Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Muzzy on August 19, 2010, 10:06:14 PM
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Can you?
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When I can, because that means I've allowed the enemy to get me in his gunsights, and that often won't end well for me. But if I'm low on E and my choices are dip down and give you a free kill or try my luck and shoot back, watch out.
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9 times out of 10.. it's wiping them off my six that I've never been good at :furious
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99 out of 100 ish here.
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so, where ya going to be tomorrow night around 7 cst? ;)
To me avoiding the HO has never been a problem *refrains from posting my 'tactics' due to my stinkage* I've just never found it all that hard.
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I try to avoid HOs as much as possible. There are times when you are low on E, turning and burning with an enemy, and someone flies straight into your face with guns ablaze. Situations like those mean that some HOs cant be avoided even when you try your damndest. In the MAs, expect everyone to HO you, even if the enemy doesnt. If you fly with that kind of mentality, you are basically training yourself to avoid the HO.
Why do I avoid HOs? The answer is quite simple. I want to challenge myself by using ACM and trying to either get on the enemy's six or to make a deflection shot. Basically I fly with the intention of getting excitement in a close, even fight. I could care less if I get the kill, or die for that matter. What matters the most to me is whether or not I used the correct ACM to win the fight.
To sum it up, people HO because they want a kill. People like me avoid HOs because they want the excitement of the fight- regardless of whether or not they score a victory in the engagement.
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Of course you can, if you want to. Eventually you may even see that going for the HO locks you into a mindset that lets the other guy gain the advantage.
Granted in some situations its a lot more attractive than others.
Such as 2 or more vs yourself
iL2 or B25 vs fighter
or perhaps even 190, Tiffy, vs A6m, hurri, spit.
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I have a writeup on this topic including some films.
Avoiding the High Angle Snapshot (https://home.comcast.net/~micelihouston/lessons/stage3lessons/lesson_26_HO%20Avoidance.htm)
Avoiding the HO is simple in itself but it has prerequisites.
1. A commitment to flying the airplane and not just trying to point the guns.
2. A little knowledge on how to apply fight geometry, pursuit curves and turn circles in order to deny the enemy his gun solution.
In the films it may appear I am doing little or nothing to avoid the HO but the bandit just can't get his guns around on me.
That is the precise point of the lesson. If you always position yourself where the enemy can't get guns on you, when he is in guns range you don't need to do anything to avoid him. The avoid comes before guns range, sometimes a long time before guns range.
But it all starts with attitude. If you are just pulling to point the guns and only try to avoid the bandit's guns as he closes to guns range then no fancy technique will help you until you commit to a different style of flying.
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I forgot my favorite drill for practicing the concepts outlined in the lesson.
It is a very easy drill.
Grab your favorite plane with 50% gas. Go on the runway. Fire the guns until they are empty. Find the nearest fight and furball until you have just enough gas to return to base.
Do this repeatedly until you instinctively fly to avoid the other guys guns.
Works great but few guys are willing to fly with empty guns for more than a sortie or two.
But it is the hands down best method for building serious anti-Ho skills.
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Yes. The 1st rule is to always expect the ho. Then you're better prepared to avoid it.
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Avoiding a true head on is very easy. Avoiding all types of front quarter shots is not. I agree with Lute its about a 99% solution but every once in awhile the other guy will hit a golden BB. The real key is understanding that you can gain a significant advantage if the other guy is flying for a shot and your flying for position unless his total intent is to make a guns pass and extend. If you can manipulate his flight path by acting as your own bait then you can maneuver him into a position where he is trading a superior position for a low % shot that will leave him at an unexpected disadvantage.
Taken to it's extreme it can actually create a true reversal within the "merge" created by his attack. This type of -E merge is what makes so many of the better sticks so frustrating to fly against. The "kung fu" here I am :neener:....where did he go :O wow I'm in the tower :furious :noid situations we all fall prey to comes from various types of guns defense to offense transitions within the actual shot window. I know batfink has posted more then a few (along with many others).
To me a fundamental component that is overlooked is state of mind, Is your intent to "avoid" the head on or to draw the guy in and kill him? The 1st simply makes you a moving target while the 2nd makes you a dangerous adversary.
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i'm about 50/50.
had a guy in a 109 try the other night. i'm guessing that he felt seriously disadvantaged, being only 3k higher, and only 150mph faster, so he felt justified.
the problem when ya sucessfully dodge a ho, is that you're taking your nose off of them, then if ya call them on it, they cry that it wasn't a ho, 'cause you didn't have guns on them.
i have problems turning my dodge to my advantage though. most say that's pretty easy......but i can't figure out how to do it.
