Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: ink on July 15, 2010, 06:44:07 PM
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Ok said I would not continue this topic in the Dueling ladder thread.
so here is my Idea's of why the "textbook" merge is no good.
First why do we duel?
I suppose it is different reasons for all of us, but I bet the thrill of competition...In something we enjoy doing IE cartoon Pie-lit :D
is right up there in the reason, we DA or join the dueling ladder, to test our skills against others, and to be able to learn how to kill the red guy, as fast as possible, The DA is a training ground for the MA's.
if every fight in the MA was like the DA you will find yourself getting ganged and in the tower fast as....well you get my point....
so with this reasoning, Would I be safe to say that EVERYONE who Duels wants to kill his opponent?
and would be happy if they could do it as fast as possible?
Imagine you are about to face a con you know it is Grizz, or some other Ace, Would you not want to be able to kill them with in the first turn? with out a HO, with them having NO gun solution?
say this is in the MA's and you are deep in nme territory and there is a gonga line of cons coming for you, if you merge with them the same way as the "textbook" merge, well..... we know where that leads...coffee in tower....
but you on the other hand,you Know the merge is where it's at, this will decide the fight, so you merge with every one of these cons coming to you with the intent of
A - avoiding the HO
B- killing them before the next guy gets here
Depending on what the con does,
is he coming straight at you in a classic HO?
is he vectoring his plane to get below you?
is he climbing with speed or de-throttling?
these things will decide where and how you position yourself at the actual "merge".
lets say it just so happens it's a rare HO.... :rofl
or "textbook" merge he is flying straight at you slightly banked to the right (his left) i place him in the center of my forward right screen,
as I pass the con, I am already turning into him and Watching where he goes, This will allow me to decide what move I will do next,
was he full throttle passing me?
did he start to bank up-down-flat turn...
the rest is well....being able to land hits when needed, if ya cant do that, then the best merge in the world is squat.
(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/fieldsofink/merge-3.jpg)
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here's a nice merge demo by Warkat. Remember him?
http://www.youtube.com/user/LordWarkat#p/u/16/psGuWKDX__o (http://www.youtube.com/user/LordWarkat#p/u/16/psGuWKDX__o)
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Merge is one of my weakest areas IMO. I lose more fights there than anywhere else. I usually fly well enough to keep the bad guy from getting an advantage on me (usually) but when I hose the merge, I'm just flying on borrowed time. I try to get lateral separation and lead turn usually, I don't too much care for the pass then move type of merge really, but when the con is diving you pretty much have to dive also or you're giving up angles right away. Some of that can be counteracted somewhat by using lead turns, but if he turns a little to take your separation away while still diving, and then you lead loop him, you've just given up a big chunk of angle right there. If I'm fighting someone over and over, or different guys in the DA in informal 1v1s, I like to try out different stuff each fight. I just haven't come up with anything that I feel like works consistently outside of the nose to nose and jockey for position merge. It's a balancing act on trying to get separation and using a lead turn or loop, and not letting the bad guy take that separation away, while also trying not to give up too much e in the process.
Just an area where I'm the most weak I think and need work. Good topic Ink!
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Merging in a duel situation is completely different then merging in the MA IMO. In a duel you only have 1 con to content with and keep an eye on. The MA on the other hand, you have to not only watch your guy but any others coming your way. The last thing i want to do when I'm outnumbered is to get to tight with one guy. If in a 51 I'd rather keep it fast and try to pull each one away by themselves to set up a better 1 on 1. If I don't do that then the planes like Spitfires and nikis and such would just turn me till I have nothing to work with.
I guess what I mean is, my merges in the MA all depend on what and how many I'm fighting. There is no set "do all" merge in that case. Dueling is harder for me because it's almost always in the same plane and fuel/ gun loadout as the other guy. That and i'm in those fights til the death where as the MA I can pull away and reset if need be...usually.
