Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Stoney on September 02, 2010, 03:53:21 PM
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Gents,
I know I'm grumpy, but I really hate seeing the Allies use Jabos during 8th AF FSOs. I'll happily fly a bomber during an 8th AF setup. I'd rather fly a B-24 or B-17 in an 8th AF setup than a bomb-truck P-47 which will undoubtedly get to the target, lacking local air superiority, low, slow, and grossly overburdened with bombs, and I'm a P-47 fanboi. Its usually a quick trip to the tower. Especially when the target is a strat target instead of a point target.
B-17s and B-24s allow the Allies to have a great force multiplier, with 3 aircraft per pilot, at altitude, with a decent chance of making it all the way from takeoff, to target, to landing with at least one drone alive. Roaring into an objective area in a Jabo, at medium altitude, at 17,000+ lbs of aircraft and ordnance, with the enemy CAP circling like buzzards above you at 30,000 feet is no fun in my mind.
Strat bombers were designed to operate in hostile airspace, without or with very little localized air superiority. They make the escorts mission much easier. Jabos, even after ditching their ordnance, are too low, e-deficient, and nothing more than targets to chase, unless localized air superiority is achieved and maintained, until such a time as they are able to defend themselves.
I make my appeal to the community to embrace some "reality" for these 8th AF setups. I think they simply are some of the best FSO setups. But I really feel like I'm in the MA, when Jabos are used.
I know not everyone will agree with me, just throwing my $.02 downrange for whatever its worth.
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+1 :aok
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Do all heavy Bombers have to take off with 100% fuel?
Cheers,
gus
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I'd rather fly a B-24 or B-17 in an 8th AF setup than a bomb-truck P-47 which will undoubtedly get to the target, lacking local air superiority, low, slow, and grossly overburdened with bombs, and I'm a P-47 fanboi.
On more than one occasion my squad has floundered in 190s or 109s at 30k, maybe 32k at most, and watched as entire squadrons of BOMB LADEN P-47s flew above us completely unmolested, dropped on the target, and got away in a 600mph dive.
I totally agree with you, but for the totally opposite reasons.
In FSO folks have done this hundreds of times and know just how to game the game, just how to get a job done without any risk, unlike the boys in WW2 that did this for real. Historically bomb-laden P-47s may have flown into the target at 10k. Here in AH they never drop below 35k if they can help it.
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multi level attacks are a difficult problem 1v1 especially since the high ground belongs to the 8th (not historic)
with the bombers having a 3-1 number multiplier i really have trouble seeing anything but allied advantage in this one.
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Every time late war is run like this it's almost always an allied slaughter of the LW. Objectives may be set up so that overall points can be balanced by both sides, but the axis get pretty much wiped from the sky. My squad's been axis most times these setups come along, and it's always the same no matter what the orders, what the mission.... 35k+ P51s, P38s, P47s screaming in full throttle against planes that can barely make a banked turn without losing 2000ft alt.
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Can we keep this one on point? I started it to discuss the use of Jabos, not balance issues, or plane performance.
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well with the fuel burn set at 1.5 the p47 was 1 way ticket without taking 2 drop tanks and then cutting back to max cruise at 200 but then you had g14's find you down on the deck and kill you anyway, but it was rather stupid to have p47's doing jabbo that far away from the re-arm base even with the air start. \
Just my opinion
ab8aac/dmdchief/aac
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It didn't help that that the P-47s and their P-51 escort spawned from two different locations, 5 sectors away from each other. :uhoh
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See Rules #4, #6
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I prefer the heavies.
At what alt did the P47s spawn in at. We in 109ks were at 33k when the spawn alert was announced. We flew for a very short time and when we made contact the P47s were co-alt at like 35k. I thought someone said they would be 26k when spawned..just curious.
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See Rules #4, #6
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Well axis knew exactly where our air spawns were and climbed like bats outta hell to pick us off as we came out of these said air spawns... That negated any advantage the US planes could get because we never got UP to alt....
Heavy P-47s (we were 28k max, most lower) were dog meat because our escort moved on ahead of us and never stayed near by.
The point being not to dogfight but to get to the target... A number of us did get past the air-spawn-camper dweebs, but only after sacrificing 50%-60% of our numbers and nosing down to run away at max speed. Hell we even ran into 25k HEAVY 190A8s, with WGr21s and all... We got wiped out before any of us got to the target.
Worst airspawns ever..... Or perhaps just the map needs to remove them from the grids on the clipboard. Either way.
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Heavy P-47s (we were 28k max, most lower) were dog meat because our escort moved on ahead of us and never stayed near by.
Did you read the orders Krusty? Do you know who was assigned escort for your mission? Did you make contact with the assigned escort? Your assigned escort was never in front of you and you'd know that if you'd contacted them.
