Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Hawklore on September 21, 2010, 09:57:33 PM
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Sorry guys, I need some help arguing for the Hurri.
We all know performance wise the Spitfire obviously wins.
Now, what about pilot protection?
I'm seeing conflicting reports that the Hurri was or was not equipped with armor plates for the pilot. They were or were not modified with metal structures, and they were or were not modified with self sealing tanks.
I'm sure post BOB they were. But I'm talking BOB.
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actually, i've read(fairly often) that the hurricane was a much more stable gun platform, and could pretty much out turn a spitfire, and a 109.........
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actually, i've read(fairly often) that the hurricane was a much more stable gun platform, and could pretty much out turn a spitfire, and a 109.........
Ok, now did the Spit II came out during the BoB (ass end of the battle) or after? If it did came out during, can the Hurr still out preformed it?
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First squadron to receive spit II was in august of 1940. The spitfire always outperformed the hurricane. Thats why spits were assigned to fight the escorts and hurri's to kill the bombers.
Hurri IIb was the one that had additional armor added but that was right at the end of or after BoB.
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Early Hurricanes had fabric wings as well as the fuselage behind the cockpit. The fuselage fabric remained although they did go to an all metal wing. Not many fabric wing Hurri's left by the B of B though. Both the Hurricane and Spitfire had their fuel tanks right in front of the pilot. Both had armor glass added to the front of the windscreen and both had armor plate behind the pilot. Initially both planes did not have armor plate or self sealing fuel tanks.
By the time of the B of B, the armor plate, self sealing gas tanks, etc were standard on both fighters.
The Spit II was basically a Spitfire I built at the Castle Bromwich factory instead of the factory at Southampton. Somewhat similar to comparing the P51B to P51C or Spit LFIX to LFXVI. About the only visible difference is the Koffman starter bulge on the front right of the engine that eliminated the need for an external starter cart for the Spitfire. Spit IIs did get retrofitted with metal ailerons at some point when the airwar was being taken to France in 1941. You'll also find photos of Spit IIs with a more rounded propeller spinner in some cases.
The first Spit IIs did arrive at the tail end of the B of B and the only flying B of B survivor Spitfire is a Spitfire II with the RAF Battle of Britain Flight.
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First squadron to receive spit II was in august of 1940. The spitfire always outperformed the hurricane. Thats why spits were assigned to fight the escorts and hurri's to kill the bombers.
Hurri IIb was the one that had additional armor added but that was right at the end of or after BoB.
also, if i'm remembering correctly, the IIb also had a 12 gun platform?
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First squadron to receive spit II was in august of 1940. The spitfire always outperformed the hurricane. Thats why spits were assigned to fight the escorts and hurri's to kill the bombers.
Hurri IIb was the one that had additional armor added but that was right at the end of or after BoB.
Thanks for clearing that up, Good info!
also, if i'm remembering correctly, the IIb also had a 12 gun platform?
I have heard something about one of the Hurr models having the 12 gun platform. Where is Ack-Ack or Larry? I bet they will say something about it.
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The 303 "Kosciuszko" Squadron had the most victories out of any RAF squadron, in the Battle of Britain. They flew Hurricane Mk. 1's.
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The Spit II was basically a Spitfire I built at the Castle Bromwich factory instead of the factory at Southampton
Inaccurate I am afraid.The difference between the Spit 1 and the Spit II was the engine, The Spit 1 had a Merlin III 1030 hp where the MkII had a Merlin XII 1175 hp.
As for armour, both the hurricane and the spitfire had pilot armour. As far as structure is concerned and not skin the hurricane had a metal tubular frame and if I can dig out a schematic here i will post it later. (I have seen some of the Blueprints for the Hurricane on site somewhere!)
As has been stated the Spitfire was always the better fighter and I think it was Bob Doe who said when asked which the question of which was the better fighter he replied although the Hurricane shot down more aircraft during the BoB the hurricane alone could not have won the battle had it been the sole fighter where as the spitfire could have.