I've been trying to get out of the 51 more and into the 38 and am finding that the 38 seems to like a different, slower more vertical type of fight then what I'm used to. This also has had an effect on how I would merge with other planes.
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Ink, if you study some duelers you will notice alot of us don't just fly level into a crossing merge. Often both planes are using some form of lead turn and displacement prior to merge but the end result is still a nose-on-nose crossing merge. The old style of duel merge was more like what you describe, two planes fly level till they cross without dipping wingtips. Nowadays most often you will find alot more complex and tricky merge angles from people. That being true, the angle off approach is still a very dodgy tactic to employ in a DA merge. It's just asking for a quick death to not keep your nose on till flight paths cross. MA fighting is different, but the same priciples apply. Merging with cons in the Ma like you describe works, but only if the enemy is not sharp.
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At merge speeds 300+ and proper offset (separation, either vertical, horizontal or both) you start your lead turn quite early, but not too early to get belly shot (timing is the key). Hard to get HOed that way either in DA or in MA.
As to why we merge in DA differently? Duels are more of a sport, some fairness is required. Besides, after certain skill level, HOer has minor advantage. If both would go for HO (jousting), duel would end up even before fight starts, so, pretty pointless.
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If people are interested in improving their merge tactics, Rocketman's old merge lectures are a great resource.
Mastering the Merge (http://www.netaces.org/mastermerge/mastermerge.htm)
Even though it was written over 14 years ago for AW, it still pertains to AH.
ack-ack
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Hey, thanks for the link Akak :aok
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If people are interested in improving their merge tactics, Rocketman's old merge lectures are a great resource.
Mastering the Merge (http://www.netaces.org/mastermerge/mastermerge.htm)
Even though it was written over 14 years ago for AW, it still pertains to AH.
ack-ack
I remember printing that out and reading it many, many times over 14 years ago trying to figure out how to fly.
I also remember doing a whole heck of a lot of hand wagglin' trying to wrap my brains around it.
Great stuff.
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If people are interested in improving their merge tactics, Rocketman's old merge lectures are a great resource.
Mastering the Merge (http://www.netaces.org/mastermerge/mastermerge.htm)
Even though it was written over 14 years ago for AW, it still pertains to AH.
ack-ack
I remember when he was writing that. Talked about it at length when he was working it up. He was helping me learn by killing me over and over and over and over again...
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At merge speeds 300+ and proper offset (separation, either vertical, horizontal or both) you start your lead turn quite early, but not too early to get belly shot (timing is the key). Hard to get HOed that way either in DA or in MA.
As to why we merge in DA differently? Duels are more of a sport, some fairness is required. Besides, after certain skill level, HOer has minor advantage. If both would go for HO (jousting), duel would end up even before fight starts, so, pretty pointless.
Bighorn, I want to hook up with you again one of these days and work on more merge and fight type of stuff. The stuff we've done before has been pretty helpful to me in the ma and in duels too.
I thought in this thread we were discussing only da merges though, obviously, if you go that nose in to someone in the ma, you'll get hoed more often than not.
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"...By initiating the turn into your opponent, you have gained "angles" on him..."
(quoted from the link Ack-Ack put up.)
this sounds an awful lot like what I describe. :headscratch:
Merging in a duel situation is completely different then merging in the MA IMO. In a duel you only have 1 con to content with and keep an eye on. The MA on the other hand, you have to not only watch your guy but any others coming your way. The last thing i want to do when I'm outnumbered is to get to tight with one guy. If in a 51 I'd rather keep it fast and try to pull each one away by themselves to set up a better 1 on 1. If I don't do that then the planes like Spitfires and nikis and such would just turn me till I have nothing to work with.
I guess what I mean is, my merges in the MA all depend on what and how many I'm fighting. There is no set "do all" merge in that case. Dueling is harder for me because it's almost always in the same plane and fuel/ gun loadout as the other guy. That and i'm in those fights til the death where as the MA I can pull away and reset if need be...usually.
