Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Muzzy on September 11, 2010, 01:47:41 PM
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I'm hoping this is appropriate for Help and Training since it could be a useful learning tool. If not I'll move it elsewhere.
1. Post a match-up as [plane x] against [plane y]
2. Followup poster describes how plane x can defeat plane y, then posts another match-up
E.G.
Post 1: Brewster against La-7
Post 2: TURN YOU IDIOT TURN! Mustang against Mossie.
You can be as detailed or as brief as you want, but the idea is to be helpful or at least entertaining.
First Match Up:
Dora against Spit Sixteen
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Don't up in the first place. 51 v K4
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Keep your speed up, hang on to your e, make him bleed off his avoiding your attacks and for the love of dog don't follow him up into the vertical.
P47N against Dora
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Keep your speed up, hang on to your e, make him bleed off his avoiding your attacks and for the love of dog don't follow him up into the vertical.
P47N against Dora
Avoid the Ho shot from the Dora. Reverse and kill him after his stick stirring subsides.
P38L vs KI84
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Don't up in the first place. 51 v K4
I disagree with this, there used to be plenty of 51 sticks who could give a k4 a run for its money but they all seem to have disappeared :lol what gives?
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I disagree with this, there used to be plenty of 51 sticks who could give a k4 a run for its money but they all seem to have disappeared :lol what gives?
Skat is on leave and don't know where Steve is. The rest are in training. P38L vs KI84 ;)
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Skat is on leave and don't know where Steve is. The rest are in training. P38L vs KI84 ;)
GrmRpr was the best 51 stick I came across although he needs a personality transplant! :D
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Uh, actually I posted how a 51 could beat a K4. "Don't up in the first place" was with regards to a Dora vs. a Spitsteen.
Now about the 38L vs Ki84? :)
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Turn to the right. Use flaps. Hang the 84 in the vertical towards the right.
K4 vs NIKI
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I disagree with this, there used to be plenty of 51 sticks who could give a k4 a run for its money but they all seem to have disappeared :lol what gives?
I was posting on the subject of dora vs spixteen. A pony can definately hold its own against k4. you just have to be smart and know when to disengage and reset the fight. While it may able to make a few turns, extended fights are not advised, but that is very general. You'd have to use your own judgment on whether you can press the attack, or need to reset. To winfrom a typical merge requires either a very e-managing merge, or an extremely tight merge using the high-speed flaps. Generally, the latter is more easily defeated by the k4, as all he has to do is match or roughly match your turn, as he can gain E much faster than a 51. The former, on the other hand usually results in a necesarry E advantage, as the 51 has a better zoom climb, atleast from my experiences. You have to be pretty fast converting said E into angles though, as the E states will ultimately be evened out, at which point it is advised to reset and try again. Being patient is key. I've had the pleasure of fighting plenty of very good K4 sticks, and this tactic fairs very well for the most part.
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Uh, actually I posted how a 51 could beat a K4. "Don't up in the first place" was with regards to a Dora vs. a Spitsteen.
Now about the 38L vs Ki84? :)
38L vs the Ki84 is no fight, only chance the 38 has is to bring a niki and a zeke along with him and hope his wingmen are good sticks!
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I was posting on the subject of dora vs spixteen. A pony can definately hold its own against k4. you just have to be smart and know when to disengage and reset the fight. While it may able to make a few turns, extended fights are not advised, but that is very general. You'd have to use your own judgment on whether you can press the attack, or need to reset. To winfrom a typical merge requires either a very e-managing merge, or an extremely tight merge using the high-speed flaps. Generally, the latter is more easily defeated by the k4, as all he has to do is match or roughly match your turn, as he can gain E much faster than a 51. The former, on the other hand usually results in a necesarry E advantage, as the 51 has a better zoom climb, atleast from my experiences. You have to be pretty fast converting said E into angles though, as the E states will ultimately be evened out, at which point it is advised to reset and try again. Being patient is key. I've had the pleasure of fighting plenty of very good K4 sticks, and this tactic fairs very well for the most part.
Sorry TJ got my wires crossed mate :salute
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Sorry TJ got my wires crossed mate :salute
Thought so, seeing as its been my main ride for the past four or five months ;)
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Insano you get to post a matchup next.
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Should be an interesting thread <S>
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I'm always intrigued by this.
109E vs spit 1
109F vs spit 5
109g2 vs spit 9
109g14 vs spit 16
109k vs spit 14
ki 84 vs spit 8
Ki 61 vs p-39d
109E vs I-16
I know that i'm gonna encounter these match ups in AvA or some special events
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For 109F and beyond vs Spits, you use your superior smash and/or climb rate, whichever happens to be applicable. Capitalize on that advantage before the Spit draws you into a turn fight.
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109k and spit 14. 109 has to win in the vertical fight, not turning. The Spit has to win in the dive, get the 109 to turn, and try to win the E battle.
A6M5b vs. P-38L
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Dont follow the P-38 in the vertical, bleed him dry of E by avoiding his BnZ's, then once you have him slow kick him in the teeth with a slow turn, and dont use flaps in the Zero
N1K2 vs F4U-1C
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I'm always intrigued by this.
109E vs spit 1
109F vs spit 5
109g2 vs spit 9
109g14 vs spit 16
109k vs spit 14
I know that i'm gonna encounter these match ups in AvA or some special events
In a strictly one on one situation the Spits will defeat all of the above except for the 109k4 vs Spit 14.
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You're such an RAF fanboi Bruv.
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N1K2 vs F4U-1C
For a clean fight i would try to make it slow and switch to vertical. Below 10K N1K2 has a big climb and acceleration advantage.
Spit 14 vs 109k4
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I'm always intrigued by this.
Ki 61 vs p-39d
I know that i'm gonna encounter these match ups in AvA or some special events
The Ki-61. I cannot speak for anyone else flying it.
