Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Mickey1992 on August 24, 2010, 09:01:43 AM
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Seems like an idiotic scenario. Who is controlling the airspace?
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ab3_1282653276 (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ab3_1282653276)
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If it is class G, nobody.
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That pilot's lucky to have survived his boneheaded low pass.
My first thought... "ace pilot."
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That pilot's lucky to have survived his boneheaded low pass.
My first thought... "ace pilot."
over the runway like that, a low pass isn't that bad. i'd kinda like to know what made the r/c dude think it was a smart idea to hover a $5k model on the runway though.
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over the runway like that, a low pass isn't that bad. i'd kinda like to know what made the r/c dude think it was a smart idea to hover a $5k model on the runway though.
I was thinking the same thing. Especially at (what appears to me from what I can tell to be) a non-towered airport.
Aren't runways for real airplanes?
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Full scale aircraft have the right of way?
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it still comes back to the fact that that model prolly had about 5k invested in it. he's ho vering it over an activ e runway. he could've been killed, and he could've caused the crash and death of that pilot.
also.......there should be a warning for language on that link......
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that is why you fly RC's at RC feilds
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it still comes back to the fact that that model prolly had about 5k invested in it. he's ho vering it over an activ e runway. he could've been killed, and he could've caused the crash and death of that pilot.
also.......there should be a warning for language on that link......
Theres no language in the video.
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Theres no language in the video.
uumm....i heard the "F" bomb quite a few times, along with sh--........as they were walking away from the runway.
i don't care........but don;t wanna see anyone get the ban stick
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i should also add, that the pilot of the bipe should've gone after that kid for the cost of repairs to his wing.
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Not defending him Cap but I saw a lot of RC planes and assumed they were having an event. But ya hovering over the runway at an active port sounds like and attempt at capturing a Darwin award. What's the actual rule as to right of way at small airports with no tower?
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Did any of you watch past the point of impact? It's obvious it was an event featuring both real and R/C aircraft. There is a guy in a white shirt there with a handset who seems to be running the show, either he dropped the ball totally or it was miscommunication.
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Not defending him Cap but I saw a lot of RC planes and assumed they were having an event. But ya hovering over the runway at an active port sounds like and attempt at capturing a Darwin award. What's the actual rule as to right of way at small airports with no tower?
full sized aircraft always have the right of way.
whenever we've ever had any sort of event at outr local airport, they've closed the runway for the day.
the field i fly my models at is just across the street from KVAY. according to ama rules, we're not supposed to have any of our models above 400ft.
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thanks :aok
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I dont think I have ever participated at an even where R/C and full scale used the same runway. Thats just crazy. I dont think the AMA is going to like it either. That said I think the kid that lost his R/C plane is a little too wrapped up in the loss and not considering the pilot of the full scale at all. The event director did not do a good job with this one.
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Did any of you watch past the point of impact? It's obvious it was an event featuring both real and R/C aircraft. There is a guy in a white shirt there with a handset who seems to be running the show, either he dropped the ball totally or it was miscommunication.
I heard someone say miscommunication several times between the F bombs.
How do you define active airport, the real aircraft came in with it's smoke on. It was meant to be a fly-by. Whether the aircraft was early or the runway wasn't cleared properly for the stunt, who knows. It wasn't just some plane deciding to land there.
Initially, I thought it was a planned stunt to have them collide.
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I heard someone say miscommunication several times between the F bombs.
How do you define active airport, the real aircraft came in with it's smoke on. It was meant to be a fly-by. Whether the aircraft was early or the runway wasn't cleared properly for the stunt, who knows. It wasn't just some plane deciding to land there.
Initially, I thought it was a planned stunt to have them collide.
active means what it sounds like. planes coming and going. notice the plane taxiing at the end there?
ama rules also dictate that you have a spotter when you fly. someone should've seen the bipe coming.
and challenge is correct.......there will be trouble from the ama for those that were involved flying that model.
