Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Karnak on March 21, 2000, 03:04:00 PM
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Here are the total scores and kill ratios for each aircraft in Tour 2. I calculated the kill ratios by taking the Plane Type against Any (which means all other planes) and then dividing the number of kills by the number of deaths. I then rounded the result to the nearest hundredth.
Make your own judgement about the results, but I think they speak for themselves.
The F4U-1C has 8839 kills and has been killed 4411 times. 2.00 to 1
The Bf 109G-6 has 959 kills and has been killed 761 times. 1.26 to 1
The Fw 190A-8 has 1761 kills and has been killed 1472 times. 1.20 to 1
The Bf 109G-10 has 2876 kills and has been killed 2492 times. 1.15 to 1
The P-51D has 4757 kills and has been killed 4334 times. 1.10 to 1
The C.205 has 2175 kills and has been killed 2122 times. 1.02 to 1
The Spitfire Mk IX has 9111 kills and has been killed 8998 times. 1.01 to 1
The N1K2 has 3704 kills and has been killed 3686 times. 1.00 to 1
The P-38L has 6076 kills and has been killed 6287 times. 0.97 to 1
The Bf 109G-2 has 475 kills and has been killed 507 times. 0.94 to 1
The La-5FN has 755 kills and has been killed 881 times. 0.86 to 1
The Spitfire Mk V has 5618 kills and has been killed 6663 times. 0.84 to 1
The B-26B has 1716 kills and has been killed 2481 times. 0.69 to 1
The Bf 109F-4 has 290 kills and has been killed 434 times. 0.67 to 1
The F4U-1D has 361 kills and has been killed 549 times. 0.66 to 1
The B-17G has 910 kills and has been killed 1731 times. 0.53 to 1
The C-47A has 173 kills and has been killed 1529 times. 0.11 to 1
Now that you've looked them over, I'll say what I think.
Something is either over-modeled about the F4U-1C or it shouldn't be included in the current plane set. Having a 0.74 greater kill rate than its nearest competitor certainly points to it as being the Ubėr-plane, bar none. I feel that either there should be: A) an Ubėr-plane for each nations plane set, or better yet: B) NO UBĖR-PLANES at all.
If course A is followed, then we should get our Ta-152s (like the F4U-1C it saw insignificant or no combat), Spitfire Mk F.21s (like the F4U-1C it saw insignificant or no combat), A7M3 Reppus (like the F4U-1C it saw insignificant or no combat) and the Russian and Italian equivalents.
If course B is followed (unlikely) then the F4U-1C should be removed until the Korean War theatre becomes available.
Just my 2 cents.
Sisu
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 03-21-2000).]
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<Ripsnort pulls up a chair, waits for Torque , Cannon, and other "One-plane Wonders" to show up to light the fire for the BBQ>
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Ripsnort(-rip1-)
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~ XO
Aces High Training Corps
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/ripsnort.jpg)
"Some people are only alive because it is illegal to shoot them."
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 03-21-2000).]
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Heh. Toast away guys. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Sisu
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really get rid of it preferably cant figure out how a ground attack plane handles like a zeke almost to 150 kn
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Sigh.
Lets put some things into perspective.
I want to go on a patrol mission for bombers. I decide to patrol the nw border. I load up an F4u-1c with a drop tank and 100% fuel and fly away. Eventually, I encounter the inevitable bomber and take him out. I'm down to 100% fuel by now. I'm also at 30k.
The patrol mission is pretty much over, but I see we are re-taking a field. I didn't have to use much ammo on the lone b-26 so I decide to drop and vulch when the "ack down" message appears. Nobody is defending the field except for one pilot. Any guesses as to what he is flying? You got it.. a spit. I vulch the same lone pilot at a base 8 times. That's and 8:0 record against the spit 9 in one sortie. Does that make the F4u-1C an uberplane?
I notice that one of our fields is being attacked. I decide that it would take too long to spawn from a nearby field and climb to alt in an F4u-1C, so I decide to come up at the base being attacked. Guess what I sellect? A spit. I get airborne and manage to down one of the attackers before being bounced by another... Unfortunately, the attacker does not immediately exit the aircraft. I was killed with a pilot kill. Now, my record in the spit that sortie: 0:1.
The Spit is the uber plane of the arena. Given equal terms on engagement, it can hold its own against any other aircraft. It has excellent lethality capabillities, an excellent turn rate, an excellent climb rate, and above average acceleration. If you make a mistake against one, you are dead.
People simply fly the Spit, when no other aircraft stands a chance. Unfortunately, in most of the situations.. as spit doesn't either.
A poll for those that love to vulch bases: 1) What plane do you do it in. 2) What plane do you shoot down most.
A poll for those that respawn frequently despite the odds to defend a base: 1) What plane do you chose most often. 2) What plane do you see vulching most often.
You don't use an F4u-1C to defend a base at low alt because it is a dog to fly low. Some can do it, but most cannot. You use the Spit, because it can do most everything better than the F4u-1C. If you don't believe this, then you are HO'ing F4's too much and need to refocus your strategy.
I fly the F4u-1C. I know what it can and can't do. It is not an uberplane. As a result, I have to be 10 times more carefull when I fly it. I select targets more carefully and make sure I keep as much alt and speed as possible. I am much more relaxed when I fly a Spit. You simply don't need to pay as much attention there.
AKDejaVu
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Obviously from the numbers the Spit is the most, or 2nd most common aircraft in the arena, the other is the F4U-1C.
The one possible flaw in your argument is that you say the F4U-1C can't fight down low, but you killed 8 Spits down there. Now I know you started with the energy, but by the 5th or 6th Spit you must have been running low or you would have given the launching Spit too much time to get set up.
Sisu
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 03-21-2000).]
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"sits down counts from 10 to 1 slowly"
never mind im going to be nice today (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
but i am for keeping the F4u-1c
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Hmmmm....
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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Ok, I'm really, really tired of discussions of F4U-C1. Each and everyone of them simply repeats the previous one...
I say, let those vulchers fly their beloved F4U-C1. Plane has nothing to offer, but its guns. When I see any F4U below me, it looks to me like a huge holiday turkey waiting for me to slice off a piece of it. I love gifts like this (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
mx22
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Karnak dosnt it strike you that the stastics you base your argument on have FwA8 and 109G6 as No 2 and 3?
Not that I'd mind a slight downgrade of the strongest guns mind you.
danish
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Danish, yes it does, but I was also noting how much of a drop they are from the number 1 position.
Sisu
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Ok is exactly right.
Karnak-- everytime he dives and makes a gun pass--He climbs back out and puts more "E" in the bank.. This the way a F4U should be flown. HOwever--the F4U had a great immediate turn rate at high speed. Mind you not a SUSTAINED turn rate. When ti gets slow it is a dog.
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AMMO
332nd Flying Mongrels (http://www.ropescourse.org/flying.htm)
without us the Air Force is just another scheduled Airlines
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Dump it,at the moment the F4U1c is unbalancing and adds nothing to the sim-except quakeish behavior. (I.E.-spray and pray H/O)
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If you think spit 9 is bad just wait till they make real 1944 spit (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Spitfire XIVe (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
If nothing makes you happier then burning 109 - come and join us - we're looking for few good men
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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The Hog is a pure HO/front aspect killing machine. Flown as a B&Z/E fighting platform it should rack up a great kill ratio. After all it's real world 11 to 1 kill ratio is 2nd best in WW2 among US planes. Combine that with the variety of lag/net issues and the way that the AH FE computes kills and the 1c is probably under where it should be statistically.
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The F4F Wildcat had a 5:1 kill ratio, with 4 or 6 .50's and a 330mph top end...