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Spit14 and K4? Well this is an interesting one. If I were in the 109 I think what I'd try to do is get the spit down low where it couldn't dive away and try to stall him out with hard left climbing turns. With alt I'd imagine the fight would go easily to the spit.
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Dont follow the P-38 in the vertical, bleed him dry of E by avoiding his BnZ's, then once you have him slow kick him in the teeth with a slow turn, and dont use flaps in the Zero
You won't bleed a P-38 of his energy by avoiding his BnZ attacks, the opposite will prove true. The P-38 will drain your energy by forcing you to avoid his repeated BnZ attacks. The only way a Zeke will survive against a P-38 is if [1]the P-38 pilot is dumb enough to try and turn fight with a Zeke at medium to low speeds (if both are at high speeds over 325mph IAS, P-38 will be able to keep up in turns until the fight speed slows down below 300mph IAS) or [2] the P-38 pilot become impatient and gets suckered into stopping the BnZ attacks and trying to turn with the Zeke.
Remember, the P-38 has the speed, acceleration (at any speeds), climb rate, etc., to dictate the fight against the Zeke.
ack-ack
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You won't bleed a P-38 of his energy by avoiding his BnZ attacks, the opposite will prove true. The P-38 will drain your energy by forcing you to avoid his repeated BnZ attacks. The only way a Zeke will survive against a P-38 is if [1]the P-38 pilot is dumb enough to try and turn fight with a Zeke at medium to low speeds (if both are at high speeds over 325mph IAS, P-38 will be able to keep up in turns until the fight speed slows down below 300mph IAS) or [2] the P-38 pilot become impatient and gets suckered into stopping the BnZ attacks and trying to turn with the Zeke.
Remember, the P-38 has the speed, acceleration (at any speeds), climb rate, etc., to dictate the fight against the Zeke.
ack-ack
As demonstrated in Philippine Phandango, we bnzed A6M's all day every day until they died.
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Uptown had the first reply so he gets to post the next matchup. :aok
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Like I said... the 109s' main advantage is pure speed. The best tactic would then be to extend straightaway until the speed advantage is substantial enough and try to rope the Spit.
Coincidentally, that is also how one would use a Dora to beat a Spixteen.
Or if you can hold out long enough, 109 has substantially more WEP than the corresponding Spit, translating into a major climb rate/energy advantage, in which case you would perform a climbing turn against the Spit, accumulating enough of an E advantage, and then cash in converting E into angles for the kill.
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Great stuff in this thread. I can't contribute much, since I am new, but I have a question:
Does anyone have any film of the type of fights that are being discussed in the last few posts (ie, 38 vs zeke, or other similar "BnZ vs TnB" plane)? I understand the concepts being discussed, but I don't really understand how to execute such tactics in the air.
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P40E vs 109F
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Great stuff in this thread. I can't contribute much, since I am new, but I have a question:
Does anyone have any film of the type of fights that are being discussed in the last few posts (ie, 38 vs zeke, or other similar "BnZ vs TnB" plane)? I understand the concepts being discussed, but I don't really understand how to execute such tactics in the air.
Try these threads-
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,272282.0.html
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,272543.0.html
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,280918.0.html
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Try these threads-
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,272282.0.html
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,272543.0.html
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,280918.0.html
Thank you, Mtnman! :salute
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P40E/109F = big trouble for the P40. The F is faster by a wide magin at every alt. The F can out climb the P40 with ease and has a substantially smaller turn radius both with flaps and without. The only thing an F can't do that a P40 can is dive. If you have alt to work with the P40 can be a bugger. The P40 also has combat flaps that it can drop, IIRC, 250 mph. With this you can pull a quick reverse on an F but don't miss, the F holds all the high cards.
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You can post a matchup now, Bubbajj
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LA5 vs F4U-1A
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In a strictly one on one situation the Spits will defeat all of the above except for the 109k4 vs Spit 14.
:huh You mean in a strictly turn-fight? If the 109 maintains an E advantage and never commits to blowing it on tight turns, he'll dance circles around the spit.
LA5 vs F4U-1A
LA5 has the advantage in all categories except dive and retaining it's E from the dive. If you're the LA and the F4U comes in high, try to get away and climb to equal or higher alt, and if that's not possible go defencive and avoid his dives with break turns until he gives up his advantage, then go offencive and expect the F4U to try to dive out and break from the fight.
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:huh You mean in a strictly turn-fight? If the 109 maintains an E advantage and never commits to blowing it on tight turns, he'll dance circles around the spit.
LA5 has the advantage in all categories except dive and retaining it's E from the dive. If you're the LA and the F4U comes in high, try to get away and climb to equal or higher alt, and if that's not possible go defencive and avoid his dives with break turns until he gives up his advantage, then go offencive and expect the F4U to try to dive out and break from the fight.
the 1a is faster otd (ish) and over 10-12k (IIRC)
the 1a will out turn the la5 with flaps
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I don't have enough experience to comment on most of these, but I've got a match-up I'm curious about:
Spit8 vs A6M5
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I don't have enough experience to comment on most of these, but I've got a match-up I'm curious about:
Spit8 vs A6M5
The best way to kill an A6M is to have E on it, the spit8 is relatively fast therefore this should be easy.
The spit will BnZ until it gets and angle and take the shot, but if he gets slow with the A6m he is in trouble, as he can't out turn it.
In a rolling scissors the A6m will win, as the same for most other maneuvers.
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the 1a is faster otd (ish) and over 10-12k (IIRC)
the 1a will out turn the la5 with flaps
The 1A's top speed is actually neck-and-neck at WEP with the La-5 up to 5k, at which point the La falls off dramatically. Add a superior rate of roll, as well. Any time I've been in an La-5 (FSO and aggressor practice for same) I have to stomp all over the rudder to get anything approaching the roll rate I'm used to in the Hog out of her. Instantaneous turn even without flaps also feels less responsive in the La-5, particularly in the mid to upper speed range.
The only clean advantages the La-5 has are acceleration and rate of climb.
