Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: camnite on September 22, 2010, 10:07:23 PM
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now, i know they had an unique hull structure. i also have had no luck in finding the pros and cons of this type vessel.
the reason i have been wanting to find this info is the alabama(bb-60) is a museum here and wanted to know more about it.
also, how come more of this type ship still survive verses the iowa class?
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now, i know they had an unique hull structure. i also have had no luck in finding the pros and cons of this type vessel.
the reason i have been wanting to find this info is the alabama(bb-60) is a museum here and wanted to know more about it.
also, how come more of this type ship still survive verses the iowa class?
:headscratch:
Iowa Class - Four made (four preserved)
SD Class - Four made (two preserved)
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ive only heard of the iowa and the missourri being conserved sorry about that
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You talking about the battleship in Mobile? I went to school at USA just a year or so ago
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ive only heard of the iowa and the missourri being conserved sorry about that
USS Iowa (BB-61)
Iowa is currently anchored as part of the National Defense Reserve Fleet in Suisun Bay and is available for donation as a museum and memorial.
USS New Jersey (BB-62)
Decommissioned for the last time 8 February 1991, New Jersey was briefly retained on the Naval Vessel Register before being donated to the Home Port Alliance of Camden, New Jersey for use as a museum ship.
USS Missouri (BB-63)
Missouri was donated to the USS Missouri Memorial Association of Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, for use as a museum ship in 1998.
USS Wisconsin (BB-64)
Wisconsin was placed in the reserve fleet until struck from the Naval Vessel Register on 17 March 2006 so she could be transferred for use as a museum ship. Wisconsin is currently berthed at the Nauticus maritime museum in Norfolk, Virginia.
Hope this helps.
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yeah thats the ship. she's kinda like our baby here. lots of interesting stories about her, that's why i'm trying to find more info about her.
if you ever get a chance to see her or the drum(ss-228), i highly suggest you do. fyi, the drum was the first gato-class sub to enter service and is still the oldest in existence.
mash, thanks for postin' that, wasn't sure of my facts. :aok
p.s. almost forgot, uss shadwell(lsd-15) is also here,as well as another vessel, but haven't found out its name yet. the shadwell actually got a torp. in the starboard bow in the phillipines.
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Keep in mind that the South Dakota class battleships were built under the limitations of the Washington Naval Treaty that was supposed to keep numbers and sizes down on things like Battleships. So they were built at 35000 tons. The Iowa class BBs were a lot bigger and not limited by that treaty as I understand it.
None of em look as good as the clipper bow battleships anyway :)
USS California BB-44
(http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/014445.jpg)
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Gotta disagree with you this time Dan..Iowa's are beautiful.
(http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/k16000/k16282.jpg)
Old and slow doesn't win THIS race :D
(http://www.militarymuseum.org/Resources/USbb44_Calif_21_completed.jpg)
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The Iowa's were better in every important way.
Faster.
Slightly improved Armor layout.
Better Main guns
The speed is what got all four recomminished in the 80s and 90s.
The Sough Dakota class was still better then just about any other BBs in the world at the time and could have even given the Japanese Yamamtos a hard time since we had better radar and fire control.
The Movie Underseige was filmed mostly on the Alabama.
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Use the link below for details on the South Dakotas and the Iowas. Most naval historians with a bent towards engineering recognize that the South Dakotas were the best battleships on the planet until the Iowas began commissioning. Likewise, many believe that the US Navy's vastly superior fire control system, guns being aimed by remarkably accurate radar, would have been a massive advantage. This would have resulted in any of the SD class beating the snot out of the Yamato class. One estimate out of the Naval War College concluded that the SDs would score 6 to 10 hits before the Yamatos could even straddle in return. Adding to this, the Yamatos had significant weaknesses in the armor layout....
Now, imagine Halsey's New Jersey as the opposition... In terms of killing power, the Iowa's 16"/50 cal guns were at least the equal to the Yamato's 18.1", largely due to a far more effective armor piercing round. Add a 4 to 6 knot advantage in speed to that mix. A final consideration is the relatively poor Japanese damage control. More than a few Japanese warships went down to damage that would not have claimed American ships due to expert damage control.
Link: http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm (http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm)
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Use the link below for details on the South Dakotas and the Iowas. Most naval historians with a bent towards engineering recognize that the South Dakotas were the best battleships on the planet until the Iowas began commissioning. Likewise, many believe that the US Navy's vastly superior fire control system, guns being aimed by remarkably accurate radar, would have been a massive advantage. This would have resulted in any of the SD class beating the snot out of the Yamato class. One estimate out of the Naval War College concluded that the SDs would score 6 to 10 hits before the Yamatos could even straddle in return. Adding to this, the Yamatos had significant weaknesses in the armor layout....