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The question is why was he flying it over the runway?? :confused:
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Thats also true... no flyby is supposed to ever occur over an active runway. Whether it was an active runway or not it would have been a good idea for any flyby to be offset (thus the rules) but on this day every thing that could go wrong did go wrong. Fortunately the full scale pilot made it down safely but I still want to box that kids ears. :devil
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Thats also true... no flyby is supposed to ever occur over an active runway. Whether it was an active runway or not it would have been a good idea for any flyby to be offset (thus the rules) but on this day every thing that could go wrong did go wrong. Fortunately the full scale pilot made it down safely but I still want to box that kids ears. :devil
i see them all the time around here. they're self anounced.
flying w traffic, t6 performing low approach, flying w.
the r/c dude should not have been out there.
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i see them all the time around here. they're self anounced.
flying w traffic, t6 performing low approach, flying w.
the r/c dude should not have been out there.
Its different during an airshow or at least every one I have ever taken an R/C plane to. The full scale jobs usually fly at a different schedule (not at the same time) and are told to maintain at least one wingspans distance from the outside edge of the runway for maximum spectator safety. I went looking to see if the FAA made that a rule but so far nothing.
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over the runway like that, a low pass isn't that bad. i'd kinda like to know what made the r/c dude think it was a smart idea to hover a $5k model on the runway though.
That is a very common type of RC flying called 3D. Most people start with electric foamys, then work their way up to 1/4 scale at a medium alt, then finally right on the deck. Check youtube, what that guy is doing isn't even that impressive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzprGLlJtPc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzprGLlJtPc)
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That is a very common type of RC flying called 3D. Most people start with electric foamys, then work their way up to 1/4 scale at a medium alt, then finally right on the deck. Check youtube, what that guy is doing isn't even that impressive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzprGLlJtPc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzprGLlJtPc)
i've seen that type of flying. we have a couple of people in our club that do that........but again...on an active runway is just plain stupid.
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i've seen that type of flying. we have a couple of people in our club that do that........but again...on an active runway is just plain stupid.
My bad, I get what your saying now..Yeah pretty stupid. :aok
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My bad, I get what your saying now..Yeah pretty stupid. :aok
:aok
no prob sir/
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To me looks like the RC pilot was in the wrong for playing on an active airstrip
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Nonsense.
There was obviously a fly-in that airport, judging from the number of both full size and RC aircraft, along with spectators. There would have been a NOTAM published, and the organizers would very likely have posted notices at various local aircraft and in local magazines, advertising the event (and warning away non-participants). The bipe came in with his smoke on, indicating he was either part of the event, or a smarta** trying to buzz the event without proper coordination. There was one person wearing what appeared to be an "official" embroidered logo shirt holding a handheld VHF radio, and later on that same person was seen attempting to coordinate efforts to retrieve the RC wreckage and keep spectators off of the runway. That sounds like there was an official "air boss" who should have been attempting to deconflict traffic in and out of the airport, including coordinating the arrival of non-participants stupid enough to poke their noses into an event like that, or pilots who were too stupid/ignorant to check their destination NOTAMS.
In any case, although the full-scale aircraft may have had the "right of way" if an official FAA investigation was launched, the pilot might also have been found in violation of various regulations including the requirement to check destination airport conditions prior to taking off for the flight.
I have been in the position of the RC pilot myself, on 3 occasions. In one occasion, I was performing an RC demo at the USAF academy prior to a cadet parade (a good excuse for not having to actually MARCH in the parade). We had just shut down our operations when an Navy F-14 screamed overhead at around 200 ft, before his scheduled flyby timeslot and well below the authorized 1000' flyby altitude. If he had come past just 5 minutes earlier, he might have run into a half-dozen RC aircraft. The second and third times, we were using an abandoned auxiliary airfield on the USAF grounds for RC flying on a Saturday. The field was closed, however the motorgliders occasionally practiced engine-out approaches to that field (making go-arounds at approx 50 ft altitude). We had been told that there was no Saturday flying so the whole model engineering club was on the airstrip flying our models. We heard some buzzing around nearby, and saw one of the motorgliders setting up for an approach. We quickly landed and walked back away from the runway, and sure enough he made one or two passes before leaving. In all of these cases, we were operating RC aircraft with full authorization from local authorities, and full size aircraft still came close enough that there could have been a mishap if things had gone just a bit differently. In all of those cases, yes our RC aircraft would have violated the right of way of the real aircraft, but in all three cases there were coordination breakdowns as well that would have placed the cause of the mishap squarely in someone else's lap.
