Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Muzzy on September 22, 2010, 10:12:56 PM
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Does anyone have any good instructions on how to do this? I've been victimized by it a lot, but I've never been able to pull it off. :joystick:
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Solo or with a wingman?
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Solo
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I'm not great at it, but I would think to be really good at it, you need to be good at judging what kind of energy the enemy has. If you've got more energy than him, you should be able to get him to stall out. There still has to be enough distance between you and him so he can't get the shot off before stall though.
I think you'd have more luck if you can put yourself in a position where the enemy underestimates your energy state. He won't follow you up if he knows you're going to beat him. Also, people are less likely to just go strait up in the vertical strait into the merge. If you can get him turning and slowly pulling up, he can get himself into a bad situation before he knows it.
You can do this by yourself and roll over on top, but if you've got a wingman or just a group of friendlies, an enemy sitting in the air is dead meat.
Btw, I say most of this as a victim of the rope, nothing like hearing the buzzer ringing and knowing you'll be dead in a few seconds.
I reiterate: It's all about energy states.
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Hmm....so it's a matter of being able to judge the energy state of your enemy, and knowing whether or not you can out climb him before he gets the shot at you?
Question: How do you reverse back down?
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Rudder is important because you're usually going to be really low on energy. That can help get your nose pointed down. You can kick rudder to one side and let gravity do it's thing.
However, you don't have to be strait vertical for a successful rope. If you're got the separation and energy, you can begin the pull back on the stick and roll over the top, that will put you in a position to quickly get your plane turned around. You just can't do this too early and give them a clear profile shot of your aircraft.
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There's one quick example in Qrsu's post in this thread:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,296492.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,296492.0.html)
Here's another basicly saying the same thing you've concluded about reading E
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,69170.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,69170.0.html)
I remember finding a video around here called "High Zeke," where Mntman used an F4U to rope a zero piloted by Skotty57
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Check Mtnman's post in this thread (post #30), he links to some other posts that discuss this, and have a lot of good films in there that illustrate what you're asking about.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,296567.30.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,296567.30.html)
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Read this, it was written years back by a guy who used to kill me all the time in AirWarrior. He talks about a type of rope that is my personal favorite. It takes some practice, but you can get it.
http://www.netaces.org/mastermerge/merge3/merge3.htm
When you're done reading that page, go back and start at the beginning and read the entire article, the read it all over again the next day. You'll start to recognize situations from the article in the arenas, and you'll start using what you learned bit by bit.
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IMO there's four primary elements in a successful rope:
1. Understand both your and your opponent's aircraft and their abilities.
2. Understand both your and your opponent's E states.
3. Be in a position and E state to be able to bait your enemy into an unsustainable climb.
4. Time your reversal.
If you're off in any of these you'll either be unsuccessful or worse yet dead.
As long as you know both your and your opponent's planes capabilities, properly judge E states and know what can be done with them you're off to a good start but you also need to bait your opponenet. That means flying just out of guns range allowing him to think he's going to catch you before he runs out of E. You won't want to use throttle during this phase but other means to remain just ahead of him. Most likely angle of climb will be your preferred solution.
Keep watching rearward and just before you think your opponent is going to stall begin your reversal.
I prefer to reverse going stright over the top, most likely with flaps out so I can come straight down on my opponent in full profile as he stalls although you can turn in the oblique using both flaps and rudder to get you around. This does however, give you a tougher shot but, if you do misjudge the reverse then the oblique turn is beneficial to you as it also makes his shot tougher as long as you can give him a side profile when he hits guns range.
Hope that helps.
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It’s called rope a dope for a reason. As soon as you realize what is happening, perform an escape, exit the area, climb, climb, climb and come back in above that bandit and kill him as he performs the rope on some other dope.
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Remember never attempt to rope a plane that has superior vertical performance than yours unless you attempt it with an overwhelming energy advantage. Also, don't confuse climb rate performance with vertical performance, just because your plane has a good climb rate doesn't always mean that you will have vertical performance to match your climb rate.
