Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: a4944 on October 08, 2010, 09:30:15 AM
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Any tips on flying the P38 against the 109? Any techniques to get the most out of a P38? Assume the P38 does not have enough E advantage to zoom. What can you do if you see a 109 closing from your 6 to try and reverse the advanatage?
Thanks,
Chog
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Any tips on flying the P38 against the 109? Any techniques to get the most out of a P38? Assume the P38 does not have enough E advantage to zoom. What can you do if you see a 109 closing from your 6 to try and reverse the advanatage?
Thanks,
Chog
GENerally, if they're coming from alt, i try to force an overshoot. i normally have troubel when i get bounced though.
from a co-alt merge, you can establish an alt advantage sometimes, as long as you have the speed. it's not good to get low and slow against them. especially the "F". they'll tear ya up. i'll try to think of more when i sit down for lunch/.
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MMMMM looking forward to cap revealing his secrets........ :devil
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Chog, dunno if you're aware of it or not...just stumbled back onto it myself after a couple of years...
http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/models.htm (http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/models.htm)
Lots of useful information.
:salute
J
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bah.. never mind
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pee38......
you MUST use the vertical. this doesn't mean to bnz the guy to death. it only means that you cannot follow about 90% of the things you'll fight through a flat turn. keep some speed.
if you're bouncing a con, and he turns hard, level above him, bleeding some speed, and see what he does. once he';s straightened out, you can go after him again.
you can also throttle back, go below, and although you'll be too fast, again, keel an eye....you can still get back up above him.
the key is to have more "E" stored than he does.
if you're closing on him co-alt, and he turns hard(they all do), then do a high yoyo....pull up, as you loose speed, you'll turn with him. although you may be a bit too slow now, you're still in good position, as once he changes his direction, you simply push the nose over again.
in the "J", try to take the fight uphill if you can. keep him turning against his engines torque if you can. i believe the 109's torque to the right?
in the main arenas, i love roping guys. it's fun, as they ALL think they have the "E" to lift their nose a liiiiitle more to get the shot.....and they stall, just before my "J" does. timed well, when my nose drops, they're right in my sights.
that doesn't work so well in here, as you lose them without the icons.
although i've been told i'm too fast, i get my best results merging at 330mph or so. i don't know the cornering speed of a 38, but when i watch my films, i seem to average in the 220mph to 270mph range in my successful turnfights.
flaps.....they are SUPER DUPER important. you can get 10 degrees out at 250mph. be careful with them though. they will slow you down quickly, and get you into trouble. you need to kind of get the feel for them in the fights. i'm almost constantly working flaps, and throttle throughout a fight. i often find myself coming downhill with 10 or 20 degrees of flaps out. i kind of hate the auto retracting feature because of this, as i've bellyflopped when they retracted.
throttle management is very important too. in spits zeeks and hurris, i've found i can firewall it, and do pretty much anything. in the 38, you can't do that. those allisons will keep you going too fast for turns.
bear in mind, that i think i still suck in the 38, and learn somethign new every time i fly her.......but i hope this helps.
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Chog,
The P-38s have been eating my lunch in the vertical. I've been flying the 109 exclusively lately trying to learn the bird. I've always heard how good they are in the vertical, I see P-38s matching anything I can do vertically constantly. Of course I'm a relitive newbie to the 109, I've ignored it for years in favor of the 190. I might not be the best one to offer advice but I do know I'm losing to 38s in the vert constantly.
<S>
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Chog,
The P-38s have been eating my lunch in the vertical. I've been flying the 109 exclusively lately trying to learn the bird. I've always heard how good they are in the vertical, I see P-38s matching anything I can do vertically constantly. Of course I'm a relitive newbie to the 109, I've ignored it for years in favor of the 190. I might not be the best one to offer advice but I do know I'm losing to 38s in the vert constantly.
<S>
you gotta get us slow, and low. that's where most of us have trouble. granted, i've seen guys fly the 38 like a spit......but i think that's not most of us.
i love fighting low.....and i have a couple screenies go go up tonight.....but once you get us slow, it's much much harder for us........