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i'm about 50/50.
had a guy in a 109 try the other night. i'm guessing that he felt seriously disadvantaged, being only 3k higher, and only 150mph faster, so he felt justified.
the problem when ya sucessfully dodge a ho, is that you're taking your nose off of them, then if ya call them on it, they cry that it wasn't a ho, 'cause you didn't have guns on them.
i have problems turning my dodge to my advantage though. most say that's pretty easy......but i can't figure out how to do it.
You have to know what your plan is before you get into guns range of the other guy. If you are planning an angles fight, then any lead turn properly executed will help you avoid his high angle snapshot and result in you gaining angles.
The reason for this is simple. Any time you are trying to shoot you are not max performing the aircraft. If one guy is max performing and the other guy is not in roughly similar aircraft it should be fairly obvious who will be gaining angles.
If you aren't gaining angles by lead turning a guy trying to shoot you in the face then you aren't lead turning.
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The HO starts lonnnnngggggg before you get into guns range.
Most people fly and fight like below, this is setting yourself up for a face full of lead.
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii253/maddogjoe_photos/accept.jpg)
Below, we avoid the face full by going for an angle BEFORE the other guy does. By not turning your nose to hit right away you set him up for a shot later and AVOID the face full of lead.
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii253/maddogjoe_photos/avoid.jpg)
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The HO starts lonnnnngggggg before you get into guns range.
Most people fly and fight like below, this is setting yourself up for a face full of lead.
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii253/maddogjoe_photos/accept.jpg)
Below, we avoid the face full by going for an angle BEFORE the other guy does. By not turning your nose to hit right away you set him up for a shot later and AVOID the face full of lead.
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii253/maddogjoe_photos/avoid.jpg)
i generally tend to go under, and try to slip one way or another, as that seems to me to work the best at ruining their guns solution.
i've tried timing my vertical turn at different places in front, planning on them being past me as i zoom up just behind them, but it seems i'm always either in their guns, or waaaayyyyy behind them when i go for that turn.
if i'm off to one side when i come up in front, they seem to have no problems yawing the airplane with rudder to put guns on me.
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This can come from any angle. It's just easier to draw a plane from the top :neener:
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Yes , but it comes down to how good at minimizing the front quarter shot you are tho.
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Yes , but it comes down to how good at minimizing the front quarter shot you are tho.
If the other guy is getting a guns solution you are participating in the HO, not avoiding it. Most likely you are thinking you might get a shot and then deciding against it way too late.
This is the root of 99% of all the complaints about HO. Two guys try to HO. One gets a kill and the other complains. If you stop trying for a guns solution at every pass you will begin to avoid most front quarter snapshots. It is that simple.
Beat them by flying the airplane and use the guns to let them know they lost.
Fly with the guns empty and see how much your style changes.
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My problem is I misread the other plane. I am trying to get on his six, and realize too late he is not turning the way I thought he was, and I am on his twelve. I need to get a better video card.
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When you actually look at what the guys who are generally recognized as killing machines do you'll see that far from "avoiding" the HO they go out of their way to invite any and all types of attack. What they do is work at presenting them selfs in such away that they appear to be a much better target then they are. The issue isn't one of just "flying better" but actually proactively manipulating the other guy into flying worse. Once you reach a stage that your comfortable being your own bait then your getting ready for prime time....
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When you actually look at what the guys who are generally recognized as killing machines do you'll see that far from "avoiding" the HO they go out of their way to invite any and all types of attack. What they do is work at presenting them selfs in such away that they appear to be a much better target then they are. The issue isn't one of just "flying better" but actually proactively manipulating the other guy into flying worse. Once you reach a stage that your comfortable being your own bait then your getting ready for prime time....
In essence, you're able to make the other guy predictable by being your own bait. If I turn like so, he'll attack me either like this, or this... When he does, I'll do this...
It's pretty amazing just how manipulative you can be...
Even "drawing" someone into attempting an HO isn't too tough, since so many are so willing anyway. Of course, if you're ready for them to try it, and you present a tempting but practically impossible target to hit, you're also ready for the stage right after they attempt the shot. And again, it isn't hard to predict where they'll be, and what they'll be doing, since in essence they were "put" there.
