Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: HatTrick on August 01, 2010, 07:04:54 PM
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I'm curious, how do most people use this? All the time, not at all, off and on? Does it depend on the plane you're flying?
I've been using it the last few days pretty much all the time and while it saves me the trouble of having to constantly monkey with my trim knobs, I don't feel like I have the same control of the aircraft and can't maneuver to the same degree. Maybe it's all in my head though, not sure as I'm too new to the game. I'd be interested in hearing the opinions of the vets that have been around awhile though.
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All of the above.
At times, not at all, if I can tell by the "feel" that things are wonky, I'll often cycle CT on and off quick like.
Thus reseting trim closer to optimal for the speed and alt that I am currently at.
Best of all worlds in many respects is to manual trim all the time.
However that adds significantly to pilot workload. And it helps to have really good hardware with lots of bells and whistles that you can map to trim.
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I use it on climb out and my flight to wherever I'm going. Once I'm in at the fight/target I usually turn it off and trim manually as needed then flip it on then off to recalibrate to my new speed. When I'm just travelling again I'll turn it back on. Also, in uncontested flight I often use rudder and aileron trim to make course corrections. If I do this CT turns off so I'll turn it back on after I've made my course correction.
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Am I right in my impression that the combat trim limits your turning ability or am I just dreaming?
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Am I right in my impression that the combat trim limits your turning ability or am I just dreaming?
You're dreaming. Trim does nothing to improve or limit turning ability. Your elevators can only deflect to maximum deflection and the trim tabs deflect in the opposite direction to release pressure on the stick aiding in moving the control surface in the desired direction.
CT will however try to force the nose to lift in a high speed dive in some planes or allow others to speed to control stiffness or compression. In either case you want to trim manually to retain control of the nose, then re-engage CT once you're done to get everything in trim again.
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Am I right in my impression that the combat trim limits your turning ability or am I just dreaming?
Yes and no.
What CT will do is adjust your trim for level flight at your current speed according to a calibration table. In practice this means that if you hold the stick constant and the plane slows down (constant turning for example) CT will continuously trim up increasing your turn - equivalent to manual trim and pulling more and more on the stick. On the other side of the speed scale, if you go very fast (say, in a dive) it will continuously trim you down making pullout less effective. On some planes like the P-38 and 109s, diving with CT on can be dangerous.
I prefer to use it as a "fast trim" mechanism. Turn on and off when trim bothers me, but I can't be bothered to trim manually. Never leave CT on when you do dive bombing - trim nose down before you start your dive, but not all the way, so you can still pull out of it.
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What CT will do is adjust your trim for level flight at your current speed according to a calibration table. In practice this means that if you hold the stick constant and the plane slows down (constant turning for example) CT will continuously trim up increasing your turn - equivalent to manual trim and pulling more and more on the stick.
I'm not sure if I read this part of the statement correctly, but adding positive/up trim in a turn will not improve turn performance.
To speak to the OP question, I fly the 38's for the most part and in that particular ride I find CT to be more of a problem than a benefit if left on. Occasionally I will toggle it on and off if somehow my trim get's out of whack, but if it's early in my sortie (ie I haven't had a chance to get one of my engines shots out yet) the only trim that I have to worry about it elevator and that's easy enough to adjust manually on the fly in most cases. I find that CT makes it harder for my to control the nose at low speeds, particularly when I'm nose high. That being said I know of a couple 38 jockey's that I believe do use CT and are quite effective.
In other planes I tend to toggle CT as well but I do it more frequently or I'll leave it on until I start to get very slow or very fast cause, again I find it a little easier to control the nose w/out it on but that is my personal preference and someone else may not have the same issues I do.
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I'm not sure if I read this part of the statement correctly, but adding positive/up trim in a turn will not improve turn performance.
Indeed you seem to miss-read it, perhaps because I didn't emphasize that it does affect the maximum turn you can get. The effect I was talking about is that without noticing, as the plane slows down, CT mimics the effect of pulling more and more on the stick even though I hold it steady. I find it tends to make me loose the feel for what I do and waste more E because of that. Nothing critical though.
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I fly the P38 exclusively. I always fly with Auto trim on. I have never found it to be a problem . I do prolonged dives from 18K or better. I do High Speed and Low speed work and I never think about trim. It always on . I don’t find a problem with controlling airspeed in dives. It does a much better job of keeping the aircraft in trim then I would ever do in this game.
