Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: CAP1 on August 16, 2010, 12:01:42 AM
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ok, usrangers post over in general discussion prompted this post.
in the last 6 or 7 years, i've been seeing a serious increase in rotted through brake lines. it's been worse this past year than any. i think i've done more brake line repairs in the last year that in the entire time i've been working on cars(nearly 30 years). hell, just 2 weeks ago, i had a mercury sable station wagon, and a 80's cadi deville. the deville was horrible underneath. every line i touched, another seemed to break.
i'm talking about the steel brake lines underneath your car. if one ruptures, it will cause sudden brake loss, possibly catastrophic.
on general motors trucks and vans, it seems most common towards the rear end of the side hung fuel tank. on dodge full sized trucks and vans, it seems most common at the front end of the side hung fuel tanks. ford trucks and vans seem to happen anywhere behind the transmission.
all cars i've seen this problem on seem to be near the rear axle.
what i believe is causing this, is the "brine" or whatever that crap the put on the roads before a snow. this stuff i think is much more corrosive to components on a motor vehicle than just putting down rock salt.
anyway, seeing what happened to ranger, i figured i'd try to prompt those of you that live in regions that get snow, to get those lines checked.
<<S>>
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Took my car in for an oil change and tuneup a few weeks ago. Just about everything in my car needs replaced. The darn thing is worn out and I need a new vehicle.
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The county spreads lot of salt here. I figure after about a 9 to10 year old vehicle a person should start looking, after 12, 13 should look alot more. My general rule of thumb is, a car last about 15 years here.
I don't drive new cars,I find if I replace one brake line the chances are I replace more, then there is the fuel lines and the rusted stuck bleeders on the wheel cylinders.
What is real bad is the vehicles that have a single piston master cylinder, at least with a dual cylinder, a person has a chance to slow down.
Yah, they started some time ago spreading whatever the stuff is on the bridges here to. Some type of liquid.
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Thanks for the heads up, cap. I have to take my jeep in tomorrow to look at the starter. Think it is about to die out on me.
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Well, I've only seen snow about 5 times in my entire life, so I think I'm okay for a little bit longer then. :rock
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The county spreads lot of salt here. I figure after about a 9 to10 year old vehicle a person should start looking, after 12, 13 should look alot more. My general rule of thumb is, a car last about 15 years here.
I don't drive new cars,I find if I replace one brake line the chances are I replace more, then there is the fuel lines and the rusted stuck bleeders on the wheel cylinders.
What is real bad is the vehicles that have a single piston master cylinder, at least with a dual cylinder, a person has a chance to slow down.
Yah, they started some time ago spreading whatever the stuff is on the bridges here to. Some type of liquid.
the fuel lines aren't as bad. they do go sometimes, but the only fuel lines i've had to repair in the last few years were the plastic ones, and they were usually from the car bottoming out.
also, fuel lines generally have a max. pressure of about 60psi. brake lines handle in the ballpark of 3,000 psi, which brings me to something i forgot in the op.
if any do need repairing, DO NOT let the shop do it with compression fittings.....and you should ask. the cadi i had a few weeks ago had a previous repair done with compression fittings, and that was one of the failure points on this car. you either need to have them replace the entire length of the affected line, or if they do just a section, they need to flare the ends, and use the proper flare nuts and unions.
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Thanks for the heads up, cap. I have to take my jeep in tomorrow to look at the starter. Think it is about to die out on me.
no problem sir. there is generally no warning when a brake line rots away like that. it's pretty much you expect to stop, but your pedal just goes right to the floor.
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So... They spead brine before it snows? I get a kick out of the sillyness... An associate of mine told me about how Memphis does the same thing...
Anyways..
Around here we spread salt (with brine mixed into it) after it snows and brake lines last about 10 -12 years. I've replaced them all on my Astro (plus the rotors because the bleeders could not be removed). It's just a matter of time before a manufacturer is sued. They should make the brake lines from stainless steel. They finally wised up and started making exhaust systems from stainless, why not brake lines?
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So... They spead brine before it snows? I get a kick out of the sillyness... An associate of mine told me about how Memphis does the same thing...
Anyways..
Around here we spread salt (with brine mixed into it) after it snows and brake lines last about 10 -12 years. I've replaced them all on my Astro (plus the rotors because the bleeders could not be removed). It's just a matter of time before a manufacturer is sued. They should make the brake lines from stainless steel. They finally wised up and started making exhaust systems from stainless, why not brake lines?
yea, around here, i think they started doing it about 8 or so years ago. i don't see it helping things to be honest.
ya really can't beat the plow, and then salting the road. at least the salt washes off easily.
and yes, i do agree that they could improve the quality of the brake lines with todays technology. and they should, especially as there is no warning.
i've experienced total brake failure myself, but not due to brake lines......rather a blown out wheel cylinder. i was lucky, as the light i was approaching was red....i was able to go into the turn lane to dodge the stopped cars, but i was going through the intersection. the big guy upstairs was looking out for me, as it went green a second or so before i went through it, downshifting, pumping th pedal trying to get something, and hitting the emergency brake.
