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General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Flench on July 02, 2010, 09:14:04 AM

Title: Matt Hall nearly crashes at Red Bull Air Race Championships - Windsor, Ontario
Post by: Flench on July 02, 2010, 09:14:04 AM
You guy's seen this ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO7BuPG_vVo
Title: Matt Hall nearly crashes at Red Bull Air Race Championships - Windsor, Ontario
Post by: SIK1 on July 02, 2010, 09:34:23 AM
Wow! That's about as close to crashing as you can get without actually crashing.
Title: Re: Matt Hall nearly crashes at Red Bull Air Race Championships
Post by: Stoney on July 02, 2010, 09:37:31 AM
Unreal...Good example of an accelerated stall.  That's a one-in-a-million recovery there.
Title: Re:
Post by: mechanic on July 02, 2010, 09:43:20 AM
bah thats nothing, i've done it in a mosquito before  :D



here is another good clip about matt hall. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CB27K-wIsM&feature=related
Title: Re: Matt Hall nearly crashes at Red Bull Air Race Championships
Post by: FTJR on July 02, 2010, 10:15:21 AM
Obviously a talented pilot,  but there was a huge amount of luck in that recovery.
Title: Re: Matt Hall nearly crashes at Red Bull Air Race Championships
Post by: CAP1 on July 02, 2010, 10:52:52 AM
Unreal...Good example of an accelerated stall.  That's a one-in-a-million recovery there.

do a search for the race in perth. there was an identical stall, and he didn't recover. he hit the water wings level.....no injuries...........there's even a slow motion of the tail camera, where you can see the onset of the stall, just before the aircraft tries to over-rotate from the stalled wing.
Title: Matt Hall nearly crashes at Red Bull Air Race Championships - Windsor, Ontario
Post by: 68Hawk on July 02, 2010, 11:02:32 AM
Wish those skills worked with AH trees.
Title: Re: Matt Hall nearly crashes at Red Bull Air Race Championships
Post by: Stoney on July 02, 2010, 11:11:59 AM
do a search for the race in perth. there was an identical stall, and he didn't recover. he hit the water wings level.....no injuries...........there's even a slow motion of the tail camera, where you can see the onset of the stall, just before the aircraft tries to over-rotate from the stalled wing.

Wow.  Two identical incidents in the same aircraft type.  Looks like a trend.  I guess there is such a thing as too much elevator authority?
Title: Re: Matt Hall nearly crashes at Red Bull Air Race Championships
Post by: Ex-jazz on July 02, 2010, 11:43:29 AM
Now those both were The Close Call  :O


OT
Is there a Red Bull Air Race videos, from where you see the speed, G's and possible a altitude data real time?
Title: Re: Matt Hall nearly crashes at Red Bull Air Race Championships
Post by: CAP1 on July 02, 2010, 12:39:01 PM
Wow.  Two identical incidents in the same aircraft type.  Looks like a trend.  I guess there is such a thing as too much elevator authority?

yea. i think it's more like they're riding so close to the edge, that even just a shift in the wind, can cause this type of incident.

 i think on redbull;s site, there's another one of a similar "near" stall, on the entrance to the race course.......the pilot even said in the interview, that he tried to adjust and pulled a little harder i think.

i also do not believe that there was any luck involved in either of those incidents.......it was pure skill of the pilots.
linky

http://avstop.com/news_april_2010/red_bull_air_race_plane_crash_in_perth_pilot_adilson_kindlemann_ok.htm
Title: Re: Matt Hall nearly crashes at Red Bull Air Race Championships
Post by: Stoney on July 02, 2010, 01:41:32 PM

i also do not believe that there was any luck involved in either of those incidents.......it was pure skill of the pilots.


Actually, I think its the design of the aircraft.  Obviously they both suffered from tip stall, and if wasn't for those full span ailerons, neither of them would have been able to get the aircraft to hit flat. 
Title: Re: Matt Hall nearly crashes at Red Bull Air Race Championships
Post by: Ex-jazz on July 02, 2010, 01:55:45 PM
Actually, I think its the design of the aircraft.  Obviously they both suffered from tip stall, and if wasn't for those full span ailerons, neither of them would have been able to get the aircraft to hit flat.  