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I find that the 38 will get "stuck" in the air at the top of a prolonged rope. If I think I might have to push it and get to 50 or below I will toggle it off so I get full control and can flip my 38 over with ease. For the most part I find I have better control with it off when I'm slow.
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In flap dependent planes like the P-38 and Ki-84, Combat Trim is more of a hindrance than a benefit. There is a reason why it is recommended that those that fly flap dependent planes do so without Combat Trim enabled.
ack-ack
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What CT will do is adjust your trim for level flight at your current speed according to a calibration table. In practice this means that if you hold the stick constant and the plane slows down (constant turning for example) CT will continuously trim up
In flap dependent planes like the P-38 and Ki-84, Combat Trim is more of a hindrance than a benefit. There is a reason why it is recommended that those that fly flap dependent planes do so without Combat Trim enabled.
ack-ack
Ghosth, Bozon & ack-ack have covered it pretty much, but I want to add.....
I would also add some of the following planes: F4U, P51, P40, C202, F6f, Fm2/F4F, P47, 109 series in to those planes considered as flap dependent......
as already stated, the Combat Trim feature of the game is utilizing "pre-set Level Flight Speeds", within a "pre-determined Speed/Trim Calibration Table".... this table does not take in to account any individual plane, or individual plane's Flap settings. It only recognizes at what speed that particular plane is flying at
( NOTE: IT ONLY RECOGNIZES AT WHAT SPEED THAT PARTICULAR PLANE IS FLYING AT AND THINKS THE PLANE IS IN LEVEL FLIGHT )
and automatically trims that plane to that particular speed table....... but it goes even further than that........ the Combat Trim feature does not "TRIM" at very slow speeds or very fast speeds....... I personally believe from my own experience that Combat Trim ( CT ) will not have any helpful impact at speeds under 130 IAS and speeds over 430 IAS for most of the plane set.......
Lephturn's article found here: http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/trim/trim.htm
suggest that Combat Trim ( CT ) has no beneficial effects on speeds below 150 IAS or speeds above 400 IAS........ these are safe numbers to remember / follow, although from my experience playing the game, a close in dogfight ( KNIFE FIGHT ) one will find themselves well below 150 IAS, and thus, the reason I say it is closer to 130 IAS...
the only drawback to this is, for example,.......I myself will sometimes engage "Combat Trim" (CT) when in a Knife Fight with a "same type" aircraft ( example, a Duel or in a KOTH tournament ) when I see that I am drawing near a stalemate and neither of us are gaining or losing angles to each other.... at times / fights like these, one starts to look for any possible advantage they might be able to obtain or to at least stay on equal footing......
hope this helps
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I'm curious, how do most people use this? All the time, not at all, off and on? Does it depend on the plane you're flying?
I've been using it the last few days pretty much all the time and while it saves me the trouble of having to constantly monkey with my trim knobs, I don't feel like I have the same control of the aircraft and can't maneuver to the same degree. Maybe it's all in my head though, not sure as I'm too new to the game. I'd be interested in hearing the opinions of the vets that have been around awhile though.
I fly the F4U's exclusively for the most part. I use CT for all "general" flying, and "low key" fights. If the fight starts getting to the extremes of speed (<150, >450), or into flaps maneuvers, or into vertical roping-type flight, I shut off the CT and go to manual trim.
I also shut it off and go to manual for landing (so I don't need to fight the CT) and/or if I'm damaged and need to trim for that.
I use the X52, and have my trim mapped to the rotary dials, so I have my manual trim pre-set. I switch off the CT, and the trim goes to where I have it ptre-set. I also have small marks on the dials, so I can make sure the rotary dials are where I want them. It's not that hard to tweak them a bit here and there too.
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I fly the F4U's exclusively for the most part. I use CT for all "general" flying, and "low key" fights. If the fight starts getting to the extremes of speed (<150, >450), or into flaps maneuvers, or into vertical roping-type flight, I shut off the CT and go to manual trim.
I also shut it off and go to manual for landing (so I don't need to fight the CT) and/or if I'm damaged and need to trim for that.
I use the X52, and have my trim mapped to the rotary dials, so I have my manual trim pre-set. I switch off the CT, and the trim goes to where I have it ptre-set. I also have small marks on the dials, so I can make sure the rotary dials are where I want them. It's not that hard to tweak them a bit here and there too.