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It cracks me up what they do here in St. Louis. Yes we get snow every winter.. usually about five or six snowfalls of 2-4 inches, and two or three snowfalls of 6-10 inches. When we do get accumulations of snow, it's usually melted away within two or three days, as one day might be 20 degrees Fahrenheit, and the next might be 65.
Here's what they do.... 8 inches of snowfall is predicted...
Street departments yell out "OH NOES!!! APOCALYPSE IS COMING!!!" They scramble all of their trucks on the 60 degree day beforehand to spread salt, brine, and god only knows what other chemicals all over the road. The next day, we get 6 inches of snow, only 2 of which sticks because of the warm ground temperatures.. and those 2 inches that DO stick only stick to the grass.
The road is a mess, with slushy salt and grime and god only knows what else kicking around under everyone's cars, and down the sewers. Then that dries, and the next two weeks of 60+ degree temperatures is like driving on dirt roads.. it looks like *censored* everywhere and every car all around is nasty dirty. Gotta love that my tax money was wasted on all of these chemicals and the manpower to lay it down for no reason at all.
-OR- they do this:
8 inches of snowfall is predicted...
Street departments think "Yeah Right!" and do nothing.
We get 6 inches of snow, only 2 of which sticks because of the warm ground temperatures.
Street departments yell "OH NOES! We screwed up!" and scramble to lay out a bunch of salt, grime, and god only knows what else. This turns the snow that DID stick into slush.
That night it gets down to 10 degrees Fahrenheit. The Slush freezes to ice! Street departments yell "OH NOES!!!" accidents happen everywhere... they lay down even MORE chemicals.
The next day, we see a few more inches of snow... it turns to slush. That next night that slush turns into ice yet again!
Next thing you know, traffic is a nightmare as we have several layers of ice that break even the snow plows... accidents everywhere... and since there are several layers of ice packed into each other, it takes WEEKS for this to clear up, resulting in a situation much worse than if they never even touched the roads to begin with.
They never can get it right around here... We don't really get enough snow to cause issues with 90% of the cars out there, and when they do mess with it, it just creates an ugly mess, often worse than if they never touched it in the first place!
I hate St. Louis
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It cracks me up what they do here in St. Louis. Yes we get snow every winter.. usually about five or six snowfalls of 2-4 inches, and two or three snowfalls of 6-10 inches. When we do get accumulations of snow, it's usually melted away within two or three days, as one day might be 20 degrees Fahrenheit, and the next might be 65.
Here's what they do.... 8 inches of snowfall is predicted...
Street departments yell out "OH NOES!!! APOCALYPSE IS COMING!!!" They scramble all of their trucks on the 60 degree day beforehand to spread salt, brine, and god only knows what other chemicals all over the road. The next day, we get 6 inches of snow, only 2 of which sticks because of the warm ground temperatures.. and those 2 inches that DO stick only stick to the grass.
The road is a mess, with slushy salt and grime and god only knows what else kicking around under everyone's cars, and down the sewers. Then that dries, and the next two weeks of 60+ degree temperatures is like driving on dirt roads.. it looks like *censored* everywhere and every car all around is nasty dirty. Gotta love that my tax money was wasted on all of these chemicals and the manpower to lay it down for no reason at all.
-OR- they do this:
8 inches of snowfall is predicted...
Street departments think "Yeah Right!" and do nothing.
We get 6 inches of snow, only 2 of which sticks because of the warm ground temperatures.
Street departments yell "OH NOES! We screwed up!" and scramble to lay out a bunch of salt, grime, and god only knows what else. This turns the snow that DID stick into slush.
That night it gets down to 10 degrees Fahrenheit. The Slush freezes to ice! Street departments yell "OH NOES!!!" accidents happen everywhere... they lay down even MORE chemicals.
The next day, we see a few more inches of snow... it turns to slush. That next night that slush turns into ice yet again!
Next thing you know, traffic is a nightmare as we have several layers of ice that break even the snow plows... accidents everywhere... and since there are several layers of ice packed into each other, it takes WEEKS for this to clear up, resulting in a situation much worse than if they never even touched the roads to begin with.
They never can get it right around here... We don't really get enough snow to cause issues with 90% of the cars out there, and when they do mess with it, it just creates an ugly mess, often worse than if they never touched it in the first place!
I hate St. Louis
Meh...
St. Louis does a pretty decent job compared to some cities.
Heck, Oklahoma City where I lived for many years, only uses SAND for snow and ice.
Sand.