Anytime you want to learn how to properly Rope-A-Dweeb look me up and I'll teach you.
ack-ack
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When you begin your vertical maneuver, if the bandit keeps his nose in pure pursuit on you then you probably have a dope on the hook. Doesn't mean he won't get a shot. Relative energy states still apply but you know immediately he is basically clueless and is just pointing the guns.
If the bandit stays level or lag pursuit you might be the dope and would need to carefully evaluate whether or not your planned maneuver is a wise choice.
DISCLAIMER: Use of this tactic in a multi-bandit environment is a recipe to get killed. It requires that you go well below minimum vertical maneuvering speed and is only effective against the temporarily or permanently stupid.
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Once you are in the rope as the lead plane, timing is everything. If they are losing your plane, you may need to reverse on them earlier than you think. If they are gaining on you, then youre going to have problems unless they are far off your six. using flaps in some planes at the apex of the rope can actually buy you some time to move back in on them and other planes such as the P51 can hammerhead back on the enemy very quickly using flaps and you can get those guns pointed at them much faster. Its also better to fly with a wingman. once you get that enemy roped, have your squaddie take him out. Even last night, me and my squaddie OnFirONE were tag team roping. one of us would lead a contact or two up and the other would take them out. then the lead roper would fly down on the other's six to clear him of enemies. You can consider it like a loose vertical lufberry circle and IT WORKS WELL... both of us got out of there alive. thankfully EDO was there to clear our six once we RTB'd because we overstayed our welcome ( :lol there were 9 planes upping to kill us by then and by the time we were egressing, 2 spit16s were at our alt).
Ive learned to NEVER pull up when in a chase scene... roping an enemy that is equal to your speed and less than 1.5k off your six is one of the most dangerous moves you can think of.
Judging your enemy's energy and speed is the most crucial thing in any dogfight. rolling scissors depends on energy, speed, and maneuverability. vertical fighting all depends on energy even in tight turning aircraft and so on. Energy is key to almost all success in combat.
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Hey bro, look at this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FEo4wAlLjQ
No 'poem' facts only!
:salute
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Just a quick addition to the other things is a pretty basic timing move that I started out using. (timing when to come back down)
If you've judged the E states correctly, you know he'll be stalling out before you do, or at the same time but much lower. So I watch my own speed and around 120 or so start pulling over the top and back down on him. Start pulling just before your own stall and you should be in pretty good position for a shot. Remember this is a really basic strategy and you'll quickly see how you can build on it. Mostly it's visual and you'll want to start pulling around quickly as you can when you see his nose start to fall away to either side.
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The way I see it there are two basic kinds of ropes.
1. pure verticle E rope where you come in at 400+ on bandits lower than you...zoom around flat so the bandit turns on you then go vert until they hang on the prop...you cut throttle some at top and tork over nose down...take the shot.
2. Angle rope where you are not so fast but have some energy to spare. This is basically the opening move to vert rolling scissors...if you pull it off correctly on the first vert rollover you will get the shot first as the bandit passes under your plane. If you miss you will be in guns for the bandit on the next scissor...if this happens then you pull early up creating an overshoot and drop in with flaps. You will now be in rolling scissors....each time you take your plane up and try to eeeekk out more energy at the top...as the scissor progresses you will be getting shots on the down side of the scissor...if the bandit makes a mistake and stalls you will find yourself shooting at his canopy and he stalls the plane while pulling too hard to go nose up for the vert turn.
I call it an angle rope because your not really doing a classic rope like in #1, you are instead using angles by pinching your turn at the top tighter and getting guns on the bandit below you. The bandit cant pull up into you becuase he must pass level to gain the energy to go back up and make his turn.
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You might find this thread helpful
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,272726.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,272726.0.html)
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The way I see it there are two basic kinds of ropes.
1. pure verticle E rope where you come in at 400+ on bandits lower than you...zoom around flat so the bandit turns on you then go vert until they hang on the prop...you cut throttle some at top and tork over nose down...take the shot.
