Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: StokesAk on July 11, 2010, 08:15:54 PM
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I heard somewhere that the Mosquito could outrun almost everything that the germans could throw at them.
I was wondering if this statement was true.
The mossie goes about 300 when it is in level flight with rockets and bombs, this seems very slow to me.
So if it could outrun most german fighters what fighters would that be refering to?
What years did this mossquito variant see most service and what fighters did it go toe to toe with?
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300? even with rockets its faster than that at all alts
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=57&p2=-1&pw=2>ype=0)
rockets cost 10mph at most iirc.
its rep as fast comes from its performance at cruise settings not full power.
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Here is a website I found that may have some answers. I just briefly skimmed it, so it may just be stuff you already know, lol. http://www.aviation-history.com/dehavilland/mosquito.html
EDIT:: Something else I found that may be helpfull. http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/
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What RTH said.
The VI was in service mid-43 to end of war, encountered standard German fighters of the time, though I'm not sure any VIs encountered 262s or 163s.
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Alright, thanks I though that they meant on the deck as oppose to 20,000 feet.
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Alright, thanks I though that they meant on the deck as oppose to 20,000 feet.
It depends on the Mosquito and the time. Late war the Germans had many aircraft that could out run the Mosquito at any altitude. The Fw190D-9, Ta152, Bf109G-10, Bf109K-4, Me262 and Me163 will all out run a Mosquito. Intercepting a bomber Mosquito is much harder than just outrunning it. A Bf109K-4 does not have a 450mph ground speed while it climbs and once it is at the Mosquito's altitude it is now a long ways behind, too far to overtake. Intercepts have to be set up, and even then there isn't a lot of margin of error.
As to our Mosquito, it is a low altitude Mosquito and there is very little, if anything, in the German inventory in mid-1943 that can catch it in its element. Clean it does ~355mph on the deck, have fun running that down with an Fw190A-5 or Bf109G-6.
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As Karnak says, it depends on the Mosquito type, altitude, place (262s by night over Berlin, not elsewhere) etc. I reckon that towards the end of the war, one might have found, over a 24-hour period, the following Mosquito variants over Europe:
F.II (last kill in November '44!)
B.IV
FB.VI
B.IX
(PR.IX? Not sure when their last sortie was)
NF.XII
NF.XIII
PR.XVI
B.XVI
NF.XVII
FB.XVIII (rare-bird flying anti-tank gun on coastal strikes, think it was withdrawn Dec 44 or Jan 45)
NF.XIX
B.XX
B.25
NF.30
PR.32 (another fairly rare bird)
Some were faster than others... I also think a lot of Mossies were "fast enough" to get in and get away at their operational heights, as opposed to the short, low-alt, straight-line, radar-dot tail-chases we occasionally get in AH.
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double
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As a high alt bomber, remember that it was flying AT NIGHT. Night fighters are a little slower than similar model day fighters and generally night fighters use other, slower planes/variants. Their main job was to hunt Lancasters and the likes, so going ~400 mph to be able to close on a mosquito bomber in a chase was not top priority.
The VI was the fastest plane on the deck in late 43 and following that by smaller and smaller margin until the top day LW fighters eventually became faster. Still, even in 1945 they were not faster by a wide margin to make an easy short interception. Also in this case remember that the vast majority of Moss operations were done at night. During day time they were normally either on Ranger, relaying on surprise or escorted by fighters.
As Karnak mentioned, the real speed asset was the extremely high speed cruise. This made interception a very tricky business for the LW as even small errors in vectoring would result in a long chase at best, or passing far enough not to make eye contact. At night, the interceptors would have to be vectored in with even higher accuracy in order not to miss the mosquitoes. Very few planes could fly to Berlin and back averaging over 300 mph. Not even fighter escorts.