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38L vs the Ki84 is no fight, only chance the 38 has is to bring a niki and a zeke along with him and hope his wingmen are good sticks!
Don't kid yourself. I love fighting Ki-84s in my 38G :) Niki's too for that matter!
Turning with Zekes is a different matter though :)
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when it comes to fighting I dont think about what the other plane can do, I think about what the other plane IS doing, yes you need to understand every plane's capabilities, to be able to put up a good fight, or to understand what to do when The nme does this or that, to say "this is how you beat plane x with plane y" is a misnomer, it all depends on initial situation, E states,advantages/disadvantages, you are not fighting the plane, you are fighting the pilot controlling the plane.
learning to judge your nme's E-state, is utmost important, understanding the other planes capabilities is also important, to know that when a Zero gets fast it's controls seize up, same with the 109, not with the 51 or LA ECT ECT....
To me the merge is the most important aspect of any fight, this is where you will most likely win or loose the fight, judging what your nme's E-state is before the merge, so you can place yourself in a good firing position.
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Babalonian and Stokes had the last answers so they get to post matchups. (Not that the rules need to be followed...I'm just sayin'...)
Having a lot of fun reading the matchups and answers. :aok
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38L vs the Ki84 is no fight, only chance the 38 has is to bring a niki and a zeke along with him and hope his wingmen are good sticks!
.....and I have no clue why you even posted this. I could rattle off plenty of 28 sticks that could hand you your own arse before you knew it was gone. They would not need any help to shoot you down.
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A20G vs Boston III :aok
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D3A1 vs Me262.
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A20G vs Boston III :aok
Everyone goes its own way :bolt:
KI61 vs P38L/J
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D3A1 vs Me262.
D3A1 keeps turning low on the deck to either get a lucky ping on the 262 on the overshoot or get him to auger, the ME262 keeps BnZ untill he can calculate the angle for the tight turning D3A1, without loosing to much speed.
D3A1 vs JU87
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D3A1 vs JU87
Dude this is like comparing a rental toyota corolla to a well equipped volkswagen golf :D
Just like the VW golf, i think ju87 has solid chassis and can soak up peashooter hits better than d3a :aok
NEXT: spitxvi vs 109g14
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Dude this is like comparing a rental toyota corolla to a well equipped volkswagen golf :D
Just like the VW golf, i think ju87 has solid chassis and can soak up peashooter hits better than d3a :aok
NEXT: spitxvi vs 109g14
The Val would dominate the Ju87.
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The Val would dominate the Ju87.
how?
handicap by not using rear guns when in defensive mode?
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how?
handicap by not using rear guns when in defensive mode?
You gota go to the WW1 planeset to find a bird that you can whip around like a D3a.
I take it you have never flown a Val against a Zeke and dominated it?
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This matchup still pending. :)
NEXT: spitxvi vs 109g14
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More seriously than my first one: Mosquito Mk VI vs Bf110G-2.
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This matchup still pending. :)
I assume you mean the spit16 and G14.
The spit needs to fight downhill and use it's turning ability. The G14 needs to fight in the vertical and use it's speed to extend and keep separation while creating angles or a rope/stall on the spit. But as INK already pointed out, this all depends on the situation. Alt, player ability/knowledge, speed, weight, timing...etc.
In a co-alt duel, all the G14 has to do is climb after the merge and start the BnZ and catch the spit in the rope or in a turn with a deflection shot. The spit would have to hide it's E and surprize the G14 in the climb or sucker the G14 to engage in a turn fight.
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I assume you mean the spit16 and G14.
The spit needs to fight downhill and use it's turning ability. The G14 needs to fight in the vertical and use it's speed to extend and keep separation while creating angles or a rope/stall on the spit. But as INK already pointed out, this all depends on the situation. Alt, player ability/knowledge, speed, weight, timing...etc.
In a co-alt duel, all the G14 has to do is climb after the merge and start the BnZ and catch the spit in the rope or in a turn with a deflection shot. The spit would have to hide it's E and surprize the G14 in the climb or sucker the G14 to engage in a turn fight.
+
6
I would put my money on the spit in that match up, pilots being equal.
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me too, with some patience the 16 pilot can drag the G14 down slowly - the lower they go, the more the 16 can force a turn fight. By the same token, the G14 pilot has to keep separation and altitude in order to make sure the 16 starts its turn early. Once the spitfire starts turning, then the G14 can really use the vert.
How about Spit 9 vs. 190 A5.
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How about Spit 9 vs. 190 A5.
Fw 190: zoom & BOOM & zoom?
Also, doesn't our 190a5 climb a bit too fast?
according to a website called wwiiaircraftpeformance.org i saw that the real fw190a5s was just as fast and had roughly the same climb rate as the fw190a8
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me too, with some patience the 16 pilot can drag the G14 down slowly - the lower they go, the more the 16 can force a turn fight. By the same token, the G14 pilot has to keep separation and altitude in order to make sure the 16 starts its turn early. Once the spitfire starts turning, then the G14 can really use the vert.
How about Spit 9 vs. 190 A5.
The Spit 9 is going to have some trouble if the fight is below 5k since it can't match the A5's climb. Below 5k the Spit has to rely on turning capability and get a shot on the A5 as it zips past. Above 5k the Spit can equalize fairly easily and could also catch the A5 as it's climbing out.
Hmm...P47 M vs FW Dora
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Everyone goes its own way :bolt:
KI61 vs P38L/J
Seriously? Not a real contest unless the Ki-61 bounces the P-38 with an overwhelming altitude and energy advantage.
ack-ack
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Hmm...P47 M vs FW Dora
Has to force the Dora to turn. After that, avoid the rope and you're good.
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The Spit 9 is going to have some trouble if the fight is below 5k since it can't match the A5's climb. Below 5k the Spit has to rely on turning capability and get a shot on the A5 as it zips past.
I think this might be wrong. There is no way Spit 9 can lose this fight any alt and co E.