For the record, my squad had exactly the same mission as you and a complete plane of action. We knew who was to escort your squad & our squad to the target. We knew where they were because we read the orders. we knew that they were starting 4 sectors behind us & planned accordingly. We also made & stayed in contact with the assigned escort, not that it helped your squads or my squads plight.
All that being said and back on-topic: Yup, jabos for 8th AF missions is poo-poo!
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Stoney to your original statement and my observation:
I agree that "we" should be seeing larger bomber formations in general. My opinion when the point value of a single bomber (20) nearly match's the point value of a target Hanger (25) and the targets at the fields are limited to just the hangers a good CIC probably will limit the exposure of the bombers to his min numbers. It doesn't make sense to risk 400 points worth of bombers to get 100 points in hangers. Even if the bombers have a better chance of making it. Lose 5 bombers and your gain is all lost. To many things can go wrong from escorts not escorting or bomber groups going back and forth 3 or 4 times over the same target allowing every enemy plane within 75 miles to converge on them.
If I were CIC'ing during this scenario I would only use my min numbers in bombers because of the point value of the possible gain to the possible loss. The city targets are the exception and bombers almost have to be used to take them out.
Reduce the point values of the bombers or increase the point values of the targets or reduce the numbers of targets and you will probably see more bombers used. City type targets almost require the use of bombers, so use more city type targets. I'm not sure of what ratio to recommend is, but probably a 1.5 - 2.0 ratio of target points to bomber loss's based on 7 pilots (21) bombers crossing a target would be about right to encourage more bomber usage.
Another observation: The amount of total targets. You really cant assign bombers to each target or you would have more bombers in the air than escorts when the FSO rules on splitting squad plane types are figured into the ratio's. You really cant use a lot of bombers in a plan when there are 7 targets to hit. Also you have the requirements on planes types that must be used for a frame (7 of 9 for the ALLIES). All driving the CIC to use less bombers. Don't know if this was by design or not, but its the way its working out for this scenario.
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Stoney to your original statement and my observation:
I agree that "we" should be seeing larger bomber formations in general. My opinion when the point value of a single bomber (20) nearly match's the point value of a target Hanger (25) and the targets at the fields are limited to just the hangers a good CIC probably will limit the exposure of the bombers to his min numbers. It doesn't make sense to risk 400 points worth of bombers to get 100 points in hangers. Even if the bombers have a better chance of making it. Lose 5 bombers and your gain is all lost. To many things can go wrong from escorts not escorting or bomber groups going back and forth 3 or 4 times over the same target allowing every enemy plane within 75 miles to converge on them.
If I were CIC'ing during this scenario I would only use my min numbers in bombers because of the point value of the possible gain to the possible loss. The city targets are the exception and bombers almost have to be used to take them out.
Reduce the point values of the bombers or increase the point values of the targets or reduce the numbers of targets and you will probably see more bombers used. City type targets almost require the use of bombers, so use more city type targets. I'm not sure of what ratio to recommend is, but probably a 1.5 - 2.0 ratio of target points to bomber loss's based on 7 pilots (21) bombers crossing a target would be about right to encourage more bomber usage.
Another observation: The amount of total targets. You really cant assign bombers to each target or you would have more bombers in the air than escorts when the FSO rules on splitting squad plane types are figured into the ratio's. You really cant use a lot of bombers in a plan when there are 7 targets to hit. Also you have the requirements on planes types that must be used for a frame (7 of 9 for the ALLIES). All driving the CIC to use less bombers. Don't know if this was by design or not, but its the way its working out for this scenario.
@PFactor...let's keep the comments above board. No one person is trying to ruin your FSO.
@Krusty...new map with some very specific spawn architecture. I'm sure the launch structure will be modified to better accommodate that. I'm sure DD will tweak something to eliminate the "air spawn camping".
@Viper...good comments. Agreed with the scoring. As far as number of targets goes...At a roughly 400 member player base, and a 50/50 split (for easy math), that means you have 200 allied players. Using your planning figure of roughly 7 player pilots per each of 7 targets, that means you'd have roughly 50 bomber pilots and 150 escorts, with roughly 20 escorts per target. I'd say that'd be a reasonable mix. The only problem is figuring out what "7th plane" to use, since you use the B-17, B-24, P-51B, P-51D, P-47, and P-38. I don't know if either of the Spits have the legs for anything long range.
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On more than one occasion my squad has floundered in 190s or 109s at 30k, maybe 32k at most, and watched as entire squadrons of BOMB LADEN P-47s flew above us completely unmolested, dropped on the target, and got away in a 600mph dive.
I totally agree with you, but for the totally opposite reasons.
In FSO folks have done this hundreds of times and know just how to game the game, just how to get a job done without any risk, unlike the boys in WW2 that did this for real. Historically bomb-laden P-47s may have flown into the target at 10k. Here in AH they never drop below 35k if they can help it.