Any idea about the symmetrical airfoil type they are using?

I remember once the TV race commentator was mentioning something about the high lift profile wings on those air-race planes.
Title: Re: Matt Hall nearly crashes at Red Bull Air Race Championships
Post by: CAP1 on July 02, 2010, 02:10:02 PM
Actually, I think its the design of the aircraft.  Obviously they both suffered from tip stall, and if wasn't for those full span ailerons, neither of them would have been able to get the aircraft to hit flat. 

you could be right. did you watch the race at nj, over the hudson river? a couple of the guys have winglets on their aircraft now. it didn't seem to give them any distinct advantage though.

 what i did notice, was serious energy management. there were a couple of guys with admittedly underpowered aircraft(for this type of racing) that were VERY competitive, simply by flying much cleaner.
Title: Re: Matt Hall nearly crashes at Red Bull Air Race Championships
Post by: Stoney on July 02, 2010, 02:11:10 PM
Any idea about the symmetrical airfoil type they are using?

I remember once the TV race commentator was mentioning something about the high lift profile wings on those air-race planes.

Totally unscientific, but from pictures, it appears to be a straight slab, turbulent airfoil.  I'd guess its probably close to a NACA 0012 or 0015.  Its almost certainly a custom design, but appears to be simple.
Title: Re: Matt Hall nearly crashes at Red Bull Air Race Championships
Post by: Ex-jazz on July 02, 2010, 02:32:54 PM
Totally unscientific, but from pictures, it appears to be a straight slab, turbulent airfoil.  I'd guess its probably close to a NACA 0012 or 0015.  Its almost certainly a custom design, but appears to be simple.

Thank you for your information.

I was checking with the Profil the polars a bit (Re500000):
(http://fdm4bge.1g.fi/Files/10001/BGE_AirRace/RBAR_clcd.png)
(http://fdm4bge.1g.fi/Files/10001/BGE_AirRace/RBAR_clcd_a.png)

I understood, the Eppler 472 is a typical aerobatic airfoil with good Cl at high AoA aplus very gentle stall characteristic.

The NACA 0012/0015 seems to be more for the speeding, right?
Title: Re: Matt Hall nearly crashes at Red Bull Air Race Championships
Post by: Stoney on July 02, 2010, 04:11:50 PM
From the picture, that Eppler airfoil is probably closer.
Title: Re: Matt Hall nearly crashes at Red Bull Air Race Championships
Post by: Ex-jazz on July 02, 2010, 05:01:50 PM
From the picture, that Eppler airfoil is probably closer.

Yes, it's actually looking like Eppler modification from the wing tip section
(http://fdm4bge.1g.fi/Files/10001/BGE_AirRace/RBAR_MHT.png)
Title: Re: Matt Hall nearly crashes at Red Bull Air Race
Post by: eagl on July 02, 2010, 05:14:33 PM
Looked like maybe a tiny bit of a tip-stall or maybe a twitch on the rudder pedals that over-rotated him.

I saw another one just as bad, on a course in the desert with towering rock formations.  A little (200 ft tall) rock pedestal had the gates on it, and the approach to that gate was a turn where most competitors were pulling around 10 Gs.  The guy gloc'd around the turn and did a bounce-and-go off of the rock pedestal while still recovering from the gloc, and came just a few ft from plastering himself straight into the side of the rock.
Title: Re: Matt Hall nearly crashes at Red Bull Air Race Championships
Post by: eagl on July 02, 2010, 05:17:51 PM
Actually, I think its the design of the aircraft.  Obviously they both suffered from tip stall, and if wasn't for those full span ailerons, neither of them would have been able to get the aircraft to hit flat. 

Earlier in the video clip there were at least 2 spots where it looked at first like he was just over-using the rudders to help the plane turn, but on second view maybe he is using the tip-stalls on purpose to help roll (sort of like short 90-deg snap rolls) but the plane was twitchy enough that it snapped on him when he didn't want it to, halfway through what should have been a stable high-G turn.

But look at the rest of the vid...  His plane does a lot of wiggling around and my read was that he was either really standing on the rudders to help roll, or he was tip-stalling an awful lot, maybe on purpose.