I've been trying to get out of the 51 more and into the 38 and am finding that the 38 seems to like a different, slower more vertical type of fight then what I'm used to. This also has had an effect on how I would merge with other planes.
you should think of the DA as training for MA, thats what I do, and I deal with a merge no matter where I am the same, the intent of making a kill with out putting myself in there gun solution.
Ink, if you study some duelers you will notice alot of us don't just fly level into a crossing merge. Often both planes are using some form of lead turn and displacement prior to merge but the end result is still a nose-on-nose crossing merge. The old style of duel merge was more like what you describe, two planes fly level till they cross without dipping wingtips. Nowadays most often you will find alot more complex and tricky merge angles from people. That being true, the angle off approach is still a very dodgy tactic to employ in a DA merge. It's just asking for a quick death to not keep your nose on till flight paths cross. MA fighting is different, but the same priciples apply. Merging with cons in the Ma like you describe works, but only if the enemy is not sharp.
thats how it was in DA, when I first joined and I see a lot still doing it, I have dueled Grizz and he usually does not do it, when I saw the fights with TJ I was surprised by the Merge's.
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If you master the flat turn merge like only a few in the game you get the first shot always, just depends on your gunnery. The basic text book merge we all know of is really good if you know how to work your throttle and turn in early for the next turn. As far as killing your enemy quick and to the point I believe just takes a lot of practice and many 1000s of duels to get your throttle, flap management, elevator trim, gunnery, and most important angles down. Duel a top 10 stick in the game 100 times and watch there angles most people don't even understand the concept of angles until they do that.
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"...By initiating the turn into your opponent, you have gained "angles" on him..."
(quoted from the link Ack-Ack put up.)
this sounds an awful lot like what I describe. :headscratch:
Easier said than done. The problem is that as you're gaining seperation your opponent will keep his nose on you gaining angles while negating your attempt to seperate. Double trouble.
As I said in the other thread, that's why DA merges are almost always diving merges. The only way to gain angles is to get below your opponent then nose up losing speed as he's gaining it and (in the MA) at the same time giving him a high deflection shot to try to track.
In dissimilar aircraft you can do what you say, particularily if you're in the better turning plane which I know you usually are. In a similar plane match-up that will get you killed against a good stick.
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My personal experience after countless duels is that a tight immelman can/will beat a flat turn merge more times than not. I think that it gives you another dimension to utilize. It also gives you a bit more E to work with. The trick in mastering immel vs flat turn is either avoiding the shot that you sacrifice to your opponent if you try to rope him, or pulling tight enough to enter a scissors type fight.
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here's a nice merge demo by Warkat. Remember him?
http://www.youtube.com/user/LordWarkat#p/u/16/psGuWKDX__o (http://www.youtube.com/user/LordWarkat#p/u/16/psGuWKDX__o)
he's tooling around in Il-2 at the moment, heaps of good WarKat videos out there.
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My personal experience after countless duels is that a tight immelman can/will beat a flat turn merge more times than not. I think that it gives you another dimension to utilize. It also gives you a bit more E to work with. The trick in mastering immel vs flat turn is either avoiding the shot that you sacrifice to your opponent if you try to rope him, or pulling tight enough to enter a scissors type fight.
TonyJoey's quote is golden :aok
But in the absence of a proper counter, if one masters a really good, tight, flat turn merge, especially with an opponent intent on a fight in the phone booth, the flat turn will achieve and considerable advantage if followed up with proper guns and verticle moves. One can use this tactic up to say...30 degress of roll angle, meaning if you get under you can match the turn but stay flatter...ie UNDER the bandits turn. But if you go more than 30 deg then you are doing the "pitch back" which is not a flat turn merge.
As for multiple con engagment in the MA:
When I merge 1 vs many in a conga line or closly grouped (flying the 109k4) I will shallow dive enough to get 400+ and pull all of them around to my six with easy turns (sometimes faking a break turn). Then, let the slow ones drop back and fight the fast ones in a running scissor. This way I can keep them all behind me, in sight and at a disadvantage. If I were to turn hard and fight it would be istant gang bang. But keeping close enough, always jiving as bait and staying in shallow climb and scissoring for overshoots I can sometimes out smart 3 or 4 bandits.
