Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Mustaine on August 06, 2010, 11:46:51 PM
-
I've flown FSO for years, but gave up because of ridiculous engagements... some may remember my time as Axis CO when the bombers came in at D+50 at 40k... it led to a fundamental change with alt caps, and time limit caps...
tonight, 30K and above B17's VS A6M2's...
really? even being above 30K after 45+ minutes on defense we were assured contact <30 minutes.
So an A6MB can engage a 30K 400MPH B17 at all?
I'm sorry but I don't think I'll ever fly an FSO again. Why bother? the supposed "scenarios" are absolutely absurd. I did this for years and got frustrated in the past, I tried it again and it's like no one learned. I know those in charge now haven't been around as long, but there's something called "parity" that makes the game fun. In the MA there are checks and balances to make things sort of even...
I'm done.
-
their performance is a little suckage that high up. And having the "G" really bites when there should be "E" and some "F". But we do what we have to to make the event.
-
It seems to me that the issue of bombers flying at unrealistically high altitudes is often raised. IMHO, if the bombsight were more historically accurate, which is to say relatively INaccurate, attackers would need to fly at more moderate heights.
Just my two quatloos...
-
It seems to me that the issue of bombers flying at unrealistically high altitudes is often raised. IMHO, if the bombsight were more historically accurate, which is to say relatively INaccurate, attackers would need to fly at more moderate heights.
Just my two quatloos...
That is why alt cap has been in placed.
It is hard to try to get bombers and attackers on the bomber accurate as far as performance, kills, accuracy and so on, in the game compared to real life. We could go around with the whole issue and never get it perfect. Just be happy of what we got for the mean time.
-
B17 PERFORMANCE IN FRAME 2
- U.S. was restricted to a maximum of 10 B17s
- B17s were not allowed formations.
- 4 of the 10 B17s (escorted by P40Bs) were shot down by A6M2s (loss rate of 40% )
- Deployed B17s carried a total of 60000 lbs of ordinance.
- Surviving non killed B17s carried 36000 lbs of ordinance
- B17s were tasked with attacking A15 (large airbase) that takes 38,100 lbs to destroy
- B17s destroy 28.1% of A15
- B25s destroy 71.9% of A15
I know those in charge now haven't been around as long
I have been a FSO CM since 2002.
So an A6MB can engage a 30K 400MPH B17 at all?
Per the logs 4 B17s were down by A6M2s out of a force of 10 B17s (allies only had 10 B17s for the battle), lost rate of 40%. So either yes they can or your claim of altitude and speed is mistaken.
Without film I can not verify the claimed altitude of 30K ft or speed of 400 mph of B17s at the time of engagement. I will ask for Rolling Thunder (flew B17s and P40Bs), 353rd and III/JG11 to supply films (Axis squads that shot down the B17s).
I do however have their battle plan. I will go test to see if they could have launched from A94 alt of 123 ft (at 21:57), gotten up to 30K alt, hit 400mph while carrying 6000 lbs of ordinance (probably 25% fuel), and struck A15 (70+ miles away) in 31 minutes (first engaged at 22:28 and first bombs hit at 22:34).
but there's something called "parity" that makes the game fun
In regards to parity. When a CM designs an event he looks to create parity for the entire event as a whole not trying to make it so every engagement point has parity. This is impossible without taking away the CiC's free will and ability to actually make strategic and tactical decisions.
In this case neither side an alt limit. Both sides had to deploy the same minimum of pilots to bombers (36 Ju88s and 36 B25Cs required). The B17s were restricted to 10 without formations.
The U.S. was given the option to deploy only had a handful of B17s not only because it was historical but also to make up for the non-parity of capabilities between the B25C and JU88. The Ju88 carries twice bomb load and has much better defense capabilities than the B25C. However the B25C is faster with WEP up to about 13K, without WEP 9K. and has much better climb rate.
But their few numbers helped establish overall bomber parity between the U.S. and the Japanese otherwise it would have been just B25Cs versus Ju88s. Which in my opinion is advantage to the Japanese because of their better defensive guns and double bomb load capacity.
the supposed "scenarios" are absolutely absurd.
B17s were historically present in very limited numbers and were historically difficult for A6M2 and Ki43 to take down do to their defensive armament, their high alt capabilities, weakness of Japanese guns (limited number of ammo rounds or no cannon rounds versus the B17), and lack of their own armor. It has been written that the Japanese simply did not press their attacks on the B17s and B24s like the Germans did for these reasons. Of course the B17s and B24s really weren't very effective in this theater also. The did not live up to hopes as an effective anti shipping weapon, the very nature of the terrain limited their effectiveness in use tactically against troops on the ground, and they had a lack of industrial targets and strategic facilities at this time in the war. Plus, unlike Europe, they were very limited in number in the Pacific in 1942. So historically their losses were low because the early war Japanese planes had a very time taking them down but their effectiveness was also not great.