2. Angle rope where you are not so fast but have some energy to spare. This is basically the opening move to vert rolling scissors...if you pull it off correctly on the first vert rollover you will get the shot first as the bandit passes under your plane. If you miss you will be in guns for the bandit on the next scissor...if this happens then you pull early up creating an overshoot and drop in with flaps. You will now be in rolling scissors....each time you take your plane up and try to eeeekk out more energy at the top...as the scissor progresses you will be getting shots on the down side of the scissor...if the bandit makes a mistake and stalls you will find yourself shooting at his canopy and he stalls the plane while pulling too hard to go nose up for the vert turn.
I call it an angle rope because your not really doing a classic rope like in #1, you are instead using angles by pinching your turn at the top tighter and getting guns on the bandit below you. The bandit cant pull up into you becuase he must pass level to gain the energy to go back up and make his turn.
I agree with all of this except cutting throttle at the top of the rope. If you have more E than him, you need to just simply come down at the correct time when he is stalling out, which is mutually exclusive with burning E nose up. There really is no benefit to cutting throttle while nosing up in this particular case, however if you end up chasing him downward due to a mistimed rope, cutting throttle may suddenly become a more viable option.
I'd also like to add that, when you are roping and you know you have plenty of E, it is a nice touch to initiate a vertical turn/high yo/yo(terminology) above your bandit as he tracks you with his nose up. I would also advice you to do this in the direction opposite of your bandit's torque. This is a nice strategy because you are essentially baiting the bandit into pursuing you and roping himself out while also keeping him within a quick maneuver away if he does happen to pull out of the trap you are setting.
When you get a good feel for these kinds of things, you can basically be creative and play games above him and flip your nose over for gun solution right when he is stalling out for an easy kill.
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one thing to watch out for is overshooting an enemy that is a turnfighter. if you try and pull up and you are going to slow, then you are officially dead by rights.
that and some turnfighters such as the zero (did this many times) can roll out of your attack and corkscrew onto your six very quickly to kill you. Like i said, before i became a crazy P51B pilot i flew the zero all the time. zeros, hurris, spits, all of these can pull a quick move on you if you overshoot and especially if you try to rope them after the overshoot. watch your back in these cases...
sometimes its just better to avoid the rope here and just dive out and try to gain E while they try and follow. if they follow then maybe youll actually get the chance to rope them in the near future. <S>
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I agree with all of this except cutting throttle at the top of the rope. If you have more E than him, you need to just simply come down at the correct time when he is stalling out, which is mutually exclusive with burning E nose up. There really is no benefit to cutting throttle while nosing up in this particular case, however if you end up chasing him downward due to a mistimed rope, cutting throttle may suddenly become a more viable option.
I'd also like to add that, when you are roping and you know you have plenty of E, it is a nice touch to initiate a vertical turn/high yo/yo(terminology) above your bandit as he tracks you with his nose up. I would also advice you to do this in the direction opposite of your bandit's torque. This is a nice strategy because you are essentially baiting the bandit into pursuing you and roping himself out while also keeping him within a quick maneuver away if he does happen to pull out of the trap you are setting.
When you get a good feel for these kinds of things, you can basically be creative and play games above him and flip your nose over for gun solution right when he is stalling out for an easy kill.
The cutting throttle refers to excessive energy at the top. Often in rope #1...well in a k4 anyway the plane will just pure out climb the poor bandit and you will end up 1k away before you drop...the bandit has flopped way earlier and now the seperation is so great that you must chase him down to the deck.
Yes, you will burn off energy like this but thats the point...to get a correctly timed tight reversal at the top, dropping the nose right onto the flopping bandit.
If you dont cut it like this then you are not roping only timing for a nose down slash back through the slower dropping bandits headed for the deck and getting a cross shot as the try to break out of the way.