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Check my stats, been doing an experiment with the Hawg. My gunnery is 5%, pretty sucky, but check out my k/d, ranked 2nd I believe. Now check the different planes I have flown, the 1c is by far the best ratio. Only 2 or 3 sorties have been vulch fest, highest total was 11 i believe. Someone with 5% gunnery should have pretty avg stats, go back in the tours without the 1c. The guns only require 1 ping to do some serious damage, with my gunnery I dont have to actually perform much ACM just ping once and move on. Now If I switch to something else, say the 51 I cant rack up kills. I salute the deadly 109, 51 drivers. There is some real skill there, but IMHO the 1c is the uberdweeb ride, makes avg guys look good. This coming from someone who almost exclusively has flown it, IMHO it has to go.
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Dnil
902nd Immortal Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
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I don't think it is so much that the plane is an uber-plane. (Lol, what a word! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) ) I think it is the way in which it is used. Like others have said, it is a vulchers dream. Due to it's large ammo load and lethality, anyone who knows a vulch is going on will take an F4u-1c. As far as a dogfight goes, an F4u-1c is good only if you have a significant altitude advantage over your foe. If you don't have an altitude advantage, and your opponent is obviously no rookie, you only have a few options available: A. You can try to dive away from him and run to friendlies. B. You can attempt to fight, and probably lose. C. You can go for the head-on, and most probably both of you will die.
I fly the f4u-1c quite often (though not exclusively) and I rarely win a fight without having at least a 5k alt advantage, or a big speed advantage. Personally I don't believe that the f4u-1c is more dangerous than any other fighter, all have their strongpoints and weakpoints. The f4u-1c's strongpoints are: Rollrate, guns, toughness, and top speed. Its weakpoints are many: Climbrate, acceleration, sustained turning ability, and visibility. The f4u-1c is also easy prey for any p38's lurking at 35k, an altitude the f4u can barely reach.
Also, IMO, the k/d stats are of little value. Think about it: If you are defending a vulched base, what type of plane to you fly? Simple, you fly a spit, n1k, or c205. What is the plane that is vulching the base? Answer: F4u-1c, Fw190, or 109 with gondolas. Need more examples: What type of planes do newbies fly? IMO, most fly either a spit, or (who knows why) p51. The reason is that they are the easiest to fly. The f4u is generally flown by experienced pilots who understand the concepts of E fighting (i.e. BnZ). If a newbie takes up an f4u (assuming they can get it off the ground), is it likely that they will continue to use it once they realize that it's only true strength for TnB fighting is it's guns? Not likely IMHO.
I'm just waiting for the Typhoon to make it's appearence, along with ground vehicles. I'll bet that the f4u-1c usage drops quite severely. Why do I think that? Simple, ground vehicles will destroy planes that are vulching. Second, the Typhoon also has 4 20mm cannon. My guess is that we will see a role change for the f4u soon. It will become, along with the Typhoon and 190, primarily used for JABO purposes, and as a result, its K/D will drop.
These are all just my (rather lengthy) opinions of course, and should be taken as such.
bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
[This message has been edited by bloom25 (edited 03-21-2000).]
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IMHO
Excluding planes from the MA planeset is a big mistake. Only RPS can be worse.
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The only time I HATE the cannon Hog, is when im in a buff. You just dont get enough time on the trigger in range to kill it before he kills you in range.
range = 1000 yards
Maybe take 2 cannons away from it, leaving 2!
[This message has been edited by Camel (edited 03-21-2000).]
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Humble, the plane that had that kill rate historicly was the F4U-1D, armed with 6 .50 calibre machineguns. The F4U-1C is a fantasy aircraft, thats what I was saying at the top with my references to the Ta-152, Spitfire Mk F.21 and A7M3 Reppu, it saw combat in such limited numbers as to be insignificant.
Yet look at the kill rate of the F4U-1D here. Are you all saying that when people fly the F4U-1D that they don't boom and zoom with it? Why?
My personal favorite ride is the razorback Spitfire Mk XIV and I know that many here would love a Fw-190D-9. These would have much the same effect as the F4U-1C does now, yet when we brought the subject up we were roundly and soundly blasted for it, in no small part by the guys who mostly fly the F4U-1C.
I would rather have a sim in which there is no clearly "best" aircraft than have even my prefered ride added. Currently, it seems to me, the F4U-1C Corsair is clearly the best, and by a long shot, fighter.
If it were just the guns, then the N1K2 and Fw-190A-8 would also have favorable kill rates, yet neither comes even close to the F4U-1C.
It obviously isn't the F4U Corsair that people like, look at the numbers on the 1D, its the cannon that Corsairs didn't carry in WWII that people like.
Sisu
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 03-21-2000).]
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I've been whining about this bird since it was introduced. My complaint isn't about its lethality, but about its impact on the game relative to its impact on the war. There were so few built we aren't even sure if it was derived from the F4U-1D or from the F4U-1A, and there's a world of difference between the two.
I hope some day AH has historical arenas with realistic planesets, then the F4U-1C will not be an issue.
The more I fly AH lately, the more I long for planes like the G.50, I-16, D.520, Hawk 75, and the Buffalo. A 3-kill mission in an I-16 would be much more satisifying than any 10-kill vulchfest in the -1C. Well, not much more, but a little more. Or almost.
Ok, I love to vulch.
ra
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Originally posted by Karnak:
It obviously isn't the F4U Corsair that people like, look at the numbers on the 1D, its the cannon that Corsairs didn't carry in WWII that people like.
Yes to have a arms on a plane that was“nt used in WWII sux, it sux a big one.
It dos“nt matter wich angle or how impossible it looks, for the f4u c, to hit. It does and I am getting pretty tired of it.
Late war planes , ok, but this is actully a NON WWII CONFIGURATION. This is a after war plane.
I hope, because of this, that it s configuration will be altered in this planeset.
Crabofix, "fresh fish and alive seashells"
Svenska Kungliga Flygvapnet.
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Every once in a while I get really strange and think "I should grab a 1D", then I shake my head clear.
The thing about the 1C is that it ends the fight before it has a chance to begin, 98% of the time.
Interestingly, I approach these Monster Hogs like a lit stick of dynamite. Sort of exciting to have such lethality coming after you. I guess it drives me to be better. I love killing them.
Yeager
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 03-21-2000).]
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Youll forget all about it when the tiffy comes out. BTW. Me and that other one plane wonder were both higher up the food chain before the 1c was interduced.
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Said it before and I'll say it again ..it's not the plane it's the pilot.
A good pilot can make any plane look Uber.
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Mighty1
The New Baby Harp Seals
"Come try to club THIS Seal"
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The more I fly AH lately, the more I long for planes like the G.50, I-16, D.520, Hawk 75, and the Buffalo.
Hehe, and everyone would fly the D.520 because it has a Hispano! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Oddly enough, yesterday I read in a book on USN fighters that the pilots prefered the 6x.50's to the 4x20mm's... Why would pilots prefer the .50's?
How about the Lancaster gets four Hispano in the turrets? Then the bomber pilots will have revenge! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Historically, the 4x20s had slower ROF, carried fewer rounds and were prone to malfunction.
Yeager
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Ok take all the guns away so you whinner's will shut up leave the planes alone. Or go fly C47 around and site see. The -1C is a vulch king and it will get better when the flaps are fixed on it. (P51 will come alive then also) so lets start the whinning about that right now. Also the half track is coming so whine about that it will have the greatest kill stat in the game. You are talking about a plane that has to flown properly to get kills and counting vulch fest kills to add to your blind stupidity it does not unbalance the game the game is growing every month. Something else will come that can beat every thing here now and will hear whinning about it so start now pull the super plane now lets all get a kite and sling shot and go try to hit each other.
Lets stop these stupid post right now this is stupid. Pull the -1C pull all the cannons.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
1st Aces High Trainer Crew
Home of The Allied Fighter Wing A.F.W.
