Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Perrine on September 15, 2010, 03:00:54 PM

Title: Is N1K2-J really a slow roller?
Post by: Perrine on September 15, 2010, 03:00:54 PM
god that plane rolls so slow even at slow speeds

I read somewhere that N1k2-j can roll 82°/sec at 240 mph... and the n1k2-j that we have here can barely roll with ki 84 and its almost equal to A6M :mad: :headscratch:
Title: Re: Is N1K2-J really a slow roller?
Post by: FLS on September 15, 2010, 03:08:51 PM
So how long does it take you to roll the N1k2j 360 degrees at 240 mph?

Title: Re: Is N1K2-J really a slow roller?
Post by: curry1 on September 15, 2010, 03:48:26 PM
So how long does it take you to roll the N1k2j 360 degrees at 240 mph?



only one way the thread can go from here.
Title: Re: Is N1K2-J really a slow roller?
Post by: FLS on September 15, 2010, 04:14:00 PM
only one way the thread can go from here.

Do you say that because you lack imagination or because you rolled it in 4.4 seconds?  :D
Title: Re: Is N1K2-J really a slow roller?
Post by: Perrine on September 15, 2010, 04:17:41 PM
Do you say that because you lack imagination or because you rolled it in 4.4 seconds?  :D


that's still incredibly slow compare to likes of ki61
Title: Re: Is N1K2-J really a slow roller?
Post by: Stoney on September 15, 2010, 04:26:14 PM
that's still incredibly slow compare to likes of ki61

I think FLS asked the most appropriate question.  How long did it take you to roll it at 240mph?
Title: Re: Is N1K2-J really a slow roller?
Post by: Masherbrum on September 15, 2010, 04:26:56 PM
that's still incredibly slow compare to likes of ki61

Two different planes, it's apples and oranges.   
Title: Re: Is N1K2-J really a slow roller?
Post by: Little Dragon on September 15, 2010, 06:12:30 PM
Two different planes, it's apples and oranges.   
hmm, sounds like a quote stolen from Shuffler   :D
Title: Re: Is N1K2-J really a slow roller?
Post by: curry1 on September 15, 2010, 09:20:41 PM
6.7 seconds
Title: Re: Is N1K2-J really a slow roller?
Post by: Stoney on September 15, 2010, 10:04:34 PM
6.7 seconds

Ok, now we just need to figure out whether or not the OP's source is accurate or not...
Title: Re: Is N1K2-J really a slow roller?
Post by: Perrine on September 15, 2010, 10:18:48 PM
Ok, now we just need to figure out whether or not the OP's source is accurate or not...


sauce

Quote
...Shiden-Kai proved to be one of the best "dogfighters" fielded by either side. Along with high speed, the fighters were very agile with a roll rate of 82°/sec at 386 km/h (240 mph)... [5][6]

5. ^ Francillon 1971, pp. 57-58.
6. ^ Francillon 1979, p. 325.
Title: Re: Is N1K2-J really a slow roller?
Post by: Perrine on September 15, 2010, 10:26:21 PM
Here's my procedure.

1. 25% fuel load
2. climb to 2,500 feet
2. maintain ~240 mph
3. roll

My best roll is around 6+ seconds, no way I can get down to 4.4.
Title: Re: Is N1K2-J really a slow roller?
Post by: Stoney on September 15, 2010, 11:18:19 PM

sauce


Any idea what Francillon's primary source was?
Title: Re: Is N1K2-J really a slow roller?
Post by: Perrine on September 15, 2010, 11:29:45 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawanishi_N1K#cite_note-5
Title: Re: Is N1K2-J really a slow roller?
Post by: SectorNine50 on September 16, 2010, 03:34:05 AM
Is 240 speed indicated, or TAS?  I imagine altitude would have a large impact on this.

However...