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You can avoid a HO as long as you have the E to manveour, you can get in situations were your slow and attempting to avoid the HO will simply leave your opponent a gift of a shot.
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You can avoid a HO as long as you have the E to manveour, you can get in situations were your slow and attempting to avoid the HO will simply leave your opponent a gift of a shot.
do you realize how many pile-its out there are good at slipping with rudder, or pushing the nose down hard for that quick shot when you go to avoid the ho?
i fought against a guy last night.....5 passes, 5 ho attempts......thankfully i managed to dodge every one as he was in a p47-d11.......but that seemed to be all he had.
a little later, he came at me..i saw him from 6k out, my 7 hi,.....i flew straight n level, letting him think i didn't see him.....when i thought he had guns on me, i turned hard into blackout. he tried to shoot, made one turn, and kept going. same guy;.
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Ummm....I have a confession to make. :(
Last night in the MA I HO'ed a poor defenseless Brewster. :frown:
Twice. ;)
With a C-Hog. :D
I feel so dirty. :devil
-Muzzy
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The only time I ho is if i'm in a mossie or 110 qnd some one tries to ho me. If they're dumb enogh to ho 2 30mm and 2x 20mm, or 4 hispanos and 4 30cals, it's alright to shoot back. I was once a hoer, but with a bit of time you can break the habbit! :banana: :airplane:
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Well he *was* coming straight at me, and he *did* fire first...at least I think he did, and it was kind of a vulch situation. Plus, he got my engine oil before he went down, but I managed to land on the CV with a canopy full of Quaker State. :airplane:
I did manage to avoid HO's all night except once.
I just kinda feel a bit guilty about slicing a Brewster into tin foil with 4 x Hispano Cannons.
-Muzzy
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I'VE mistaken the heading of some aircraft, and ho'd accidentially......sat. night being a prime example. i was dropping from alt onto a 110, thought he was going for ack.....just as he came into guns range, i realized he was comin straight at me. i held fire, and lifted the nose slightly to avoid the collision. he held fire too, and the fight was on....was a fun one too.
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The only time I ho is if i'm in a mossie or 110 qnd some one tries to ho me. If they're dumb enogh to ho 2 30mm and 2x 20mm, or 4 hispanos and 4 30cals, it's alright to shoot back. I was once a hoer, but with a bit of time you can break the habbit! :banana: :airplane:
Is there a rehab program?
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Can you?
I find a hard break at D800 usually screws them up. Oh sure, you may take a few pings as he changes to a crossing shot, but unless he has 30mm's you usually get away with a scratch at most.
Also, try a slow roll with full opposite rudder applyed. Seems many have trouble with that.
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Can you?
Yes.
ack-ack
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I find a hard break at D800 usually screws them up. Oh sure, you may take a few pings as he changes to a crossing shot, but unless he has 30mm's you usually get away with a scratch at most.
Also, try a slow roll with full opposite rudder applyed. Seems many have trouble with that.
a few pings in a pee38 equals pilot wound, or #2 engine oil hit.
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Depends on how good of a shot the pile-it is. I'm a crappy shot, but alwasy get golden BB's. Hell, I've a spitfire with the hull gun on an M4 with a 2sec burst :rofl.
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a few pings in a pee38 equals pilot wound, or #2 engine oil hit.
It's better to start out a little further out than 800 yards, unless you want to risk having your tail removed. If I'm going to go for a lead turn reversal on the merge, I make sure that I have seperation so when the bandit is around d1.5, I'll start my lead turn into him so when we do cross, I end up saddled up on his six instead of crossing in front of his nose giving the bandit a quick snap shot at my tail.
Oh, and a slow barrel roll using full opposite rudder like someone suggested is not a smart thing to do on any type of merge. There are more efficient and better ways of avoiding a head on shot then leaving yourself vulnerable like was suggested.
ack-ack
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mind sharing? Always looking for better ways to avoid HO's.
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mind sharing? Always looking for better ways to avoid HO's.
I'll hazard a guess here, that Ack-Ack is referring not so much to how those moves (the hard break at 800, and the slow barrel roll with full opposite rudder) are effective in dodging the HO, but in how effective they are in setting you up for what happens next.
Both of those moves may allow you to dodge getting killed with a face shot, but neither sets you up at all well for the next stage. Actually, against an experienced pilot, both of those methods practically ensure you'll be lifting a brand new plane a few seconds later.