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Most of my main arena merges have been Head-on avoidance's :joystick: :lol :lol
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Quoted for truth "My personal experience after countless duels is that a tight immelman can/will beat a flat turn merge more times than not. I think that it gives you another dimension to utilize. It also gives you a bit more E to work with."
<S> and well said tony!
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My personal experience after countless duels is that a tight immelman can/will beat a flat turn merge more times than not. I think that it gives you another dimension to utilize. It also gives you a bit more E to work with. The trick in mastering immel vs flat turn is either avoiding the shot that you sacrifice to your opponent if you try to rope him, or pulling tight enough to enter a scissors type fight.
The Pitch-back maneuver will nail you every time, especially against verticle happy airframes ( 109s, P38s, etc. )
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Most of my main arena merges have been Head-on avoidance's :joystick: :lol :lol
yup this is my point if ya fly/duel in the mains the way most do in DA, tower bound you are.
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I like the quintiple immel. :D :D :D :D :D
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I like the quintiple immel. :D :D :D :D :D
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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The Pitch-back maneuver will nail you every time, especially against verticle happy airframes ( 109s, P38s, etc. )
:headscratch:
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yup this is my point if ya fly/duel in the mains the way most do in DA, tower bound you are.
That is pretty much true. What I am starting to think of as the key is the ability to shift gears between MA style flying and fighting, and DA style. The really key within a key is the ability to shift between them on the fly as needed. They require different types of thinking, and different types of maneuvers too usually because of the pickers and whatnot. The days when I am shifting gears back and forth effectively are the days I do well in the MA, the other days, not so much.
I think that getting the shift down is really the key though, and that's what the really really good sticks, the top tier guys if you will, do better than anyone else.
I just have to work on it a lot more, but I'm sure that I'll get it.
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I like the quintiple immel. :D :D :D :D :D
Honestly, there are some times when I have enough energy (P-38J/L only required 400mph IAS) to do one just for chits and giggles. I do find myself using the triple Immel more often lately on a merge for quick rope. You'd be surprised at how many will actually try and follow you up.
ack-ack
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Quoted for truth "My personal experience after countless duels is that a tight immelman can/will beat a flat turn merge more times than not. I think that it gives you another dimension to utilize. It also gives you a bit more E to work with."
<S> and well said tony!
The 'secret' on the flat turn merge is to not do a flat turn but to do a shallow yo-yo. Also, the second trick is to get the other guy to dive down on to you, where you can follow up with a reverse and get him with a tater.
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The 'secret' on the flat turn merge is to not do a flat turn but to do a shallow yo-yo. Also, the second trick is to get the other guy to dive down on to you, where you can follow up with a reverse and get him with a tater.
Like I said the trick is pulling tight enough to enter a scissors type fight. Going low, if done properly, is the right move and will end in a very quick fight.
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I do understand your point Ink, and that it relates to Ma not DA. In the Ma we are usualy either attacking or defending, very rarely 'merging' with anyone. The concept of 'the merge' relates to me a situation where there are only two players. In free fighting, with multiple numbers, there is only attack or defence. It's only when two players face off alone that a 'merge' is even to be considered, imo.
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I do understand your point Ink, and that it relates to Ma not DA. In the Ma we are usualy either attacking or defending, very rarely 'merging' with anyone. The concept of 'the merge' relates to me a situation where there are only two players. In free fighting, with multiple numbers, there is only attack or defence. It's only when two players face off alone that a 'merge' is even to be considered, imo.
every engagement whether it be in DA or MA has a merge, does not matter, if you are engaged with multi cons do you not, watch out for when the next attack comes, and then avoid or get under him, there is a merge in every fight no matter the cons.