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Im still not convinced that AH's current Mossi Frankenstein incarnation is as accurate as can be. I hardly expected HTC to pick a new hybrid that was SLOWER than their old Mossi hybrid. Yes, the new flight model is pleasing, but the speed are a bit... actually quite disappointing.
:headscratch:
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Well i did here on a tv program i think it was the Top Ten of all time Bomber's they featured the Mossi in 5 th or 6th place. And they said it could out run almost every aircraft at Zero feet till the Me 262 came along but i highly doubt it as any aircraft can gain the necessary speed to catch it from a dive from altitude.
But maybe not when its empty and on the return journey.
Eh who know's only pilot's from WW2 can confirm this one :)
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Im still not convinced that AH's current Mossi Frankenstein incarnation is as accurate as can be. I hardly expected HTC to pick a new hybrid that was SLOWER than their old Mossi hybrid. Yes, the new flight model is pleasing, but the speed are a bit... actually quite disappointing.
:headscratch:
357mph is not slower than 338mph.
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Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure what "Frankenstein" is supposed to mean.Weights are right, engines are right, speeds are right, armament is right.
It has to fight to fight stangs and hawgs (damn your black soul, shiv), but that's an occupational hazard in AH.
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Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure what "Frankenstein" is supposed to mean.Weights are right, engines are right, speeds are right, armament is right.
It has to fight to fight stangs and hawgs (damn your black soul, shiv), but that's an occupational hazard in AH.
yeh but inside the mossi doesnt have the right control coloum. The mossi's Control coloum was similar to the P38's I believe.
But that hardly constitute's a Frankinstien Monster. :lol :lol :rofl :rofl
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Eh who know's only pilot's from WW2 can confirm this one :)
There are plenty of accounts of mossies outrunning 109s and 190s. The problem is that in the cases it did not out runs them, it may be hard to find someone to tell the tale...
I remember reading of one case of a mossie that got into a daytime 1on1 fight with a 190 - I assume he was unable to escape him and did not simply decide to have a go at the 190, so this is a counter example. Need to check Sharp & Bowyer again, details a bit blurred in my head. After a furious 0 alt dogfight during which the mossie banged one prop against some terrain object, the mossie made it home to tell the tale and claimed the 190 as a kill.
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yeh but inside the mossi doesnt have the right control coloum. The mossi's Control coloum was similar to the P38's I believe.
But that hardly constitute's a Frankinstien Monster. :lol :lol :rofl :rofl
It has the correct stick, you are thinking about a different model of the Mosquito than the Mk VI that we have.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3587/3786568881_b6c12f2ccc.jpg)
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yeh but inside the mossi doesnt have the right control coloum. The mossi's Control coloum was similar to the P38's I believe.
But that hardly constitute's a Frankinstien Monster. :lol :lol :rofl :rofl
Heheheh, no, the AH FB.VI has the right control stick - the spectacle handles were in the unarmed variants.
bah, late
Bozon's account sounds like Bob Braham, though he had to ditch in view of an RN vessel.
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Ah cool i thought every mark had the same coloum my bad cheer's for the update :) :salute
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357mph is not slower than 338mph.
What altitude are you referring to? Referencing both AH Mossi Mk VI speed charts, Im not seeing the new Mossi faster than the old Mossi until it reaches... you tell me? 20K? At the typical operating altitudes for the variant we have performing the role in which it performed most... it is slower.
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What altitude are you referring to? Referencing both AH Mossi Mk VI speed charts, Im not seeing the new Mossi faster than the old Mossi until it reaches... you tell me? 20K? At the typical operating altitudes for the variant we have performing the role in which it performed most... it is slower.
I was referring to sea level.... I have no idea how you concluded the old Mossie was faster down low.
The new Mosquito is faster at all altitudes as compared to the old Mosquito when on WEP. At MIL the speeds are very similar, with the old one perhaps edging it a by 1mph at sea level, the old one faster by an odd 13mph at 5,000ft and the new one 4mph faster at 12,000ft and 1mph faster at 13,000ft.