That pretty much describes how I fly and the plane I fly to a tee. Last couple of days though I've been trying to fly on manual the whole way just to try it.
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In my experience elevator trim does help you to turn faster. Take a plane up and turn it till it slows enough ur not getting the blackout visual. Then dial in elevator trim, you will see a return to blackout graphics for a bit.
Its my understanding that on p38's the trim was rudimentary, on planes like some 109's, some trim functions were missing (elevators), on other planes they had full set of trim.
I could be wrong but I think the trim surfaces were smaller, which is why your able to deploy them when the main control surfaces are compressed.
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In my experience elevator trim does help you to turn faster. Take a plane up and turn it till it slows enough ur not getting the blackout visual. Then dial in elevator trim, you will see a return to blackout graphics for a bit.
It's all in your mind, cranking up the positive elevator trim will not make you turn tighter or give you any sort of advantage. It's an Aces High urban legend that has been debunked many, many times over the years.
Its my understanding that on p38's the trim was rudimentary, on planes like some 109's, some trim functions were missing (elevators), on other planes they had full set of trim.
According to the P-38 flight manual I have for the P-38-25-L0, it had a full set of trim controls and was pretty modern for the time period.
ack-ack
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It's all in your mind, cranking up the positive elevator trim will not make you turn tighter or give you any sort of advantage.
ack-ack
Flying ki84 with with trim up I can black out when turning. This is not possible with auto trim. Don't tell me me " elevator trim will not make you turn tighter or give you any sort of advantage" :rofl
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I fly the F4U's exclusively for the most part. I use CT for all "general" flying, and "low key" fights. If the fight starts getting to the extremes of speed (<150, >450), or into flaps maneuvers, or into vertical roping-type flight, I shut off the CT and go to manual trim.
I also shut it off and go to manual for landing (so I don't need to fight the CT) and/or if I'm damaged and need to trim for that.
I use the X52, and have my trim mapped to the rotary dials, so I have my manual trim pre-set. I switch off the CT, and the trim goes to where I have it ptre-set. I also have small marks on the dials, so I can make sure the rotary dials are where I want them. It's not that hard to tweak them a bit here and there too.
A few questions on this please if you have the time. Is this for all three axes or are we just talking about elevator trim? Or mostly elevator trim? And with the flaps out and slow in the F4U when you shut CT off are you then trimming a bit nose heavy?
I've been experimenting with this again and I'm not at all sure I know what I'm doing.
Thanks.
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Flying ki84 with with trim up I can black out when turning. This is not possible with auto trim. Don't tell me me " elevator trim will not make you turn tighter or give you any sort of advantage" :rofl
Would this be because you're already lifting the nose, so when you turn and pull back on the stick, you're closer to the max range of the elevator?
In other words, using arbitrary numbers, if the max elevator range is 10, and auto trim is at 5, you'd have 5 more steps to pull with the stick.
However, say you manually trim 'up' to 7, you'd only have 3 more steps to pull with the stick, hence the blackout.
Game mechanics folks -- does it work like that? :)
mir
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A few questions on this please if you have the time. Is this for all three axes or are we just talking about elevator trim? Or mostly elevator trim? And with the flaps out and slow in the F4U when you shut CT off are you then trimming a bit nose heavy?
I've been experimenting with this again and I'm not at all sure I know what I'm doing.
Thanks.
I guess, technically, it's all three axis, simply because none of them are on "auto" anymore... But in reality, I only adjust aileron and elevator on a normal basis. There are times I'll adjust rudder as well, but the only time that comes to mind is when I'm damaged following a fight, and am RTB. Damage may require me to adjust rudder.
My normal (non-damaged) trim adjustments are a bit of right aileron, and a bit of down elevator.
I basically trim for hands-off level flight at about 275mph, and do that in a situation where fuel burn will not effect that in a L/R sense (i.e. my wing tanks are burned to where I want them, drops tanks are gone if I've taken them, and I've manually selected my main tank for the remainder of my flight). My manual trims are mapped to rotating dials on my throttle, and I've used a "Sharpie" marker to mark where I like them to line up. That allows me to pre-set my trims at a convenient time, or to visually verify that they're correct even if I'm in Auto-trim mode at that given moment.
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It's all in your mind, cranking up the positive elevator trim will not make you turn tighter or give you any sort of advantage. It's an Aces High urban legend that has been debunked many, many times over the years.