I fly every fight in DA or MA the same, (besides HOing against Multi cons or zero's in MA)
I was headed to an nme field one day, I saw a lone con, so we engage one another, I do my thing, he did not shoot at my face but did the typical "text-book" merge, he died in a half turn, so I keep going to the nme field, it just so happened that one con after another attacked me, not as a horde but a few minutes between each contact, I killed 8 before I ran out of ammo,each and every one was because
A- most came in head on (text-book)
B I flew the merges the way I always do.
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If you turn away and offer a shot instead of flying head on is it really a merge or is it a defence move? The guy shooting is in attack, the guy turning to set up angles is in defence for the moment the planes will cross, there is no merge is there? Do we define 'merge' as any time when the planes cross paths for the first time, or define it as when both pilot are remaining in attack posture untill 3-9 overshoot?
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If you turn away and offer a shot instead of flying head on is it really a merge or is it a defence move? The guy shooting is in attack, the guy turning to set up angles is in defence for the moment the planes will cross, there is no merge is there? Do we define 'merge' as any time when the planes cross paths for the first time, or define it as when both pilot are remaining in attack posture untill 3-9 overshoot?
I would say that if someone turned his back on another at same alt it is dumb... :D
seriously I would define the "merge" as when two cons attack one another, the merge begins at least 1.5 out from one another, does not matter the alt of ether con,
when I say get angles before the merge I am referring to the 1.5 distance of nme con, getting those angles before the crossing of the two planes, rolling, going inverted confusing the con as to what your intentions are.
If he is coming straight at you, and when you pass each other if he is still straight, but you have vectored your plane in a position of angles you are already in a "turn" now I don't mean a hard E sapping turn, unless that is what it takes to pull on the inside if nme, if he just goes straight you can point your nose up and gain ALT, and set up for when they bank back, if when you pass them and they bank hard to come around, you will already be in a position and it will be a lot less time for you to get the shot, while denying them a shot.
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If people are interested in improving their merge tactics, Rocketman's old merge lectures are a great resource.
Mastering the Merge (http://www.netaces.org/mastermerge/mastermerge.htm)
Even though it was written over 14 years ago for AW, it still pertains to AH.
ack-ack
Excellent article. I found out about several mistakes I am making from reading it.. Thanks Ack-Ack :salute
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TonyJoey's quote is golden :aok
But in the absence of a proper counter, if one masters a really good, tight, flat turn merge, especially with an opponent intent on a fight in the phone booth, the flat turn will achieve and considerable advantage if followed up with proper guns and verticle moves. One can use this tactic up to say...30 degress of roll angle, meaning if you get under you can match the turn but stay flatter...ie UNDER the bandits turn. But if you go more than 30 deg then you are doing the "pitch back" which is not a flat turn merge.
As for multiple con engagment in the MA:
When I merge 1 vs many in a conga line or closly grouped (flying the 109k4) I will shallow dive enough to get 400+ and pull all of them around to my six with easy turns (sometimes faking a break turn). Then, let the slow ones drop back and fight the fast ones in a running scissor. This way I can keep them all behind me, in sight and at a disadvantage. If I were to turn hard and fight it would be istant gang bang. But keeping close enough, always jiving as bait and staying in shallow climb and scissoring for overshoots I can sometimes out smart 3 or 4 bandits.
When is your signature "Cross-controlled Barrel Roll Merge" appropriate? :D
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I remember printing that out and reading it many, many times over 14 years ago trying to figure out how to fly.
I also remember doing a whole heck of a lot of hand wagglin' trying to wrap my brains around it.
Great stuff.
(Bypassing other posts after Lute's)
This is very good stuff. As I learned and taught it, there are only three types of combat merges: "Positive", "Negative" and "Neutral" to put simple names on them. Each is defined by the relative E state of the opponents, but the name relates to whichever pilot is considering it.
In other words, I'm in a "Positive" merge with an opponent if I have a significant advantage in E state over him, primarily (but not exclusively) considering relative altitudes. Conversely, he would be in a "Negative" merge from his viewpoint. If our E states are relatively equal in terms of altitude and airspeed, then we are essentially Co-E, or both of us are in a "Neutral" merge.