100ft:
MIL: New: 319mph Old: 320mph
WEP: New: 357mph Old: 338mph
5,000ft:
MIL: New: 334mph Old: 347mph
WEP: New: 374mph Old: 363mph
12,000ft:
MIL: New: 361mph Old: 357mph
WEP: New: 384mph Old: 376mph
13,000ft:
MIL: New: 363mph Old: 362mph
WEP: New: 386mph Old: 380mph
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Well i did here on a tv program i think it was the Top Ten of all time Bomber's they featured the Mossi in 5 th or 6th place. And they said it could out run almost every aircraft at Zero feet till the Me 262 came along but i highly doubt it as any aircraft can gain the necessary speed to catch it from a dive from altitude.
But maybe not when its empty and on the return journey.
Eh who know's only pilot's from WW2 can confirm this one :)
You must really take what shows on the Military and History Channel with a grain of salt. In one of those "Showdown" episodes, they said a P-38 had dive brakes and another show on the History Channel referred to the .50 caliber machine guns on a Mustang as 50mm cannons. Take those shows for what they are, great pieces of entertainment but short on historical accuracy.
ack-ack
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You must really take what shows on the Military and History Channel with a grain of salt. In one of those "Showdown" episodes, they said a P-38 had dive brakes and another show on the History Channel referred to the .50 caliber machine guns on a Mustang as 50mm cannons. Take those shows for what they are, great pieces of entertainment but short on historical accuracy.
ack-ack
What about the 38 shutting off one engine to turn with a zeke? I think I heard that in one of those too. Not sure though...
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You must really take what shows on the Military and History Channel with a grain of salt. In one of those "Showdown" episodes, they said a P-38 had dive brakes and another show on the History Channel referred to the .50 caliber machine guns on a Mustang as 50mm cannons. Take those shows for what they are, great pieces of entertainment but short on historical accuracy.
ack-ack
I know ack-ack that's why i also said that only the pilot's that flew them can tell us overall they are the best source of information on these aircraft. :) :salute
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What about the 38 shutting off one engine to turn with a zeke? I think I heard that in one of those too. Not sure though...
You can chalk that up to being as accurate as the P-51D having 6x 50mm cannons.
ack-ack
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You can chalk that up to being as accurate as the P-51D having 6x 50mm cannons.
ack-ack
Ok :aok
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I was referring to sea level.... I have no idea how you concluded the old Mossie was faster down low.
The new Mosquito is faster at all altitudes as compared to the old Mosquito when on WEP. At MIL the speeds are very similar, with the old one perhaps edging it a by 1mph at sea level, the old one faster by an odd 13mph at 5,000ft and the new one 4mph faster at 12,000ft and 1mph faster at 13,000ft.
100ft:
MIL: New: 319mph Old: 320mph
WEP: New: 357mph Old: 338mph
5,000ft:
MIL: New: 334mph Old: 347mph
WEP: New: 374mph Old: 363mph
12,000ft:
MIL: New: 361mph Old: 357mph
WEP: New: 384mph Old: 376mph
13,000ft:
MIL: New: 363mph Old: 362mph
WEP: New: 386mph Old: 380mph
I printed off a Mossi speed chart from the AH Trainers website, that still has the old Mossi stats (old Mossi weight is 2000lbs heavier as well!!!). I then placed over top the new Mossi speed chart and I'm seeing a bit bigger of a spread than the stats you posted, my hunch was correct. For instance;
100ft:
New: 318mph, Old: 322mph [difference of 4, yours had a difference of 1]
5000ft:
New: 335mph, Old: 348mph [a difference of 13, same for both]
10,000ft:
New:352mph, Old: 364mph [a difference of 12, yours had a difference of 4 in favor of the new Mossi???]
13,000:
New: 363mph, Old: 362mph [difference of 1, same for both]
15,000:
New: 355mph, Old: 372mph [18mph faster for old!)