According to the P-38 flight manual I have for the P-38-25-L0, it had a full set of trim controls and was pretty modern for the time period.
ack-ack
http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_003x.html (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_003x.html)
Trim tabs on the leading edge adds greater area of elevator which should make you turn faster. I might be wrong but my mind can't make my plane resume blackout when I add trim to the elevator.
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http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_003x.html (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_003x.html)
Trim tabs on the leading edge adds greater area of elevator which should make you turn faster. I might be wrong but my mind can't make my plane resume blackout when I add trim to the elevator.
First of all the trim tab is on the trailing edge, not the leading edge. Second, the trim tab deflects in the opposite direction of the control surface so if anything, it would reduce effectiveness of the control surface. In reality, it helps because without the trim tabs aid the pilot wouldn't be able to move the control at all and once it is deflected the trim tab is now neutral to the airflow. Go look at your own diagram again.
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Trim tabs are a located on the trailing edge of a control surface.
They were not extensions, but embedded into the control surface and did not add surface area.
Trim cannot make you turn faster.
Blackout correlates directly to G's only.
Here is a P-51 horizontal stabilizer, elevator and trim tab arrangement:
(http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/rolex/p51trim.jpg)
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Okay well I was in a rush. I think its obvious from the diagram I meant trailing edge rather then leading. Have a look at the diagram whats the trim tab doing? Generating? What happens if you adjust its angle to be more in line with the elevator surface?
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I will tell you this tail about Manual trim. I am one of those guys who does manual trim ALL the time. The only time I am not in manual trim is when I’m doing auto climb, or auto level. And I only use Auto level after I’ve trimmed the aircraft for level flight – this way I don’t have any jarring control inputs when I switch off auto-level, to say, engage a bandit. I’ve been flying in AH for 7 months now, and trimming the plane has become second nature. I’ve got the X52 and have the rotor dials and slider set up for all three trim axis. (I’ve since put a yolk into service and use the nice big red lever, from the yolks throttle quadrant, for elevator. I still use the two rotary knobs on the X52 throttle for elevator and rudder, the slider is now for Zoom)
Several of my squaddies have mentioned that they thought I was nuts for using manual trim all the time, they questioned what benefit I could get out of it. It’s not very useful tactically, as I’m usually too busy with other major control surfaces to try and hit elevator trim in a combat situation. But last night a squaddie and I took up 262’s. We lifted at the exact same time, performed the same maneuvers in welded wing. I was the trailing wing partner so I should use more fuel to keep in position. He used combat trim and I used manual trim. Over the course of 6 sorties a pattern emerged were at the end of the flight I always had two to five MORE minutes of flying time than he did. So, by not using manual trim, you may have to “fight” the CT a bit and throw more control surface into the slip stream to get the plane to do what you want. This induces drag that you have to overcome with thrust, burning more fuel.
In a combat situation, with two identical planes and two pilots of equal skill, the manual trim can give you an advantage as your plane will induce less drag and you can retain more E. Now, we are not talking a lot here. Maybe 2 to 5 miles an hour at best. And You have to be an EXPERT at the manual trim. Because while the CT may not be as efficient, it will not err. The Manual trim is one more thing a new pilot will have to manage, thus increasing workload. It’s also possible to enter in the wrong trim input and actually hurt your E.
The other thing about Manual trim. Do not think of Trim as a set of “Bonus Control surfaces”. This is a common mistake, and people will “Fly” with trim. Use Rudder trim to help hold the ball in the center. Use elevator trim just to remove bank pressure. But elevator trim is a unique case. Think of it as a speed governor. You set the elevator trim to hold a speed, and then use the engine to climb or descend. I’ve recently been flying the Piper Cub by A2A in MS FSX. This aspect of elevator trim is VERY pronounced in this simulator, and it has taught me a lot on how to use the trim in AH.
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Okay well I was in a rush. I think its obvious from the diagram I meant trailing edge rather then leading. Have a look at the diagram whats the trim tab doing? Generating? What happens if you adjust its angle to be more in line with the elevator surface?
First off, the intent of trim is to relieve the pilot's need to maintain a control input. That's all there is to it. Without trim an aircraft's flight controls would only be "trimmed" correctly under one set of circumstances of speed and load. Once the aircraft moves away from that trimmed speed the pilot will need to apply control forces and hold them to maintain the new condition.