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I think this might be wrong. There is no way Spit 9 can lose this fight any alt and co E.
But, of course, the pilot could...
The planes in AH really don't win or lose fights, the pilots do. The "worst" plane can beat the "best" plane. I've witnessed it. I've even seen pilots in drastically inferior planes come out on top following a several-on-one scenario.
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But, of course, the pilot could...
The planes in AH really don't win or lose fights, the pilots do. The "worst" plane can beat the "best" plane. I've witnessed it. I've even seen pilots in drastically inferior planes come out on top following a several-on-one scenario.
this is my point exactly, I out turned a zero on the deck in a 152 :rolleyes: these type of discussions give off the wrong impression to noobs, they read something that says "this is how you kill" and think that is the only way to do it.
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But, of course, the pilot could...
The planes in AH really don't win or lose fights, the pilots do. The "worst" plane can beat the "best" plane. I've witnessed it. I've even seen pilots in drastically inferior planes come out on top following a several-on-one scenario.
Of course this is true and we know that. :aok
Ki-84(mg only) vs 109K and 190D how to win this :lol
2 min show up + 10 min fight http://www.mediafire.com/?dyisct9vy99gk8r (http://www.mediafire.com/?dyisct9vy99gk8r)
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I think this might be wrong. There is no way Spit 9 can lose this fight any alt and co E.
i do it all the time :aok
what about P51D vs Fw190D9? thats a sweet matchup
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oooo now that one I may know something about. The Dora can outrun, outroll and outclimb the 51, so the ponys bread and butter is in the turn fight and flaps. Stay away from the headon passes as much as possible keeping the 190 close (if he allows you) , while creating angles so that he'll want to start turning. If he won't go for the turn fight pretend he has you beat and start running away. He'll think "hahaha, I got him now..I'm faster" all ponys do is run away right? Get the fight fast, when he gets within 600 or so dump a notch of flaps and pull hard to on side while watching him, when he follows start the scissors and wait for him to fly in front of your guns.
The Doras best chance at a kill is to just BnZ the pony til he's out of E or bait him into a rope. This fight is the 190s to lose though, as I think it's a better plane if used to it's strenghts. It's when he starts letting the 51 dictate the fight is when he gets into trouble.
how about a 109K4 vs C205 :bolt:
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:huh You mean in a strictly turn-fight? If the 109 maintains an E advantage and never commits to blowing it on tight turns, he'll dance circles around the spit.
No. While the 109 might have a bigger engine, the Spit holds its E much better. If anyone will be flying circles around others, it would be the spit around the 109.
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No. While the 109 might have a bigger engine, the Spit holds its E much better. If anyone will be flying circles around others, it would be the spit around the 109.
This is correct.
Of course, all the 109 needs is one snapshot, which is usually a reasonable scenario, even against a very good spit pilot.
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The spit usually holds his e better, all the way into terrafirma. Splat.
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109k4 vs C.205 was the next matchup. :)
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I got one!
F4U-A against an LA-7, with the LA having either an alt or E advantage. I ran into this scenario in the DA :joystick:
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C205 has to work for a win against the K4.......K4 Dominates that fight honestly.
LA7 vs Spit16
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Keep the La fast try to make the spit bleed E in lag turns then rope him, or if your slower in the La cause an overshoot by the spit
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Keep the La fast try to make the spit bleed E in lag turns then rope him, or if your slower in the La cause an overshoot by the spit
See I think the LA could handle the Spit even in a slow fight just because of its accel and vertical. It is like a cross breed between a F6F and a 109 IMO.
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More seriously than my first one: Mosquito Mk VI vs Bf110G-2.
The Mosquito will win this one, given that both pilots know their planes' limitations well. The mossie can out-run, out-accelerate, and out-climb the Bf110G-2. Roll rate is about equal and the 110 can easily out-turn the mossie in the horizontal. Using its strengths, and exploiting the 110's weaknesses, the mossie pilot will want to hold his E and maintain a perch over the 110 pilot's head. From that position, the mossie can dictate the terms of the fight and shoot down the 110.
How about the P51B vs Yak9T? Both are co-alt and co-e.
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234 vs anything? 234 wins.
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Well just to chime in on a couple of points..
It is quite possible for piloting skill to overcome plane performance (I'm happy to say I've done it myself even though I'm not the best pilot) and the discussions in this thread can always be trumped by that argument. However, besides being fun and interesting, the idea was to give pilots suggestions on how to improve their tactics by understanding the capabilities of different aircraft. Again, there are no clear cut answers, but knowing the performance and capabilities of other aircraft can, IMHO, give you a certain edge in combat. It may not be enough to win a fight every time, but at least you will have a basic idea of how to approach a fight given the matchups listed. This is basically a "know your enemy, know yourself and you will triumph in a thousand battles" idea. If you know what your plane is capable of, and you know what your enemy's plane can do, you stand a better chance of success.
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The Mosquito will win this one, given that both pilots know their planes' limitations well. The mossie can out-run, out-accelerate, and out-climb the Bf110G-2. Roll rate is about equal and the 110 can easily out-turn the mossie in the horizontal. Using its strengths, and exploiting the 110's weaknesses, the mossie pilot will want to hold his E and maintain a perch over the 110 pilot's head. From that position, the mossie can dictate the terms of the fight and shoot down the 110.
How about the P51B vs Yak9T? Both are co-alt and co-e.
51B pilot easily gains the yak Ts six and fight ends in 3 turns....I think a better fight would be thee bravo vs a yak u.
I actually had a Mossie vs 110G2 fight in the DA with a squaddie last night. Mossie has an awesome rudder which can make the plane quite forgiving while going for snapshots.
We got into rolling scissors and the mossie just dictated the fight, he had to try and get out but its hard for a Mossie to miss especially in a close fight.
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Co-alt, Co-E
F4U-1A v. 109K4
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I will defer to hog and K4 experts on this one, but....
K4: use climb rate to gain E-advantage then do the tater thingy.