At 19k, the new Mossi finally and clearly over takes the old Mossi for a higher top speed and they don't become real closely similar again until about 30k when they both move at 340mph or so.
Aside from 12k to 13k or so, and above 19k, the old Mossi was clearly faster. Map out a chart and see for yourself. Obviously, I'm not even debating WEP, there is no confusion on that.
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the FB VI used merlin 21 or 25, if you look at the critical alts at WEP (~6k,~12k) the new one is modelled on the merlin 25 and matches the charts at http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mosquito/mosquito.html (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mosquito/mosquito.html).
the old mossie had different critical alts at MIL so it was modelled on a different engine, I'm not sure which one, but it doesnt look like either the 21 or 25 to me (21 was higher alt iirc.) pretty sure karnak or scherf can tell us which one it was modelled on :)
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My own view is that the new one is modelled on 25s, but I' can't recall ever having seen a published MIL cruise chart for the VI with ejectors. It was tough enough finding one for WEP...
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I printed off a Mossi speed chart from the AH Trainers website, that still has the old Mossi stats (old Mossi weight is 2000lbs heavier as well!!!). I then placed over top the new Mossi speed chart and I'm seeing a bit bigger of a spread than the stats you posted, my hunch was correct. For instance;
100ft:
New: 318mph, Old: 322mph [difference of 4, yours had a difference of 1]
5000ft:
New: 335mph, Old: 348mph [a difference of 13, same for both]
10,000ft:
New:352mph, Old: 364mph [a difference of 12, yours had a difference of 4 in favor of the new Mossi???]
13,000:
New: 363mph, Old: 362mph [difference of 1, same for both]
15,000:
New: 355mph, Old: 372mph [18mph faster for old!)
At 19k, the new Mossi finally and clearly over takes the old Mossi for a higher top speed and they don't become real closely similar again until about 30k when they both move at 340mph or so.
Aside from 12k to 13k or so, and above 19k, the old Mossi was clearly faster. Map out a chart and see for yourself. Obviously, I'm not even debating WEP, there is no confusion on that.
Well, the new Mossie might be a little bit slower on MIL than the old one, but is much faster on WEP. Thats all that matters.
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Well, the new Mossie might be a little bit slower on MIL than the old one, but is much faster on WEP. Thats all that matters.
Considering that WEP last not quite 5 minutes and that a Mossi flights are much longer than 5 minutes, I'm sure many will debate that WEP is all that matters.
Dont get me wrong, I love shallow diving into the target area at 450+ mph and dropping my 2 wing bombs then extending while out running most aircraft (on WEP). Once clear and able to gain a wee bit of altitude back, then turning back in and doing the rinse-repeat thing dropping the 2 internal bombs and getting out of there, that is what the Mossi is all about. But 5 min of WEP is hardly enough to proclaim the Mossi is where it should be. ;)
All in all I like the new Mossi, I'm just having a hard time grasping the fact that it is slower at typical altitudes than the previous incarnation.
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You didn't let the speeds settle. All my tests were acceleration to speed tests, not the less accurate deceleration to speed tests. The old one never reached 321 or 322 on the deck and the new one did reach 319. Your numbers have to be wrong. The difference at 5000ft is odd, but is likely due to a change in the critical altitudes modeled on MIL. I really don't have any info on what the proper speeds at MIL should be.
The problem we have here is that the only charts we know of are for WEP performance. The old Mossie VI WEP was clearly based on a Mosquito Mk VI powered by Merlin 25s with flame dampers. The new Mossie VI's WEP performance is largely extrapolated data from multiple tests.
I cannot agree with you that MIL speed matters more than WEP speed. Once I am in combat I am using WEP pretty heavily and the change there is massively for the better and that is where it counts most.