We had roads frozen solid in a 1-2" in ice and they are putting down sand.
(sigh)
Pittsburgh does a pretty decent job in the 2 winters I have been here.
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no problem sir. there is generally no warning when a brake line rots away like that. it's pretty much you expect to stop, but your pedal just goes right to the floor.
Can i just look at the line myself to determine if they are still good?
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Can i just look at the line myself to determine if they are still good?
yes. as long as you have a way to SAFELY lift and support the vehicle.
use a flashlight, and follow along the frame rail there will be wither 2 or 4 lines of 3/16" diameter. these are the brake lines. if they've got rust flaking off of them, then they are suspect.
i still have a couple of bad ones i replaced....i'll snap a couple of pics and post them, and i'll try to get a pic of good lines in a vehicle for ya to compare,
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oops never mind...
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yes. as long as you have a way to SAFELY lift and support the vehicle.
use a flashlight, and follow along the frame rail there will be wither 2 or 4 lines of 3/16" diameter. these are the brake lines. if they've got rust flaking off of them, then they are suspect.
i still have a couple of bad ones i replaced....i'll snap a couple of pics and post them, and i'll try to get a pic of good lines in a vehicle for ya to compare,
That would be great. I will do the same.
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if any do need repairing, DO NOT let the shop do it with compression fittings.....and you should ask. the cadi i had a few weeks ago had a previous repair done with compression fittings, and that was one of the failure points on this car. you either need to have them replace the entire length of the affected line, or if they do just a section, they need to flare the ends, and use the proper flare nuts and unions.
Cap I can't believe that anyone, especially a shop would use compression fittings on a brake system. :O That borders on criminal.
Just an fyi brine is made when you mix salt with water so any time icy roads are salted you end up with a brine solution.
I guess that's one benefit to living in Commiefornia. We don't get enough snow and ice for them to salt the roads.
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Cap I can't believe that anyone, especially a shop would use compression fittings on a brake system. :O That borders on criminal.
Just an fyi brine is made when you mix salt with water so any time icy roads are salted you end up with a brine solution.
I guess that's one benefit to living in Commiefornia. We don't get enough snow and ice for them to salt the roads.
Out here in Kansas, we just have dirt roads. No need for salt on icy roads.
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Cap I can't believe that anyone, especially a shop would use compression fittings on a brake system. :O That borders on criminal.
Just an fyi brine is made when you mix salt with water so any time icy roads are salted you end up with a brine solution.
I guess that's one benefit to living in Commiefornia. We don't get enough snow and ice for them to salt the roads.
i thought there was other stuff in brine too. i think it's still much much worse than putting down salt, as now it's already in a liquid form, prime and ready to cling to parts underneath your car.
at least when they put down rock salt, it doesn't dissolve into the water immediately, and even then, i think it's a bit weaker than that in the brine.
that crap does nothing but make a slushy mess...which someone else mentioned already.
as for the compression fittings.......i've seen it a few times, and considering 3,000 to 4,000psi in those lines, it doesn't border on criminal....it IS. i had a chevy venture van last year, that had a steel line replaced in florida. not only did they use compression fittings, they ran the line through the rear axle........it actually lasted till new jersey before it rubbed through, and they almost killed themselves.
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i thought there was other stuff in brine too. i think it's still much much worse than putting down salt, as now it's already in a liquid form, prime and ready to cling to parts underneath your car.
at least when they put down rock salt, it doesn't dissolve into the water immediately, and even then, i think it's a bit weaker than that in the brine.
that crap does nothing but make a slushy mess...which someone else mentioned already.
as for the compression fittings.......i've seen it a few times, and considering 3,000 to 4,000psi in those lines, it doesn't border on criminal....it IS. i had a chevy venture van last year, that had a steel line replaced in florida. not only did they use compression fittings, they ran the line through the rear axle........it actually lasted till new jersey before it rubbed through, and they almost killed themselves.
WOW, i wish i had you as a mechanic in my area. Can i find a worth mechanic that is honest and dose his job for the love of it, not money.
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WOW, i wish i had you as a mechanic in my area. Can i find a worth mechanic that is honest and dose his job for the love of it, not money.
try going here.
http://www.iatn.net/
i think you may have to create a free account, but i've found most all of the mechanics/techs on this site to be honest, and doing good work.
for those of us repairing cars, this site is an excellent exchange of information.............
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try going here.
http://www.iatn.net/
i think you may have to create a free account, but i've found most all of the mechanics/techs on this site to be honest, and doing good work.
for those of us repairing cars, this site is an excellent exchange of information.............
Thx, in the mean time i think i will go to you for info.
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Thx, in the mean time i think i will go to you for info.
later on tonight or in the morning, i'll get those pictures up. rather convienently, i have a 96 suburban on the lift.......and he'll be getting a phone call concerning his brake lines, as they're bad.