Why is this important? Because, for each type of merge the initial objective of the pilot is different, and there are different ACM that should be performed (and some that should not) in each situation.
Consider you are in a Positive merge (your bandit is in a Negative merge) [by the way, a merge does not automatically mean you are heading directly towards each other, but that you are closing in someway towards an engagement] then your initial objective is to close for a guns solution while MAINTAINING control and initiative of the fight until you reach it.
If you are in a Negative merge, then you're ONLY initial objective is to achieve a Co-E state any way you can, BEFORE attempting to maneuver for a guns solution. Assuming you have not been blindly jumped by a bandit at less than 2K, you should turn away to achieve separation or reduce the rate of closure. At the same time you climb to try to achieve a Co-E state, which means gaining altitude. When the bandit attacks during this (and depending upon A/C types, etc.) you do an avoidance ACM that will minimize your E loss (and possibly maximize his), then IF he hasn't made a drastic offensive ACM mistake that you can pounce on, you continue to climb for Co-Alt at a minimum. Rinse and repeat as needed until you reach Co-E and can turn equally with him.
If you are Neutral then your objective is to LEAD the fight, meaning you plan and maneuver your approach into the merge (which in this case is often HO) so as to gain OODA Loop (look it up :D) advantage over your opponent. Or in other words, you want to Lead Turn first and best. There are tricks, especially in the AH HO-centric world, to do this.
The ultimate goal is always to get the kill shot, but each type of merge requires different objectives to reach it. If you know this, and fly accordingly, you won't be climbing up to bandits just to get killed or overshooting an easy kill to the same result.
There are more situational details that help define these merges and must be considered, and some specific manuevers to consider using in each, but this is the basic thumbnail explanation.
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If you turn away and offer a shot instead of flying head on is it really a merge or is it a defence move? The guy shooting is in attack, the guy turning to set up angles is in defence for the moment the planes will cross, there is no merge is there? Do we define 'merge' as any time when the planes cross paths for the first time, or define it as when both pilot are remaining in attack posture untill 3-9 overshoot?
Good point mechanic. My 2cents.
Merge:
1. When two planes (enemy or not) both pass inside the largest turn radius of the two planes.
If this is done neither plane can turn immediately to the others six.
It requires a second turn to engage.
2. When two planes pass within CLOSE range(3 plane lengths) and at the same altitude for the purpose of engaging into a 1v1 combat duel, where the fight continues within in close range until there is a victor.
Therefor, if the definition is not met, it is not a merge, but a "pass".
A "pass" is crossing the 3/9 line without entering the turn radius of the bandit.
Simple definition:
merge = close, denying separation
pass = separation, denying closure.
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this is getting way to technical for a game I play away from work....eekkk dang engineering types
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this is getting way to technical for a game I play away from work....eekkk dang engineering types
I was thinking the same thing :)
If I know the guy I'm merging with, I pass as close as I can. If I don't know, I work to avoid the HO shot.
If it's a 109K, I figure the fight is going up. If it's a Spit, most time it's going to be a flat turning fight. That also applies to most N1Ks. Ki-84 drivers tend to go vertical. The list goes on. If it's a better stick then me, I'm in trouble. Most times I do OK otherwise :)
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I was thinking the same thing :)
If I know the guy I'm merging with, I pass as close as I can. If I don't know, I work to avoid the HO shot.
If it's a 109K, I figure the fight is going up. If it's a Spit, most time it's going to be a flat turning fight. That also applies to most N1Ks. Ki-84 drivers tend to go vertical. The list goes on. If it's a better stick then me, I'm in trouble. Most times I do OK otherwise :)
:lol
good way of looking at it, for me though, I am too competitive to think of it like this, the "if it's a better stick then me" does not work for me cuz I want to be the best there is, the best I can be, every time I fly I want to learn more, No I am not talking about the game as a "whole" I could care less about GV's, dropping bombs, pt boats, or any thing else, hell I think once in about 4 years I have flown out side a "fighter sortie"
and that was to up an Il2. :headscratch: ( I think)
I know the fight is usually won in the merge so I have set out to perfect the "merge".