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You didn't let the speeds settle. All my tests were acceleration to speed tests, not the less accurate deceleration to speed tests. The old one never reached 321 or 322 on the deck and the new one did reach 319. Your numbers have to be wrong. The difference at 5000ft is odd, but is likely due to a change in the critical altitudes modeled on MIL. I really don't have any info on what the proper speeds at MIL should be.
The problem we have here is that the only charts we know of are for WEP performance. The old Mossie VI WEP was clearly based on a Mosquito Mk VI powered by Merlin 25s with flame dampers. The new Mossie VI's WEP performance is largely extrapolated data from multiple tests.
I cannot agree with you that MIL speed matters more than WEP speed. Once I am in combat I am using WEP pretty heavily and the change there is massively for the better and that is where it counts most.
Ahhem if i can put my 2 cent's in i have recently flown the mossi on strike missions in the M/A at zero feet. now i have found that once i take off and level off at zero feet the mossi wont go any faster than 330mph but if i climb to 2000 feet then dive to the deck it will go up-to 360-380mph and hold it it's self at that speed without wep on. And another thought is what if in WW2 on these low alt missions thats how the pilots of the mossi got to high speeds. Just a thought!!
Again just my 2 scent's on the mossi's speed at Zero feet :)
Thankyou
BulletVI
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BulletVI,
There is an explanation for that. First, you dove from a higher altitude and thus gained speed. Second, the Mossie weighs in over 20,000 pounds. That thing can hold E better than the vast majority of the planeset in AH. Its energy retention allows it to hold speed for longer durations of time. Third, youve got two inline liquid cooled engines that produce a lot of thrust. Due to its design, it is also a very aerodynamic airframe. This again allows for better speed retention. I am not saying that the Mossie is the best in anything, it just has some good traits/features that allows the Mossie to perform the way it does.
I am not an aviation engineer, so someone with expertise in the field can shed some light on the subject better than I can.
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BulletVI,
There is an explanation for that. First, you dove from a higher altitude and thus gained speed. Second, the Mossie weighs in over 20,000 pounds. That thing can hold E better than the vast majority of the planeset in AH. Its energy retention allows it to hold speed for longer durations of time. Third, you've got two inline liquid cooled engines that produce a lot of thrust. Due to its design, it is also a very aerodynamic airframe. This again allows for better speed retention. I am not saying that the Mossie is the best in anything, it just has some good traits/features that allows the Mossie to perform the way it does.
I am not an aviation engineer, so someone with expertise in the field can shed some light on the subject better than I can.
Nah Plazus you explained it down to almost the last T there. But what i was referring to was that with its armament compliment that this is probally the tactic used by Moss Pilots in WW2 to gain the necessary speed advantage for the Mission. But on the return trip as the Moss will now be lighter due to the use of it's bombs and rocket's and the use of fuel the Moss will easily reach those high speed's.
But remember Moss Pilot's in WW2 on a mission to destroy a gestapo headquarter's in a french village or town would have only carried 2 x 250lb bombs.
So that the resulting weight was lower and the 250lb bomb was deemed more accurate for low level bombing due to its tail fin design on the bomb. But hey this last paragraph is not relevent. but try the Moss At zero feet armed only with 2 x 250lb bombs and you may get a surprise of its speed capabilities.
Here is Some really worth while reading on the Mossi' Performance it's actual data from the test trial's.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/fpacimq2gkpqpyk/Mossi Performance.pdf
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BulletVI, if you are flying strike missions you are flying it dirty. Based on the screen shots you have posted you are using rockets and those take a huge chunk of speed off of it.
All my tests were done clean, in fighter mode as that is how I normally fly it. If I do take ordnance, it is usually just the two 500lbers in the bomb bay as they don't have any performance hit once they are gone. Anything under the wings leaves mounts behind that limit performance. The rockets are the worst offenders for that.
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BulletVI, if you are flying strike missions you are flying it dirty. Based on the screen shots you have posted you are using rockets and those take a huge chunk of speed off of it.