Say your aircraft will fly level with hands off the controls at 190mph. 190mph is its trim speed. Now decelerate to 160mph and try to stay level. What happens? The main wing will generate less lift due to the decreased speed and the aircraft will descend. Since you're trying to stay level you have to pull the stick aft to increase aircraft AoA to generate enough lift to stay level, the problem is that now you have to hold it aft to stay level at 160mph.
Moving the stick aft means the elevator trailing edge moves up just as shown in your picture. The trim tab on the trailing edge of the elevator (as your picture depicts) can be set to generate a force on the trailing edge of the elevator, just as the elevator generates a force on the horizontal stab. Moving the trim tab down (again, as in your picture) increases the camber (curve) of that portion of the elevator and generates an upward force on the elevator. By correctly adjusting the trim the upward force of the trim tab will hold the elevator in the correct trailing edge up position so the pilot doesn't have to hold the stick back. The stick will still be further aft when trimmed but the pilot doesn't have to hold it, the trim tab does it for him. Once this is done, the new trim speed is 160mph.
You can see from this that trim doesn't effect the aircraft's turn performance since it doesn't affect the total amount of elevator movement, it just affects the force the pilot needs to apply. Now, there is a condition where trim can affect pitch and that's when the aircraft is fast enough that the airload on the elevator makes it impossible for the pilot to apply enough force to move the elevator through its full range of motion. Trim can help by adding additional force to help the pilot move the elevator but this is a very limited condition. This is what happens with the 109 in a high-speed dive but, again, this only applies in a very narrow range of very high-speed flight, not in typical turn fights.
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But last night a squaddie and I took up 262’s. We lifted at the exact same time, performed the same maneuvers in welded wing. I was the trailing wing partner so I should use more fuel to keep in position. He used combat trim and I used manual trim. Over the course of 6 sorties a pattern emerged were at the end of the flight I always had two to five MORE minutes of flying time than he did. So, by not using manual trim, you may have to “fight” the CT a bit and throw more control surface into the slip stream to get the plane to do what you want. This induces drag that you have to overcome with thrust, burning more fuel.
In a combat situation, with two identical planes and two pilots of equal skill, the manual trim can give you an advantage as your plane will induce less drag and you can retain more E. Now, we are not talking a lot here. Maybe 2 to 5 miles an hour at best. And You have to be an EXPERT at the manual trim. Because while the CT may not be as efficient, it will not err. The Manual trim is one more thing a new pilot will have to manage, thus increasing workload. It’s also possible to enter in the wrong trim input and actually hurt your E.
Interesting ideas InCrypt but not really valid. Trim tabs are very small surfaces and don't contribute substantially to overall drag and, quite frankly, I doubt HT actually bothers to model their drag at all. Also, not all trim systems use tabs, some use an adjustable bungy and servo system that simply holds the stick in the right position. Trim simply relieves the pilot of the need to hold control inputs and the control inputs remain whether they're held in position by a trim system or the pilot so manual or CT trim is irrelevant to overall drag. You're "throwing" no more control surfaces in the wind either way. This is even truer with AH which simply models a "trimmed" control surface position based on a lookup table of speed. I think what you're seeing is simply related to your throttle control versus your lead's.
I'm not saying that flying manual isn't a good idea, it can be, but for different reasons than drag.
Where you run into problems with CT are those conditions that are different than the assumptions made in the look-up table. For instance, say the 109 look-up table says that the airplane needs 4degrees of nose-up trim at 100mph. Fly level at 100mph and yep, it works but what if you're in a vertical zoom? You start at 300mph with 0 trim and as your airspeed bleeds down and you slow through 100mph CT is dutifully dialing in more and more nose-up trim giving you 4 degrees. What does the airplane want to do? It'll want to pitch over on its back because of the nose-up trim but since you want to keep going pure vertical you have to counteract the CT by pushing forward on the stick. This is a case where CT is working against you.
A similar thing happens when you're slow and want to accelerate. You're in a turn fight at 100mph with 4 deg of nose-up trim again. The trim doesn't really both you much right here since you're turning but then you want to unload and extend to regain E so you lower your nose to accelerate away but now CT wants to keep your nose up so you're fighting it again and have to push over harder to overcome that 4 deg of nose-up trim.
Also, CT doesn't take flaps into account. In a turn fight this doesn't matter much since you're turning although it can exacerbate the problems with vertical moves and extensions as you get even more nose-up trim than needed with the flaps. It is very noticable though in some other conditions like landing. Say you're on approach to the CV and start dropping your flaps. What happens? Your nose come up and you begin to balloon and have to counteract it by pushing forward stick to keep coming down, definitely NOT what you'd actually be doing.
