Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Muzzy on July 25, 2010, 12:48:24 AM
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I've been playing for three weeks now and have gotten a general feel for how things work in the game and what works best for me. It appears that I am most successful in combats under 5k while using Brewsters or FM2's, and especially successful in tight turning furballs. With the Brew I can usually get at least 1 kill and a few assists per flight, and I scored a record (for me) 3 kills during one base defense and landed with a large chunk of my wing missing.
This is all well and good for short flight base defense, but i find that I am floundering in the 10-5k alt range, or in "open" situations where there's a lot of vertical action and BnZ going on. In those situations I am flying Spits or F6's, and having much more difficulty maintaining control of the aircraft and saddling up on a target. It's possible that I'm tending to use flat turns too much at high speed and stalling out.
I intend to consult a trainer on improving these deficiencies, but I thought I would post here to see if anyone has any advice on the following:
1. Does anyone have any tips for improving BnZ and/or energy tactics? I've been consulting the reading material (including a copy of Fighter Tactics by Shaw) but any bits of additional advice would help.
2. After speaking with a couple of people in the TA (I think it was Ghostly and Blooz....sorry if I'm getting that wrong) I'm trying to fly the Spit IX in order to preserve what I do well (turnfighting) and improve on my deficiencies (everything else). Are there any other aircraft besides the Spits that I might want to look at? I'm looking for good turning (instant and sustained) and moderate speed. Also, are there any recommendations for aircraft that would be good to use while learning BnZ or energy fighting? I know the P51 is mentioned but I'd like to hear other opinions.
3. On the Spit IX, I've read that it's better just to use the cannons for most shots and add the .303's when you've got the target zeroed at close range. Is this the general consensus? Or does anyone have other opinions?
My goal is to become proficient in as many aspects of the game as I can, so any advice would be very welcome.
-Muzzy
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Radio Quote of the Week
"Wow they're throwing everything at us today!"
"Well, I haven't seen a kitchen sink yet, but....oh wait...crap! Low Kitchen Sink!"
"Watch it! That Kitchen Sink has energy!"
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Does anyone have any tips for improving BnZ and/or energy tactics? I've been consulting the reading material (including a copy of Fighter Tactics by Shaw) but any bits of additional advice would help.
You'll hear people talk about performing manoeuvres 'smoothly' what this really means is preserving the maximum amount of E through out the manoeuvres, thats the difference between good and great sticks, in most cases they are performing the same manoeuvre.
I intend to consult a trainer on improving these deficiencies
Your best idea yet :aok make sure you do wait for a trainer, the training arena seems to attract a lot of well intentioned but misleading 'wannabe' trainers. Theres a reason they are not trainers and that trainers are trainers :lol if you catch my drift :banana: good luck
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BNZ is the art of knowing when you can acquire a guns solution on your target during your pass, and when you can't. A master learns how to position for his firing pass so that he always (or near always) place his aircraft in a firing position at some point during his pass without giving up excessive energy in the process.
BNZ is the art of being able to predict with a fair degree of accuracy where your target is going to place his aircraft and at what point. A master has learned how to evaluate with great precision where his opponent wants to go, and to force his opponent to be where he wants him to be when he's not going there, when he wants him to be there.
You mention "saddling up" and learning BNZ in the same sentence - but there is no saddling up if you are BNZ'ing. There are only snapshot opportunities.
I hesitate to question the trainers method's as they know a heck of a lot more than I, but I wouldn't generally consider using the Spit IX to learn/teach someone to BNZ. The Spit IX isn't fast enough, and has fairly poor high speed handling (compared to the true BNZ'ers). This is not a dis on the Spit IX, it's quite literally my second favorite aircraft to fly, and is often what I choose when I'm taking off from a base that's already capped and I know that Corsair is unlikely to be able to acquire sufficient E to hold it's own.
I fly the Corsair almost exclusively, but to teach/learn BNZ I'd suggest the P51. It has good energy retention, good visibility, is relatively easy to maintain in trim, and punishes over-handling mistakes, but not too harshly.
E-fighting isn't BNZ. It's different, in that you are working to force your opponents to deplete his energy state relative to your own, such that in the end, you have energy to position for the killing shot, and he has none left to evade. To do so successfully requires mastering the art of using energy states against your opponent throughout the entire flight regime. If I want to E-fight, I tend to use a 109. E-fighting doesn't tend to work well in the MA by the way, as it can require significant time to wear down a good opponent - and while you are doing so 276 of his brethren will be gunning for you, and then there are your own 276 countrymates to help out whether you need it or not.