F4U1A: Hide and pray it doesn't find you. :pray
Okay, if that doesn't work, take it down to the deck throw out flaps and go to zeke mode, try to out-turn it.
190A5 vs. P51D
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51 because it can turn, and its faster if the 190 runs.
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I will defer to hog and K4 experts on this one, but....
K4: use climb rate to gain E-advantage then do the tater thingy.
F4U1A: Hide and pray it doesn't find you. :pray
Okay, if that doesn't work, take it down to the deck throw out flaps and go to zeke mode, try to out-turn it.
190A5 vs. P51D
From the 190A5 perspective: You can't out run nor out turn. You can, however, out roll,out dive, and out climb to a point. I would dive to the deck and but the bogey on my six. From there, execute a rolling scissors maneuver and get the snap shot.
From the 51's perspective: It's your fight to lose, stay fast and B'n'Z back and forth. If you need to, reset the fight.
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Okay, I guess I'll put out the next match-up
Spitfire Mk 16 v. 109 K-4
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Okay, I guess I'll put out the next match-up
Spitfire Mk 16 v. 109 K-4
oh that's easy!!!!
FLOTSOM TAKES THE K4 up to the stratosphere and annoys the hell out of the stargazing spixteen until it chases him. FLOTSOM then dives dragging the very annoyed spixteen Jockey down from the heavens and back to earth. when the spixteen Jockey realizes that he has been brought down so low chasing this annoying K4 it angers him greatly and with his blood boiling he is now intent upon killing this impetuous K4. the spixteen Jockey in his rage develops a severe case of target fixation and is thus blinded to the 1 to 5 Muppet's in K4's lining up on his 6. the other Muppet's, being fair sportsman, wait until just after the spixteen Jockey has managed to blast holes through every possible surface off FLOTSOM's K4 and causing said K4 to tumble earth bound without wings tail engine or clear windshield due to blood and oil spray. at the moment just before the spixteen Jockey gets to see the name of the annoying and now most assuredly dead K4 pilot BOOOOOM he takes a tater to the rectum and finds himself sitting in the tower wondering......WHAT THE F&%$K!?! then he sees it "(Muppet of choice) has shot you down"
thus proving the K4 when flown properly will always win out against the spixteen!
Brewster v. I16
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Uber v. Tuber
This is what I saw :devil
The Brewster pretty much just has to turn and keep the I-16 in check until he gets a shot.
The I-16 has to conserve E and play it smart, don't turn with the Brewster and wait for quick shots.
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oh that's easy!!!!
FLOTSOM TAKES THE K4 up to the stratosphere and annoys the hell out of the stargazing spixteen until it chases him. FLOTSOM then dives dragging the very annoyed spixteen Jockey down from the heavens and back to earth. when the spixteen Jockey realizes that he has been brought down so low chasing this annoying K4 it angers him greatly and with his blood boiling he is now intent upon killing this impetuous K4. the spixteen Jockey in his rage develops a severe case of target fixation and is thus blinded to the 1 to 5 Muppet's in K4's lining up on his 6. the other Muppet's, being fair sportsman, wait until just after the spixteen Jockey has managed to blast holes through every possible surface off FLOTSOM's K4 and causing said K4 to tumble earth bound without wings tail engine or clear windshield due to blood and oil spray. at the moment just before the spixteen Jockey gets to see the name of the annoying and now most assuredly dead K4 pilot BOOOOOM he takes a tater to the rectum and finds himself sitting in the tower wondering......WHAT THE F&%$K!?! then he sees it "(Muppet of choice) has shot you down"
thus proving the K4 when flown properly will always win out against the spixteen!
Brewster v. I16
Or you could just shoot the guy, Flotsom.
FM2 vs Seafire.
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Or you could just shoot the guy, Flotsom.
What?!?!?!?! shoot them???? as in do it myself?!?!?!?!?! well thats just plain wrong!!!!!!! ask any Muppet!!! they are training me real good!!!! and they always say that a good squaddie clears your six, a great squaddie clears your 12!!!!!!! so you see as i have only great squaddies there is never a reason for me to have to shoot anyone ever!
besides they (especially JETSOM and Grizz) are always complaining that they are in need of practice to improve thier aim so what kind of squaddie would i be if i didnt give them every opertunity to practice and improve thier skills? i am hoping though that one of these days they get good enough to actually clear my 6 before the enemy get the chance to shoot off my wings and kill my engine........but i got a feeling its gonna take years of practice before they are anywhere near that level of talented! (again especially JETSOM and Grizz)
now back to my question!!!
Brewster v. I16!?
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Here's a decent matchup I'd like to get some good feedback on:
FW190A-5 vs P-38J
Co Alt, 190 has the E advantage.
:cheers:
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In short, pilots being equal the P-38 will come out on top. The only real threat is in a rolling scissors where the FW 190A-5 can potentially use it's better roll rate to force the P-38 to squeeze out front. However, the P-38 pilot, if he spots it quick enough can use its superior slow speed handling to stay behind the FW190A-5 as the A-5 tries to force the P-38 out in front. If the P-38 driver manages to stay in back in a low speed rolling scissors, there is nothing the A-5 can really do to reverse positions as he'll not be able to match the P-38s low speed handling and at best can hope to roll the plane out of plane to throw off the aim and shots of the Lightning or hope the Lightning pilot makes a mistake that leads to him crashing.