VoX
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MkII had constant speed prop too, vast improvement on the previous dual-pitch prop. pilots liked this :aok
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Originally the hurricane had no armour.During the battle of France i believe no1 squadron (i could be wrong) started fitting armour behind the pilot seat
from fairy battles.After this was proved to work and hand no effects on the handling it was then decided to fit armour to all hurricanes.
The hurricane had the highest number of victories because there were more of them If there had been more spitfires and less Hurricanes it would have been the other way around.
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Have any of you fellas been invited to speak at the Spitfire Survivor Meets ( not sure what it is called) in England?
I'm thinking one has.
The Hurris main job was to attack the bombers while the spits fought the fighter cover. I read this on a gum wrapper.
I also read this on a gum wrapper....... "big shots are usually of low caliber"..... has nothing to do with this thread but I thought it was funny.
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Have any of you fellas been invited to speak at the Spitfire Survivor Meets ( not sure what it is called) in England?
I'm thinking one has.
The Hurris main job was to attack the bombers while the spits fought the fighter cover. I read this on a gum wrapper.
I also read this on a gum wrapper....... "big shots are usually of low caliber"..... has nothing to do with this thread but I thought it was funny.
lol, good reference coming off a gum wrapper.
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Inaccurate I am afraid.The difference between the Spit 1 and the Spit II was the engine, The Spit 1 had a Merlin III 1030 hp where the MkII had a Merlin XII 1175 hp.
VoX
The key word was basically the same. The II was the Spit I with all the in service refinements through June 1940. Some Mark Is were also retrofitted with the Merlin XII. Same airframe etc. Again it's like comparing the LFIXe to the LFXVIe. Same bird, slightly different engine with similar performance built at different factories. That and the II having the Coffman starter as mentioned previously.
The constant speed props were developed for the Spit I and Hurri I as well. They did start with the two blade fixed pitch, then the three blade two pitch props, but were constant speed props by the B of B.
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Thanks for clearing that up, Good info!
I have heard something about one of the Hurr models having the 12 gun platform. Where is Ack-Ack or Larry? I bet they will say something about it.
I'm pretty sure it was the Hurricane IIA Series 2 (later renamed to Hurricane IIB in early '41) that had the 12 .303 machine guns. This Hurricane though was largly intended to be used in the intruder role as it also fitted with racks that allowed the IIB to carry either 2x 250lb or 2x 500lb bombs or two 45 gallon drop tanks that essentially doubled the Hurricane IIB's fuel load. The price of these modifications came at a price though as it lowered the top speed of the IIB to just above 300mph.
ack-ack
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The extra .303s were shoehorned into the wings outboard of the ammo storage pans because during the BOB they proved seriously underpowered for taking down rugged bombers.
The extra .303s were added in, increasing the firepower by 50%, but at serious detriment to roll rate and adding a bit of weight.
The IIB did not last long because the 4x20mm were deemed far more capable.
The only problem is by this time the Hurricane was falling behind in terms of design. Not long after it was relegated to ground attack and second tier activities. The Spitfire had ascended. It would not come back down until after the war's end.
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From what I've seen and read,the Spits worked on the fighters and the Hurricanes attacked the bombers.Corky mentioned the Hurricane's forward fuel tank,and I guess a lot of Hurri pilots were horribly burned if that tank was hit.The Spit was the better aircraft,but the Hurricanes had more kills.
I've never been able to understand how Goering and the Luftwaffe thought the 109's could afford any decent escorting with 10-15 minutes over Great Britain before they had to had back to France.As good as Germany was with technology and they couldn't fix that perplexing problem.The 109 Emil at that time was the equal to the Spitfire,and to stifle it because of it's time over target was minimal is astonishing.
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Yes the Hurri was armour plated behind the pilt but the Spit had a slight advantage over the Hurri.