A.F.W. Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
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If course A is followed, then we should get our Ta-152s (like the F4U-1C it saw insignificant or no combat), Spitfire Mk F.21s (like the F4U-1C it saw insignificant or no combat), A7M3 Reppus (like the F4U-1C it saw insignificant or no combat) and the Russian and Italian equivalents
Ahhhhh YES! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Bring the Fiat G.56 to AH!
- 3x20mm
- Daimler-Benz 603A with 1,750hp
- max speed 425mph
Gatt
4^Stormo CT
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) Reading my post over, it does seem a little negative. That was not my intention, and it was certainly not my intention to make it seem like a flame to Karnak. It was simply meant to state my opinion on the subject, hence the line at the end that it is only my opinion and should be taken as such. The truth is, Karnak, that you are right in many ways. The f4u-1c is probably easier to get kills in than some of the other planes. IMO, however, it is not quite the uber-plane it is made out to be. It does have many weaknesses, and respecting the power of it's guns, it isn't too hard to defeat if you can avoid a front quarters engagement with one. If you get on the 6 of an f4, the f4 drivers only option is to run and extend, just like the p51. I honestly have no explaination for the low k/d of the f4u-1d, except for the fact that it is fighting air to air mainly (versus vulching).
You are right about numbers produced though, only about 200 were made, but nearly all saw combat in the PTO. (It was actually produced after production of the f4u-1d began.) For some reason the US decided to stick with the .50 cal. I personally don't know the reason why, perhaps the common use of .50 by every other US fighter made supply of ammunition easier to obtain. My own guess is that 4 20mm was simply overkill for the type of aircraft that the f4 was engaging in the Pacific. It could have also been due to the fact that the f4u-4 was released soon after the f4u-1c, and producing 2 different models was inefficient. (Another possiblility is that .50 cal is more destructive than it is here in AH.) Whatever the reason is, I don't believe it will matter so much once we get other new planes added to the planeset. (Didn't Pyro say a while back that HTC is working on a way to implement new fighters without unbalancing the planeset??? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/confused.gif) )
I personally say leave the f4u-1c in, and lets see what happens in the next few versions.
Once again, I apolgize for the angry tone of my previous post.
bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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I think the statistical dominance of the most heavily armed airplane should make it obvious that armament is over-emphasized in this sim due to a faulty gunnery model.
Quite simply, 4 x 20mm should not be that much more effective than 6 x 50 cal.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-22-2000).]
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Having been on the receiving end of a 1-C lead shower more times than I would like, I can understand the many objections... BUT... I also like to study the combat styles of my opponents, to possibly learn from them. Vulching aside, the times I have been killed in aerial combat by the C hawg have involved some very smart flying by the pilot. Choosing his targets carefully, not engaging more than one or two before extending and regaining alt/E, etc. This is one of the primary factors in the 1-C's killing power.. the guy behind the stick. Again, I have to say "BUT"... I do question the apparent increase in lethality between the cannons on the hawg, and a similar number of cannons on any other plane in the set. Was there that much of a difference between the types of 20mm rounds between allied and axis craft, or are these a bit over modeled? There is no doubt that getting this plane in to position to kill repeatedly takes a great deal of skill (it's an absolute pig once you lose E), but any other plane in the same position very seldom one or two pings me to death anywhere nearly as often as a C hawg, even if it is carrying comparable armament. Hats off to the drivers of these beasts.. the successful ones are using their skills to the fullest.. but in my opinion the a/c they are flying so skillfully does kill, round for round, much easier than any other in the arena. Just a humble, inconsequential opinion.
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I agree with Karnak and think it should go.
eskimo
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Well, jokes apart, the problem is: we have only one rare a/c and guess what, she is the king of the arena.
IMHO, we have 2 choices: throw into the arena the other rare birds (like the TA-152) to make it more interesting (and balanced) or leave the cannon-hog out.
In other words, do we want an historical arena or not? I'm not particularly interested in a what-if arena. WWII air war would have been different with the sky full of buzzing cannon-hogs.
Gatt
4°Stormo CT
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Why all people INSISTS in this?...???
F4U1-C WAS USED IN COMBAT, not in big numbers but for sure EXTENSIVELY over OKINAWA and Jabo and Sweep missions over Japan on last days of the war. Had FAR more use than Ta152, A7M (wich NEVER flown a combat mission)...etc etc etc
To whine about F4U1-C is like whining in the future about the A-5. Be Ready cuz it has also 4 20mms, and climbs and accelerates FAR better than the hawg (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by funked:
Quite simply, 4 x 20mm should not be that much more effective than 6 x 50 cal.
]
20 mm =.80 cal, the 20mm shell is explosive.
and there“s not to much diffrance in firerate. 6 machineguns firing a 2 sec burst will put about 49 kg of lead into the air.
The 4x20mm will at the same time, put about 61,5 kg and theese 61,5 kilos also explode!
(theres apc ammo to, both in .50 and 20mm)
Crabofix "had any fresh fish latly?"
Svenska Kungliga Flygvapnet
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Did I really say TA-152? Oh, forgive me, I meant a well modeled FW190D-9. Please.
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Ok
First off, Karnak, until you can seperate Vulch kills from air to air kills, your statistics are meaningless.
Second, the F4U-1C was used in combat extensively, its easy to prove, and those that keep claiming otherwise are making themselves look stupid.
Third, the C-Hog is not our only "rare" aircraft. The N1K2-J had a production of less than 300 aircraft. And I find this a really strange statement coming from Gatt. How many C.205's were made (my memory is saying 200-400)? Most importantly, how many were actually made and used by the Italians, and how many of the total production were made by Germany after the Italian armistice (again my memory says over half the total production)?
Guys, if you don't try to take off from CAP'd fields, or partake of the HO, the F4U-1C is easy meat.
In this tour, I had died ONCE to a F4U-1C. And that was when I was stupid and allowed one I was BnZ'ing to pull up his nose and get a vertical HO shot on me and he won.
On the other hand, 84% of my deaths this tour are too Spit IX's and N1K2-J's.
And please don't think I am defending this plane because I fly it. I don't think I have a single sortie in it this tour. I just hate the idea of people complaining to remove a plane because they make poor decisions (ie takeoff from vulched fields) and die alot because of it.
Sheezzz... this is a stupid arguement. As soon as the next version comes out, people will just fly the Typhoon instead. Same guns, better vision, and much faster.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Desperately trying to figure out why Kamikaze Pilots wore helmets"
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Gatt, Fw190D-9 is a MUST in AH, sooner or later we'll have it. D-9 had more or less 1000 planes produced, 700 reached front line units. Saw EXTENSIVE combat with Luftwaffe, much more that C205, N1K2...and in the same league as the SpitXIV.
Ta152 only saw combat in JG301 in VERY last days on the war. If I dont recall bad, only 50 units reached the front, but I'm talking by memory.
So F4U1-C is OK, and FW190D-9 is a MUST be
(OOOOKKK, SpitXIV too...but AFTER fw190D-9 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-22-2000).]
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
Ok
And please don't think I am defending this plane because I fly it. I don't think I have a single sortie in it this tour. I just hate the idea of people complaining to remove a plane because they make poor decisions (ie takeoff from vulched fields) and die alot because of it.
92.7% agree with you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Fariz
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From Vermillion:
Third, the C-Hog is not our only "rare" aircraft. The N1K2-J had a production of less than 300 aircraft. And I find this a really strange statement coming from Gatt. How many C.205's were made (my memory is saying 200-400)? Most importantly, how many were actually made and used by the Italians, and how many of the total production were made by Germany after the Italian armistice (again my memory says over half the total production)?
I understand that HTC modeled the C.205 becouse an italian fighter was badly needed among online sims. If I'm wrong, please feel free to ask for the "Veltro" write-off.
If you want italian fighters and if you have to model a mid/late plane set you *must* choose the C.205 (some 280 built, all in Italy), regardless of the numbers. They fought from early 1943 till the end of the war, from North Africa to North Italy, against DAF, RAF and USAAF.