All in my humble opinion, of course. I'm not the best pilot in the game, and other's may have more insightful view. I know durn well that there are others who are better pilots in all flight regimes than I.
<S>
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Other way around muzzy on the spit guns.
Use the mg's at long range to make em turn.
Save the cannons for when they are inside 300 and you have a "Good" shot, then pour em in till he goes poof or big parts fall off.
And yes it was me you talked to. :)
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E-fighting isn't BNZ. It's different, in that you are working to force your opponents to deplete his energy state relative to your own, such that in the end, you have energy to position for the killing shot, and he has none left to evade.
Actually BNZ is an E-fight, just as Ghastly mentions the point is to get your opponent to lose NRG relative to your own. That's basically the definition of E-fighting but he's also right, there are different forms of the NRG fight just as their are different forms of racing. The BNZ sort of equates to a drag race (a series of short, high-speed dashes) while getting into a turn fight with the same objective (deplete his NRG while maintaining or building your NRG advantage) can be more like a stock car race.
The NRG fight is generally harder to master than the angles fight for two main reasons. First, people have the tendency to see just about any potential shot opportunity (i.e., snapshots or HO's) as worth taking regardless of the Pk. They'll crank on a bunch of G, chop throttle, or pay no attention to what their position will be after the attempt. These actions cost the alleged NRG fighter both E and position advantages while turning the desired NRG fight into an angles fight prematurely. The NRG fighter needs to be disciplined and patient, he can't just put the lift vector on the target and pull. Second is failing to keep the pressure on the adversary allowing him to separate and regain his E. This is the problem with typical BnZ tactics.
You notice that previously I mentioned only the loss of only E and position, not angles? The reason is that in an E fight you want your adversary to generate angles because that's an indication he's burning E. If you're flying your E fight effectively who cares if he's got 90 degrees on you if he can't get his nose on you for a shot? Effectively, BTW, means staying at or near your corner velocity and, generally speaking, keeping your nose higher than he does so you gradually work in some altitude (stored E) advantage, using the vertical and, most importantly keeping the pressure on.
A good tip is to use the angles he generates against you to help you judge how much E he's burned. Say you're in an engagement and the adversary does an early turn on you and has about 20 degrees on you at the first pass. The next pass he has 50 and the next he has 90. Well, those angles had to come from somewhere (assuming you didn't goober things up and give them to him or give him too much time to recover). That somewhere is E so you now know he's got less E than he started with and that tells you some things. For instance, if he's slow you've taken away his vertical fight so if you transition to a vertical fight he can't compete very well. Using the vertical you gain position advantage and, at the right time, convert that to angles for the kill.
As for keeping pressure on your adversary, you do this by NOT extending too far. Many think they're NRG fighting when they extend as far as 3k, 4k or even 5 or 6K. This is very poor flying as the adversary has plenty of time to climb and rebuild his NRG state and he only has to deal with what amounts to a series of individual BNZ attacks. Instead, you want to have enough separation to deny the adversary an early turn on your reversal, generally that's about 1k to 1.5k. Also use a nose-high reversal to bring your nose around quickly and get it down to accelerate back to your target speed. If your adversary is chasing you that's good, go ahead out to 1-1.5 but if he turns away or dives then immediately reverse, that keeps you close and the pressure on.
A simple NRG fight can look something like a Lazy 8 where the NRG fighter's only high-G turns are the reversals at the ends of the 8 while the adversary is turning high-G circles at the center trying to get snapshots or defend. After your reversal you threaten your adversary with nose position but you don't want to blow your E so limit your turns to low-G and perhaps 20 or 30 degrees of heading change. You have to threaten the adversary here, you can't just do high-speed fly-bys. He has to either react to you with a high-G defense or attempt to gain a snapshot. In both cases he burns E. Do this a few times, look at the angles and judge your adversary's NRG state. When it looks like he's beat down the NRG fighter turns in nose low with WEP, aims for a point below his adversary but rather than continuing in the Lazy 8 the fighter instead goes up vertical through the adversary to gain a postion above. Properly done the adversary doesn't have the E to follow and the NRG fighter simply rolls to place his lift vector behind the adversary and converts the position advantage to angles for the kill. This is just one example but a fairly easy one for an aspiring NRG fighter to master. (It also used to be a favorite of mine in an F14 vs an A4...sort of the equivalent of a P38 vs Zeke)
That said, the significance of NRG is key in every engagement so we should always be aware of our NRG state vs his even if we're in a pure angles fight. There is no definitive line differentiating NRG and angles fights, most fights are a combination of both. The NRG fight becomes an angles fight when you achieve a positional advantage (using NRG techniques) where your stored NRG can then be converted to angles for a kill shot.