All my tests were done clean, in fighter mode as that is how I normally fly it. If I do take ordnance, it is usually just the two 500lbers in the bomb bay as they don't have any performance hit once they are gone. Anything under the wings leaves mounts behind that limit performance. The rockets are the worst offenders for that.
Yes true but i either use rokets or bombs never both at the same time and since the mossi is a classic low level strike aircraft i use it in that fashion and have achieved some good result's. :)
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Nah Plazus you explained it down to almost the last T there. But what i was referring to was that with its armament compliment that this is probally the tactic used by Moss Pilots in WW2 to gain the necessary speed advantage for the Mission. But on the return trip as the Moss will now be lighter due to the use of it's bombs and rocket's and the use of fuel the Moss will easily reach those high speed's.
But remember Moss Pilot's in WW2 on a mission to destroy a gestapo headquarter's in a french village or town would have only carried 2 x 250lb bombs.
So that the resulting weight was lower and the 250lb bomb was deemed more accurate for low level bombing due to its tail fin design on the bomb. But hey this last paragraph is not relevent. but try the Moss At zero feet armed only with 2 x 250lb bombs and you may get a surprise of its speed capabilities.
Here is Some really worth while reading on the Mossi' Performance it's actual data from the test trial's.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/fpacimq2gkpqpyk/Mossi Performance.pdf
The issue with that test is, as is stated right there in black and white, that the test aircraft is HJ679, and "It is thought therefore that HJ679 may not be truly representative of this type."
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You didn't let the speeds settle. All my tests were acceleration to speed tests, not the less accurate deceleration to speed tests. The old one never reached 321 or 322 on the deck and the new one did reach 319. Your numbers have to be wrong. The difference at 5000ft is odd, but is likely due to a change in the critical altitudes modeled on MIL. I really don't have any info on what the proper speeds at MIL should be.
The problem we have here is that the only charts we know of are for WEP performance. The old Mossie VI WEP was clearly based on a Mosquito Mk VI powered by Merlin 25s with flame dampers. The new Mossie VI's WEP performance is largely extrapolated data from multiple tests.
I cannot agree with you that MIL speed matters more than WEP speed. Once I am in combat I am using WEP pretty heavily and the change there is massively for the better and that is where it counts most.
I did the acceleration tests as well. Plus, simply tracing the charts will show the differences. Even with the old Mossi being 2k heavier it was still faster on MIL. I did not say the the MIL speed matters more, but rather the WEP speed is not what it is cracked up to be since the duration is so short. Yes indeed, it is sweet to gain the extra boost of speed at the lower levels and possibly leave behind that Spit16 or other such dweeby plane, that I wont argue.
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I did the acceleration tests as well. Plus, simply tracing the charts will show the differences. Even with the old Mossi being 2k heavier it was still faster on MIL. I did not say the the MIL speed matters more, but rather the WEP speed is not what it is cracked up to be since the duration is so short. Yes indeed, it is sweet to gain the extra boost of speed at the lower levels and possibly leave behind that Spit16 or other such dweeby plane, that I wont argue.
The only way that wep can truly be effective in the Game is if HTC can devise a way for us to use it like pilots did in ww2 By having that Small lever or push past to engage the wep. by this i can give an example. Wep in WW2 was like in today's modern jet's an afterburner effect it gives you Upto 30% extra power/boost depending on manufacturer's specifications and such not. Thus like today's after burner/ reheat systems you can choose wheather or not you want the full extra 50 % or 5% boost. Now my throttle has a point that when you push to 75% there is some resistance that with a quick push your by it. ( its more in tune with jet combat ) Now wep was like this on a lot of WW2 Planes for ease of use in combat ( one less thing for the pilot to think of ).