In a match where the A-5 has an energy advantage, the fight will always favor the plane with the advantage regardless of plane type. As long as the FW 190A-5 uses proper BnZ attacks (by proper I mean aggressive BnZ, not this hand holding, limp wristed incorrect idea of BnZ that some people think means to run half a sector /rant off) and keeps up the pressure as to not allow the P-38 to regain any energy after the break turns, the A-5 should come out on top. However, if the A-5 driver becomes impatient during the BnZ passes and tries to force an angles engagement, the A-5 is going to die. Also, it is important that the A-5 driver maintains his advantage at all times and doesn't fall for the trap that just because he has more energy at the moment, doesn't mean he's got the fight won. Pretty much all of the dedicated, experienced P-38 drivers will use vertical breaks instread of break turns. What I mean by vertical breaks is that the P-38 driver will use the vertical to avoid, while at the same time meeting the BnZ attacker's pass. This allows the P-38 driver to gain altitude on each pass as they break to avoid the BnZ attack while at the same time "putting energy in the bank" to use later on. After a few passes, the P-38 driver will usually have equalized that altitude advantage the A-5 enjoyed though the A-5 will still have the slight energy advantage from his BnZ pass but the P-38 has the "potential" energy advantage because he's now at a higher altitude than the A-5 and can spend that altitude for energy at any time, effectively reversing positions and now in the driver's seat. Only option at this point is for the A-5 to try and run home because if he enters into the vertical, the P-38 will kill him. If he tries to turn at this point, the P-38 will kill him. If he dives and run, he might be able to escape long enough to find help from friendlies or cover from his acks. If he doesn't find safety, the P-38 will dive down and kill the A-5.
ack-ack
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In short, pilots being equal the P-38 will come out on top.....
Yeah, I agree, the 190s have some of the highest stall speeds in the game, now, if the 190 keeps a rolling scissors fast, then breaks off, gains e and repeats, he has a shot. The thing with the 190, is that it has 'hella-guns', and it doesn't take more than 1 snap shot to strip a p38 of its booms, also, setting up reversals with it is fun to do, because it rolls so fast.
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This is actually a pretty interesting matchup. The planes are comparable in some characteristics, especially at low altitude. Again, pilot skill is paramount in a situation like this, as is plane performance at altitude.
The 190A5 has better advantages on the deck. It can out-climb the 38L up to about 6k and can almost match the 38's speed at low alt (-5mph difference with WEP). The 190 also has a slightly better turn radius and that famous roll rate, which could buy it a lot of reversals. Conversely, the 38 has better climb in the 6-15k range and has comparable stats elsewhere.
Co-alt, Co-e at say 10k, the A5 wants to take things to the deck where it should be able to out-maneuver the 38 and rip it to shreds. The 38 wants to keep things at 5-12k alt and use it's climb rate to set up a shot.
The A5 driver should take it down to the deck as quickly as possible, while the 38 driver will need to use e-tactics to build an advantage. Of the two rides, the 38 has a better tactical advantage since all it needs to do is stay high, which it does really well. The thing about the A5 is that it's kind of the opposite of what you expect in an FW. In this instance, it has slightly less speed than it's opponent and slightly better turn rate, so you have to kind of think more about turning than running.
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That works for a P38L but I asked about the P38J.. They're quite different in the maneuverability department (38L has boosted ailerons, the 38J doesn't) so now you have another key to factor in when drawing a engagement between the two.
The 38J has to dictate the 190 with a lot of nose low maneuvers to build speed and difficult high speed shots for the 190. The 38J won't out roll the A-5 so to counteract that you'll want to fly using nose low reversals to make it difficult for the A5 to get a good gun solution and to gain separation and E if he's BnZ'ing you. If you're familiar with ACM you can go from a nose low pitchback to a barrel roll and work for angels and catch a good burst on the A5 if he tries to extend and climb for alt.
It's a interesting engagement indeed and IMO it boils down to the knowledge of both pilots on ACM, E management and SA.
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It's interesting how different models stack up against each other isn't it? This would be a different conversation if we were talking about the Dora.
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That works for a P38L but I asked about the P38J.. They're quite different in the maneuverability department (38L has boosted ailerons, the 38J doesn't) so now you have another key to factor in when drawing a engagement between the two.
There isn't really all that much difference between the maneuverability of the P-38L compared to the P-38J. All that I said for the J also applies for the L.
The 38J has to dictate the 190 with a lot of nose low maneuvers to build speed and difficult high speed shots for the 190.
It all depends on the kind of fight. If you're avoiding the A-5's BnZ attacks, then maneuvers like Low Yo-Yo's to meet the attack to build up E while avoiding the attack is recommended, as this give you sufficient energy to follow the attacker in the vertical for a quick shot.
The 38J won't out roll the A-5 so to counteract that you'll want to fly using nose low reversals to make it difficult for the A5 to get a good gun solution and to gain separation and E if he's BnZ'ing you. If you're familiar with ACM you can go from a nose low pitchback to a barrel roll and work for angels and catch a good burst on the A5 if he tries to extend and climb for alt.
Take the fight in the vertical, it will help negate the roll rate advantage of the A-5. Use vertical angles if in a turn fight, get the fight slow and now matter how much of a roll rate advantage the A-5 has, it will not be able to use it effectively if the fight is at low to stall speeds, where as the P-38 will be able to dance around the A-5 like Nijinsky.
Despite some other post to try and show the contrary, there isn't really a speed range where the A-5 has any sort of significant advantage over the P-38, unlike planes like the Spitfire or N1K2 where at medium speeds they'd chew a P-38 up. The same cannot be said of the A-5, the only time an A-5 is a major threat to a P-38 is if it comes into the fight with an overwhelming energy advantage and/or altitude advantage.
Like I mentioned in my other post, if the fight degenerates into a rolling scissors fight on the deck, the P-38 has the advantage if it can get it's flaps out earlier enough to slow down enough to keep in back of the A-5. If the P-38 didn't get the flaps out quick enough, things can get a little tougher but the P-38 pilot can still force a reversal by using it's slower roll rate and better slow speed characteristics to force the A-5 out front. Also, the P-38 also has the added benefit of still taking the fight into the vertical and using maneuvers like a stall loop to get a quick angle inside the A-5s slow speed turn.
It's a interesting engagement indeed and IMO it boils down to the knowledge of both pilots on ACM, E management and SA.