Little air force and building-power mean little numbers. Please dont compare apples with oranges.
And yes, my Ta-152 request is indeed stupid. BUT, the earlier you'll introduce the D-9 Dora, the Spit MkXIV, the La-7, the Tempest and some late IJN-IJAF kites, the better will be for the community.
Gatt
4°Stormo CT
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 03-22-2000).]
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Originally posted by funked:
I think the statistical dominance of the most heavily armed airplane should make it obvious that armament is over-emphasized in this sim due to a faulty gunnery model.
Quite simply, 4 x 20mm should not be that much more effective than 6 x 50 cal.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-22-2000).]
I don't think these stats mean much, particularly due to the field capture gameplay model.
Let's see stats with vultches removed; I'll bet the -C drops off the table then.
Outside of field capture/vultching where it is very good/excellent, the only role for the -1C is B&Z. It sucks at everything else and performance-wise the -51 is a far better B&Z airplane. The -1C is a good buff killer down low due to the gun package; it sucks at killing high buffs due to performance limitations.
As for 4x20 being the same as 6x.50, that can mean two things couldn't it?
Either the 20's are overmodeled or the .50's are undermodeled.
Of course, it may be the Pyro has both of them pretty well right on and people just can't recalibrate their unsubstantiated opinions, too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Side question: Does anyone know FOR SURE if a projectile "disappears" at a certain range? For example, does a .50 round just get dropped from the host at say 1.6K from the shooter? Or does it continue in the game until gravity eventually takes over and it hits the ground?
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Ok, to say that spit is the plane for newbies in AH, won't be all that accurate. Many newcomers choose to fly F4U-1C, it may be easier to die in it, but chances are that you will kill someone before dieing.
As I noted above, F4U-1C's pilots are mostly trigger happy vulch guys. They have little to offer when you engage them on equal or favorable terms, they will most likely try to disengage. Catch up with them and kill 'em. Ohh almost forgot, if the guy bails out, do your country a favor, kill the chute.
mx22
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Gatt, I have nothing against the Veltro and I enjoy it being in the game.
The only problem I had was that you were using the "get rid of the F4U-1C because it is the only rare bird" arguement. Obviously, it is not. And I was pointing out that the C.205 and the N1K2 are vulnerable to the same arguement.
Many very good aircraft were made in small production quanities in comparison to the huge industrial output of the United States, and the Soviet Union.
The problem is that once you go down that path, and validate that arguement, then players will pick and choose what planes they don't like and try to start crusades to have them removed from the game. Its a slippery slope.
BUT, the earlier you'll introduce the D-9 Dora, the Spit MkXIV, the La-7, the Tempest and some late IJN-IJAF kites, the better will be for the community.
I couldn't agree more, and just about everyone who reads these boards knows I have been fighting this crusade for quite some time. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Desperately trying to figure out why Kamikaze Pilots wore helmets"
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<<Quite simply, 4 x 20mm should not be that much more effective than 6 x 50 cal.
>>
In the 'Report of Joint Fighter Conference' (1944), the Navy rep said that the 20mm was 2-3 times more effective than the .50 cal, depending on range. He was really enthusiastic about the Navy transitioning to the 20mm. He said 4x20mm was comparable to 12 x .50 cal, just as the .50 cal was 2-3 times more effective than the .30 cal.
ra
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hey the guns suc but the the real problem is the dang thing has a great sustained turn rate. a mistake that torq uses again and again to kill, the bugger did 3 really impossible 180 loops to ho me 3 times , what people are objectin to is the trick where you pull this impossible crap to out sustained turn a spit or any other plane for the kill lose the bullcrap great low speed proformance and utterly stupidly impossible 180 deg 20 g turns and it wont be a issue
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Originally posted by Mighty1:
Said it before and I'll say it again ..it's not the plane it's the pilot.
A good pilot can make any plane look Uber.
But can a F4UC pilot get the same results if he/she was flying the F4UD? Of course not.
It's the guns not the plane.
leave the plane and nerf the guns a "little" and the majority of the players would be happy.
IMHO
Mox
The Wrecking Crew
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Yes, the 20mm is MUCH more effective thanthe 50 cal, but this is correct historicly. Every source I have backs that up.
Vermillion, I have to admit that I went off of cursory information when I said that the F4U-1C saw little combat, however I stand by my position that the Spitfire Mk XIV and Fw-190D-9 saw much more. Even your example N1K2 saw more, but because Japanese fuel is being modeled, the N1K2 is hamstrung and does not stand out as a statistical sore thumb (Saburo Sakai thought the N1K series was junk by the way).
Mighty1, the idea that all the good pilots are flying the F4U-1C is statisticly false. With that many kills/deaths there is ample evidence that a broad skill spectrum of pilots are flying it. The idea behind you post is true when dealing with a single plane/pilot but not when refering to 100.
Everybody, the data is difficult to interpet. It is after all a gross simplification of a complex thing, so I will grant that it might not be as imbalanced as it looks, but it looks REAL bad. I would like to see certain other aircraft added to the sim, my choices would be different than many of you. Because I prefer late war fighters, this is my personal list, balanced for what I think is fair and by what I like:
A6M5c (Japanese fliers deserve a new fighter and its my 2nd favorite kite)
YAK-3/9 (Russian fliers need another kite)
Spitfire Mk XIV (Razorback please)(its my favorite kite and the Brit fliers deserve a late war kite, Americans have the P-51D, P-38L and F4U-1C, Germans have the Bf-109G-10 which seems to effectively be a K-4)
Fw-190D-9 or Fw-190A-5 (An anti-fighter Fw would be nice)
Ju-88 (bombers aren't my thing, but we need more)
Lancaster (The other heavy bomber we need, balaces its greater bomb load with less firepower)
Pe-2 (Russian Mosquito)
Mosquito Mk VI (British Mosquito (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
G4M (Light structure, 20mm defensive fire)
P-47D (Tough, ugly, effective and common)
T-34/85 (Best all round Allied tank of the war)
M4 Sherman (Zippo lighter, but common as dirt)
Wirblwind (Great anti-aircraft vehicle, 4x20mm)
and last but not least an new terain set so that vehicles can hide.
On another note, the F4U attained its kill ratio by shooting down IJA trainees and unskilled replacements during and after the Marianas Turkey Shoot. What it is facing here is an entirely different thing.
Sisu
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 03-22-2000).]
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Originally posted by Karnak:
Spitfire Mk XIV (Razorback please
No way, we already have Spit9 and Spit5 with what you call Razorback canopies (I think it was called different in RAF, not sure though). We need Spit14 with bubble canopy so I can start truly enjoy AH landscape (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
mx22
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Mx22, yeah, but the bubble canopy Spits are UGLY. (IMHO) They took the prettiest plane and turned it into one of the ugliest.
Sisu
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 03-22-2000).]
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Originally posted by indian:
You are talking about a plane that has to flown properly to get kills and counting vulch fest kills to add to your blind stupidity it does not unbalance the game the game is growing every month
Lets stop these stupid post right now this is stupid. Pull the -1C pull all the cannons.
I'll start by saying I'm not a good fighter pilot and my scores reflect it.
I can get a MUCH better kill ratio in the HogC, much more than any other plane here.
All I have to do is get a ping or 2, or 3 and even a trainee pilot can do that given enough time.
The Hogs cannons compensate some for the lack of the ability to fly the plane well. The really good pilots here that fly the HogC are using their skill plus the superior advantage the guns give them to make them super lethal!
Some of the HogC pilots are VERY good pilots and I'm sure they would do well in any plane here but few of them would do as good without the hogs cannons (the way they are now).