Altho the spits armour plating behind the pilot was lighter and not as strong as the Hurri's this is because of the metal Skin of the Spit was made out of steel and was part of the strength provided and if you imajine a bullet hits the metal skin like all other objects its hitting a wall altho it penetrates its velocity has been slowed thus a Slightly lighter Armour plating was used in the Spit. But as the Hurri was all Fabric fueselage it required a mutch heavier andthicker armour plating behind the pilot.
And i do believe that , that made the Hurri Heavier than the Spit in straight line speed thus slower. But as it was slower it could out roll and out turn the Spit and 109. And many a Hurri pilot was saved due to this ability. Whilst going for the Bombers In 1940 :)
P.S I bet $5 that some one is going to tell me thats a load of **** :lol
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Yes the Hurri was armour plated behind the pilt but the Spit had a slight advantage over the Hurri.
Altho the spits armour plating behind the pilot was lighter and not as strong as the Hurri's this is because of the metal Skin of the Spit was made out of steel and was part of the strength provided and if you imajine a bullet hits the metal skin like all other objects its hitting a wall altho it penetrates its velocity has been slowed thus a Slightly lighter Armour plating was used in the Spit. But as the Hurri was all Fabric fueselage it required a mutch heavier andthicker armour plating behind the pilot.
And i do believe that , that made the Hurri Heavier than the Spit in straight line speed thus slower. But as it was slower it could out roll and out turn the Spit and 109. And many a Hurri pilot was saved due to this ability. Whilst going for the Bombers In 1940 :)
P.S I bet $5 that some one is going to tell me thats a load of **** :lol
Aircraft engineer he says...... :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Yes the Hurri was armour plated behind the pilt but the Spit had a slight advantage over the Hurri.
Altho the spits armour plating behind the pilot was lighter and not as strong as the Hurri's this is because of the metal Skin of the Spit was made out of steel and was part of the strength provided and if you imajine a bullet hits the metal skin like all other objects its hitting a wall altho it penetrates its velocity has been slowed thus a Slightly lighter Armour plating was used in the Spit. But as the Hurri was all Fabric fueselage it required a mutch heavier andthicker armour plating behind the pilot.
And i do believe that , that made the Hurri Heavier than the Spit in straight line speed thus slower. But as it was slower it could out roll and out turn the Spit and 109. And many a Hurri pilot was saved due to this ability. Whilst going for the Bombers In 1940 :)
P.S I bet $5 that some one is going to tell me thats a load of **** :lol
You sure the skin was steel, and not aluminum?
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Aircraft engineer he says...... :rofl :rofl :rofl
...Please... if anybody knows, which manufacturer? I would very much like to avoid their aircraft in the future if at all possible.
:D
Wiley.
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Aircraft engineer he says...... :rofl :rofl :rofl
More like a bovine excrement dispersion engineer.
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AKA Craptologist :D
That's an old one I just made up!
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Seel Alliminium ok so i typed too fast ok and didnt word it correctly so what you obviously knew what i meant :)
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Seel Alliminium ok so i typed too fast ok and didnt word it correctly so what you obviously knew what i meant :)
my point in mentioning that was that aluminum that thin, will not absorb much energy from a round.....not nearly as much as you think anyway......
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Maybe he's retired. Aircraft Engineers used to be valued more for their creativity and enginuity than historical and mathmatical accuracy, chya know. :devil :bolt:
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You sure the skin was steel, and not aluminum?
semi-monocoque duralumin actually.
ack-ack
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Maybe he's retired. Aircraft Engineers used to be valued more for their creativity and enginuity than historical and mathmatical accuracy, chya know. :devil :bolt:
Resomethin but not retired.
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Resomethin but not retired.
Correct
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Sources would be greatly appreciated!
:old:
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Seeing as I want to go into Aeronautical Engineering as a Major, I'm guessing the classes are going to be a breeze for me. :D
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Weight alone did not make the Hurricane slow. It was an overall issue with the total design. Big, thick, wings, heavy parts, draggy bumps, etc...
The pilot armor has NOTHING to do with which plane was best. It's effectively the same in both planes.