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Your best idea yet :aok make sure you do wait for a trainer, the training arena seems to attract a lot of well intentioned but misleading 'wannabe' trainers. Theres a reason they are not trainers and that trainers are trainers :lol if you catch my drift :banana: good luck
I've turned down the offer to be a trainer at least four times.
How many times have you been invited to be a trainer?
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Blooz's point being that while some non-trainer players may be misleading, others may be very helpfull and accurate despite not being official trainers.
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Blooz's point being that while some non-trainer players may be misleading, others may be very helpfull and accurate despite not being official trainers.
Mechanic is absolutely right. There are a limited number of trainer slots so there are plenty of guys that aren't trainers that easily could be. Some may have been previous trainers or invited to be trainers but declined as Blooz points out, others are just good guys that like to help others.
Unfortunently, as Pervert points out there are those that give out bad advice (usually through ignorance but sometimes maliciously) so you do have to be selective. If you're told something that doesn't seem to be right then post it or ask a trainer when you see one. Some of the guys to stay away from are those that promise that a certain magic maneuver works 100% of the time, that trim increases your turn rate, that certain "cheats" are available to a select few (usually only to trainers), or other such nonsense. These guys aren't that hard to spot as they usually can't tell a barrel roll from a french roll but think they're experts. Also, you may run into a guy with a habit of disrespecting other players and it's a good idea to stay away from anyone with a negative attitude.
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1st and foremost congratulations, from what you've described your not only doing very well for a new player but you've got a good understanding of how to build on the foundation your already building. I'll limit my comments to the following:
1) It's natural for a players initial success to be either in a pure "drive by" (B&Z) or "nose to tail" (Low level turn fight) situation since these both limit the variables involved. The 1st to gunnery and the second to more or less in plane (wings parallel) maneuvering. Your ability to land some kills and assists tends to indicate some ability to keep part of your focus on the outside environment (what we call situational awareness) and the other part on killing the guy in front of you or defending against the guy behind you (or often both at the same time). The next logical step (which you highlight involves...
2) E management in combination with 3 dimensional ACM (the "vertical action" you describe). In my opinion the two most basic concepts to grasp are:
a) The role of out of plane maneuvering (when your wings are not parallel to your targets) in a dogfight
b) The effect of E management on gunnery solutions
Once you begin to go "up and down" roll rate, elevator authority and variables in turn rate all come into play. The work in combination with your relative energy state to effect the quality of your guns solution on any given attack. You need to not only manage your relative position but your rate of closure to enable you to hit shots effectively. This is much harder then when your primary goal is just to pull a bit more lead in a flat turn.
My best advice is to focus your time with a few trainers or others like Blooz who are highly regarded. Find a few who can critique your flying and offer constructive advise in a manner that helps you. don't let to many cooks in the kitchen at once :airplane: :joystick: :aok :salute
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Thanks for the responses. They've been incredibly informative. :)
So in e-fighting it's about forcing your opponent to blow his E...basically get what I call Low, Slow and Stupid (LOSS :) while you still have speed or alt advantage and then convert your e-advantage into positional advantage and shoot him down. It sounds like something that would be more useful in one-on-one or low numbers situations, when you can focus on a single target.
BnZ sounds like it would be more effective in large numbers when you have an alt advantage....basically you blast through the furball and take snapshots and then zoom away.
I can see how you'd need to understand both angles and BnZ fighting to be an effective e-fighter, since both tactics are needed (BnZ early on, angles for the finish), plus you need to effectively manage your energy and know how to judge the e-state of your enemy.
So maybe I should try BnZ next, before moving on to e-fighting?
-Muzzy
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whats a kitchen sink?
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People will throw everything but the kitchen sink at you when they're desperate, but when they're really desperate the kitchen sink will be thrown in as well. I dunno...it could be a good name for the bathtub-like armored IL-2. :)
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I've turned down the offer to be a trainer at least four times.
How many times have you been invited to be a trainer?
Hope you won't be offended but I've never heard or seen you almighty 'could've been a trainer but didn't want it' dude, and not in the TA I'm there a lot different time zones perhaps? Maybe all the wannabes clear out when you arrive? Theres certainly some garbage on range and an eagerness of certain people lurking (who are not trainers) to 'train' people who are self admittedly new to the game in the absence of the official trainer. If you can't see that your blind or deaf or both :rolleyes:
Are you also suggesting I want to be a trainer by advising a person to look for a proper trainer? Or perhaps you think I haven't been around as long as you and therefore shouldn't offer some simple advice to seek an official trainer in the help forums?
