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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Lusche on October 05, 2010, 07:53:34 PM

Title: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: Lusche on October 05, 2010, 07:53:34 PM
It is not that rare. I track down and kill some buffs, only to get some nice PMs like this:

(http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/3116/base3t.jpg)
(To tell the truth, they are often much less friendly than this one ;) )

How can someone flying in Lancs at 21k think he's invisible, only because he stays out of the dar circle?

Here now the explanation for those who think you have to use spies or shade accounts to find your enemy:

(http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/5769/intercept.jpg)

I sit in the tower, looking at the map to find out where to go next. I see a small darbar in the south (1)
Now I don't know if the con is heading towards N or S, or if he's going to A32. But at the 14,X line is a favourite route for bombers going to HQ or strats, I decide to wait a few minutes.

(2) The darbar went north into 14-12. It took relatively long for the darbar to move from one sector to the other, so it's a very high probability it's buffs. (All heavy buffs take about 6 minutes to cross a sector in a straight line).  A single fighter would be very unlikely on that area anyway. So I'm quite sure it's a single set of high altitude bombers otw HQ or strats. I take off in a 163.

(3) I chose an ESE interception course, partly due to the Komet's high speed, but also because I still can't completely rule out the possibility that the unknown con is actually heading for base A31 itself.
A Me 163 takes about 2.5 minutes to get to 15k, I level out and stay just under the cloud level. After less than 3 minutes, I reach point 3. If my assumptions about the nature of the con are correct, it should be around here (as mentioned before, at 6mins per sector buffs flying in a straight line would be halfway through the sector. And bingo! I spot a high dot NE my position. Full power!

(4) Less than one minute later, the 21k Lancs are getting their unhealthy dose of taters.

No luck, no BS, no magic. Just watching the map and a very little bit of thinking. The enemy can't be "anywhere" in the sector. It's quite possible to give a very good estimation of his location just by the clues the map is giving you.
Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: B4Buster on October 05, 2010, 07:59:37 PM
great post snailman
Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: lyric1 on October 05, 2010, 08:00:04 PM
Admit it Lusche you upped your membership again didn't you.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/vivicapsychic.png)
Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: Spikes on October 05, 2010, 08:01:56 PM
Sometimes it's not even worth explaining to them...they will still be in denial no matter what.

Great post however.
Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: Ack-Ack on October 05, 2010, 08:02:27 PM
Lusche cheated...he used the map and logic to find the bandits.


ack-ack
Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: APDrone on October 05, 2010, 08:04:05 PM
Very good post, Lusche.

It's people like you that keep me from crossing sectors at the corners.. it's a dead giveaway to your position.

Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: RoGenT on October 05, 2010, 08:39:51 PM
 :noid :noid :noid to the mystery man.....
Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: CAP1 on October 06, 2010, 12:24:04 AM
i didn't even read your whole post......didn't need to. the dude's an idiot. what you said in the screenshot, is also why i don't see how expanding the radar rings hurt anything....as most of us can easily figure out just where they're at anyway..........
Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: Wiley on October 06, 2010, 09:55:34 AM
But if there's no red dot on the map, how can you know where to go?  Something's not right about this 'thinking' and 'logic' stuff...   :noid

And now that you've given away the big secret to finding cons outside of radar, we're going to have a huge spike in logic-related kills.  No good can come of this.

Wiley.
Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: ImADot on October 06, 2010, 10:08:18 AM
Awww, man...

People can actually read the map?  I guess I'll have to stay in the tower or just cancel my subscription now...
Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: Yeager on October 06, 2010, 10:18:41 AM
There is this really unfortunate culture in AH that has developed only over the past few years, where people are so damned insistent on blaming everyone else for their in game deaths.

All too often when I kill some guys hero cartoon its my fault.  Same thing when I prevent him from killing me, its my fault.  I tell you, the best way to play this game is to cut off all verbal and text comments from the opposing teams.  Its just a garbage experience anymore.
Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: waystin2 on October 06, 2010, 10:23:42 AM
I am an unrepentant map watcher myself.  It's good to see a fellow "thinker" make good.  Kudos Lusche!!!! :aok
Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: Mato on October 06, 2010, 11:05:52 AM
I knew exactly how you found me when you took two of my 17s out from under me with that 163 of yours  :salute
Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: LLogann on October 06, 2010, 11:14:16 AM
Just imagine if everybody started doing it.  Might be easier for those "i cant find a fight" guys.   :salute

Lusche cheated...he used the map and logic to find the bandits.


ack-ack
Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: MutleyBR on October 06, 2010, 11:17:42 AM
With all that knowledge Lusche has and uses in the game and SHARES with the community,
it will always be an unfair fight...  :banana:  :x

Thatīs why I always salute him when he lands his victories. I salute him not only for the victories but for all his efforts in giving us all the tools(info) for a better gaming experience.  :aok :aok

Iīll repeat here what I have in my sig: "If you're in a fair fight, you didn't plan properly."
Nick Lapos, chief R&D pilot, Sikorsky Aircraft


And Lusche, those PM's or name calling in 200 after a fight are a recognition of oneīs abilities.