Indian, your right the game is growing everyday and people will always look for things that give them advantage over others, it's in our nature. I'm sure we will have these types of debates about a lot of future vehicles, guns, planes, terrain, and just about anything else in the game. Most of us here are paying customers now and if many of us feel there's a game balance problem HiTech will likely look into the problem and validate the problem or dismiss it.
Just my 2cents....
Mox
The Wrecking Crew
[This message has been edited by Mox (edited 03-22-2000).]
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Originally posted by Mox:
The Hogs cannons compensate some for the lack of the ability to fly the plane well. The really good pilots here that fly the HogC are using their skill plus the superior advantage the guns give them to make them super lethal!
I agree. Am I the only one here who noticed the F4U-1D has the *worst* k/d ratio of any fighter in AH? While the difference in k/d ratio between the two models (~2:1 vs. 0.66:1) may be due in part to pilot skill, surely the guns *do* matter.
Just saying. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-- Todd/DMF
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Shake it Bake it...
Slice it Dice it...
Vulch it Mulch it...
Anyway you look at it, Karnak's stats do not lie. The F4U-1C is dominate. No arguement for or against can dispute that. The stats are facts. One can only dispute what the stats may or may not describe.
IMO the F4U-1C dominates for three reasons:
- Very lethal guns that allow more snap shot kills
- The aircraft performs well allowing many opportunities to shoot
- The aircraft is tougher than most of the oponents that it faces
Toss out the rest. -Or- Maybe just let it rest. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 03-22-2000).]
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Karnak, I'd agree with almost everything on your list, but to say the bubble-canopy spits are ugly marks you as obviously insane.
(http:// [url=http://www.madasafish.com/~nashwan/Spitfire2.jpg)]http://www.madasafish.com/~nashwan/Spitfire2.jpg[/img][/url]
I'd better agree with you though, you may be a pyschopath.
[This message has been edited by Nashwan (edited 03-22-2000).]
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[Steam mode]
Heck .. i'm reading all this OH MY GOOOD WHAT AN UBER WELL PERFORMING Dweeb Ship ...
I just don't get it .. I'm flying HOG exclusively (wow one plane wonder eh) and i'm flying both the C and the D.
I admitt that in high threat situations i rather take the C because then i don't have to wear a bogie down but i can kill it with a snap shot OR a very short tracking sollution.
BUT did any of you guys that are bashing on the HOG so often try and actually FLY it ??
I hear it's got a "GREAT" sustained turn performance -> NOT !
It BLEEDS E
It climbs SLOW
it's reasonable fast but EVERY plane out accelerates it and several can outrunn it...
it's got the same guns thanthe NIKI and nobody jells tone down the Niki.
Yea a lot of Pilots who fly the HOG do HO's -> BUT in a LOT of cases this is your ONLY option against enemys that climb better, accelerate better, turn better and are only a tad slower.
Don't BASH an airplane because of stats that aren't reflecting the whole picture and because some pilots just have better technique and E management than you !
[/steam mode]
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(http://members.aon.at/duckwing6/dw601.gif)
Phillip "Duckwing6" Artweger
Flight Officer "E" Flight
Skeleton Crew (http://www.picknowl.com.au/homepages/oneshot/main.htm)
[This message has been edited by Duckwing6 (edited 03-22-2000).]
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Duckwing6, you and others keep insinuating that pilots who fly the F4U-1C are better than the pilots who fly other aircraft. Why? Where is your evidence of this?
INTRODUCTION TO STATISTICS
When you have numbers that reach into the thousands, it statisticly nullifies the "better pilots equal better kill ratios" argument. It does this because in a large sample there will be approximately the same number of good and bad pilots flying each aircraft. Slight statistical differences can be accounted for by slightly more "ace" pilots flying that particular aircraft. Large statistical differences can only be accounted for by something that is a known, universal, such as the F4U-1C on one hand and the Fw-190A-8 on the other. Therefore we can tell that the kill/death ratio difference of these two aircraft is due, mostly, to the aircraft and not the pilots.
What the statistics can't tell us is what it is about them that causes the difference. In the case of the Spitfire MkIX we can posit that AKDejaVu's explantion is the reason its kill/death ratio is even. He reasons, using logical and demonstratable evidence, that the Spitfire MkIX has an even kill/death ratio even though it is a good fighter because of they way it is used. Because of its fast take-off and good low speed performance it is frequently used to scramble to defend an airfield. Fighting this way puts it at an energy disadvatage and its even kill/death ratio can be interpeted as a demonstration of its effectiveness despite fighting from a disadvantage. However in looking at the F4U-1C and Fw-190A-8 it is less clear why there is such a larg gap. The two aircraft are armed in a very similar fashion and both have poor low speed handling, so they should be used in a similar manner. If that is true, then the explantion would be that the F4U-1C is much better than the Fw-190A-8.
Sisu
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 03-22-2000).]
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Originally posted by Duckwing6:
BUT did any of you guys that are bashing on the HOG so often try and actually FLY it ??
I hear it's got a "GREAT" sustained turn performance -> NOT !
It BLEEDS E
It climbs SLOW
it's reasonable fast but EVERY plane out accelerates it and several can outrunn it...
it's got the same guns thanthe NIKI and nobody jells tone down the Niki.
Yea a lot of Pilots who fly the HOG do HO's -> BUT in a LOT of cases this is your ONLY option against enemys that climb better, accelerate better, turn better and are only a tad slower.
Don't BASH an airplane because of stats that aren't reflecting the whole picture and because some pilots just have better technique and E management than you !
I agree with "most" of what you said. I don't have a problem with the plane itself, I have a problem with its guns. The plane is by no means an easy plane to fly.
Are all the 20mm's modeled the exactly the same? I really don't think this is the case and I really doubt the N1K has the exact same model. I could be completely wrong here...but Id like to hear a response from Pyro to set us all straight.
If they are all the same then why are the scores not even close? Could it be the Hogs sexy profile? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Mox
The Wrecking Crew
[This message has been edited by Mox (edited 03-22-2000).]
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Guess no one read my post, especially duck. I have been flying it exclusively and IMHO it needs to go. Like it said maybe 2 or 3 sorties have been vulches, 1 ping and move on. The stats pretty much show its goofey. Also does each hit sprite model 1 round or what? Remember when it showed up as 6 20mm when it first came out? what if it wasnt just a typo and it really treats it that way. Dunno just wondering. Seems odd that n1k guns arent just as deadly.
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Dnil
902nd Immortal Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
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Duck's comments:
I admitt that in high threat situations i rather take the C because then i don't have to wear a bogie down but i can kill it with a snap shot OR a very short tracking sollution.
IMO this sums up the success for the F4U-1C. Planes that it fights against, typically can't do this. Add in the generic toughness of the aircraft and it is a very good package.
For the rest of Duck's comments, this is common for most planes. They all have strengths and weaknesses. Just take a minute to note that the F4U-1C does very well with these weaknesses, before you type.
I do not agree that this plane needs to go. Everyone has the equal chance to fly it.
I do agree that this planes dominates and the stats prove that.
Have Fun! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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Continuing this thread is pointless-we have two types of players here,those who prefer to fly in a "historic" environment and the "Quake" types who grab the plane with the biggest guns. The two types don`t mesh well and until we get a historic arena this will be a problem. Until then I think the diameter of the rounds should be decreased in size,I have viewed film of snap shots from the hog that should have little chance of hitting,but do and cause catastrophic damage. I especially hate the times you blow the wing off a quakehog and as it pinwheels out of control the pilot sprays wildly and kills you,it lessens my enjoyment of an otherwise fine sim.
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Introduction to Statistics? Don't need it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I am an Engineer with quite a bit of Statistical experience, including graduate classes in Statistical Applications to Experimental Design (hardest damn class I have ever had). Which means how do you apply statistics to an experiment (ie the arena) which has many unknown independent variables (vulching, style, experience, etc etc) that affect the outcome. Thats why I am of the opinon that the statistics don't apply very much because there are too many unidentified factors effecting them.