This scenario is based on the actual case of what happened on Mindanao where only a handful of B17s operated at time against superior Japanese forces. The Royce Mission had 3 B17s and 7 B25s operating out of Del Monte. Howeve, I size things up do to the number of players and the fact that the designed needed the U.S. to have an equal chance of winning. So B17s 10 max, and min of 36 B25s formation (Japanese had a min of 36 Ju88 formations).
-
I agree, put extreme wind at 25k+ and alt caps of 15k for bombers, even when they are at 15k B17's are good at defending themselves with the .50 cals against A6M's.
If they were at 15k, they would probably been easier to escort.
-
The B-17's were flying at an altitude of 20K roughly. None of our group was anywhere NEAR 30K. We also hit the target roughly 37mins after taking off.
I'd love to provide film verification of that, but forgot to save mine after going down in flames, screaming. :D
Is it tough to knock down a B-17 with a zeke? Oh absolutely, but with the swarm of A6M's all over us, it's certainly possible.
You can't shoot every plane down, so many get through and tear you up.
Ask Boingg what technique he was using, he shot down two of us.
Ghost I'll see if I can't round up a film for you from one of my guys. I'm sure someone filmed their sortie.
HOVER09
21:57:02 Departed from Field #94 in a B-17G
22:34:32 Destroyed a bomber hangar at base #15
22:34:36 Destroyed a fighter hangar at base #15
22:34:36 Destroyed a field gun at base #15
22:58:17 Helps weasle6 shoot down jk.
23:02:50 Arrived Safely at Field #94
-
ghostdancer, my group ran into the B-17s at 20k with no escorts around and it was my group that shot down three B-17. Not sure where the they met the B-17 30k.
-
ghostdancer, my group ran into the B-17s at 20k with no escorts around and it was my group that shot down three B-17. Not sure where the they met the B-17 30k.
Affirm... the 17's we were with were at 20 - 25K... nothing over 30.
-
Affirm... the 17's we were with were at 20 - 25K... nothing over 30.
I do not recall you guys going over 21k.
-
I do not recall you guys going over 21k.
We were the P40 escorts... at 25K... the bombers were staggered under us. So you are probably about right with that alt.
-
We were the P40 escorts... at 25K... the bombers were staggered under us. So you are probably about right with that alt.
Ah, never saw any escorts at all.
-
Ah, never saw any escorts at all.
We were tied up with AoM it appears :)
-
From my objectives, there's no restriction on altitude anyway. We definitely weren't doing 400MPH either. I only looked at my speed gauge once, briefly while calibrating and it was at 260MPH.
I didn't have a chance to look again, because there were a lot of zekes shooting at me, and I was forced to man my guns. :D
-
Sorry guys if I'm not as polite as i should be but my BS meter is pegged out. This claim of 17's at 30K is false. The B17's had a target alt of 20K and thats what they went to. I calibrated at 264 MPH which is well within the A6M2's performance envelope at 20K. Actually, we went in to A15 with few escorts because short icons had drawn some of ours off to friendlies at the moment of engagement. I flew straight through a cloud of zekes (that were overhead) just prior to dropping on my first run. There did seem to be a few that weren't interested in engaging the 17's. I did my best to make sure the ones that did died quickly. I forgot to film but I wouldn't even bother with posting it even if I had. The accusation is baseless.
:salute
Dan
-
In the next scenario there is a reason our bombers are capped at 15K.
-
Defense at A15 did engage B-17's at 20k, and had one effective frontal pass on them. After that if you wanted to sacrifice for the Emperor you flew up tail pipe charlie :angel:
-
*yawn* another I can't, so I won't even try.
I've looked through these forums from the day they were started and the number of people blaming their lack of everything but childish mentality on other people or HTC, is astounding. Makes a person wonder if the whiners have kids, what their kids are like. Must be great role models.
How do you get a 287mph max speed B-17 up to 400mph? :headscratch: I've had the things up to 32k in the MA's and never got that fast. Even with 25% fuel with a full bomb load the climb rate sucks.
-
How do you get a 287mph max speed B-17 up to 400mph? :headscratch:
He was referring to True Speed but still probably a little bit of embellishment in there.
-
He was referring to True Speed but still probably a little bit of embellishment in there.
LOL Grizz, you'd make a great politician and I mean that in a respectful way! <S> Like I said, calibrated speed was 264 knots ground speed which in this case was close to actual speed. Frankly, I saw nothing wrong our gamey about our approach. Besides, everyone knows A6M's don't want to tangle with B17's. Not in the real war back then and not in AH2, so I'd say it was fairly realistic.
-
LOL Grizz, you'd make a great politician and I mean that in a respectful way! <S> Like I said, calibrated speed was 264 knots ground speed which in this case was close to actual speed. Frankly, I saw nothing wrong our gamey about our approach. Besides, everyone knows A6M's don't want to tangle with B17's. Not in the real war back then and not in AH2, so I'd say it was fairly realistic.
A6M are not bomb interceptor in real life. There where other IJ planse that had the ability to tangle with them but AH lacks in that department.