Slower less e planes like zeeks, p40's, etc will drop out wayyyy sooner than a k4 will stop going up...so with these planes reducing seperation at the top is essential...now with planes like 190's, spits etc they can follow you up and you may not want to cut until you drop onto them...just depends on the e situation.
Its just a matter of how you want to make the kill on the rope.
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The cutting throttle refers to excessive energy at the top. Often in rope #1...well in a k4 anyway the plane will just pure out climb the poor bandit and you will end up 1k away before you drop...the bandit has flopped way earlier and now the seperation is so great that you must chase him down to the deck.
Yes, you will burn off energy like this but thats the point...to get a correctly timed tight reversal at the top, dropping the nose right onto the flopping bandit.
This is precisely why I use the technique I outlined in the "fake rope" thread.
I'll "fake" being roped (by doing little L/R roll movements, letting my nose drop while watching the guy "roping" me, and finally roll over onto my back and pull down a little) while I'm still well above stall speed (200ish) if I know I can't climb with the other guy.
Once I get my nose down again (still well above flying speed) I roll back right-side up, and pull up to allow my opponent to dive past (and spoil his shot), and then lock onto his six.
I'm counting on my opponent to do precisely what you've outlined above...
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This is precisely why I use the technique I outlined in the "fake rope" thread.
I'll "fake" being roped (by doing little L/R roll movements, letting my nose drop while watching the guy "roping" me, and finally roll over onto my back and pull down a little) while I'm still well above stall speed (200ish) if I know I can't climb with the other guy.
Once I get my nose down again (still well above flying speed) I roll back right-side up, and pull up to allow my opponent to dive past (and spoil his shot), and then lock onto his six.
I'm counting on my opponent to do precisely what you've outlined above...
I do that too! Sometimes they just don't bite, either they didn't see because I wasn't telegraphing it enough, or they weren't watching me carefully. I love when it works though, sweet kill right there.
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This is precisely why I use the technique I outlined in the "fake rope" thread.
I'll "fake" being roped (by doing little L/R roll movements, letting my nose drop while watching the guy "roping" me, and finally roll over onto my back and pull down a little) while I'm still well above stall speed (200ish) if I know I can't climb with the other guy.
Once I get my nose down again (still well above flying speed) I roll back right-side up, and pull up to allow my opponent to dive past (and spoil his shot), and then lock onto his six.
I'm counting on my opponent to do precisely what you've outlined above...
Ahhh the "fake rope" thread....that one sure got a discussion going...lolol
Yes, Mtnman that is a nice trick and I do this as well especially against spits...its a great snapshot with taters.
It is kinda of like a backwards vertical reverse...ie you create the over shoot vertically by faking a flop, get a snap shot as the bandit passes nose down and you drop in behind the 3-9 line and either catch them or set up some angles for crossing shots.
Another fancy variation is to initate a standard vertical climbing rope and pull into a vertical barrel roll then, cut throttle/reduce throttle and gently push into a neg G barrel roll the opposite direction.....bandit goes right by vertically and flops above you....falls nose low into your sights....as you hold level and follow nose down.
I understand that cutting throttle in high angle vert rope attempt is risky. I guess it boils down to the combat area threat level. A standard rope without cutting throttle will leave you with more options...ie more alt to regain lost e and a higher position after a kill. On the other hand if your not in a multi threat situation a slick rudder reversal to point blank guns is always satisfying.
I am more into stall moves and close reversals...this does tend to result in mistakes that get me killed, but I just cant resist a good ole jack hammer tater move.
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Another fancy variation is to initate a standard vertical climbing rope and pull into a vertical barrel roll then, cut throttle/reduce throttle and gently push into a neg G barrel roll the opposite direction.....bandit goes right by vertically and flops above you....falls nose low into your sights....as you hold level and follow nose down.