I honestly don't think so, a far more interesting and better match up for a P-38 (any model) would be the Ki-61 or the Ki-84. I've never felt any of the FW planes an "interesting" match up for the Lightning.
ack-ack
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This would be a different conversation if we were talking about the Dora.
If you're referring to a P-38 vs. FW 190D-9 matchup, no the conversation would be the same. In this matchup, things clearly swing in the P-38s favor and the only time a Dora would be a threat would if it if engages with an overwhelming energy and/or altitude advantage. The Dora does not compete with the P-38 in terms of maneuverability other than roll rate and at high speeds it's almost moot as the Lightning's roll rate improves with speed (all models, not just the aileron boosted L). The Dora cannot compete with any of the Lightnings in the vertical unless if comes in with an overwhelming energy advantage, otherwise the P-38 will beat the crap out of the Dora in a vertical fight. The Dora can't turn with the P-38 and if the P-38 driver uses coordinated nose low turns, the roll rate advantage of the Dora is pretty much negated. The Dora can't dive away and try to escape because the P-38 driver can keep up.
In a 1v1 matchup with equal pilots, like the A-5 and A-8, the Dora will lose unless the Lightning pilot makes a mistake.
ack-ack
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The A5 driver should take it down to the deck as quickly as possible, while the 38 driver will need to use e-tactics to build an advantage.
If the A-5 takes the fight to the deck and tries to force an angles (turn) fight, the A-5 isn't going to come out on top. The P-38 will not need to use E tactics to regain the advantage either. No offense, but your comments on the P-38 stem out of inexperience with the Lightning in both flying and fighting in it. It's clear that you don't think the P-38 can be used for anything other than BnZ or other E fighting tactics.
Of the two rides, the 38 has a better tactical advantage since all it needs to do is stay high, which it does really well. The thing about the A5 is that it's kind of the opposite of what you expect in an FW. In this instance, it has slightly less speed than it's opponent and slightly better turn rate, so you have to kind of think more about turning than running.
Again, your closing comments are born out of unfamiliarity with flying and fighting in the Lightning. The P-38 doesn't need to stay high to successfully fight and beat the A-5, in fact it's better to drag the fight to the deck and use the better slow speed handling and virtually non-existant (i.e. the most gentle stall characteristic of any fighter in AH) stall characteristics and extremely easy stall recovery of the P-38 to overcome whatever meager strengths the A-5 has over the P-38.
Just to be clear, I am not speaking about any particular model of P-38, what I said is true for all three models.
ack-ack
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While we're talking P-38,
p-38L v. N1K2
Head on merge, N1K2 at 12K, p-38 at 9k
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Well said Ack-Ack! :aok
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I agree with ack-ack, although I would like to add that K4 vs P38 is always fun. Both fight best in the vert and both can't turn very well. If both pilots are good, some awesome rolling scissors/etc.. style fights develop that are often very close.
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ok, LA7 vs. P-38 and Yak-9 vs 38
I don't lik the 38 much, I know there are some amazing sticks that beat m up all th time in them, but latly i am finding myself back in the La-7 a lot more. I know its a 'noob' ride, but its a real beast and I love trying to manage the stalls and dips and out of plane flight stuff. . .it gets up to speed fast, has a really fun gun package, and the views are fantastic (and the red nose skin makes me happy)
And of course the Yak-9, which I try get get into at least once a night to practise. . . but its a very tricky ride for me because I heistate pulling the trigger too much.
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ok, LA7 vs. P-38 and Yak-9 vs 38
I don't lik the 38 much, I know there are some amazing sticks that beat m up all th time in them, but latly i am finding myself back in the La-7 a lot more. I know its a 'noob' ride, but its a real beast and I love trying to manage the stalls and dips and out of plane flight stuff. . .it gets up to speed fast, has a really fun gun package, and the views are fantastic (and the red nose skin makes me happy)
And of course the Yak-9, which I try get get into at least once a night to practise. . . but its a very tricky ride for me because I heistate pulling the trigger too much.
The La7 isn't a noob ride, that's just something those that don't know how to fight one keep calling it to help soothe their battered ego.
As for the La-7 vs. P-38 matchup...the La 7 needs to keep it's energy and use BnZ attacks. In a turn fight, the only advantage a La 7 has it's instaneous turn rate at the beginning and as the fight slows down as it progresses, the advantage swings to the P-38's side. The La 7 doesn't have the vertical option as the P-38 is far superior to the La 7 in the vertical and unless the La 7 has an overwhelming energy advantage, the vertical game isn't something a La 7 wants to play with a P-38. The La 7 can try and use it's better climb rate to get above the P-38 but there is a risk of the P-38 "hanging back" in the climb and maintain a position (though will not have a shot) behind the climbing La 7 and waiting for the time to strike and as the altitude increases, things swing into the P-38's favor.
In short, in a La 7 you want to keep the fight low (ideally 13,000ft or lower) to use the better speed and acceleration to maintain an energy advantage and use energy fighting tactics (like BnZ). Do not get impatient and turn with the P-38 at any speeds and do not play with a P-38 above 15,000ft or higher and above 20,000ft no way in hell a La 7 will out maneuver a P-38.
As for the Yak, it's a little tougher nut to crack (but not all that much) than the La 7 but fight the Yak the same way as the La 7 and the P-38 driver really shouldn't have any troubles. Only time a Yak should be a threat to a P-38 is if the Yak has either (or both) energy and altitude advantage.
The problems with the Yak and La 7 is that they don't have a "speed range" where they can out maneuver the P-38, unlike planes like the Spitfire or N1K2 that have a speed range (medium speeds) where they'll be all over a P-38 like white on rice. With planes like the Spitfire or N1K2, the P-38 has to keep the speed out of the medium zone as much as possible to avoid being chewed up in an angles fight while there is no need to do this when fighting a La 7 or Yak. You want to keep the La 7 and Yak fast against the P-38, like I mentioned use energy tactics like BnZ to beat the P-38 into submission by making the Lightning burn its energy avoiding your BnZ passes but you need to be aggressive and use proper BnZ tactics, not the Nancy Boy version of BnZ you see the majority use where the make a too high speed pass and then Run..err I mean Zoom half a sector away which lets the target bandit regain whatever altitude and energy lost in the break turn.
ack-ack
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When I started flying the 38, I was amazed at the ease of beating LA7s. My first engagement with an LA7 on the deck, energy deficient, I was sure I was toast. I did a couple break turns, the LA7 went to the angles fight and I dominated him. I was pleasantly surprised.
