good.
I'd go out and buy the setup tomorrow if AMD could supply enough 1.2 GHz processors for the UK market! Most places have been out of stock for a couple of months.
I'd like to wait for the new generation of AMD CPUs, but that looks a fair way off yet.
Thanks for the info.