An analogy that comes to mind is a pedestrian who jumps off a sidewalk to avoid a bicycle, and directly into the path of a truck. Was the pedestrian successful at dodging the bicycle? Yes, absolutely. If the only goal is to survive the "moment", those options work. If the goal is to survive the entire encounter, there are options that offer much higher chances of success.
In a very general sense, you "sell" or "trade" energy for angles. Without any energy, you can't gain any angles. You need to avoid "wasting" energy without gaining angles.
The basic problem with both of the options you mentioned, is that they both burn a lot of energy with no gain in angles. They're very "expensive" options when it comes to energy. They're also both pretty "obvious" to the guy you're merging with. They're easy to see, and easy to use to measure your likely energy level a few seconds from now. And easy to counter. All he needs to do is zoom up, and attack you from above and behind. This is going to give him a shot that's safer and easier to make than the initial shot on the merge. You've given up too much energy, and allowed your opponent to gain angles on you.
Keep in mind, am experienced stick probably wouldn't have taken the HO shot anyway. That means you've set yourself up like this for no reason...
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I'll hazard a guess here, that Ack-Ack is referring not so much to how those moves (the hard break at 800, and the slow barrel roll with full opposite rudder) are effective in dodging the HO, but in how effective they are in setting you up for what happens next.
Yep.
ack-ack
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Any specifics? I have noticed what you described happens when I bump into expierenced pilots.
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akak.....i think what he's trying to do, is get an idea of what exactly makes a good avoidance maneuver, and what to do after the avoidance, in order to capitalize on it.
i've been getting better at dodging them, but i still can't turn it to my advantage yet, so i'd like to know too, if ya don't mind?
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akak.....i think what he's trying to do, is get an idea of what exactly makes a good avoidance maneuver, and what to do after the avoidance, in order to capitalize on it.
i've been getting better at dodging them, but i still can't turn it to my advantage yet, so i'd like to know too, if ya don't mind?
The best avoidance maneuver is to NOT POINT YOUR NOSE AT THE BAD GUYS NOSE! If you find yourself at 1500 out nose to nose you might as well close your eyes and pull the trigger because it's already a crap shot.
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even if its something like a 110 or a mossie? Seems like it would be rather hard to pull a win out of that.
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akak.....i think what he's trying to do, is get an idea of what exactly makes a good avoidance maneuver, and what to do after the avoidance, in order to capitalize on it.
i've been getting better at dodging them, but i still can't turn it to my advantage yet, so i'd like to know too, if ya don't mind?
The best avoidance maneuver is to NOT POINT YOUR NOSE AT THE BAD GUYS NOSE! If you find yourself at 1500 out nose to nose you might as well close your eyes and pull the trigger because it's already a crap shot.
Basically what Fugitive said. I always make sure that when I merge I have created seperation prior to the merge, in fact long before we get into merge distance. When I see a bandit's dot, I'm already positioning myself so when we do get in range of the merge I already have sufficient seperation that I can turn into him for a lead turn for either the kill out right or reversal. If the bandit decides to try and close the seperation to prepare for his HO merge, he has to maneuver and risk losing positioning on the merge, which makes my job even that much easier.
ack-ack
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How exactly do you create that seperation? Do you have a preferance between verticle and lateral seperation?
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How exactly do you create that seperation? Do you have a preferance between verticle and lateral seperation?
Preference? I like to have both, but fight harder to get vertical separation.
With lateral separation, the other guy can still kick the rudder for a shot. With vertical, he blinks into red-out if he forces the nose down (assuming I get below him, which is my goal). Vertical AND lateral together makes his HO shot a complete gamble and waste of energy and ammo (but I'm ok with it if he wants to try anyway, hehe!). Once in every couple-hundred HO attempts like this get close to me. It's an odd thing if I take any hits at all...
You don't need a lot of lateral separation, and you get it just like you get it while driving a car- aim a bit to the left or right of your opponent.
As for vertical separation, I get my nose down the instant I decide to merge with someone, and "race" to get under him. He'll generally follow suit, so you need to be aggressive and "take" the lower position. At the same time, I don't want to get too much speed, or give up all my altitude either.
In a case where my opponent seems to "know" that he also should be the low guy, I might change tactics and let him have the bottom (it generally makes his next move predictable; you never want to be predictable...). If I do that, I try to make it look like I either couldn't get the bottom spot, but will fight anyway, or else that I don't know enough to try hard enough to get the bottom position. I have a few options for the higher position too, and watch him very closely as we pass to decide which option I want to employ. If he doesn't make the predictable move, no harm... The predictable move is also the one that threatens me the most...