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Flying ki84 with with trim up I can black out when turning. This is not possible with auto trim. Don't tell me me " elevator trim will not make you turn tighter or give you any sort of advantage" :rofl
I will tell you that using elevator trim to make yourself turn tighter is just a myth because it is. Any percieved increase in turning is all in your mind and nothing more. As I said, this myth has been busted many times over the years that I'm frankly surprised that people still think using elevator trim to turn tighter works.
ack-ack
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I will tell you that using elevator trim to make yourself turn tighter is just a myth because it is. Any percieved increase in turning is all in your mind and nothing more. As I said, this myth has been busted many times over the years that I'm frankly surprised that people still think using elevator trim to turn tighter works.
ack-ack
You're wrong. I'm weak and can't yank my joystick all the way back, so elevator trim up lets me turn tighter because I don't have to pull my joystick back so far. :neener: :bolt:
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You're wrong. I'm weak and can't yank my joystick all the way back, so elevator trim up lets me turn tighter because I don't have to pull my joystick back so far. :neener: :bolt:
hehe Actually, how you're describing it has you still turning the same, but you just have less throw in the stick to achieve it.
That's what I was asking about in my previous post, and if it's the way it works in the game...
mir
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hehe Actually, how you're describing it has you still turning the same, but you just have less throw in the stick to achieve it.
Ding ding ding. I think we have a winner! You don't turn tighter, you just don't have to pull the stick back so far to get full elevator deflection.
...at least I think that's how it works. :D
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Mir I suspect that if you scale your stick then moving the trim also moves the scaling to a different degree of control surface deflection but I don't know if that's how it actually works. It would explain why people believe that trimming makes it easier to turn better even when their max turn rate doesn't change.
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You're wrong. I'm weak and can't yank my joystick all the way back, so elevator trim up lets me turn tighter because I don't have to pull my joystick back so far. :neener: :bolt:
:rofl
ack-ack
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How do you explain full back on the stick in a turn with CT on not producing blackout and with positive rudder trim a return to blackout? Blackout = G force, Gforce = turn speed.
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How do you explain full back on the stick in a turn with CT on not producing blackout and with positive rudder trim a return to blackout? Blackout = G force, Gforce = turn speed.
I think it's because game can't symulate stick stiffnes and block your joystick. It only limits "in game" control inputs. Adding trim virtually ( because you have alredy full back ) expands elevator authority ( like others said) and lets you turn faster.
Example: I'm trying to to lead shoot turning spitfire. With full stick back i can't. Then I add a little trim, screen starts to black out and im in lead.
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I think it's because game can't symulate stick stiffnes and block your joystick. It only limits "in game" control inputs. Adding trim virtually ( because you have alredy full back ) expands elevator authority ( like others said) and lets you turn faster.
Example: I'm trying to to lead shoot turning spitfire. With full stick back i can't. Then I add a little trim, screen starts to black out and im in lead.
So the end result is, using trim in this situation, is gonna let me turn faster and get the kill rather then being killed.
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So the end result is, using trim in this situation, is gonna let me turn faster and get the kill rather then being killed.
The only time that would work is if you're going so fast that the elevators stiffen and won't delect all the way. 109's are particularily prone to this. In that case in real life, trimmimg up will help alieviate the pressure on the stick and allow the pilot to deflect the elevators to the maximum.
The trim tabs move in the opposite direction of the elevators and are small, thus realtively easier to move into the airstream. As the tabs move down, they help raise the elevator.
In the game there's nothing to stop you from moving your stick to it's max deflection, thus, instead, AH simulates the effect by limiting the elevator deflection until you manually trim up, then the elevators can finally move their full range.
At anything other than these high speed situations in certain planes elevator trim does nothing to improve turn rate because the elevators can only move so far.
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I find that the 38 will get "stuck" in the air at the top of a prolonged rope. If I think I might have to push it and get to 50 or below I will toggle it off so I get full control and can flip my 38 over with ease. For the most part I find I have better control with it off when I'm slow.
now is that alieron trim as well as elevator trim?
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AkAk can you explain more about your use of trim controls?
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I think you guys are right.