It is hard to tell exactly who was at fault in that video, but there was clearly an organized event underway and there was just as clearly someone using a handheld radio to coordinate the aerial events and provide deconfliction. It is equally clear that the full size aircraft came through anyhow, and managed to ram a model participating in the event. Not sure why anyone would assume that the RC fliers are at fault in such a situation, given the fact that it was obviously a fly-in with participation by both full size and RC aircraft.
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Eagl nailed it....
The RC plane looks to be a part of an event and under the control of a coordinator. The biplane was either early, misinformed or in an area he was not supposed to be. Someone dropped the ball for this accident to occur and my gut tells me it was not the RC pilot! With all the planes and people in the background it was probably a fly in with an airshow. If anything the RC pilot looks to be guilty of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Is a runway with an airshow occurring above it an active runway?
Strip
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Is a runway with an airshow occurring above it an active runway?
I think it depends on what the airport manager puts in the NOTAM. We've had to "close" non-towered airports in the past due to landing emergency aircraft on them and having to shut down on the runway, and when that happens we contact the radar control facility who controls airspace around the airport and they put out a NOTAM closing the field. When the runway is cleared off, they remove the NOTAM.
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An accident report has been filed to the FAA. There are many discussions on several different R/C forums going on. I would like to see the final report on this incident.
Right now its mostly speculation based on the video. No facts from the full size pilot yet as to whether he had proper permission to do his fly past.
Nonetheless its not good for the r/c community
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I think it depends on what the airport manager puts in the NOTAM. We've had to "close" non-towered airports in the past due to landing emergency aircraft on them and having to shut down on the runway, and when that happens we contact the radar control facility who controls airspace around the airport and they put out a NOTAM closing the field. When the runway is cleared off, they remove the NOTAM.
when they used to have airshows at kvay, the only aircraft permitted to land were those in the show. otherwise the airport was closed.
to the best of my knowledge, n14 does the same thing.
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Nonetheless its not good for the r/c community
Absolutely true. No matter who is at fault, people who don't know anything about aviation will view RC pilots as reckless. They won't see the obvious clues about the professionalism of the RC pilot involved in the incident, including the corporate sponsorship and the fact that the first thing he did was carefully pack away his transmitter before attempting to recover the wreckage. A reckless amature wouldn't have taken that much care of the important equipment, and the amount of flying gear that was sitting in front of his trailer is probably probably worth more than my car.
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Absolutely true. No matter who is at fault, people who don't know anything about aviation will view RC pilots as reckless. They won't see the obvious clues about the professionalism of the RC pilot involved in the incident, including the corporate sponsorship and the fact that the first thing he did was carefully pack away his transmitter before attempting to recover the wreckage. A reckless amature wouldn't have taken that much care of the important equipment, and the amount of flying gear that was sitting in front of his trailer is probably probably worth more than my car.
a reckless amature wouldn't be able to get that model off of the ground. they more than likely wouldn't be using 2.4ghz radios yet either. they wouldn't be able to hover that.
i've been flying r/c for years, and still can't hover...but then i dont go for that type of flying. i like smooth flowing maneuvers, one flowing into the next........
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If you look real close he bi-plane didn't collide he swooped in doing 300 and put a 30mm into the RC during takeoff.