What can I say? How bizarre....
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BNZ is the art of knowing when you can acquire a guns solution on your target during your pass, and when you can't. A master learns how to position for his firing pass so that he always (or near always) place his aircraft in a firing position at some point during his pass without giving up excessive energy in the process.
BNZ is the art of being able to predict with a fair degree of accuracy where your target is going to place his aircraft and at what point. A master has learned how to evaluate with great precision where his opponent wants to go, and to force his opponent to be where he wants him to be when he's not going there, when he wants him to be there.
BnZ is the art of bashing your opponent on the head with a sledgehammer.
The two most important things in BnZ are 1) Aggressiveness and 2) Patience. If you're not aggressive, each pass you make is wasted as you will allow the bogie to regain whatever energy and altitude he may have lost in making a break turn to avoid your pass. Patience is important because it may take a few passes before you've whittled the bogie's energy state to a point that he no longer has the energy to to avoid your next pass. If you become impatient and attack while the bogie still have enough energy to maneuver, the tables can quickly turn on the attacker.
Basically, a well executed BnZ attack is nothing more than bashing your opponent on the head repeatedly until he succumbs.
ack-ack
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All spits are good at turning.
I think what you need is some perspective...a of what exactly "turn fighting" is.
For this I would recommend flying a 109f4, F4u-1, and the Ki84.
You fly these three planes for an hour or so each in some good fast action furballs and you will quickly find out what turn fighting really is.
You are going to need some verticle moves...pure flat turning at the hint of trouble will end up badly for you.
The only way to fig this out is to fly diff planes so you can gain perspective of how the whole scenario plays out.
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Please fight.
I'm not sure eight passes in a cannon plane hoping for a snapshot is a fight. In an E fight (I have the advantage), I want to be on your six in three passes or less. I'd rather lose that fight than be boring.
No, you don't have to fight the way I say so. In the meantime, I'm working on making you miss nine times.
HONK!
Gooss
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Well I've flown the F4U a few times and I like it's characteristics...provided you can stay fast. I'm finding at low speeds I'm stalling out and crashing a lot. I suppose that's why I'm gravitating towards the Brewster. It's a very forgiving plane at low speeds on the deck.
I'm trying to transition into Spitfires but I find i still have difficulties with stalls, spins, etc. I realize this is going to take a much lighter touch with the stick and throttle than I'm used to...it's been a while since I've flown (we're talking Air Warrior, here). The cannon are also a problem. I've yet to experience taking down a con with just the cannon shots and they don't seem to do fatal damage on just a couple of hits like I've been told they do. I'm more of a spray-and-pray type at the moment, although my accuracy improved when I turned my tracers off.
Morfiend was kind enough to help me practice some merge and defensive tactics on Monday and that was very helpful.
-Muzzy
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Thx Muzzy for the kind words.
I still think you need to practice using a light touch,as I mentioned your over controling the plane and it's causing you difficulties.
Next time you see me remind me to show you an exersize that you can practice to help you gain a lighter touch and maybe you wont stall as often.
:salute
PS: film you next engagement and review it,count the actual cannon hits,I think you'll see it doesnt take too many,in the heat of battle you often dont notice just how many rounds missed.
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I'm trying to transition into Spitfires but I find i still have difficulties with stalls, spins, etc. I realize this is going to take a much lighter touch with the stick and throttle than I'm used to...it's been a while since I've flown (we're talking Air Warrior, here). The cannon are also a problem. I've yet to experience taking down a con with just the cannon shots and they don't seem to do fatal damage on just a couple of hits like I've been told they do. I'm more of a spray-and-pray type at the moment, although my accuracy improved when I turned my tracers off.
It depends on where you hit, a single well placed burst of 50. cal to the cockpit is enough to kill an enemy con with cannons that even goes in 1 shot.
In the Spits especially it is important to conserve your ammo as the cannons run dry very fast with an itchy trigger finger. Try to concentrate your fire on a single place on the plane (wingroots, canopy, wings, elevators/rudder/tailsection).
I personally mostly use just the cannons in the Spits and I start firing from d400 (my convergence for both guntypes is 375). I only fire all guns when I have a brief snapshot on the enemy in which I have less then a second to do as much damage as possible on his plane.
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Yeah, I think I definitely need to try and develop a lighter touch. The Brewster and the FM2 are very forgiving aircraft, so I can get away with a lot more. The spit seems to take more finesse, especially at low speeds.
I hate crashing.
-Muzzy