Great points.
also. Just because a plane (pick one) Might have had a service ceiling of 30K +. Does NOT mean that they usually flew at that altitude. Regardless of what type of mission they were on.. In fact most of the time they didnt operate that high. This business of aircraft, particularly bomb laden ones as exampled above. Is so grossly historically inaccurate. Its well within the realm of absurdity.
Which is why I have an objection to allowing operating ceilings over 25K.
And to add to that. With a limited visual range. Only does more to add to non combat as a group can being flying well above or below you and never even be seen.
Where as 10 groups of B17s for example (30 planes in total) would definitely be noticed from lower altitudes IRL.
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Just Curious why those 262's were chasing us down to our runway at A24, I thought the axis had a sector line (6) that they couldnt cross. Perhaps the orders werent clear enough.
But overall we enjoyed the frame, it was nice to be in a good frame in a nice machine.
<S> to all participants Allied and Axis
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not moving to the spawns and the no combat past the 6 line were both explicit in the orders and on the text buffer last night ...
however spawn points were fair game after t+10 and i let the hounds loose on you after that ...
combat was a go to the 6 line and i did order the squads to close the door on stragglers east of 24 specifically the 262s ...
i want you guys having nightmares about the hoover but the limits were clearly expressed to the squads.
if they were exceeded i apologize, if you are exaggerating and in the process implying cheating,
well i hope that is not the case either, and that it is all a misunderstanding.
~II/JG-27~ AFRIKA had a good night as well ...
++S++ to all
t
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I dont know where the 6 line was but JG2 was landing at 24 and couple of the 262 where in icon range from the field.
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its close to the line. I am sure we didnt go over.
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For the record, my squad had exactly the same mission as you and a complete plane of action. We knew who was to escort your squad & our squad to the target. We knew where they were because we read the orders. we knew that they were starting 4 sectors behind us & planned accordingly. We also made & stayed in contact with the assigned escort, not that it helped your squads or my squads plight.
I should of read the orders more carefully, because had the 412th spotted the issue we would have spawned with the 47s at A61.
Sorry for the confusion. We were just following the orders.
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not moving to the spawns and the no combat past the 6 line were both explicit in the orders and on the text buffer last night ...
however spawn points were fair game after t+10 and i let the hounds loose on you after that ...
Only.... We weren't allowed to spawn until T+10... And they new exactly where we would be (en masse) and that we would still be forming up and disorganized and that hundreds of allied planes would all be lumped in a handful of key sector clusters.
Overall, it might be better to not use the air spawns, to change some of those middle fields to allied, and to have the allies take off and climb out closer to the target (because the allied fields as they were in frame 1 would have had no chance to hit targets by T+60 even if they ran level instead of climbing out).
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I dont know where the 6 line was but JG2 was landing at 24 and couple of the 262 where in icon range from the field.
Dont know if they crossed the line. but I do know that they were close enough to get the base at 24 flashing numerous times. But from my observation. None got close enough to the base when I was landing there to be a threat to my landing.
All depends on where the dar ring is if they "crossed the line"
Based on what I saw. If they did it was probably inadvertent.
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krusty what you describe is not spawn camping. it may need review but per the orders heading into the spawn areas at t+10 was cricket. feel free to bring up the issue with the designers but Luftwaffe was ordered not to bend or push the rules on the points you brought up, and as far as i can tell nobody did, at least not on purpose or with any consequences.
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Just a quick FYI.
@Krusty...new map with some very specific spawn architecture. I'm sure the launch structure will be modified to better accommodate that. I'm sure DD will tweak something to eliminate the "air spawn camping".
Working on a couple ideas, not sure which one will work best. :) Objectives for Frame 2 will go out tonight.
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I would keep the air spawn location a secret. :salute
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I don't know if either of the Spits have the legs for anything long range.
For clarity to assist the CIC planning this week:
Spit 16 carrying slipper tank has 42 minutes endurance at the spawn. Having them escort heavies on a raid that takes 40 minutes to get to target, tests the skill set, when a fight and perhaps rtb is factored in.
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For clarity to assist the CIC planning this week:
Spit 16 carrying slipper tank has 42 minutes endurance at the spawn. Having them escort heavies on a raid that takes 40 minutes to get to target, tests the skill set, when a fight and perhaps rtb is factored in.
Would spits and temps have had the legs to do this mission without an airspawn close to the enemy? I doubt it.
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Oh, and just another observation, if everyone in the mission is assigned to carry ordnance, there is no escort, even if you call them "escorts" in the orders...
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We should have 152s. H-0s began operations in fall 44
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Preproduction testing was done on less than 20 models of the Ta152, and there's no guarantee any of those saw combat considering the PRODUCTION models only 12 were fielded after January of 1945.