That's like saying the tires are why a Fw190 was so fast in 1942.. :rolleyes:
There's no real debate... Why was the spit better? Because it was deemed to be by the pilots and manufacturers. Make 2 different designs, both capable, and somehow one will be better than the other. Usually performance was the key. Higher, faster, quicker, etc.
IronDog: The 109Es were limited by strict close-formation, and the bombers formed up inland way way behind the fighters. Fighters had to stage, circling waiting for the bombers, stay close to them (rather than a more economical fast-cruise to target and back) while they zig-zagged over France and into the Channel to keep the RAF guessing as to their flight path, and the limitation over target was mostly a political dictation on how the war should be fought, rather than how it needed to be fought. It was handed down from above, and the officers could only obey their orders. In a straight-line to London and back, they would have had a lot more time. That said, as early as the 109E-7 a drop tank was equippable, and the problem eased (but the target no longer on the table!)
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Some important conceptual differences between the Spitfire and the Hurricane:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGp4DvFEgh8
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Been alot of BoB shows on BBC this last couple of weeks
Been really good
One show was showing that the British way over estimated the German numbers and the Germans way under estimated British forces
British had about 20 pilots in a squadron Germans had twelve
Each side thought they where equal numbers
So British thought there where twice as many german pilots out there
Germans thought there was half the amount of British pilots
Much better to over estimate your opponent than under estimate I reckon
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All the repeated "The Hurricanes were assigned to take on bombers" is largely over generalised and not entirely true. The RAF sent up squadrons based on which was assigned readiness to what sector station, which squadron was available to scramble, and which squadron was assigned to an intercept based on where they were at the time a raid was detected. In practice, a LW bomber or fighter formation was just as likely to meet a Hurricane squadron as a Spitfire squadron in actual combat. Group HQs did not distinguish between assigning an intercept based just on what type of fighter equipped what squadron, they had no such luxury. Added to that air combat is not so "neet and tidy". Any Hurricane unit that made an intercept was almost guaranteed to tangle with either 109s or 110s at some point irregardless of what some fancy "assignment" was. The Hurricanes in the BoB were almost 50 percent more numerous to Spits as well and claimed 3/4s of the kills. Hurricanes tangled with more LW fighters in the BoB than Spits did just based on their numerical differences in the RAFs OOB. In No. 11 Group (the vanguard unit) there were 14 Hurricane squadrons to 7 Spitfire at the height of the battle.
Both fighters used 100 octane fuel, had self sealing tanks, metal wings, pilot armor, and constant speed three bladed props by the time of the BoB. Statistically they performed very closely despite the Spit being about 20 mph faster at best alt and having a better high alt performance. In the end it mattered little what the fighter was, it was the pilots themselves that made the difference. An aggressive skilled pilot who was willing to get in close and shoot would be just as dangerous in either type. Thats proved by the # of aces that flew them.
Despite all the debate there just isnt much evidence that in actual combat one did any better than the other (re: BoB) but as WW2 history buffs we go on endlessly about small technical differences but they sometimes just didn't make that big of an impact.
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Some important conceptual differences between the Spitfire and the Hurricane:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGp4DvFEgh8
Those quotes were thrown about like crazy while we discussed it.
I was called a remtard, but never got a free dinner out of it, lol.
:cheers:
@Squire:
Very well put m8.
We came to this conclusion.
(The Hurricane was the backbone to the the Battle of Britain, and was a great asset to the Spit. The Spit was more like the long arm of the law.)
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I was called a remtard, but never got a free dinner out of it, lol.
Random. :)
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The spit being called long arm.... :D
It was notoriously short legged till the later models.
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Even though his instruments were shot up and not working, 2nd Lt. Jan Zumbach out-flew 5 Messerschmitts in what seemed to be suicidal dogfight in Sept. 1940. He sent of them crashing to the ground. A shaken, dazed, but alive, Zumbach landed his plane and, whilst smiling asked for "a cigarette and a glass of water".
2nd Lt. Jan Zumbach is on the left (standing)
(http://www.polishsquadronsremembered.com/303/RFkolor2.jpg)