Another point that is being missed is that the F4U-1C and the Fw190A8, are not similarly armed. Hispano Mk II cannons, are quiet a bit different than MG151 cannons. The Hispano's are one of the best 20mm cannons of the war, while the MG151's are quite average. Individually, the MG151 is about 78% as effective as the Hispano. Overall, the Fw190A8 is only about 83% as lethal as the F4U-1C. Oh btw Lethality is another hobby of mine (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) And I will be happy to show you my equations, calculations, and assumptions.
Also, the F4U-1C and the Fw190A8 have very disimlar handling characterisitics. The F4U-1C was originally suppose to be a carrier borne aircraft, and therefore its comparitive (note in comparision to the 190) low speed handling characteristics were much better. The Fw190 also has a really nasty accelerated stall the -1C doesn't have. Furthermore the -1C (or any Corsair variant) has always been know to have excellent turning abilities for an aircraft of its size, but for the fact that it bleeds E like a stuck pig. It doesn't take much intelligent flying to have more E than a Spit V sitting on the spawn point.
All these things combine to make it easier to fly in a vulching mode. So more people fly it on these missions than the 190. Therefore, most 190 missions are fought in air to air situations, where the -1C missions are flown in vulch mode.
THATS why the -1C has such a better Kill/Death ratio than the 190. And those are just a few of the unrealized independent variables.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Desperately trying to figure out why Kamikaze Pilots wore helmets"
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Originally posted by Karnak:
Mx22, yeah, but the bubble canopy Spits are UGLY. (IMHO) They took the prettiest plane and turned it into one of the ugliest.
Sisu
B]
Yes, but bubble canopy will give you almost 360 field of vision. Currently back view is a big problem for Spit drivers.
mx22
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Minotaur, but where does that leave those of us who don't like the Corsair?
I've noticed a large ammount of anti-Spitfire sentiment here, how would you feel if it was the Spitfire MkXIVc instead? It would have much the same effect on the arena (same exact armament coupled with superior performance).
I am not really interested in paying $30.00 a month for a Corsair sim. $30.00 a month adds up to a lot of money for a game so that game/sim had better offer me a vareity to choose from.
My point is this: Keep the F4U-1C Corsair, but I hope over time to see some other high performance, non-American, aircraft to challenge it.
Mx22, the Malcolm Hood actualy gave better visibility to the rear sides than the Bubble canopy, plus the bubble canopy reduced the lateral stability of the XIV, which exerbated a problem it already had. The armor plates behind the pilot bean that 360 degree visiblity is pretty unatainable.
Sisu
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 03-22-2000).]
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OK.. point 1.
Karnak.. if you'd like information on the game, feel free to ask for it. What shouldn't be done is to sit and argue with people that are currently paying to play the game. Get in there and try it out.. even if only for 2 weeks. Then feel free to gripe all you want.
It amazes me that 3 people posting in this thread have not played AH since the F4u-1C came out.
That said.. some interesting statistics from those posting in this thread. How about K/D from those that have been vocal:
F4u-1D......3.56
F4u-1C......3.185629
BF 109G-6...3.148378
P-51D.......2.42
Fw 190A-8...2.153153
La-5FN......2.072727
Spit-IX.....1.761134
N1K2........1.452555
Spit-V......1.271111
P-38L.......1.230769
BF 109G-10..1.169811
B-17G.......1.121951
B-26B.......1.067416
C.205.......0.936416
BF 109G-2...0.823539
BF 109F-4...0.5
A sampling of 30 pilots all posting in this thread. Low and behold it is evident that there aren't many of them contributing to these lopsided stats. I wonder if the problem could be that the newbies are flying the spit more than the f4u... or that they are assuming that the F4u-1D must be better than the 1C because it was made later.
I also find it interesting that the average K/D in buffs was greater than 1:1. Strange thing is, this is the one stat that was pretty consistant amongst all pilots.
AKDejaVu
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Also.. an interesting stat:
The 30 Pilots that posted in this thread account for 1/9 of all F4u-1C kills. That said, 5 of them account for 1/12th of them.
If there are 10 more pilots matching those stats, then there is an excellent explanation for lopsidedness.
BTW.. if you add Torque into this mix.. you have 6 pilots totalling 1500 kills with the F4u-1C.. while only accounting for 280 deaths. I don't know who the other aces in the F4u are.. but I'm sure you'll see statistical bending on more than one more pilot's behalf.
AKDejaVu
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And.. to show how skewed stats can be. 1 Pilot has over 45% of all BF 109G-6 Kills. He only accounts for 18% of all the deaths. The BF 109G-6 has an overall record of 1.27:1. This pilot has a record of 3.75:1 while all others combined have a ratio of .81:1.
These statistics are not indicative of aircraft performance. They are easily swayed by 1 pilots commitment to flying 1 aircraft the best he can.
AKDejaVu
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Great job of Hog deffense, I want Indian to be my blood brother.
There was 976 C models produced and flying way before the end of war on imperial japan, production durring war time of some of these other varriants as production durring the war is what should be questioned, hell europe was a tourist attraction when the C was still blowin up tojo's.
They didn't make all hogs with cannons because cannons are very large, very heavy and the addition of the weight from them and their ammo load limited the Corsairs range and bomb and fuel payload and therefore limiting its true performance, ya know in the real sense not the get up and shoot online sense.
Most planes didn't carry 4 cannons because they didn't have the Size and bellybutton to pull them around and 4 of them would shake most birds to pieces, hell they would acctualy slow you down when you fired them.
The hogs cieling was 41 thousand feet in here at 20k it barely climbs or turns and that wasn't even its optimal performance altitude ,it was 27k.
Its top speed "level" was as fast or in most cases faster than other fighters of WWII at 470.
It had the strongest wings of any fighter by design for its carrier landing and operations in here they fall off if the wind gusts.
It could out roll and turn with anything at medium and high speeds and had multistage flaps to help with modest turning at slower speeds.
I don't know what quake is but do know the hog did Many things better than Most planes, not all better than one but it was a winning combination.
Spits.... gime a break the spit would turn its wooden wings to mulch trying to dive, roll and highspeed turn with the hog, its top speed was 450 and it could not exceed this in a dive like the 500mph+ hog in a dive.
The N1K1 was a large fighter by japanese standards and keep in mind they got radial engine technology from us prior to WWII, that makes it a candidate for cannons in here it has 4 cannons and they kill you just as fast if you get in front of them and rightfully so.
The hog like the P47 was big and very heavily armored and could lose several cylinders and still fly, in here they are not given this respect.
My "ratio is higher" when I use energy fighting instead of chasing cars at 50 feet with the masses, I always use the C model for this and use the N1K1 for alts bellow 15k where it will kill C's all day if they give up thier altitude or speed.
But all things considered I wouldn't change the flight models, they are better than anything out there and what all the fluster is really about is what it might have been like if hogs would have flown against planes in europe, make a PAC arena and you'll all be safe from the C model Corsair because the pilot accounts and the real aircrafts performance tell the truth about this large, fast, leathel bird of prey.
Rattle off attributes and abilities from other production fighters and the hog will blanket them all with its overall talents.
The C was one ......"SUPER"..... fighter, the germans are mad they didn't think of it, 190 you are clear for trap, good luck on your first carrier landing.
Thats my 30 bucks worth love it or don't,
"show me a war hero and I'll prove he's a Bum" Pappy Boyington.
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Verm and DejaVu:
Please don't confuse these guys with facts.
They have already made up their minds.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Pappy you forgot something it was the longest serving fighter of any kind on active duty in any great numbers. Think it was finally retired in 1972.(have to look that one up again)
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
1st Aces High Trainer Crew
Home of The Allied Fighter Wing A.F.W.