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well last night the vert worked against my 109 very well..i was miss judging E states all night, couldn't get a thing going, but usually i love when a 38 goes straight up, on most occasions it puts them right in my sites. I guess that's the trick, know you have the E over the 109 and it works beautiful :O
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38's are great when people first start flying them.. nice big fat targets for me... when they get a handle on them? The tables turn rapidly. I think that's next on my bucket list... or the 190. Cap I'll be hitting you up for some help when I get in one.
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well last night the vert worked against my 109 very well..i was miss judging E states all night, couldn't get a thing going, but usually i love when a 38 goes straight up, on most occasions it puts them right in my sites. I guess that's the trick, know you have the E over the 109 and it works beautiful :O
yea, i learned that the hard way agianst you the other night....i don't go straight up now..... :devil
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38's are great when people first start flying them.. nice big fat targets for me... when they get a handle on them? The tables turn rapidly. I think that's next on my bucket list... or the 190. Cap I'll be hitting you up for some help when I get in one.
no problem. i try to help when i can.........none of us got to where we are without help...... :aok
i flew the pee47 d11 last nigfht for a couple of flights. she seems to turn fairly nicely, but no vertical whatsoever...at least not what i'm used to.
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I call it the P47 the flying brick... we get them about once or twice a year in FSO... I look at it and think 'nice coffin'. Lack of a skill set yep...
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When you guys say vertical do you mean like a snowboarders pipe where you go up to the rim and then reverse or do you do full loops?
I like the FW190A5. If you have E, you can do the snowboarder type vertical engagement. It's beautiful to flip it at the top with an E advantage and have a P40 or 38 dangling right below you. I suppose I can try to fight the P38 the same way. The most trouble I have fighting the 38s when flying Axis is misjudging the E state and not being able to keep with the zoom.
In here, sticking with a fight, the longer the fight goes the worse it gets for me, when I'm pretty much flying anything USAAF. USAAF planes seem to excel with teamwork but can be tough with single 1 vs 1 engagements against the 109s after the the initial move after the merge. Any tricks for reversing a bad situation? Do you stick with the vertical when a 109 is getting an advantage or do transition to a rolling scissors and try to force an overshoot?
Chog
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i always seem to lose when i get into a rolling scissors. i try to use yoyos to make me able to turn with the bad guy.
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ill escort you home! :D
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ill escort you home! :D
speaking of which......i was watching that film of when you almost snuk up behind my pee47......i never noticed the collision message till then. on my end, you were at least 50 yards away.....i was wondering how your wing got broken. :devil
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weinie! :aok
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as soon as i see any allie plane, specially the 38 try the scissors i just chop the throttle and hit flaps and wait for them to dangle........
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when fighting any allie plane with the 109 and they start a scissor i cut the throttle and flap it out.... i can usually stay behind them and as they try and turn inside me run outa E and they are done....
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when fighting any allie plane with the 109 and they start a scissor i cut the throttle and flap it out.... i can usually stay behind them and as they try and turn inside me run outa E and they are done....
this is why i try to avoid both the rolling and flat scissors.
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im also getting better at judging the 38's E Ive actually been able to follow them up and flap out enough in the G2 to hang with them if i can keep my E up enough. I have to make a shallower path up to maintain it but the torque can pull ya threw and up under them.
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When you guys say vertical do you mean like a snowboarders pipe where you go up to the rim and then reverse or do you do full loops?
I like the FW190A5. If you have E, you can do the snowboarder type vertical engagement. It's beautiful to flip it at the top with an E advantage and have a P40 or 38 dangling right below you. I suppose I can try to fight the P38 the same way. The most trouble I have fighting the 38s when flying Axis is misjudging the E state and not being able to keep with the zoom.
In here, sticking with a fight, the longer the fight goes the worse it gets for me, when I'm pretty much flying anything USAAF. USAAF planes seem to excel with teamwork but can be tough with single 1 vs 1 engagements against the 109s after the the initial move after the merge. Any tricks for reversing a bad situation? Do you stick with the vertical when a 109 is getting an advantage or do transition to a rolling scissors and try to force an overshoot?