Check out the trainers site, and read up on merges. Also, do a search for merges and HO avoidance, there's gobs of info and films available. No sense in re-writing it all. Also, I hesitate to a take an "Avoid the HO" thread and turn it into a merge thread.
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How exactly do you create that seperation? Do you have a preferance between verticle and lateral seperation?
Preference? I like to have both, but fight harder to get vertical separation.
With lateral separation, the other guy can still kick the rudder for a shot. With vertical, he blinks into red-out if he forces the nose down (assuming I get below him, which is my goal). Vertical AND lateral together makes his HO shot a complete gamble and waste of energy and ammo (but I'm ok with it if he wants to try anyway, hehe!). Once in every couple-hundred HO attempts like this get close to me. It's an odd thing if I take any hits at all...
You don't need a lot of lateral separation, and you get it just like you get it while driving a car- aim a bit to the left or right of your opponent.
As for vertical separation, I get my nose down the instant I decide to merge with someone, and "race" to get under him. He'll generally follow suit, so you need to be aggressive and "take" the lower position. At the same time, I don't want to get too much speed, or give up all my altitude either.
In a case where my opponent seems to "know" that he also should be the low guy, I might change tactics and let him have the bottom (it generally makes his next move predictable; you never want to be predictable...). If I do that, I try to make it look like I either couldn't get the bottom spot, but will fight anyway, or else that I don't know enough to try hard enough to get the bottom position. I have a few options for the higher position too, and watch him very closely as we pass to decide which option I want to employ. If he doesn't make the predictable move, no harm... The predictable move is also the one that threatens me the most...
Check out the trainers site, and read up on merges. Also, do a search for merges and HO avoidance, there's gobs of info and films available. No sense in re-writing it all. Also, I hesitate to a take an "Avoid the HO" thread and turn it into a merge thread.
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i dont understand the problem with getting out of head ons? just freaking roll out of them in a corkscrew... pure and simple that most players will not be able to hit the sharp angle shot when it is including a vertical and horizontal maneuver. with doing this, i can pull hard and get on their six fast because most flyers also dont expect this roll out followed by a 180 turn. in fact this almost always gets me their 6 or a kill
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Without trying to recover all thats been said the 1st thing to realize is that the merge starts once you hit icon range. If you need to make a sudden move at D800 then you messed up long before that. The general rules that govern a "dog fight" apply on the merge. You are in some combination of "in plane", "out of plane", "lag", "lead" or "pure" pursuit. A good pilot is looking for some type of vertical and horizontal offset. He doesn't want to be flying right at the bogey but in the opponents general direction with the nose pointed a to one side and higher or lower.
This creates a measure of separation in the relative flight paths, in a merge with 2 good sticks then normally you'll see both pilots flying some type of pursuit curve to the merge point. Based on circumstance, plane type and preferred fight each pilot will react to the other pilots change in posture (the variables above) in order to either maximize his advantage or minimize his disadvantage (this is critical, good pilots often win fights that they start at a disadvantage in).
Here is a link to film clip that I use to try and help newer sticks get a better idea. I'm in an "inferior" plane in a -E position vs a 4 x 20mm bird. I can't afford a "joust" and I'd killed the other guy just before and he was squawking on 200.
So my perception is that either he was gonna come in looking to light me up or he'd try and stand off and go "face to face" until he scored with his 20mm's. I used my greatest asset (the perception of weakness my "inferior" ride offered) to lure him into a poor shot window.
This is a timing issue that's not really easy to learn in the TA now since the damage is off but back when I was a trainer the TA had normal damage. It is very possible to absorb some lead and take no damage (which may or may not be historically correct). The key element is in understanding and applying two concepts "out of plane manuevering" and "variable G loading". If you present a shot window under conditions that combine both flight paths being out of sync (crossing paths vs one following the other) with a changing G load that forces the bogey to shoot while changing the amount of G's he has to pull to maintain lead it becomes very difficult to score any effective hits. If you combine that with a flight path that encourages an overshoot you now put yourself in a position where if the bogey takes "your shot" he has minimized any chance for success while creating his own problem.
I'm far from the best at this but this clip gives you an idea of what a -E "Hotel California" merge looks like {they come in but they never leave}. The Nikki takes the bait "misses" the shot and ends up with a P-40B hemorrhoid that won't just go away...
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/P40vN1ki.ahf (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/P40vN1ki.ahf)