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Trying to merge in the MA is the fastest way back to the tower. :rolleyes:
Occationally i've been able to avoid the bullets from the head on, surviving after that still leaves me 50/50
No matter what sourses you read, every pilot reacts differently, it's all about guessing whats going to happen in the near future. Prediction skills will keep you alive the longest. ( and shooting back in the HO pass )
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If you master the flat turn merge like only a few in the game you get the first shot always, just depends on your gunnery. The basic text book merge we all know of is really good if you know how to work your throttle and turn in early for the next turn. As far as killing your enemy quick and to the point I believe just takes a lot of practice and many 1000s of duels to get your throttle, flap management, elevator trim, gunnery, and most important angles down. Duel a top 10 stick in the game 100 times and watch there angles most people don't even understand the concept of angles until they do that.
If Im not too late to see your flat turn merge Im going to rope the crap out of you and have you begging for scraps below me while I BnZ you to death.
That is one thing I find about alot of the good duelers have.....a bunch of different merges. About a year or so ago I was dueling Grizz and he kept getting me with a flat turn merge.....I asked how do I beat it....he said either flat turn with to start scissors or E merge...I tried flat turning and he just E merged me....
Im horrible on the merge BTW....always set myself up for failure :(
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If Im not too late to see your flat turn merge Im going to rope the crap out of you and have you begging for scraps below me while I BnZ you to death.
That is one thing I find about alot of the good duelers have.....a bunch of different merges. About a year or so ago I was dueling Grizz and he kept getting me with a flat turn merge.....I asked how do I beat it....he said either flat turn with to start scissors or E merge...I tried flat turning and he just E merged me....
Im horrible on the merge BTW....always set myself up for failure :(
me to Junk I'm still practicing but that's where I lose my fights at right now.
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I know I need to practice my merges too, I am still at the point where I am experimenting with different styles of merge tactics. But I don't have the proper "3D skill" to see my mistakes, so it is hard to learn anything without proper trainers help..
I did a couple of duels together with a guy in DA a few weeks back, and he did a flat turn merge that I never quite figured out before I went boom two turns later.. I tried several different merge tactics, but the result was always coffee break in tower after a couple of turns.. Followed by a "Quack" in the txt box.. :confused:
When I merge in a duel situation with pre-agreed rules such as cold merge I go head on and merge by the book. But when in the MA's I never merge head on like that. I just try to stay fast and fly smart, it becomes a matter of staying alive first, getting a shot is second priority.
When in a DA duelling situation it is like bighorn said, alot more sport in it..
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Really Good Stuff.....ty everyone <S>
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I know I need to practice my merges too, I am still at the point where I am experimenting with different styles of merge tactics. But I don't have the proper "3D skill" to see my mistakes, so it is hard to learn anything without proper trainers help..
I did a couple of duels together with a guy in DA a few weeks back, and he did a flat turn merge that I never quite figured out before I went boom two turns later.. I tried several different merge tactics, but the result was always coffee break in tower after a couple of turns.. Followed by a "Quack" in the txt box.. :confused:
When I merge in a duel situation with pre-agreed rules such as cold merge I go head on and merge by the book. But when in the MA's I never merge head on like that. I just try to stay fast and fly smart, it becomes a matter of staying alive first, getting a shot is second priority.
When in a DA duelling situation it is like bighorn said, alot more sport in it..
dont worry about dying in the MA's if you fly like that you will never push yourself or plane, and when it is time to get down and dirty you will not be able to, I would suggest that you fly to fight in the MA, and dont worry about dying.
seriously I get mad at myself if I do not get killed, I want to see my burning wreckage.....BUT I have been flying like this since the beginning, around 04, and now 95% of the time I will easily win 1vs1 and a lot of times I can win 2-4 vs me. if I flew worrying about dying I would never got to the level I am at.