Been doing some testing and found that I rarely if ever use full elevator while turn fighting. What I do is pull back on the stick to the point pulling back would stall the wing and then I dial in elevator trim to fine tune it and turn a little faster. I tried turning with full stick back and using trim and there was no noticeable difference.
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I fly the P47 a lot and turn fight it at the first occasion. In this case, flaps are almost always in use and when my target tries to rope or extend in a straight line. The need for a steady shot while I'm retracting flaps with the plane wanting to nose up like crazy makes it imperative to have manual trim ON before the fight starts and then play with it accordingly. The plane noses up quite a lot naturally even without flaps when its under 14,000-15,000lbs.
I remember in the old Mossie that to turn fight it tighter at slow speeds, I had to elevator trim it all the way up to start hearing the stall buzzer... I don't have to do that anymore, thanks to its aerodynamic rework.
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I think it's because game can't symulate stick stiffnes and block your joystick. It only limits "in game" control inputs. Adding trim virtually ( because you have alredy full back ) expands elevator authority ( like others said) and lets you turn faster.
Example: I'm trying to to lead shoot turning spitfire. With full stick back i can't. Then I add a little trim, screen starts to black out and im in lead.
Prono trim does not increase deflection. Trim just changes the deflection of the centered stick. The max deflection remains the same.
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Prono trim does not increase deflection. Trim just changes the deflection of the centered stick. The max deflection remains the same.
No, he's right in this case. AH cannot keep you from pulling your stick back all the way. In a high speed dive as controls stiffen you can still pull the stick back all the way but, to simulate the control stiffness, the elevators won't deflect all the way, that is, until you apply manual trim, then the elevators will move to maximum deflection.
Yes, max deflection is all there is but it's a concession in the game to simulate control stiffness.
As a trainer I'd expect you to understand the game mechanics. If you don't believe me go dive a K4 from 10K and yank the stick back. Then, as your about to lawn dart trim it up.
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So the end result is, using trim in this situation, is gonna let me turn faster and get the kill rather then being killed.
Don't listen to prono, he really doesn't know what he's speaking about. Again, any thought that using elevator trim to make you turn tighter or faster is a myth that has been debunked already. It will not give you an advantage over someone else and in fact, it will most likely place you in a disadvantage state.
ack-ack
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AkAk can you explain more about your use of trim controls?
Sure, elevator trim is set to 2 clicks below neutral point and it stays there for the entire time of my flight. The only times I have to trim is if I get too fast in a dive and use elevator to trim out but that rarely happens. Rudder and aileron trim aren't touched unless battle damage requires it to fly.
ack-ack
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No, he's right in this case. AH cannot keep you from pulling your stick back all the way. In a high speed dive as controls stiffen you can still pull the stick back all the way but, to simulate the control stiffness, the elevators won't deflect all the way, that is, until you apply manual trim, then the elevators will move to maximum deflection.
Yes, max deflection is all there is but it's a concession in the game to simulate control stiffness.
As a trainer I'd expect you to understand the game mechanics. If you don't believe me go dive a K4 from 10K and yank the stick back. Then, as your about to lawn dart trim it up.
I know that trim helps with compression but I read prono as saying something else.
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There seems to be a lot of confusion, let's boil it down.
In a normal turn increasing trim will not improve turn performance. Period, dot, end of story.
In a high-speed dive with certain aircraft, such as the 109 and 38, flight loads or compression effects can require much more force to move the elevator full throw than the pilot has available. That's the only condition where trim can help but that condition shouldn't be grouped with "turns" per sei, it's a dive recovery and, technically, it's beyond the normal operating envelope of the aircraft concerned. Someone who's diving in on a bandit so fast that they're needing trim to "get the shot" should probably be more concerned about how they got in that situation and how they're going to get out of it rather than shooting someone.
Technically, is a dive recovery a turn? Sure, technically it is, but since it only occurs in that particular condition, is outside of the normal operating envelope, and has unique attributes (effect of airloads/trans-sonic air flow) it's not really the same as talking about how many degrees per second or the turn radius you can read off of an EM diagram, i.e., traditional "turn performance" numbers. The big point is that it isn't a factor in a turn fight so it's confusing and misleading for folks to claim trim improves "turn performance" unless they're speaking strickly of dive recovery in which case they should call it what it is, a dive recovery. This confusion is why so many people claim trim is some "secret" that will let them match a Zeke's turn in an F6F. It's not going to "let you turn faster and get the kill rather than being killed."