A.F.W. Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
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The 20mm are not the same as in some other games. The Hog has a higher rate of fire with its 20mm than the nik1 so more rounds are being fired. It also fires faster then the P38 does, three different types of cannons and the germans make four types each fireing at a different rate. I think the spit has the same guns as the hog does.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
1st Aces High Trainer Crew
Home of The Allied Fighter Wing A.F.W.
A.F.W. Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
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Pappy, Germans are not mad because they did not think of cannon Hog first. They are mad because their best planes are not modeled here.
200 cannon Hogs produced ? If that is enough, then 262 deserves its chance to get here 7 times more (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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(http://saintaw.tripod.com/hristo.gif)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 03-23-2000).]
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Pappy, 470 mph in an F4U-1C? B.S.
Wooden wings on a Spit? B.S.
Can't exceed 450 mph in a dive? B.S.
Hell a Spit was dived to Mach 0.92!
Come on Pappy, you watched too much Baa Baa Black Sheep in the 70's.
Study up and come back son.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-23-2000).]
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Great stats AKDejaVu, can Natedog buy you a beer, Informed me thx. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Quit the whinage! (http://members.home.net/torqss/f4usm.jpg)
DON'T GO AWAY MAD,JUST GO AWAY
[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 03-23-2000).]
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**Looks into his crystal ball**
Ahhhh it dont' matter none. All this crap will end shortly after the next version is introduced.
The Typhoon will easily displace the -1C as king of the vulch birds, and will even do it better.
Hell.. I might even fly it exclusively myself for a while, I need to pad my stats a little (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Desperately trying to figure out why Kamikaze Pilots wore helmets"
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Verm,
I was trying to figure out how the Tiffy will perform. AFAIK (I dont have any good book about Typhoons) she should be a real dog above 15K and with some troubles during high speed dives. Dunno about roll rate but ... hmmm.
IMHO, the Hog should be a formidable foe for the Typhoon, probably better. Any hint?
Gatt
4°Stormo CT
(http://web.tiscalinet.it/gatt/gamba.gif)
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
Ok
Third, the C-Hog is not our only "rare" aircraft. The N1K2-J had a production of less than 300 aircraft.
Over a 1000 built mr Verm. Chech your data again, please.
Crabofix
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Originally posted by funked:
Pappy, 470 mph in an F4U-1C? B.S.
Wooden wings on a Spit? B.S.
Can't exceed 450 mph in a dive? B.S.
Hell a Spit was dived to Mach 0.92!
Come on Pappy, you watched too much Baa Baa Black Sheep in the 70's.
Study up and come back son.
Wise words of a true Spit driver (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I'm all the way with you on this one funked.
mx22
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Please, give the word "rare" the right meaning: in this thread rare should be something related to the total type output and the time the kite fought.
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Originally posted by Karnak:
Mx22, the Malcolm Hood actualy gave better visibility to the rear sides than the Bubble canopy, plus the bubble canopy reduced the lateral stability of the XIV, which exerbated a problem it already had. The armor plates behind the pilot bean that 360 degree visiblity is pretty unatainable.
Sisu
Karnak,
Bubble canopy makes more sence in a dogfight as a simple glance back will give you much more information, then a glance in a Malcolm Hood canopy (back view is filled with armor plate, to see anything behind you, you have to manually slew view either to the right or to the left and even then you'll see back view from one side only).
I say we have enough of Spits with poor visibility, time to give us something that would greatly enhance our SA (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
mx22
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Crabofix, check your data (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
There were over a thousand N1K(*)-J's "George's" built. Most of those were the earlier N1K1 model, not the N1K2 model we have here in AH.
There were also a N1K3, N1K4, and N1K5 models in low very low production and prototypes available when the war ended.
I will post the exact breakdown on "George" production when I get home today.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Desperately trying to figure out why Kamikaze Pilots wore helmets"
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Gatt here are the links to a couple of different threads where the performance of the Typhoon was discussed. Its mostly conjecture based on the information we know, but I figure it too be pretty close.
Brits Rejoice, the Typhoon IB is coming !! http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/001957.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/001957.html)
The Typhoon's performance. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002258.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002258.html)
There have been some others, but these two are the best.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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HAHAHAHA Spit drivers complaining about rear view (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Hey guys that's a genuine HOG driver complaint (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Hmm.. Verm you got the fastest planes on deck very wrong, the pony is NOT a fast plane down there. However it actually nudges out the La-5FN by 15 mph at 6k if it does 405 mph at 5k. and it will be about 10 mph faster than the G10 with MW50 wep on.
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What did I say wrong Sorrow?? I honestly don't understand.
I didn't say the Pony was the fastest on the deck (But if it isn't what is??). I do remember saying that the Typhoon (374mph) would be faster than the Pony (370mph) which is true.
I also said it was faster than any other aircraft by 5-10mph on the deck (meaning at SL, since I only have SL and max speeds on the Typhoon).
From the AH charts at Sea Level with WEP
- P-51 (370mph)
- Bf109G10 (365mph)
- La5fn (360mph)
- F4U-1D (360mph)
- Fw190 (350mph)
You must be looking at speeds at some other altitude.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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This thread was started by someone who does not fly online so why we arguing with this person anyway. He knows nothing about the arena fighting that goes on now.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
1st Aces High Trainer Corps.
Home of The Allied Fighter Wing A.F.W.
A.F.W. Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
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Can someone please explain this 470mph dive limit on the Spitfire XIV. I was told in a long argument on another forum that the spit couldn't exceed 470 in a dive because of problems with it's ailerons. I thought this would be TAS, and therefore not THAT much of a problem, but can someone confirm this?
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Just checking in to see how the BBQ is going, Karnak, you need 'turning' yet? I don't like my meat burnt on one side. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Nashwan, you mean the "Barbie-fire" ? That's because Ken is in the backseat, more weight equals greater diving power.
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Ripsnort(-rip1-)
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~ XO
Aces High Training Corps
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/ripsnort.jpg)
"Experience is a hard teacher because she
gives the test first, the lesson afterwards"
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 03-23-2000).]
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It is interesting how a simple subject can be twisted to become so complicated. Screw the statistics, they are meaningless due to the totally uncontrollable list of influencing factors (vulch kills, pilot skill, deaths by "spiral takeoff crash syndrome", blah, blah, blah.). Screw how many were made, etc, etc, as obviously the plane set represents a wide variety of late and early issue, and low number issue, planes, and will continue to do so with coming versions. The only reasonable comments are those based on people who have engaged a 1-C in aerial combat, off the ground. No plane 1 or 2 ping kills me any where close to as often as a 1-C will, even 190 or N1K, EVER. The only real question in regards to the F4U-1C is this. Are its 4 20mm guns modeled accurately in comparison to the 4x20 on the N1K and the 190,etc... in essence, were the U.S. 20mm cannons that much more powerful than the 20's of the axis powers, or any other plane that might have been available with this configuration? Leave the 1-C in... it is the same plane as the 1-D basically... just verify the accuracy of the gun modeling. It is such a simple concept.
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Ha. Know nothing, heh? I don't think it works quite that way, but you're welcome to your own opinion Indian.
My views have been stated, and have been pretty reasoned and balanced. There are those who have made, simple, black and white type statements on both sides. I don't think that either is a reasoned response. My opinion has been moved towards a more favorable view of the F4U-1C overall. I still don't like the airplane, but I don't object to its presence any longer. It seems that people need to learn to avoid playing its game.
My computer is mostly working now, and should I be able to resolve the problem I'm having with my joystick and throttle I'll be joining you guys, at least for the two week trial. I'm interested to see how much has changed online since the beta (I'm well aware of how offline stuff has changed, e.g. aircraft performance).