Now, imagine Halsey's New Jersey as the opposition... In terms of killing power, the Iowa's 16"/50 cal guns were at least the equal to the Yamato's 18.1", largely due to a far more effective armor piercing round. Add a 4 to 6 knot advantage in speed to that mix. A final consideration is the relatively poor Japanese damage control. More than a few Japanese warships went down to damage that would not have claimed American ships due to expert damage control.
Link: http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm (http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm)
I love that site Wide, there is a lot of very interesting info in the detailed info section.
It's a shame Halsey took the Iowas with him on Bulls run, he didn't need them.
What the US Navy ships where capable of by the end of the war was really impressive, as were the Des Moines class Heavy cruisers.
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Just don't forget those old battleships of Olendorf at the Battle of Surigo Straight. West Virginia scores at long range on her first salvo of 16" shells. The rest of the battle line crossing the T lays into the Japanese battle fleet and soon it;s all over but the shouting. Great irony that it was the Pearl Harbor survivor BBs that fought the last battleship-battleship fight.
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i still think that the so daks were the best pound for pound. i also think the layout and damage control of the the ship was better in that if the outer props were hit, the inner props were still protected by the armored skirt. the guns also had a better firing angle over the bow than the idaho with its "clipper" bow.
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Just don't forget those old battleships of Olendorf at the Battle of Surigo Straight. West Virginia scores at long range on her first salvo of 16" shells. The rest of the battle line crossing the T lays into the Japanese battle fleet and soon it;s all over but the shouting. Great irony that it was the Pearl Harbor survivor BBs that fought the last battleship-battleship fight.
Agreed. If I'm not mistaken, only the Mississippi was not at Pearl Harbor and that made 5 out of the 6 BB's being docked at Battleship Row.
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Agreed. If I'm not mistaken, only the Mississippi was not at Pearl Harbor and that made 5 out of the 6 BB's being docked at Battleship Row.
Yep. West Virginia, Maryland, Tennesee, California and Pennsylvania were the Pearl survivors that were in on that fight. Over time I've been hunting histories of all the clipper bow BBs and Mississippi is the only one I haven't been able to come across.
Good works out there on California, Tennessee, West Virginia, Idaho, Colorado, New Mexico and Maryland. For some reason I just really like the look of those BBs.
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Yep. West Virginia, Maryland, Tennesee, California and Pennsylvania were the Pearl survivors that were in on that fight. Over time I've been hunting histories of all the clipper bow BBs and Mississippi is the only one I haven't been able to come across.
Good works out there on California, Tennessee, West Virginia, Idaho, Colorado, New Mexico and Maryland. For some reason I just really like the look of those BBs.
I've always been a sucker for the Iowa's, but I believe you've converted me. BB's just have a look of elegance that is no longer seen in today's ships.
Neat pictures of the Mississippi:
(http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h94000/h94649.jpg)
(http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/g300000/g301229.jpg)
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The Google LIFE archive has some good photos. I believe this is New Mexico in really nice color
(http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/27c6a293ce93088c_large)
(http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/ef55fed69451aa29_large)
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Navada post atomic bomb...
(http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/32b20ec95db1357b_large)
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i still think that the so daks were the best pound for pound. i also think the layout and damage control of the the ship was better in that if the outer props were hit, the inner props were still protected by the armored skirt. the guns also had a better firing angle over the bow than the idaho with its "clipper" bow.
Battleships can never fire straight over the bow or the stern. Considering the Missouri's broad-side moves the ship 6 feet to the side in the water, picture an accordion ;)
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Battleships can never fire straight over the bow or the stern. Considering the Missouri's broad-side moves the ship 6 feet to the side in the water, picture an accordion ;)
Huh?
They shoot just fine over bow and stern. Takes more work to shoot over the stern but it's not a problem.
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Navada post atomic bomb...
(http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/32b20ec95db1357b_large)
Always struck me as short sighted that at least one of the Pearl Harbor BBs wasn't preserved after the war. Yeah I know the Arizona is still there, but imagine the West Virginia in the spot the Missouri sits, and then being able to walk the decks while learning the story. Talk about a missed step back in time. Nevada would have been a logical choice too considering her aborted, but epic sortie attempt that morning.
