Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Paladin3 on July 04, 2010, 08:41:32 AM
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Someone once said to me that the fuel pumps on WWII fighters were much like allot of civilian aircraft today - they won't feed fuel when inverted for long periods of time... Does anyone know the truth about such things? If not, that would be an interesting thing to model into the game seems like...
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Well, I know that the engine in the Hurri Mk1 will die if flown inverted for more than a couple of seconds - unless I'm pulling positive G's like in a corkscrew or barrel roll. Not sure about the fuel-injected planes, but the coad is there if indeed the other planes had similar issues.
But I believe your question begs this question: Why would you be flying inverted long enough for your engine to starve? Practicing for the Oshkosh air show?
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Not knowing how long it takes for an engine to starve, it made me wonder about all the negative g pulling I seem to notice in game for defensive purposes, as well as when folks roll inverted before making a BnZ pass through a fight. I am not sure if it would have any affect at all, just wondering about it and I know there are folks here with allot more knowledge than I have about the subject so I thought I would ask.
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Well, I know that the engine in the Hurri Mk1 will die if flown inverted for more than a couple of seconds - unless I'm pulling positive G's like in a corkscrew or barrel roll. Not sure about the fuel-injected planes, but the coad is there if indeed the other planes had similar issues.
But I believe your question begs this question: Why would you be flying inverted long enough for your engine to starve? Practicing for the Oshkosh air show?
:airplane: Fuel injected engines don't care if they are upside down or not and will run fine if they have an inverted oil system and fuel pickups.
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Well, I know that the engine in the Hurri Mk1 will die if flown inverted for more than a couple of seconds - unless I'm pulling positive G's like in a corkscrew or barrel roll. Not sure about the fuel-injected planes, but the coad is there if indeed the other planes had similar issues.
But I believe your question begs this question: Why would you be flying inverted long enough for your engine to starve? Practicing for the Oshkosh air show?
The Spit I is the same. Both will kill if inverted and not under positive G's or if under negative G's.
:airplane: Fuel injected engines don't care if they are upside down or not and will run fine if they have an inverted oil system and fuel pickups.
They don't even have to be fuel injected. The Spitfire/Hurricane problem was solved with the advent of Miss Shilling's Orifice and later with pressurized carborators. They still used carborated engines but no longer stalled under negative G.
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Gotchya, so it is not something that we see in the MA anyway, with older planes being equipped with other devices that would allow inverted flight. Thanks gang.
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With some planes as I recall it was a problem of oil starvation.
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Gotchya, so it is not something that we see in the MA anyway, with older planes being equipped with other devices that would allow inverted flight. Thanks gang.
Well most of the planes we fly in the MA (Especially Late War) would run inverted anyhow, but a few planes will not, and those are accurately modeled.
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With some planes as I recall it was a problem of oil starvation.
the Allison engines /p-38/p-40/early 51's, could only run inverted for about 30 seconds if i remember right, it had a dry sump oil system but no way to pick enough oil up from the valve covers to sustain pressure,
the main pickup was in the pan, there was also a line from the back of each valve cover about 1 inch I.D. , nose down inverted zero or negative G was a big no no!
the lines in the back of the valve covers were there to drain off access oil during nose up flight but could also help feed the pump for a short time in inverted flight as long as you kept the oil at the back end of the motor!
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Flying inverted is a way to scope what is going on below. Those below can't really see that you are watching them. Seems like it should be modeled as time limited if that is the case.
Infidelz.
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I haven't research this extensively but the problem of prolonged inverted flight is 3 fold.
First is a plane with a float carburator will cut out because the float is floating the wrong way under neg G. Pressure Carb's and fuel injection do away with that problem, and note there is a difference between the two.
Second as noted the engine oil supply under neg g would be time limited.
Third the fuel supply under neg g would be time limited.
The oil and fuel under neg g could be supplied by a hopper that trapped fuel at the pickup. Inversion time could be limited to the contents of the hopper.
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I haven't research this extensively but the problem of prolonged inverted flight is 3 fold.
First is a plane with a float carburator will cut out because the float is floating the wrong way under neg G. Pressure Carb's and fuel injection do away with that problem, and note there is a difference between the two.