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I thought it was agains the law to use compression fittings on brake lines. Not that it would stop someone. I wouldn't use a comprssion fitting on a fuel line either.
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I thought it was agains the law to use compression fittings on brake lines. Not that it would stop someone. I wouldn't use a comprssion fitting on a fuel line either.
it is in some places. i know it is in nj.
believe it or not, in a fuel line, they're considered a proper repair. i've got a kit with the fittings specifically sized for the different fuel lines. mostly the plastic ones. it gives me a couple of different options....i normally use the barbed fittings.
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I would suppose the compression fittings would work for a fuel line, as you expressed the fuel lines don't have the pressure. I have used a fuel line fix kit before but been a few years and between many fixes, don't remember what kind of kit it was anymore.
I have used a compression fitting in a brake line couple times, but only as a quick temporary fix. Living in the country, have to do what a person needs to do. I keep extra brake lines and fittings on hand now hanging in the shed.
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They should make the brake lines from stainless steel. They finally wised up and started making exhaust systems from stainless, why not brake lines?
I've been prototyping and manufacturing brake, gas, AC and every other kind of tubular product on vehicles for the better part of the last 25 years. Let me tell ya as far as tubing goes, stainless SUCKS to work with. (and that "stainless" they use for exhausts barely falls into that classification.) But that's not why they don't use it for brakes, it's because it wouldn't pass the burst test. Unless you use seamless stainless which is cost prohibitive. In the past and present all OEM brake line are made from double wall brazed tubing with a burst test rating of about 5000 psi. If you need a line replaced make sure this is used and not fuel line tubing, which is single wall welded and only has a burst test rating of around 2500psi. In the past few years OEM's have been using double wall brazed tubing with NYGAL coating, it's a type of plastic coating. That stuff will outlast most vehicles life expectancies.
By the way, GM switched to stainless fuel lines on their HD trucks for 2011. Ford and Dodge went that route a while ago, GM was the last to "get a clue" as usuall. :D
it is in some places. i know it is in nj.
believe it or not, in a fuel line, they're considered a proper repair. I've got a kit with the fittings specifically sized for the different fuel lines. mostly the plastic ones. it gives me a couple of different options....i normally use the barbed fittings.
Surprisingly, compression fittings are used quite regularly in fuel systems. But you're rite CAP, the barbed ones are defiantly better.
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I would suppose the compression fittings would work for a fuel line, as you expressed the fuel lines don't have the pressure. I have used a fuel line fix kit before but been a few years and between many fixes, don't remember what kind of kit it was anymore.
I have used a compression fitting in a brake line couple times, but only as a quick temporary fix. Living in the country, have to do what a person needs to do. I keep extra brake lines and fittings on hand now hanging in the shed.
if you do this for a living, check with your local parts houses. i have a brake line repair kit. it has somethign like 30 feet of easily bendable brake line, and about a dozen different types of fittings and unions.
it was well worth the investment.
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ok. here's some pics.
this one is from a 2002 chevy venture van. these lines are perfect.
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/DSC01623.jpg)
the proportioning valves for the rear brakes...
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/DSC01625.jpg)
these following are from a 96(i think) chevy surburban.
both of the lines in this picture are brake lines. there's one for each back wheel on this vehicle. the bottom one is in good shape. the one on top, look to the right of the bracket.......that is actually not too bad. look to the left of the bracket now, and follow to where it bends. see where it's rusted enough to be flaking off? that's bad.
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/DSC01627.jpg)
this following picture is a little further back in the vehicle. again, note the rust flaking off. what you need to remember, is that that flaking rust used to be part of the brake line.
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/DSC01629.jpg)
this next picture is just at the drivers footwell, just behind the front tire.
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/DSC01628.jpg)
and this one here is a junction from the metal line to a rubber one to connect to the rear axle. this particular bend is a common failure point for these types of problems.
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/DSC01631.jpg)
i really hope this stuff helps someone avoid what's happened to ranger.
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Thx, that will help us out. As always, you love what you do, not for the money, but the passionate of it. :salute
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snow? road salt? :devil :bolt:
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snow? road salt? :devil :bolt:
Earthquakes, mudslides, 4-hour traffic jams? :devil
Cap, I had a 64 Plymouth Vailant. Single piston master cylinder. During the resto, the brakes were on the list, but I hadn't gotten to them yet as I was using it as my daily driver, also. I came around the corner, went to hit the brakes and they went right to the floor. There wasn't a proportioning valve, no second cylinder, just a very puckered &%$hole. Turns out that the line under the driver's door had burst. I had pushed the button for 1st gear (old mopar typewriter tranny) and was pulling the e-brake with both hands (old school pull/twist to unlock under the steering wheel style) Not an experience I wish to repeat.