They make my day.  :devil  :x

Mutley  :salute


 
Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: Latrobe on October 06, 2010, 11:23:19 AM
Isn't it amazing what you can accomplish with just a little thinking? :aok
Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: Wiley on October 06, 2010, 11:28:32 AM
Just imagine if everybody started doing it.  Might be easier for those "i cant find a fight" guys.   :salute


Well for myself, I'd say that's not quite right, because my general issue is 'I can't find the kind of fight I'm looking for as often as I'd like.' which is two opposing hordes clashing.  All too often I see a big enemy bar dar and a big friendly one with it, and by the time I get there it's petered out to a few from one side getting ganged by the other.

Hunting the singleton like Lusche talks about here can be fun though, for sure.

Wiley.
Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: Zoney on October 06, 2010, 11:39:50 AM
Occams Razor.  If you elliminate the impossible, you are left with the possible.  It takes some intelligence, a bit of work, good timing, a bit of patience and you can figure out where he is NOT.  That leaves you with "where he could possibly be.  I love this part of the game.  Be at the right place, at the right time and voile', the game's afoot.


Nice job.
Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: Jayhawk on October 06, 2010, 11:40:52 AM
Great post.

A good bomber pilot will take this into consideration as well.  Always assume someone is just tracking your dar moving across a map.  You can use it to your advantage to try and throw someone off and buy yourself some time.  Someone else mentioned this but it's very true; when you cross near a quadripoint (oh yeah, had to look that one up) of the four sectors, you might as well be a dot on radar, your location is that obvious.

(http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv23/Jayhawk1/bombermove.jpg)]

See in the above picture, the dar would move from [18,18] to [19,18] for a short period of time then to [19,17].  Anyone watching would know exactly where you are and be able to guess your heading pretty accurately. 
Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: Lusche on October 06, 2010, 12:10:27 PM
See in the above picture, the dar would move from [18,18] to [19,18] for a short period of time then to [19,17].  Anyone watching would know exactly where you are and be able to guess your heading pretty accurately.  

 :aok Exactly. You might as well broadcast your location & vector on CH200 ;)

And that's not all. The intercepting player can also look for additional information. MA activity seems to be random and chaotic, but to a large degree it is not. Players have motives, they have a reason to be at a specific point, they do have a plan, a target.

Ask yourself: Where might he had taken off? Bomber pilots prefer high altitude bases. In Jayhawks example, you would trace the rout back to see if there is such a base where he might have taken off from. From that altitude and the distance/time he already base covered, you can make a educated guess about his cruising altitude (keeping in mind there are some "customary" flight levels players tend to follow). Watch the map where he might be going: Is there any big battle in the direction of his general heading? Is he going to the strats? Or will he try for that CV of yours (very unlikely if he took off more than 2 sectors to the rear). Or is he simply flying for score and will drop half a dozen town centers for points?

Also quite a number of buff players do dodge the dar circles, but ignore the fact the base town's have a alarm range all of their own. You might not show on the base radar, but you make the town flash. Combined with darbar you are giving your enemy a very good hit on your exact location.


Of course you don't have to play that way. It's probably pretty boring for most folks. But then, don't be surprised when somebody shows up to kill your bombers, or (on the other side of the coin), don't exclaim "where did all the bombers suddenly came from?" when you find your furballin base obliterated by a 20k bomber raid ;)


Anecdote: Once I was accused for using a spy account when I "magically found" a 10+ formations bomber raid about 30 minutes after takeoff at 20k. I almost fell of my chair.  :confused:
Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: oneway on October 06, 2010, 12:27:53 PM
Flying diagonal tracks near quadrant intersections is suicidal when enemy know how to read and watch a map...

Flying diagonal tracks from grid side midpoint to side midpoint is how anyone who cares about living does it...and the interesting thing is that when you fly a diagonal from mid side to mid side that is basically 1/Cos(45) x 12.5 or 17+ miles to cross each grid...so it is as good as it gets short of running a stepped leg flip flopping 60 degree offset courses..

Further any Lanc at 21K behind enemy lines is asking to have his headed handed to him...

The best bomber blood hounds are bomber pilots themsleves who know how to use the grid, sector warning range, bomber warning range (base, town, strat)  to their own advantage in avoiding enemy fighters...

Good post Snail

Edit:

There is one more thing...Sector Warning Range, aka Dar Bar is not a Grid based animal...it is a radius range element predicated upon the Sector Warning Range settings in the Arena Setup...I am not sure what the main arena sector range is, but default is 12.5 miles or a 25 mile circle consistent with dot dar...

Also the game seems to be set up to wash out a sector counter if he is actually not in the sector...in other words if the sector counter range is breached by an element, and the the element is not in the grid containing the station, it won't register as marker in that sector, but rather is displaced to the elements actual sector....even if no other radar stations are in that elements sector...
Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: grizz441 on October 06, 2010, 12:29:43 PM
I salute my fellow thinkers out there. 
Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: druski85 on October 06, 2010, 12:32:12 PM
I learned something important from this post. 