Second as noted the engine oil supply under neg g would be time limited.
Third the fuel supply under neg g would be time limited.
The oil and fuel under neg g could be supplied by a hopper that trapped fuel at the pickup. Inversion time could be limited to the contents of the hopper.
I have no problem flying inverted....didn't you read? the ones that could not, are modeled properly, the ones that can, are also modeled properly.
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I have no problem flying inverted....didn't you read? the ones that could not, are modeled properly, the ones that can, are also modeled properly.
Not entirely true. The corsair has a 10 second inverted flight limitation, due to the loss of oil pressure in inverted flight.
Where there is no restriction in AH as to how long you can keep the F4U inverted.
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I have no problem flying inverted....didn't you read? the ones that could not, are modeled properly, the ones that can, are also modeled properly.
wrong, I have flown nearly all airplanes upside down just to see how long i can sustained it, and there was never any limit, and that includes the buffs, who would never go upside down, on purpose i should say.
semp
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wrong, I have flown nearly all airplanes upside down just to see how long i can sustained it, and there was never any limit, and that includes the buffs, who would never go upside down, on purpose i should say.
semp
The Spit I and Hurri I won't fly inverted forever. Go try them. Well, they will fly but not with the engine running.
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According to one of the training videos that the P38 pilots watched, Lockheed recommends no longer than 10 seconds in inverted flight. This would cause a tremendous drop in oil pressure and eventually cause the engines to overheat and blow up.
Link:
http://zenoswarbirdvideos.com/main.html
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But I believe your question begs this question: Why would you be flying inverted long enough for your engine to starve?
hunting GV's
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I have no problem flying inverted....didn't you read? the ones that could not, are modeled properly, the ones that can, are also modeled properly.
Actually this isn't correct. Here is a youtube video of a P51-D that was redesignated a P51-TF but still uses ther merlin rolls royce engine where the annoucer clearly states the max sustained inverted time is 10 seconds. Yet this is not modeled in any aircraft that used that engine.
Time spot 3:40- 3:50 contains the information about inverted flight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMILwL86njk
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if modeled correctly, those planes with that limitation,, such as the 51 or the 38 would have engine failure after the 10 seconds, that might be a neat thing but it also has a problem in that you cannot feel the g force or lack there of
the problem is not with inverted flight but with zero or negative sustained g, playing a computer game and in combat it would be hard to look at the g- force indicator and fight constantly. the way we fight now would be changed a great deal if that were to be in that positive g would have to be pulled almost all the time ! engine management would play a large factor that at this time we do not have to worry about.
"I would be all for trying it this way", but I am fine with it the way it is now as well,, and would not want to overburden players with to much to think about if it took away from the combat!
I do imagine tho,, that many here would love it, I also think HTC probably thought about all of this!
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inverted flight in Hurri and Spit 1s are impossible due to their carbeaurators and no fuel injection. BUT, inverted flight for any prop plane WILL cause engine seizure due to oil pressure dropping. It just depends on what plane you are in and how long you flew it upside down. The game does not model this. no reason to really... but the inverted bomber dropping ord kinda annoys me sometimes
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inverted flight in Hurri and Spit 1s are impossible due to their carbeaurators and no fuel injection. BUT, inverted flight for any prop plane WILL cause engine seizure due to oil pressure dropping. It just depends on what plane you are in and how long you flew it upside down. The game does not model this. no reason to really... but the inverted bomber dropping ord kinda annoys me sometimes
I don't know that there is not any reason!!!! it would help to add more realism to the dogfights in that it would limit the capability of the pilot to do things the plane could not do to start with!
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I try to stay positive g. If I go negative it makes margarita come out of the blender.
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I don't know that there is not any reason!!!! it would help to add more realism to the dogfights in that it would limit the capability of the pilot to do things the plane could not do to start with!
i've never flown into the red zone inverted while flying since my first year. unless thats not here anymore? and i rarely see invert idiots due to the simplicity of ways to kill them :aok the noobs learn not to fly neg g dogfights for long
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I try to stay positive g. If I go negative it makes margarita come out of the blender.
lol. :salute