Chog
Vertical is basically any maneuver that is generally 90 degrees to the ground, rolling scissors, flat scissors, etc. and can be going up or down. Forcing an overshoot is an art form that requires managing your energy state and estimating that of your opponent. When you start make angles on you opponent, first check six, then get it on, saddle up, and smoke 'em. If your opponent is starting to make angles on you, there are two choices; egress or use BFM to neutralize his angles. If that still doesn't work, it's time to :bolt: :salute
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im also getting better at judging the 38's E Ive actually been able to follow them up and flap out enough in the G2 to hang with them if i can keep my E up enough. I have to make a shallower path up to maintain it but the torque can pull ya threw and up under them.
well, ya kicked my bellybutton a few times the other night.
one thing i noticed i did wrong though, is that i kept merging with too low of a speed.
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when fighting any allie plane with the 109 and they start a scissor i cut the throttle and flap it out.... i can usually stay behind them and as they try and turn inside me run outa E and they are done....
I've been trying a flat scissors in a P47 followed by a rolling scissors when they are out of phase (not sure I can really tell yet) with the hope that they are expecting the flat scissors to continue and get surprised by the slow flaps out roll and overshoot. It's worked a couple of times but I'm not the best of shots and often miss my one snap shot. Been taking quite a few hits doing this also while doing the flat scissors.
In a 109 I do what you do or go vertical if I get surprised and stay above them. The rolling scissors really only works when someone is expecting an easy kill and tries to stick with it too long and overshoots.
I've always meant to pay more attention the engine torque thing. I'll have to experiment with that. I also need to work more on working flaps in and out to help keep E better than the opponent.
The 109s seem to be overall better planes 1 vs 1 but the higher numbers we have had help balanace it out. There is always the stay alive as long as possible and hope a friendly will shoot him off your tail defense in a multi-con fight.
Chog
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ha, i got lucky. Ive learned to keep mine up much higher then I normally would at the merge. The G2 can hold E well but its also fairly easy to bleed it off quickly if needed. I dont ever know what im fighting against till we pass each other the first time so I have to be ready for any option.
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I've been trying a flat scissors in a P47 followed by a rolling scissors when they are out of phase (not sure I can really tell yet) with the hope that they are expecting the flat scissors to continue and get surprised by the slow flaps out roll and overshoot. It's worked a couple of times but I'm not the best of shots and often miss my one snap shot. Been taking quite a few hits doing this also while doing the flat scissors.
In a 109 I do what you do or go vertical if I get surprised and stay above them. The rolling scissors really only works when someone is expecting an easy kill and tries to stick with it too long and overshoots.
I've always meant to pay more attention the engine torque thing. I'll have to experiment with that. I also need to work more on working flaps in and out to help keep E better than the opponent.
The 109s seem to be overall better planes 1 vs 1 but the higher numbers we have had help balanace it out. There is always the stay alive as long as possible and hope a friendly will shoot him off your tail defense in a multi-con fight.
Chog
bolded.
i patented that defense. you have to pay me a royalty every time you use it. :devil :noid :neener:
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well, ya kicked my bellybutton a few times the other night.
one thing i noticed i did wrong though, is that i kept merging with too low of a speed.
"SPEED is life". It's always much easier to get rid of too much than try to gain it.
...and for some comic relief.
The three most useless things in aviation:
1. Gas in the truck
2. Runway behind you
3. Altitude above you :lol
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One word. Hammerhead. :devil
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One word. Hammerhead. :devil
i've used this a couple of times with success. i've used it often without success. my lack of success, was due to timimg. timing is critical on this maneuver........
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"SPEED is life". It's always much easier to get rid of too much than try to gain it.
...and for some comic relief.
The three most useless things in aviation:
1. Second best Air Force
2. Gas in the truck
3. Runway behind you
4. Altitude above you :lol
Made a slight adjustment. :D
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and what is it they say?
second is the first loser? :noid :D
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They also say the biggest waste of money in the world is the second best Air Force.
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There are a couple of keys when fighting 109's in general.