I am often wrong.
Title: Re: Is N1K2-J really a slow roller?
Post by: Perrine on September 16, 2010, 03:36:16 AM
Is 240 speed indicated, or TAS?  I imagine altitude would have a large impact on this.

the one with the white needle

Title: Re: Is N1K2-J really a slow roller?
Post by: SectorNine50 on September 16, 2010, 03:47:43 AM
the one with the white needle



Right, which is indicated.  But I'm wondering if the roll rate was measured using TAS, which would be the red needle, which would change with altitude.
Title: Re: Is N1K2-J really a slow roller?
Post by: bozon on September 16, 2010, 04:01:28 AM
6.7 seconds
Right or left? with our without rudder assist?
Title: Re: Is N1K2-J really a slow roller?
Post by: Wmaker on September 16, 2010, 06:52:39 AM
Looking at the Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawanishi_N1K (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawanishi_N1K)), those citations in reference to Francillon are actually meant for this sentence: As a bomber interceptor, the N1K2-J was less successful, hampered by a poor rate of climb and reduced engine performance at high altitude. and not for the mention about the roll rate. I have a 1970 edition of the Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War at hand and it says exactly that in it and mentions nothing about the roll rate.
Title: Re: Is N1K2-J really a slow roller?
Post by: Stoney on September 16, 2010, 07:01:07 AM
Looking at the Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawanishi_N1K (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawanishi_N1K)), those citations in reference to Francillon are actually meant for this sentence: As a bomber interceptor, the N1K2-J was less successful, hampered by a poor rate of climb and reduced engine performance at high altitude. and not for the mention about the roll rate. I have a 1970 edition of the Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War at hand and it says exactly that in it and mentions nothing about the roll rate.

Perrine, this is what happens when you start peeling the onion, so to speak.  Thanks for the information Wmaker.  If there is a credible source that says the aircraft should be able to perform as you suggest, then I'm sure HTC would entertain it.  Unfortunately, there's a lot of conflicting information out there that you have to weed through.
Title: Re: Is N1K2-J really a slow roller?
Post by: FLS on September 16, 2010, 07:04:50 AM
FWIW I rolled it left in 4.7 seconds with just aileron input.
Title: Re: Is N1K2-J really a slow roller?
Post by: ozrocker on September 16, 2010, 03:04:21 PM
I know how they figured 4.4. It's after 1 wing shot off, will roll like a MoFo.


                                                                           <S> Oz
Title: Re: Is N1K2-J really a slow roller?
Post by: Babalonian on September 16, 2010, 03:16:01 PM
Right or left? with our without rudder assist?

What I was thinking in regards to the OP.  W/ or w/o rudder input and w/ or against the engine torque?
Title: Re: Is N1K2-J really a slow roller?
Post by: curry1 on September 17, 2010, 05:34:27 PM
Right or left? with our without rudder assist?

I don't remember but i used no rudder as i figured it was just the roll.  But I never thought the N1k was a good roller in the first place.
Title: Re: Is N1K2-J really a slow roller?
Post by: wells on November 09, 2010, 12:17:38 AM
I think that 82 deg/s figure originally came from AW ( Air Warrior ).  There was one that was captured and test flown in the Philippines.  The pilot's report had this to say about roll...

Quote
The aircraft was then tested from the stall up to 360 mph indicated and the rudder proved light and effective at all speeds while the ailerons were found to be effective but slightly on the heavy side at all speeds up to about 320 mph.  The rate of roll was good up to 360 mph at which the ailerons became extremely heavy.  The controls were unbalanced in that the rudder and elevators were much lighter than the ailerons and could be considered as too light.

Quote
...it executed rolls and Immelmans rather sloppily but turned well as a result of its good rate of roll and light elevators.

Source:  Air Enthusiast April 1973
Title: Re: Is N1K2-J really a slow roller?
Post by: Mister Fork on November 09, 2010, 12:49:12 AM
"the Shiden-Kai showed itself in operations to be one of thw finest fighter aircraft to take part in the war in the Pacific. It maintained or improved upon its predecessors' reputation for ease of handling and agility in air-to-air combat..."1

1 - Weapons and Warefare.  Volume 18. pp1961-1962.


That doesn't sound like it suffered from a poor or average roll-rate.  I can't find my History of Japanese Aviation book. :furoius ...

:)
Title: Re: Is N1K2-J really a slow roller?
Post by: MK-84 on November 09, 2010, 07:53:54 PM
well, you could start from idle, hammer the throttle down and crank the rudder over as well, i bet it'll snaproll faster than 4.4  :aok