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when they used to have airshows at kvay, the only aircraft permitted to land were those in the show. otherwise the airport was closed.
to the best of my knowledge, n14 does the same thing.
I have attended many many airshows where we had combinations of 3D displays and Helicopters and there has always been one common event between R/C flight programs and the full size show and that would be an arm length patrol of the entire runway by thirty people. Either this pilot came in unannounced like eagl said or someone screwed up giving him the clearance to make that pass.
Every time I fly a model I know it could be the last time it takes to the air and no matter how much it costs it doesnt compare to one mans life. So either the R/C pilot doesnt care or he knows very obviously that plane didnt belong there at that time and right now I have to go with knowing it didnt belong there.
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I dont think it was the fault of the RC pilot. But the hotshot in the full sized AC...OR of those running the airport.
It it obvious that this was a combined event where RC planes were being allowed to fly. And more specifically allowed to fly over that particular runway. The reason I say that is because of the close proximity of the official in the white shirt. Who later came over and apologized to the RC owner. Also Without going back and rewatching to point to the specific time on the video. the guy in the white shirt mentioned that the pilot of the real AC did not have clearance to make that low pass over that runway. Which sounds kind of to me like the pilot of the real AC had done a Maverick " Sorry Goose. but its time to buzz the tower" Top Gun stunt flyby.
Im no airport expert. But I dont know of any airports that would allow that kind of low flyby with so many people so close to the runway
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Ok at about 4:40 the official in the white shirt. Whom if you freeze at 4:50 you can clearly see the tag on his shirt that says "Air Boss" speaking to the RC guy about the pilot
"He didnt announce his go around. Then i saw him go around and I told him to go left and I saw him staying with the runway. That thats when I told you to fly away, and just as your flew away..."
Looks to me like the pilot did not follow the instructions of the air boss.
"Sorry Goose. But its time to buzz the tower"
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i should also add, that the pilot of the bipe should've gone after that kid for the cost of repairs to his wing.
That's a load of BS. The pilot should've known that RC aircraft were in the area. If he didn't know... He's an idiot.
If you knew that an RC show was going on and decided to show off in your plane and got hurt... No sympathy from me.
Stupid on the pilot's part. Clear your pass before you take it. Don't expect the air to be clear.
If it wasn't the pilot's fault, he wouldn't be getting sued for damages. (the RC driver will win BTW)
The guy was lucky that he didn't kill someone. Dumb F...
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over the runway like that, a low pass isn't that bad. i'd kinda like to know what made the r/c dude think it was a smart idea to hover a $5k model on the runway though.
Because he was there to do that. Seriously, are you gonna blame the RC driver for being in the way of an idiot that didn't check his clearance for a pass?
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AHAAAA! that pilots all like screw ya toy! :rofl
but the only bonehead here is the RC guy playin with his toy at an airfield. ill bet that toy could take off from a basketball court, he should be at a park.
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This was a very irresponsible pass (without clearance as well).
It's not a joking matter. Someone could've been killed. Luckily, that didn't happen.
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A bit more info from another forum.
A little more information:
"The event last Saturday took place at a private airfield. At a minimum they could have filed a NOTAM (Notice to Airman) alerting pilots of radio controlled operations at the airport during specific times, and if they were to allow those operations on or near the runway, the runway could have been closed," said FAA spokesman Allen Kenitzer. "In all cases with regard to radio controlled aircraft interfacing with manned vehicles, the manned vehicle retains the right of way."
"Even if the pilot of the RC aircraft was at fault, there's actually no law regarding the operation of remote-control aircraft near airports, or anywhere, despite the growing popularity of giant-scale aircraft as large as eight feet in size.
The Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA) does have a "Safety Code" stipulating modelers shouldn't fly above 400 feet within 3 miles of an airport and to notify airports when they're in close proximity, but Kenitzer says "It should be noted that the code is suggestive and not binding by federal law."