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Battleships can never fire straight over the bow or the stern. Considering the Missouri's broad-side moves the ship 6 feet to the side in the water, picture an accordion ;)
Not sure where that info came from Serenity. Olendorf 'crossed the T" at Suriago Straights, meaning his BBs were lined up across the bow of the Japanese BBs so he could fire broadside, and the Japanese were limited to their forward turrets.
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Battleships can never fire straight over the bow or the stern. Considering the Missouri's broad-side moves the ship 6 feet to the side in the water, picture an accordion ;)
Not true bud. :salute
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Considering the Missouri's broad-side moves the ship 6 feet to the side in the water, picture an accordion ;)
To calculate the velocity of the USS New Jersey moving sideways, what you need to consider is conservation of momentum. A 16" Mark 8 APC shell weighs 2,700 lbs. and the muzzle velocity when fired is 2,500 feet per second (new gun).
The USS New Jersey weighs about 58,000 tons fully loaded (for ships, a ton is 2,240 lbs.) - Emphasis added on 16 June 2006 in an effort to stop vision-impaired individuals from sending Emails about the "missing" 2,000 in the equations below.
All weights must be divided by 32.17 to convert them to mass.
If the battleship were standing on ice, then:
Mass of broadside * Velocity of broadside = Mass of ship * Velocity of ship
9 * (2,700 / 32.17) * 2,500 = 58,000 * (2,240 / 32.17) * Velocity of ship
Solving for the ship's velocity:
Velocity of ship = [9 * (2,700 / 32.17) * 2,500] / [58,000 * (2,240 / 32.17)] = 0.46 feet per second
So, ship's velocity would be less than 6 inches per second, ON ICE.
This analysis excludes effects such as (1) roll of the ship, (2) elevation of the guns (3) offset of the line of action of the shell from the centre of gravity of the ship and (4) forces imposed by the water on the ship. These are variously significant, and will all tend to reduce the velocity calculated above.
Greg Locock
http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-022.htm
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Not sure where that info came from Serenity. Olendorf 'crossed the T" at Suriago Straights, meaning his BBs were lined up across the bow of the Japanese BBs so he could fire broadside, and the Japanese were limited to their forward turrets.
Was told by several former crew of the USS Missouri. True it is second hand info.
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Was told by several former crew of the USS Missouri. True it is second hand info.
The design of the King George V class BBs was intended to maximize forward firing options. It made them very wet battleships. BBs like the Iowas and Yamatos could not fire as flat of a trajectory forward due to the shape of the hull, but they handled heavy seas far better.
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The design of the King George V class BBs was intended to maximize forward firing options. It made them very wet battleships. BBs like the Iowas and Yamatos could not fire as flat of a trajectory forward due to the shape of the hull, but they handled heavy seas far better.
What heavy seas? :) USS California riding out the storm.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/California-1.jpg)
Turns out another of the older clipper bow BBs, the USS Colorado fired more tonnage, and spent more time in combat then any other ship in the US fleet during WW2. Missed Pearl so not a familiar name, but clearly she did her work well.
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Nice pic, is that an aircraft catapault on the back I assume?
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Nice pic, is that an aircraft catapault on the back I assume?
Yep. Kingfishers on em.
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There was an FC1 in my division on the USS Independence, he was the last one to fire turret number 1 on the USS Missouri. He had plenty of sea stories about shooting the 16" guns (like messing up the SINS).
Here's a link to the turret operating procedures, the turrets could fire over the bow the same as broadside. Turrets 1 & 3 were limited to -2 degrees elevation, and turret 2 was limited to 0 degrees elevation.
http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/AMMUNITION/NAVORD-OP-769-TITLE-AND-FORWARD.html (http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/AMMUNITION/NAVORD-OP-769-TITLE-AND-FORWARD.html)
(http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/AMMUNITION/navord-op-769-5-1.jpg)
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USS Missouri Definitely at Pearl. I spoke with the con tower a couple months ago on Ham Radio during a museum celebration. They sent me a Post-Card(QSL). Nice. :old:
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USS Missouri Definitely at Pearl. I spoke with the con tower a couple months ago on Ham Radio during a museum celebration. They sent me a Post-Card(QSL). Nice. :old:
Really? Wow! I never heard any mention of them continuing to operate HAM there.
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Nice pic here: http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f?q=1940s+Hawaii+source:life&prev=/images%3Fq%3D1940s%2BHawaii%2Bsource:life%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1920%26bih%3D863%26tbs%3Disch:1&imgurl=fce065ec2bcec2c9 (http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f?q=1940s+Hawaii+source:life&prev=/images%3Fq%3D1940s%2BHawaii%2Bsource:life%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1920%26bih%3D863%26tbs%3Disch:1&imgurl=fce065ec2bcec2c9)
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Really? Wow! I never heard any mention of them continuing to operate HAM there.