Lusche is not only the master of pie charts and bar graphs, (well known) but also quite adept at map manipulation and presentation.    Perhaps the Fugitive should update his cartoon accordingly...  :)
Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: Roadblck on October 06, 2010, 12:35:30 PM
Great post and info, snailman.  

More anecdotal evidence of his treachery (or cleverness):

Snail is still responsible for the only time I've been startled enough to nearly jump out of my chair, thinking "holy crap! WTH just happened!" (He had crept up on my low 6 in his 262).  There was a loud bang, then the tower!  He was kind enough to explain what he'd done, and I think we both had a good laugh about it.    :salute
Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: HawkerMKII on October 06, 2010, 12:37:00 PM
Just yesterday, saw dar bar upping from field, upped K-4 and stayed in sector till dar moved into it. Found lancs at 17k shot him down. He pm'ed me "How did you get to 17k so fast?" Told him I was waiting for him and that he took a direct line form point A to point B. You have to think like a fighter jock to fly buffs sometimes.  :salute Lusche
Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: oneway on October 06, 2010, 12:45:53 PM
Just yesterday, saw dar bar upping from field, upped K-4 and stayed in sector till dar moved into it. Found lancs at 17k shot him down. He pm'ed me "How did you get to 17k so fast?" Told him I was waiting for him and that he took a direct line form point A to point B. You have to think like a fighter jock to fly buffs sometimes.  :salute Lusche

I think it goes both ways....the best interceptors are also highly skilled bomber pilots...
Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: Shuffler on October 06, 2010, 01:34:46 PM
I usually don't see those type negative posts. He was up a long time and probably mad because someone took the time and inclination to find him.

Pretty common sense operation it seems.

Well done!
Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: oneway on October 06, 2010, 01:59:23 PM
Check this out....you can actually manipulate the mind of the interceptors...with proper planning...

Leverage the grid and bend their minds...

 :salute

Out

Oneway

(http://cadframers.com/ah/sector_range_manipulation.png)
Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: dev41 on October 06, 2010, 03:38:05 PM
Wow - I am like a total noob and I had this figured out two months after joining the game. Now I can usually find the bombers by reading the map - my problem is finishing the job. I usually get one in my K-4/G-14/190D and then get oiled pretty good, then I lose my enginge and then if I am lucky I am able to coast back to base. Finding them, however, is not the problem.

Ubben
Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: LLogann on October 06, 2010, 03:57:36 PM
Newb, not Noob..... Although I'm only speculating you're not a Noob also.   :D

Wow - I am like a total noob and I had this figured out two months after joining the game. Now I can usually find the bombers by reading the map - my problem is finishing the job. I usually get one in my K-4/G-14/190D and then get oiled pretty good, then I lose my enginge and then if I am lucky I am able to coast back to base. Finding them, however, is not the problem.

Ubben
Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: MonkGF on October 06, 2010, 04:05:18 PM
All too often when I kill some guys hero cartoon its my fault.  Same thing when I prevent him from killing me, its my fault.

Dude, both of those ARE your fault. Just in a good way  :D
Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: oTRALFZo on October 06, 2010, 04:18:12 PM
Great post Lusche  :aok
Somewhat similar tactics can be used to bust up NOE horde missions too. After a while you can see people repeat the same patterns over and over so its becoming easier to find out where the next attack is going to be.
Nothing gives me more joy than seeing 1 or 2 guys thwart the hopes and dreams of 30 guys trying to overwhelm a target  :devil
Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: Ardy123 on October 06, 2010, 05:46:55 PM
It is not that rare. I track down and kill some buffs, only to get some nice PMs like this:

(http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/3116/base3t.jpg)
(To tell the truth, they are often much less friendly than this one ;) )

How can someone flying in Lancs at 21k think he's invisible, only because he stays out of the dar circle?

Here now the explanation for those who think you have to use spies or shade accounts to find your enemy:
blah blah blah

I knew it, snailman is a cheater ;)
Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: DaCoon on October 06, 2010, 05:52:22 PM
Great post Lusche  :aok
Somewhat similar tactics can be used to bust up NOE horde missions too. After a while you can see people repeat the same patterns over and over so its becoming easier to find out where the next attack is going to be.
Nothing gives me more joy than seeing 1 or 2 guys thwart the hopes and dreams of 30 guys trying to overwhelm a target  :devil

Yep, when the NOE horde starts taking bases just look at the roster see who's logged in and one can pretty easily figure where they are going next. Those NOE base take horde guys usually have their own pattern, with a few exceptions.   :x
Title: Re: BS? Just lot lot of luck? No, Sir... it's called thinking!
Post by: Bino on October 06, 2010, 06:58:04 PM
Gadzooks! That dastardly gastropod is at it again!  ;)