I can't view films currently, but I believe this film demonstrates that maneuver or something vary similar, as I may roll from inverted rather than using neg g. Though I could be wrong as I haven't been able to view it in a year. The film is older and originally to give an example of 30mm dud, so I don't know if it plays on current ah film viewer, but hopefully works as an example.
http://dasmuppets.com/public/Scotch/SPITTATER.ahf (right click, save as)
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I can't view films currently, but I believe this film demonstrates that maneuver or something vary similar, as I may roll from inverted rather than using neg g. Though I could be wrong as I haven't been able to view it in a year. The film is older and originally to give an example of 30mm dud, so I don't know if it plays on current ah film viewer, but hopefully works as an example.
http://dasmuppets.com/public/Scotch/SPITTATER.ahf (right click, save as)
Just confirming that it does indeed work.
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I would add, make sure your plane has good vertical climb...P-38...KI-84....spit... I like to go inverted as I am climbing to keep a good eye on the nme,and it allows quick reversals.
as many have said understanding yours and your nme's E-state is one of the most important aspects of roping someone, learning the hammerhead is a good idea, allows for very fast reversals at the top.
you wont get the better sticks to fall for the rope though, most often not anyways.
I think the KI-84 is one of the best planes for this tactic.
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The cutting throttle refers to excessive energy at the top. Often in rope #1...well in a k4 anyway the plane will just pure out climb the poor bandit and you will end up 1k away before you drop...the bandit has flopped way earlier and now the seperation is so great that you must chase him down to the deck.
Yes, you will burn off energy like this but thats the point...to get a correctly timed tight reversal at the top, dropping the nose right onto the flopping bandit.
If you dont cut it like this then you are not roping only timing for a nose down slash back through the slower dropping bandits headed for the deck and getting a cross shot as the try to break out of the way.
Slower less e planes like zeeks, p40's, etc will drop out wayyyy sooner than a k4 will stop going up...so with these planes reducing seperation at the top is essential...now with planes like 190's, spits etc they can follow you up and you may not want to cut until you drop onto them...just depends on the e situation.
Its just a matter of how you want to make the kill on the rope.
Oh ok I hear you. My preference is to spiral turn/circle my rope prey to bleed off the E and bait him in but your way would work well too.
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was practicing both Agent's and Grizz's tactics today in the DA against both members of the FEW and the Muppet's, everyone of them ended badly very badly for me :)
but i did manage to get the over shoots and the opponent stalls as they predicted. it was my lack of prediction targeting and tracking skillz that failed me not the format laid out by either of these 2 great sticks.
my most common mistake was to lose sight of the red guy while doing barrel roll type climbing maneuvers. once i lost sight of my opponent i no longer knew if my rope was working, so i had to lay over to reacquire viz on my target thus i would lose the advantage the rope was giving me. sometimes putting myself broadside directly in front of his guns.
although i didnt kill any of them i feel it was a productive and educational afternoon. <S> and thanks guys for letting me be your target!!!
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was practicing both Agent's and Grizz's tactics today in the DA against both members of the FEW and the Muppet's, everyone of them ended badly very badly for me :)
but i did manage to get the over shoots and the opponent stalls as they predicted. it was my lack of prediction targeting and tracking skillz that failed me not the format laid out by either of these 2 great sticks.
my most common mistake was to lose sight of the red guy while doing barrel roll type climbing maneuvers. once i lost sight of my opponent i no longer knew if my rope was working, so i had to lay over to reacquire viz on my target thus i would lose the advantage the rope was giving me. sometimes putting myself broadside directly in front of his guns.
although i didnt kill any of them i feel it was a productive and educational afternoon. <S> and thanks guys for letting me be your target!!!
you do make great.... bait...chum....miss ya bro :salute
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Oh ok I hear you. My preference is to spiral turn/circle my rope prey to bleed off the E and bait him in but your way would work well too.
Prefare the spiral myself, keeps you out of guns and con pulling lead and burning more E. More importantly it reduces the distance and time you have to drop and is more likely to result in you catching the con in a stall for an easy big profile shot and kill. The standard rope requires distance to avoid an easy static shot even at 800 a cannon bird could get a lucky spray, by the time you get over and down the con is usually well on his way down as well.