Yup! One of my best Radio Moments next to a demo with grade schoolers talking the the space station. We had several grade schools in the valley connected to our repeater which was tuned to the space shuttle. You couls only talk to them for ....if I remember right, 11 minuted before blackout, from the space stations apogee to perigee. 11,000 _+ miles per hour. Radio availability at that speed, on VHF/UHF is line of sight, & from horizon to horizon isn't very far. FUN STUFF! The Kids were totally freaked!
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Nice pic here: http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f?q=1940s+Hawaii+source:life&prev=/images%3Fq%3D1940s%2BHawaii%2Bsource:life%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1920%26bih%3D863%26tbs%3Disch:1&imgurl=fce065ec2bcec2c9 (http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f?q=1940s+Hawaii+source:life&prev=/images%3Fq%3D1940s%2BHawaii%2Bsource:life%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1920%26bih%3D863%26tbs%3Disch:1&imgurl=fce065ec2bcec2c9)
Beautiful! I'm a Navy Brat. My dad served aboard the DE Brannon in the Mid 50's.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/06/446.htm
Dad Likes talking about these Hedgehogs.
http://www.google.com/images?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&hl=en&q=1+Mk10+Hedgehog+photo&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=krKvTJ2-L4y2sAPcwvSLDA&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CB8QsAQwAA&biw=1600&bih=707
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For folks interested in DE's (or just a great book on Battle of the Atlantic), I highly recommend A Measureless Peril: America in the Fight for the Atlantic, the Longest Battle of World War II, by Richard Snow. Quite excellent.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512n7JiAOSL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg)
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Thanks I'll show my Dad this. :salute
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another good read about ww2 destroyers is torpedo junction
http://books.google.com/books?id=P8GZ0KX1Gh4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=torpedo+junction&source=bl&ots=8Yverxcm8a&sig=mlVBR0Yf7cN8WctDgg6iJlLmjBk&hl=en&ei=WCWwTI3nIYK0lQfyyPHqDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAg#
i read my copy so many times that it fell in half
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Thanks I'll show my Dad this. :salute
Also, in the book, the author's dad (who was on a DE) said (as I recall) that he very much liked the movie The Enemy Below.
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The Enemy Below is one of the best movies made.
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Can't miss with "Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors" when it comes to DD and DE action. Amazing stuff old Taffy 3
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Can't miss with "Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors" when it comes to DD and DE action. Amazing stuff old Taffy 3
Yep, that is a fantastic, wonderfully done book.
I also like Hornfischer's Ship of Ghosts.
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I would suggest "Escort Commander" or "Walker R.N." same book different titles, and out of print apparently.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2nd_Support_Group
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Chiming in late but:
The SoDak's were probably the best of the "treaty" BB's, although to be honest they probably broke the tonnage limit.
The only "new" BB's to go toe-to-to with comparable IJN ships were South Dakota and Washington at the 2nd Naval Battle of Guadalcanal. SoDak had her radar and superstructure damaged early in the battle and was unable to fire effectively, but Washington (a North Carolina class BB) made hash out of Kirishima in 7 minutes.
Interestingly enough, California, Tennessee and West Virgina were all extensively refitted, to the point where they kind of resembled the new battleships and were just as capable in terms of fire control (radar upgrades) and AA defense.
US BB's currently preserved:
New Jersey
Missouri
Wisconsin
Massachusetts
Alabama
North Carolina
Texas (the only WWI era BB preserved in the world).
Iowa is on donation hold, but she is in such poor condition (wooden teak decks are ruined for example) that it's going to cost a lot to preserve her.
A bit of preservation history:
Texas was the first BB preserved. She was donated to the state and a commission was set up to provide for her. The commission made some bad mistakes during the process and the ship was in terrible condition when she was turned over to the Texas Parks and Wildlife, which raised the funds have her drydocked and repaired. Currently a project is underway to dry berth the ship, thereby protecting the hull from continuous contact with sea water.
The next major preservation effort was in the late 1950's for the USS Enterprise, and it failed, consigning the greatest warship in US history to the scrap heap. The late 50's saw the scrapping of the last of the old battleships on the rolls.
Many of the preserved BB's have shown up in films. Texas and Missouri appeared in "Pearl Harbor", Alabama in "Under Siege" (subbing for the Missouri.)