1. The big cannons in the 109 tempt the 109 drivers into taking snapshots when he should be max performing his aircraft. This is a big opportunity for the P-38 pilot to grab angles away from a 109. If you see your opponent taking shots in a knife fight just max perform the P-38 and the 109 will lose angles quickly to you. Of course, you have to know how to max perform the 38 first. If you find a 109 that isn't firing every time you are anywhere in his front window then you might be up against someone with a clue.
2. The 109's have lots of canopy frame so it is hard to track you visually. Don't make his tracking job any easier. Avoid any steady state single plane maneuvering. Single plane in this instance is in the geometry sense. Don't drive in circles vertically, horizontally or obliquely. You want your fight to swirl. Make his tracking problem difficult and every time he loses sight you will be able to grab angles from him. This is a big part of the reason you see 109's hugging the deck in the AvA. It minimizes the visual scan area to one half of what it is up high. Stay high and take this away from the 109 jock. Don't fight his fight on the deck. The P-38 is large and the only way to even out or turn the visual tracking problems to your advantage is to fight with altitude above and below.
Specific p-38 versus 109 depend on particular models involved, of course.
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thank ya sir......i always like reading your replies.........keep the tips comin. please.
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One of the big differences between the 109 and the 38 is torque. The 109 has lots of torque. The 38 has no torque. As the 38 driver you can take advantage of that difference. Torque is most prevalent at low speeds, high angles of attack, and high power settings. So if you are both in a maneuver that fits that description, such as a Flat Scissors, you know he will have a very hard time rolling right, if he can at all. Meanwhile you are still free to roll to the right to your heart's desire.
So keep an eye open for a chance to bring the fight slow and then give him two options; turn right or dive away. If he tries to turn right, you can probably gain some massive angular advantages or maybe a game ending shot. If he recognizes the danger and dives away, you will have the high ground and can work him down with BnZ attacks.
Of course there are differences depending on what models you're talking about. 38G vs 109F4 is going to be a lot different than 38L vs 109K4.
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Of course there are differences depending on what models you're talking about. 38G vs 109F4 is going to be a lot different than 38L vs 109K4.
The 109 G6 vs 38 is a pretty even match up the K4 all things being equal pilot etc has to much power. The 38 vs G6 match ups in MW I always felt were very even matched and the best fights, in LW from a co E start it just has to much horsepower.
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The middle 109's vs the J/L 38's are a good match up. I have to give the 38's a slight advantage in the verticle with the 109's with a turn advantage. The 38 in order to take advantage of the verticle advantage has to accurately judge the 109's E state since it's not a slouch in the verticle itself, and underestimating it while trying a rope equals easy target for the 109. As a basic rule the 38 must gain the alt advantage and maintain it. A good 109 stick realizing this will try to maintain his alt as much as possible and try to get the 38 into a slower turning fight, when the 38 pilot realizes he can't get above the 109 and is forced to turn or try to disengage. Keep in mind the 109's accelerate very well, so when getting an alt advantage against them with a 38 you have to be fairly aggressive or the 109 will equalize E states fairly quickly.
As always, I'm normally available in the TA around 9 central time during the week if anybody wants to work on something.
:salute
BigRat
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BR, your help it the TA a few weeks ago on the 109 has really helped a lot.
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BR, your help it the TA a few weeks ago on the 109 has really helped a lot.
aahhhAAAA!!!
that's how you kicked my bellybutton so handily!! :aok
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whatever makes you sleep better at night........ :salute
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whatever makes you sleep better at night........ :salute
:D i was joking with ya sir. i know it's really my crappy flying. :D :rofl :aok :neener:
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I don't fly the 38 but when I'm fighting them in a 109, I know once I get em low and/or into a stall fight with me they're usually easy to mop up, so I would say don't get down and dirty playin the 109's game or they'll get you every time :D
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:D i was joking with ya sir. i know it's really my crappy flying. :D :rofl :aok :neener:
i know!!!!! lol Im sure i just a good run of luck and you will return the favor soon enough..... :cheers: :neener:
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BR, your help it the TA a few weeks ago on the 109 has really helped a lot.
Glad to hear that it helped :aok
:salute
BigRat