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Mossie Mk6 vs P38 G or J
I know the 38 will win majority of the fights in this matchup. But what would be the Mossie's best fighting tactics to use against the 38?
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thank you Ack-Ack - that was a great write up and i thank you for taking the time. :salute
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like I mentioned use energy tactics like BnZ to beat the P-38 into submission by making the Lightning burn its energy avoiding your BnZ passes but you need to be aggressive and use proper BnZ tactics, not the Nancy Boy version of BnZ you see the majority use where the make a too high speed pass and then Run..err I mean Zoom half a sector away which lets the target bandit regain whatever altitude and energy lost in the break turn.
ack-ack
I remember years ago having a few fights with you in MW and getting my head tap danced on 109G6 vs your 38, I truly learnt something that night about E management in defeat. Every sharp move I made to avoid you I lost the energy to follow you back up, some of the moves were fakes on your part to string me up slow. I'd think I could pull up for a end of stall shot as I did so you'd slowly loop up in the other direction and come down and shoot me while I was helpless and without E. Its quite unnerving to realise you've been caught in one of these traps, against a supposedly inferior aircraft and are helpless to do anything but die!
I use the same general idea stolen from that encounter with the dora now using slow roll spirals to gain position instead of loops at the top, to overcome the d9s poor turning ability.
A lot of people seem to view a fight as pulling the piper onto the opponents plane as quickly as they can, or as a pure I turn better fight. Anything other than that they view as BnZ
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I remember years ago having a few fights with you in MW and getting my head tap danced on 109G6 vs your 38, I truly learnt something that night about E management in defeat. Every sharp move I made to avoid you I lost the energy to follow you back up, some of the moves were fakes on your part to string me up slow. I'd think I could pull up for a end of stall shot as I did so you'd slowly loop up in the other direction and come down and shoot me while I was helpless and without E. Its quite unnerving to realise you've been caught in one of these traps, against a supposedly inferior aircraft and are helpless to do anything but die!
I use the same general idea stolen from that encounter with the dora now using slow roll spirals to gain position instead of loops at the top, to overcome the d9s poor turning ability.
A lot of people seem to view a fight as pulling the piper onto the opponents plane as quickly as they can, or as a pure I turn better fight. Anything other than that they view as BnZ
Pervert,
I would appreciate if you could show me how to be successful in a 190 in a co-e situation against spit 16, etc... I was in the DA last night fighting over the lake in a 190 A5, and I could not win a single fight if I was co-e. Even using the roll rate, I would invariably overshoot and get killed, every time.
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Its quite unnerving to realise you've been caught in one of these traps,
I hate that initial thought too...the old, oh crud....do I keep going up or do I try roll away :lol :lol :lol...doesn't matter with the guys who perform this well though...their gunnery is usually as spot on as the ACM
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P38vsLA7 I Agree with a couple points ack-ack makes, but he is biased for the 38! One point is keep the LA low under 10k after 10k it performence drops consideribly. the LA has insane speed, and awesome high speed monuvering the 38 can not keep up or handle the speeds at which the LA can easily achive, LA has zero compressability issue's...so depending on initial attitude of planes will depend on what one does in a LA7 to kill the 38 if the 38 has altitude advantage, take the LA into a shallow dive to get her up to speed and get some distance to get above the 38, once there, its short work to get in behind the 38, if the LA has the inital advantage of altatude, depending on what 38 driver does, if he drops to excape, LA easily gets in behind and kills him, (38 is a nice big fat target) the only advantage the 38 has is in the ability to hang on its prop in a stall, and with a great stick it can turn quite well, so can the LA and it dont take a great stick, LA is one of the very best in hanger.
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P38vsLA7 I Agree with a couple points ack-ack makes, but he is biased for the 38! One point is keep the LA low under 10k after 10k it performence drops consideribly. the LA has insane speed, and awesome high speed monuvering the 38 can not keep up or handle the speeds at which the LA can easily achive, LA has zero compressability issue's...so depending on initial attitude of planes will depend on what one does in a LA7 to kill the 38 if the 38 has altitude advantage, take the LA into a shallow dive to get her up to speed and get some distance to get above the 38, once there, its short work to get in behind the 38, if the LA has the inital advantage of altatude, depending on what 38 driver does, if he drops to excape, LA easily gets in behind and kills him, (38 is a nice big fat target) the only advantage the 38 has is in the ability to hang on its prop in a stall, and with a great stick it can turn quite well, so can the LA and it dont take a great stick, LA is one of the very best in hanger.
UBERDWEEB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
hell next youll be extolling the virtues of the spixteen!!!!!!!
you and Kappa planning on spending some uber quality time together gracefully flying side by side all nice and cozy watching the virtual sunset together???
kinda sux that you now live 1500 miles away doesnt it??????? :neener: :rofl :neener: :rofl :neener:
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lol....Flots.....ya it does.....:-(
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lol....Flots.....ya it does.....:-(
well be sure to give my love to the family! oh and if you really feel the need you can treat my brat as my proxy and just give her any beating you were considering giving me!!!!
get you arse online SOON!
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Pervert,
I would appreciate if you could show me how to be successful in a 190 in a co-e situation against spit 16, etc... I was in the DA last night fighting over the lake in a 190 A5, and I could not win a single fight if I was co-e. Even using the roll rate, I would invariably overshoot and get killed, every time.
Don't fly A5 fly D9 will be online this saturday poss friday night as well bud.