Now till such time as HTC can or choose to make wep available like that wep is just going to be a quick and easy thing to use to get you out of a really tight spot i.e that little extra punch for the dive away. :)
Some may argue but hey it's a debate to be had :)
:salute :salute
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There is a big difference between being able to outrun the enemy operationally as opposed to an actual speed race. The Mosquitos were fast enough to be able to hit a target and RTB before scrambling fighters could take off, chase and catch them unless they got lucky enough to be in the vicinity during the raid.
Comments like "out run" can be taken out of context. The Mosquito was not faster than many LW fighters, but it was "fast enough" to be able to keep the distance to a safe margin on the way home.
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Comments like "out run" can be taken out of context. The Mosquito was not faster than many LW fighters, but it was "fast enough" to be able to keep the distance to a safe margin on the way home.
Actually, no, it was bluntly faster that Luftwaffe (and RAF) fighters when introduced. It even maintained that at specific altitudes well into the Mid-War period. Of course it isn't as fast as something like an Fw190D-9 or Bf109K-4 though.
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Actually, no, it was bluntly faster that Luftwaffe (and RAF) fighters when introduced. It even maintained that at specific altitudes well into the Mid-War period. Of course it isn't as fast as something like an Fw190D-9 or Bf109K-4 though.
Ah but remember the mossi didnt stop at the mkVI version there where 12 versions i believe and eatch one faster than the previous version. So like all other aircraft it was continuasly upgraded. like say the Spit mk 9 got a new and faster Merlin engine to keep up with or there abouts the 190-D and the 109K-4. It is also logical to asume that that very same merlin engine was in the Mossi but not 1 there was 2. And gentlemen that is like putting a porche engine in a Mini Cooper S. it just makes it faster. Realy the Luftwaffe's basic tactic to deal with the Mossi was to have roving patrols in the hope of catching them. and often enougth they would only see a squadron of Spitfire's to tangle with. But any plane even the Hurri 1 has a chance at catching the Mossi. As most Mossi missions where Zero feet. Attacking airfields Gestapo headquarters Small factorys next to POW camps rail yard stike's. Targets where the less colateral damage was needed. So all any pilot has to do is Dive on one from altitude and he / she can catch one. :aok :) :rock :salute
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Ah but remember the mossi didnt stop at the mkVI version there where 12 versions i believe and eatch one faster than the previous version. So like all other aircraft it was continuasly upgraded. like say the Spit mk 9 got a new and faster Merlin engine to keep up with or there abouts the 190-D and the 109K-4. It is also logical to asume that that very same merlin engine was in the Mossi but not 1 there was 2. And gentlemen that is like putting a porche engine in a Mini Cooper S. it just makes it faster. Realy the Luftwaffe's basic tactic to deal with the Mossi was to have roving patrols in the hope of catching them. and often enougth they would only see a squadron of Spitfire's to tangle with. But any plane even the Hurri 1 has a chance at catching the Mossi. As most Mossi missions where Zero feet. Attacking airfields Gestapo headquarters Small factorys next to POW camps rail yard stike's. Targets where the less colateral damage was needed. So all any pilot has to do is Dive on one from altitude and he / she can catch one. :aok :) :rock :salute
Wow.I think you assume too much and research too little!
I'll leave it at that.
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Wow.I think you assume too much and research too little!
I'll leave it at that.
reasearching it still :)
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Ah but remember the mossi didnt stop at the mkVI version there where 12 versions i believe and eatch one faster than the previous version. So like all other aircraft it was continuasly upgraded. like say the Spit mk 9 got a new and faster Merlin engine to keep up with or there abouts the 190-D and the 109K-4. It is also logical to asume that that very same merlin engine was in the Mossi but not 1 there was 2. And gentlemen that is like putting a porche engine in a Mini Cooper S. it just makes it faster. Realy the Luftwaffe's basic tactic to deal with the Mossi was to have roving patrols in the hope of catching them. and often enougth they would only see a squadron of Spitfire's to tangle with. But any plane even the Hurri 1 has a chance at catching the Mossi. As most Mossi missions where Zero feet. Attacking airfields Gestapo headquarters Small factorys next to POW camps rail yard stike's. Targets where the less colateral damage was needed. So all any pilot has to do is Dive on one from altitude and he / she can catch one. :aok :) :rock :salute
The fastest any WWII Mosquito got in services was about 430mph for the NF.Mk 30. That version topped out at about 320mph on the deck. The fastest bomber version, the B.Mk XVI and its American engined equivalents topped out at about 416mph. You may notice these speeds are less than the 452mph of the Bf109K-4.