-
A6M are not bomb interceptor in real life. There where other IJ planse that had the ability to tangle with them but AH lacks in that department.
Not in early 1942 they didn't. And 287 max speed is a True Airspeed number in a clean plane, with no bombs. The 260-270 TAS range is as fast as you can get loaded B-17s in game. As far as performance is concerned, having a B-17E or F wouldn't matter. That being said, B-17s in the PTO typically didn't operate at those altitudes--certainly not at this point in the war.
Intercepting bombers is the activity in this game that requires the most discipline of any other activity. If you don't do it methodically, and plan your engagements, you will not be successful.
-
just popped in for a minute, i have the film over 15 with the heavies,,, but not the time to post it right now, i will go threw it in the morning, the 17's were at 20k and a bit ahead of us as escorts in p-40's they were not fast or high, the zekes came in from above us for one pass and some of us followed them down, if anyone wants to see anything special about the fight post and i will put up screenshots for you!
-
Don't need any screen shots or film gents.
The initial post is off, (to put it mildly) on more than one account and GD already pointed out many of them. He feels they are absurd, we have not learned anything, and those in charge have not been around long. What more is there to say? :cool:
-
This may be a silly question but is there an all time record kept by anyone that lists the W-L records of Axis and Allies in FSO?
-
Dunno about FSO but in the real world it was about 2-0 if I recall :)
-
Not all in one place but if somebody wanted to do some work it could be pieced together. Basically the FSO forum has the results going back years. So I would go over to the AHevents site, look up the list of past logs and then do a search on the FSO forums by the events names and write down the results.
Definitely possible but also will be time consuming.
-
Dunno about FSO but in the real world it was about 2-0 if I recall :)
Should there be more wins and losses there
-
I wish Grizz, but like GD said most of it is in here.
I see the posts go back to the fall of 2001. Back then we called FSO, TOD or Tour of Duty. I think we may be missing some posts. Seems to me a few years ago the AH forums had a burp and Skuzzy said they may have lost some. If I recall TOD started back in the summer of 2001. I still prefer the TOD name. :)
-
I wish Grizz, but like GD said most of it is in here.
I see the posts go back to the fall of 2001. Back then we called FSO, TOD or Tour of Duty. I think we may be missing some posts. Seems to me a few years ago the AH forums had a burp and Skuzzy said they may have lost some. If I recall TOD started back in the summer of 2001. I still prefer the TOD name. :)
It would be nice to see if the Allies usually win just so us Luftwhiners have more stuff to whine about. :)
My only paranoid concern is that the FSO team has a better feel for the allied aircraft than the axis and assume the matchups are fair when they actually may not be at times (not this fso). Of course, any 'unfair' matchup can easily be balanced in the way things are scored. Career TOD/FSO tallies would show unbalance if Allies have an alarming lead, because believe me, some of the best pilots in the game fly Axis in fso. end mild whine. :angel:
-
well if you want realism you should just start multiplying the bomb results by fractions starting at 10k feet based on the highest bombers alt at target.
as dumb bombs are not accurate if dropped from more than 10k above their targets, even today.
bomber leader must submit an AAR and bombing altitude defenders must submit an AAR and film to challenge ...
so say a loss of 1/20th of damage/score for every 1k above 10k ...
i.e. for example at 10k or below you can get full damage from your hits at 20k you can get a max of 1/2 damage from your hits so you need 2x the bombs and therefore 2x bombers in harms way to achieve the same results. dropping dumb bombs above 30k would be pointless.
area bombing could be done as a TOT thing and of course as with history the results and effectiveness would be different so should the scoring ...
if you look into HE bombing that is pretty generous for the bombers still and it would force them to face the same tough decisions about risk/reward/resources that the real bomb groups faced ...
actually this whole deal should be a CM option anyway if the game took history seriously ...
of course as a cm you could just bump up the clouds and get creative with the alts and times ...
well let the flame wars begin i guess ...
+S+
t
-
There will be weather / clouds in frame 3. A weather report will be sent to both sides.
-
There will be weather / clouds in frame 3. A weather report will be sent to both sides.
ohhhh that sounds cool? rain....rain....rain....would love to see some rain on my canopy. :rock
-
(http://www.foodsubs.com/Photos/cheese-dutchleerdammer.jpg)
-
There will be weather / clouds in frame 3. A weather report will be sent to both sides.
Any idea on when we will receive that weather report? As a CIC we should have had that with the Objectives.
-
WEATHER REPORT:
Scattered altocumulus at 7-8k over pretty much the whole map, with a light layer of cirrostratus at 30k.
-
Thats the beauty of weather Nef..ya never know :P
-
It was in the Allied orders. :salute
Any idea on when we will receive that weather report? As a CIC we should have had that with the Objectives.
EDIT: I just realized those were your orders sir. DOH, I'm a Donkey.
-
It didn't go out with the objectives because still confirming what awa file would be used to create clouds.
Once that was confirmed the weather report went out.