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OK, for the flat turn merge people, listen up. All things being equal (plane, speed, pilot skill, etc.) the fastest merge turn is... vertical!
The second slowest is the flat turn. :t Since there are only 3 directions available, it's also the best after the vertical. The very slowest is the downward turn.
The primary reason for this is simply gravity. Without going into all the additional setup and related info in detail, essentially going vertical is faster because you use gravity to reduce your airspeed to the proper Corner Velocity for your aircraft and, using throttle control properly pull your nose through the apex of the turn quicker, regaining airspeed as needed as you come back down. Your actual turn radius is very short, and you turn quicker getting your nose around the 180 dgrees, and with E to regain your airspeed quickly.
In a flat turn, gravity remains as a constant drag stealing your E, and eventually reduce your airspeed. And what E you lose in the turn you do not immediately regain.
Now some people might think that a downward turn (usually in the form of a Split S) would be the fastest because initially gravity would be helping to increase your airspeed. However, too much speed is bad as it causes a wider turn radius even if you shut throttle first, plus you are now lower than when you went into the merge.
This is why in most dueling merges you see 90% of the pilots going vertical. Now, that is not to say that there might not be a specific tactical situation where a different turn was better, like the other guy makes a real dumb move that only a flat turn will put you into position quicker, but by and large, the vertical turn is the fastest and best. Master it!
One of the things a pilot should be aware of is that, though it has its uses, airspeed (meaning high airspeed for your aircraft) is your enemy. It's only good for getting to or from a fight quickly. Having the right airspeed is more important.
In conjunction first, another very important concept to learn is Cornering Velocity which is simply the correct or optimum speed for a particular aircraft to turn (thinking initially a flat 180) allowing it to do it in the quickest time which is a result of the right turn radius at the right speed. You should learn the Cornering Velocity for any aircraft you dogfight in.
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OK, for the flat turn merge people, listen up. All things being equal (plane, speed, pilot skill, etc.) the fastest merge turn is... vertical!
Depending on the situation, I'll give the other guy the vertical. Nothing is more boring that two guys dueling, both trying to get beneath the other guy on the merge and Immeling until one of them either stalls out or makes his Immel too wide.
If you can keep your speed up and pull just 2 Gs in a flat turn, you can maintain your speed and reset the fight by being under the other guy with more overall energy. It depends on how hard he pulls on that Immelman, however.
Even if the other guy is real gentle on his Immel, putting yourself in a bad spot to mix things up is worth it.
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If you are playing your part properly you will not be merging head on, evar.
That is to say: If you are merging head on then you have already contributed 50% of your all to losing the fight.
In other words: Typically I will have enough steam going on to blow quite through the unwanted HO merge with a complimentary jiggle to throw off the inevitable HO shot and I will just keep on going until I can find some sucker that will let me cruise up his tail pipe and give him a blast of lead love. Wait....that didn't sound quite right :P
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Depending on the situation, I'll give the other guy the vertical. Nothing is more boring that two guys dueling, both trying to get beneath the other guy on the merge and Immeling until one of them either stalls out or makes his Immel too wide.
Don't forget purposely going head on because you know it is a duel and the other guy won't shoot. I still enjoy it though.
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Don't forget purposely going head on because you know it is a duel and the other guy won't shoot. I still enjoy it though.
bout time you joined the convo....
the ONLY time that is the case rock solid is in a Duel with someone you know, hell even then you are not guaranteed to not get a HO, that is why I hate the fly by wingtip to wingtip.
I think the duels in DA should prepare you for MA, and we both know in MA HO is gonna happen a lot more then the honorable duel, and If someone learns to merge properly they dont ever have to worry about the HO.
If ya get two guys that do Merge without going straight at each other the fight is usually awesome and much more enjoyable then the typical fight.