Nashwan, I don't know who told you that the Spitfire XIV could only hit 470 in a dive, but they're wrong. As was stated by funked above, the Spitfire dove to mach .92. It wasn't the wings, airelons, rudder or elevators that failed either, it was the propeller (prop drag anyone?). As modeled offline, most of the fighters seem to be overly fragile where G stress is concerned (not that this statement is related directly to Nashwan's comment). I should note that I haven't G-stress tested all of the fighters. Back to Nashwan's comment, a fighter that could make 448 in level flight certainly wouldn't fail at only 22 mph faster, if that were the case the fighter couldn't hope to servive even a shallow full power dive. The Spitfire's airelons do get heavier, as the speed goes up above 350ish the roll rate drops dramaticly. But as the speed goes up lateral stability goes up as well and the strong torque on the Spit XIV is compensated for. The Spitfire didn't suffer from bad compressability like the P-38, A6M Zero and Typhoon did, and so could pull out of higher speed dives than they could (I'm not that familar with the compressability of other fighters). One thing to note is that the roll rate on the Spitfire was improve throughout its career, so that a Mk XIV would out-roll a Mk I by quite a bit (particularly to the left (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ). The 109 did not improve in this way and a 109E rolled almost exactly the same as a 109G or K. The Fw-190 could easily out-roll any Spitfire at any speed.
Ripsnort, I'm getting done, but not quite yet.
Sisu
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Indian... just read your post about rate of fire on the 1-C, etc... pretty much answered my question I guess, and if it is accurate, answers pretty much ALL the questions, but I guess only for those who are willing to listen. Thanks for the info. One thing rate of fire would effect in AH too, is that with a higher rate of fire shooting you, one ping probably doesn't equal one round hit,.... in other words, do the ping sound effects keep up with actual number of hits being sustained? I doubt it, and if not, I am sure it is probably an unavoidable factor in the game. Oh well...... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Ok my last post to this thread, its grown to monstrous proportions already.
Crabofix here is the exact production of the N1K series, including prototypes.
N1K1-J: 1007
N1K2-J: 423
N1K3-J: 2
Total: 1432
N1K2 (our plane) comprised 29% of total production.
As can be seen neither one of us was exactly right (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) So I will split it down the middle with you and call it a draw.
Ok thread dead for me.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Originally posted by funked:
Pappy, 470 mph in an F4U-1C? B.S.
Wooden wings on a Spit? B.S.
Can't exceed 450 mph in a dive? B.S.
Hell a Spit was dived to Mach 0.92!
Come on Pappy, you watched too much Baa Baa Black Sheep in the 70's.
Study up and come back son.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-23-2000).]
The early production spits ran Merlins without supercharging at around 360mph or so, until the spitIV and on got the chargers,but still had trouble crossing 400mph.
The markXX and XXI had the Griffon 62 with counter rotating props and ran up to 450mph.
The spits went from 1020-2050 horsepower over its service life, from 5,800pounds to over 11,000pounds,and its speed ranged from 364-452mph.
Ok it was the other planes of her majesty's royal air corp service with wooden wings, the spit-1 was metal frame fabric covered.
the Mark II's and on were metal framed, bolted frame to spar with 7 bolts and metal skinned but retained the fabric control surface that failed at speeds in a dive exceeding 470mph the Hogs level speed give or take a variant but certainly not its dive speed.
Later variants had the conrtrol surface moved out towards the wingtips and back towards the tail to escape thier longtime well known compressability failure.
from the book "Spitfire Flying Legend"
read up, and I did watch Blacksheep Squadron
every sunday night, what'd you watch, Laverne & Shirley.
The hog was faster had better high speed handling and wouldn't loose its wings doing it. son
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The Griffon engine with contra-props was the 82 or 85, not the 61 which was in the Spit XIV. The 21 also had the 61,iirc. It waasn't until the 24 that the contra-props became common, and that had an output of 2350hp.
The spitfire had metal skinned ailerons from the Mk V on. The top speed of the spit 14 was 448mph, faster than the contemporary Corsairs.
The point I was making about the 470mph dive limit is that it is IAS, not TAS (I have just realised I got this the wrong way round before). As any aircraft is a lot slower at sea level, 470TAS is not that much of a limitation. Far from losing it's wings, the Spitfire achieved higher speeds in a dive than any other aircraft in WW2.
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According to an old magazine I have just found, the Corsair had fabric control surfaces, and the entire wing aft of the main spar was fabric covered. Is this correct?
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Ya I guess I'm wrong the spitfire flew faster than the 2800 horse power corsair with little more than half the horse power.
The war variance issue if you read up was regarding the C model, and did fly in WWII unlike the Griffon powered spit or whatever variants came in the 50's and 60's. The point was should a C be in Aces High, not do spit pilots wana argue every digit, we got spit pilots in my squadron for that. I think the C just needs a PAC arena to fly in instead of with europe fighters whose own performance specs admonish the fact they were inferior in performance to Chance Vought's brain storm bla bla bla
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This thread really go muddled, I had to look at Karnak's first post to see what it was all about.
For the record, you would have a higher chance of not being killed in a F4U-1C than in a P-38. You would have a higher chance of getting a kill in a F4U-1C than in a P-51.
For those that do not believe in stats talk to a politian, because they do. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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Pappy, Griffon engined spits flew in 42 (the XII) and January 44(the XIV that Spit Dweebs are calling for)
The XIV had 2050hp, more than the F4U-1 with 2000hp. The F4U-4 had 2450hp, but as weight and drag were so much greater than the spit it is easy to see why the spit was faster.
If your calculations show half of 2450hp is 2050, then I suggest you buy yourself a good calculator. Whilst you are at it you might like to get yourself some more accurate books as well.
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Pappy:
"I did watch Blacksheep Squadron
every sunday night, what'd you watch, Laverne & Shirley."
As a matter of fact yes I did! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
"The hog was faster had better high speed handling and wouldn't loose its wings doing it. son"
OK the control part is true. Except there aren't many stories of Spitfires losing wings either. And there were some Spitfire versions that were faster than some F4U versions.
2800 horsepower Corsair? Not during WW2. You are thinking of F4U-5's in Korea or something.
Spitfire Mk. I with no supercharger? Every Merlin ever built had a supercharger sir.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-24-2000).]
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It was the P-47M with the P&W-R2800-63 that had 2800 HP (476mph, vrrrommmm). I think the F2G might have had the same amount.
Daff
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CO, 56th Fighter Group
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F2G used the R-4360-4 and had 3000 hp. Only 8 built.
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Coming in 1.03 then. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Pappy you may notice many people on this board have signatures on the end of their posts (myself not included). Many of these have quotes in. May i suggest if you ever have a quote in your signature you use :-
"ignorance is bliss"
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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<- Gets out his can of "Thread be gone" and begins to spray vigorously.
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I found an interesting quote whilst going through the old posts on this forum to see what I had missed.
So, regardless of how powerfull the canons are... or how many/few were made.. this plane is not going to rule the arena. It won't even be a distant 3rd. Allow the F4u faithfull to have their one wish and fly with cannons. They've endured long enough and are somewhat deserving for all they've had to put up with.
AKDejaVu
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<-Fights rebuttal in an already dead thread... unsuccessfully (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Was wondering when someone would bring that up. Here is another one from me:
I see too many vultures diving in and out of bases with ack up to believe that the acks are too accurate. Right now you know exactly how many ack there are, exactly where they are and exactly when they will come back up after being destroyed. I don't see why things should be made even easier for attackers.
I'm hoping the addition of ground toops will enable a country to even fortify air bases more so than the default setup allows.
AKDejaVu
Wich one do you think affects those stats more? I'm going to have to side with the easy field vulching. I know how easy it is to vulch at a field. I also know how little I worry about an F4u in any engagement. Don't give the F4 a shot.. and most pilots run away. Give them a shot.. and they'll take it.
Fly smarter.. complain less.
AKDejaVu
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hear hear DEJAVU (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)