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Yeh but since when will a seasoned Me Bf 109 pilot put his 109 into a dive from 6000 feet to reach 450 + he wouldnt as he would go straight into the ground :)
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I see K4s hit 450 mph all the time. Elevator trim works wonders if the pilot knows how to handle the plane in a dive.
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Yeah i know but even with elevator trim when you see a mossi flying above the tree line in real life and you had to dive from 6000 feet to zero feet would you do it for real. it would be easy to get fixated on the mossi thus forgetting your height and smack you are now saying GOTTEN HIMMEL GUTENTAG GROUND. :)
Sorry if my German is Bad haven't spoke or written it for 13 year's a bit rusty :)
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Bf109K-4 does about 370mph on the deck without a dive. The only Mossie that comes close to that is an FB.Mk VI with 150 octane on anti-diver duty.
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Yeh but since when will a seasoned Me Bf 109 pilot put his 109 into a dive from 6000 feet to reach 450 + he wouldnt as he would go straight into the ground :)
He needs only ~350 to match the mossie on the deck. Practically all WWII fighters will be able to do that. The problem is to happen to be close enough to visually see something flying at 20feet when patrolling at 6k - not so easy. WWII fighters have a huge blind cone under them. To see something close and much lower they have to keep dropping a wing and look down. Unless the patrolling aircraft knows that there is a target nearby and is actively looking for it, the pilot is not likely to keep this up the whole patrol time.
Mossie daytime missions were rare and heavily counted on surprise - that means that there will not be a 109/190 patrol looking for them, in particular not the latest models that could outrun them. The K4s/D9s and their late war brothers would not be the typical LW fighters that a daytime ranger mossie will run into until perhaps very late in the war. On top of that, conditions of low cloud cover were favored for such missions, offering an escape into the cloud layer, where the speed difference was small enough to buy the mossie the time to do that. The 400+ mph mossies were high altitude variants that were flying almost exclusively at night. Very few night fighters were fast enough to catch them and in that case, flying 6k higher and making a diving attack is not an option at night.
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Bf109K-4 does about 370mph on the deck without a dive. The only Mossie that comes close to that is an FB.Mk VI with 150 octane on anti-diver duty.
Is that with or without 1.98ata boost?
In the case of 1.80ata boost, is that with MW50?
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Is that with or without 1.98ata boost?
In the case of 1.80ata boost, is that with MW50?
I really couldn't say. I am not a Bf109 expert by any means. The one in AH does about 370mph on the deck. A Mossie VI on 150 octane did about 375mph on the deck. Next fastest Mossie on the deck would be an undampered, clean Mosquito VI on 100 octane, which would fall in the 355mph on the deck category.
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Intercepting a bomber Mosquito is much harder than just outrunning it.
My thought exactly. Anyone who's attempted to intercept even the relatively slow-moving 4-engine bombers up at altitudes of 15k+ can appreciate how much more difficult the problem becomes when you add an increment of speed to the bomber. not only does the interceptor need speed, it needs climb.
I note, those of you who saw the NatGeo special in which they constructed a radar mockup of the Horten flying wing will recall that the project was undertaken to get an idea of the a/c's radar signature. The conclusion: while the a/c may not have been invisible to radar, its speed combined with its smaller radar x-section meant that detection would occur later - thus compounding the time-to-alt/speed problem facing interceptors.