No need for the 152. Dora climbs better and dogfights better, and is faster down low on the deck. Up until 20K the Dora is really the plane to be in. Above that... well above that is another matter, but the 152 is pretty darned rare in WW2.
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Preproduction testing was done on less than 20 models of the Ta152, and there's no guarantee any of those saw combat considering the PRODUCTION models only 12 were fielded after January of 1945.
No need for the 152. Dora climbs better and dogfights better, and is faster down low on the deck. Up until 20K the Dora is really the plane to be in. Above that... well above that is another matter, but the 152 is pretty darned rare in WW2.
Well there were more than 12 h-0s and h-1s. Before January there was a handful. We really need a plane that can fight well above 20,000 considering every plane I saw was 27,000 plus. Nov the few that were built began combat operations.
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No need for the 152. Dora climbs better and dogfights better, and is faster down low on the deck. Up until 20K the Dora is really the plane to be in. Above that... well above that is another matter, but the 152 is pretty darned rare in WW2.
Deck doesn't matter. Fight is at 30-35K and a 262 barely stays in the air at that alt. I was at 29K and had ponies screaming down on me.
The allies know this and that's why they send their buffs in the stratosphere.
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No need for the 152. Dora climbs better and dogfights better, and is faster down low on the deck. Up until 20K the Dora is really the plane to be in. Above that... well above that is another matter, but the 152 is pretty darned rare in WW2.
:huh :confused: i am not sure i agree with you on that :salute
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Hats off to the P51 pilots. They were disciplned on staying up in low orbit. My 262 was hard to handle up there. And of course pilot wound was only damage I took. :salute
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I totally agree that some LW planes have a very hard time at alt. 99% of the time that's where I am, sucking air in a dora that can't fly level at 30k. My group this time ran into MORE than a few 109G14s and K4s that appeared to come in from 35k with ease. Last frame 109Ks over 30K decimated an entire P-47 strike package (2, possibly 3 entire squadrons of us).
However, the Ta152 was really a blip on the radar as far as plane development goes. Only one gruppe (12 planes) was officially assigned to fly them. Over 70 were built, but they never got from the production parking lots to the front line units what with the end-of-war chaos and all.
Let's put it this way: 10x more P-47Ms were flown (officially) than Ta152s. We don't have them in here, do we? For good reason, they weren't really part of the setup.
If you really want more high-alt planes, petition for a greater percentage of 109Ks, less G14s, to represent the G6/AS's, the G-10s, the G-14/AS's that would all have had higher-alt capabilities. They would be far more representative.
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I totally agree that some LW planes have a very hard time at alt. 99% of the time that's where I am, sucking air in a dora that can't fly level at 30k. My group this time ran into MORE than a few 109G14s and K4s that appeared to come in from 35k with ease. Last frame 109Ks over 30K decimated an entire P-47 strike package (2, possibly 3 entire squadrons of us).
However, the Ta152 was really a blip on the radar as far as plane development goes. Only one gruppe (12 planes) was officially assigned to fly them. Over 70 were built, but they never got from the production parking lots to the front line units what with the end-of-war chaos and all.
Let's put it this way: 10x more P-47Ms were flown (officially) than Ta152s. We don't have them in here, do we? For good reason, they weren't really part of the setup.
If you really want more high-alt planes, petition for a greater percentage of 109Ks, less G14s, to represent the G6/AS's, the G-10s, the G-14/AS's that would all have had higher-alt capabilities. They would be far more representative.
ok i gotcha now :salute :salute
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I totally agree that some LW planes have a very hard time at alt. 99% of the time that's where I am, sucking air in a dora that can't fly level at 30k. My group this time ran into MORE than a few 109G14s and K4s that appeared to come in from 35k with ease. Last frame 109Ks over 30K decimated an entire P-47 strike package (2, possibly 3 entire squadrons of us).
However, the Ta152 was really a blip on the radar as far as plane development goes. Only one gruppe (12 planes) was officially assigned to fly them. Over 70 were built, but they never got from the production parking lots to the front line units what with the end-of-war chaos and all.
Let's put it this way: 10x more P-47Ms were flown (officially) than Ta152s. We don't have them in here, do we? For good reason, they weren't really part of the setup.
If you really want more high-alt planes, petition for a greater percentage of 109Ks, less G14s, to represent the G6/AS's, the G-10s, the G-14/AS's that would all have had higher-alt capabilities. They would be far more representative.
Ta-152's is about as representative as JABO's on 8th AF raids and B17s/B24s escorted over germany by tempests and spitfires. I notice the allies failed to put up enough B17s, B24s, and zero A-20's this frame. It's somewhat frustrating be LW and searching for non-existant bombers. If this was simply going to be a fighter vs fighter setup someone should change the description.
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I know I'm grumpy, but I really hate seeing the Allies use Jabos during 8th AF FSOs...
+1 :aok