The FAA also issued an advisory circular, but it was from 1981 and the hobby has evolved significantly in the last 29 years. The AMA, FAA, and other groups put together a list of suggestions in 2009 for how to regulate these aircraft, but it has met with resistance from some hobbyists, and the report itself includes objections from the AMA."]A little more information:
"The event last Saturday took place at a private airfield. At a minimum they could have filed a NOTAM (Notice to Airman) alerting pilots of radio controlled operations at the airport during specific times, and if they were to allow those operations on or near the runway, the runway could have been closed," said FAA spokesman Allen Kenitzer. "In all cases with regard to radio controlled aircraft interfacing with manned vehicles, the manned vehicle retains the right of way."
"Even if the pilot of the RC aircraft was at fault, there's actually no law regarding the operation of remote-control aircraft near airports, or anywhere, despite the growing popularity of giant-scale aircraft as large as eight feet in size.
The Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA) does have a "Safety Code" stipulating modelers shouldn't fly above 400 feet within 3 miles of an airport and to notify airports when they're in close proximity, but Kenitzer says "It should be noted that the code is suggestive and not binding by federal law."
The FAA also issued an advisory circular, but it was from 1981 and the hobby has evolved significantly in the last 29 years. The AMA, FAA, and other groups put together a list of suggestions in 2009 for how to regulate these aircraft, but it has met with resistance from some hobbyists, and the report itself includes objections from the AMA."
Maybe it's the diphenhydramine but there's a couple lines in there that short circuit my brain. DOES NOT COMPUTE.
Here's the R/C guys version of the events.
Ok Slick bro's ya ready for this ****. Bad news. The Slick is dead !! She was hit by a full size Pitts Special, Iv got pics & video I will be uploading real soon, Cory, and me went to do a demo for a childrens charity event at a real airport, and I was hovering on the deck and down comes a full size Pitts , dude and his wife were flying in it, and he procedes to do a high speed on the deck pass without clearing with the flight boss and wham !! He made an emergency landing, leadingedge of his bottom wing has a 1'X1' foot dent, and is not flyable. handsomehunk could have killed himself and his wife pulling crap like that, No clearance with control whatso ever, and all I got was im sorry. Now im out $8000.00, but I got an apology which is worth nothing,
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See? The R/C guy is just self-centered. Something tells me he wouldnt feel any different if the full size pilot and his wife had died. Simply put $8k is nothing compared to one life let alone two. This guy is a moron.
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active means what it sounds like. planes coming and going. notice the plane taxiing at the end there?
ama rules also dictate that you have a spotter when you fly. someone should've seen the bipe coming.
and challenge is correct.......there will be trouble from the ama for those that were involved flying that model.
the RC was 8 grand as the pilot clearly says that after putting his controller away.
So far from the multiple sites ive read this one, the Pilot wasnt suppose to be flying over the runway. he also wasnt in contact with the ground as the ground crew called him multiple times to go around. The RC pilot was then told to get the RC out of the way because he was still coming in and thats why he starts to fly the plane away before impact.
It was a flyin/RC event. If you look at the airport, there is no place for them to fly from other than the runway (notice how the crowd was right there at the runway and the planes right next to it?
now you mention the plane taxiing at the end. The was the bi-plane that was hit. You hear towards the end a director of the event say he is down safe.
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the RC was 8 grand as the pilot clearly says that after putting his controller away.
So far from the multiple sites ive read this one, the Pilot wasnt suppose to be flying over the runway. he also wasnt in contact with the ground as the ground crew called him multiple times to go around. The RC pilot was then told to get the RC out of the way because he was still coming in and thats why he starts to fly the plane away before impact.
It was a flyin/RC event. If you look at the airport, there is no place for them to fly from other than the runway (notice how the crowd was right there at the runway and the planes right next to it?
now you mention the plane taxiing at the end. The was the bi-plane that was hit. You hear towards the end a director of the event say he is down safe.
i watched here at work, with the volume off....i'll watch again tonight if i can make the time with volume up