Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Dadsguns on October 09, 2010, 07:00:42 PM
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I have a 5.1 Sony Tower surround sound system which has its own amp/rcvr built in that works great however is very limited on the way it receives its input, (6-RCA) which most newer equipment no longer use RCA for 5.1 outputs.
I can not input my PS3, or wii, or TV signal, only my DVD player which is not Blue Ray has a RCA 5.1 Out on it. I now use primarily my ps3 for blueray and this leaves me with a 5.1 system that is no longer compatible.
I have been spending alot of time researching into different Surround Sound Systems and have practically lost my freakin mind dealing with how criminal they can be in the packaging of some of these systems and what the asking price of some them can reach. IE Cheap rcvr/cheap speakers=costly,,,, Cheap rcvr/expensive speakers=more expensive,,,, expensive rcvr/cheap speakers=just BS
Your only option is to build your own to get a good rcvr and speaker combo you can be happy with since they don't want you to be too happy..... I purchased the HT-S6300 $627.00 on sale that did not have THX Certification, I was dissapointed about that as well as not having good quality speakers with the out of the box setup..... I took it back today and started all over again.
I am leaning towards the ONKYO THX systems with rcvrs around 400-800 bucks, one of the HT-S9100THX (last years model) and the HT-S9300THX Home Theater Systems interest me the most but are pricey. Availability seems to be an issue with some of these.
BOSE, well, Over priced but sound very good, really would hate to go that route since they can be very costley...3K for high end model.
I heard several reccommend going with ONKYO rcvr and buying BOSE speakers which work great together and using a KLIPSHE for subs as the best overall build it your own systems and half the price of a high end BOSE.
Anyone got any of this dialed in and found something that worked out well without breaking the bank? Or if you have any tips that can be helpful would be appreciated.
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I could probably come up with a couple ideas, how big is the room and what sort of budget were you looking at?
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20x13 ... set up on the the short wall. Want to stay around 1K not over 2K.
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First thought would be to look at doing some bookshelf style speakers, you'd have to get stands or have something to put them on, but I think Polk Audio makes some good bang for the buck speakers and has things at a lot of price points.
The TS100's may be a good place to start for the fronts and surround channels.
http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/tsi/index.php?s=tsi100 (http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/tsi/index.php?s=tsi100)
Center could be the CS10
http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/tsi/index.php?s=cs10 (http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/tsi/index.php?s=cs10)
For subs you could either do the Polk PSW10 or Velodyne Impact10, both should be decent budget subwoofers (MSRP between $250 and $300).
http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/psw/index.php?s=psw110 (http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/psw/index.php?s=psw110)
http://www.velodyne.com/vproducts/detailpdf/Impact-10_Details.pdf (http://www.velodyne.com/vproducts/detailpdf/Impact-10_Details.pdf)
I've messed with both Onkyo and Marantz receivers and both are good, I tend to find the Marantz to sound a little better IMHO, but the Onkyo's tend to be a little more feature packed. A HDMI, Optical or Digital Coax cable should be able to carry the 5 channel audio signal into the AVR and it can handle the signal processing. I'm not sure what cables you have available or connections so I would double check all the inputs and options before settling on anything.
http://us.marantz.com/Products/172.asp (http://us.marantz.com/Products/172.asp)
http://www.onkyousa.com/prod_class.cfm?class=Receiver (http://www.onkyousa.com/prod_class.cfm?class=Receiver)
If you do decide to go with Onkyo you may want to leave a little extra room for ventilation, I haven't used these current models but the AVR's from a year or two ago tended to run a little hot, either or I would leave several inches above the receiver for ventilation.
These aren't the only options by any means just manufacturers that I've dealt with before. Look around, shop around and better yet find a retailer that has something set up that you can listen to.
Finally there is one other option, take the current budget and put it into a surround/5.1 receiver and TWO speakers now. Then add speakers to it as the spending money becomes available. A good two channel system can really surprise you.
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If you want reasonable sound and all of the features you want from a complete pre-packaged all in one surround setup, you may end up spending a lot of money to get what you want. I think that you will find that people who really care about the sound quality AND want more features will end up buying a dedicated surround receiver/amplifier, and then buying components as required. A full system for someone who cares (but isn't some whacko who spends $10,000 on a single power cable) might include these items:
Receiver - contains a gazillion inputs, has all the hardware decoders (DTS, dolby digital, optical/coax, etc), and has outputs to either all the speakers (if the receiver has a high quality amp) or has only a pre-amp built in to reduce noise/crosstalk and has outputs to a dedicated amplifier instead.
Dedicated multi-channel amp - Expensive ones will have a whole separate daughterboard for each channel, with shielding and separate power between each channel. If you don't care to spend the $$$ for dedicated amps like this, you might as well get a receiver with a reasonably high power amp built in. JVC and Sony have some nice 300W+ output receivers for under $400, much less if you get the year-end closeout sale discontinued model. I have a nice sony receiver that was one of the last mid-range models to hit the streets before digital video cables became standard, so I got it for about 50% off when they went to the new models built to support HDTV. It still has the full audio features including DTS and dolby digital decoding, but it won't switch hdtv video sources and doesn't do the latest 7.1 ultra high def audio decoding from BD players. Don't care though, my TV has plenty of inputs and my living room isn't big enough for more than 5.1 speakers anyhow.
Optical player - Blue-Ray is what you need. The important things are to get a reasonably good quality unit (the cheapo ones on sale at wal-mart tend to overheat and freeze up in the middle of the movie) and to make sure the outputs match the inputs on your TV and receiver/decoder/amp. If your receiver will accept and decode the best quality sound, then the player just needs an optical or co-ax digital out to hook up to your receiver. If it doesn't though, then you need a BD player that does the full audio decoding and has 7.1 speaker outputs that will plug into your receiver or dedicated amp.
Speakers - You get what you pay for, generally. BOSE sounds ok some of the time, but a challenging soundtrack will highlight the limitations of the hardware and the BOSE systems tend to be expensive. Again, if you care about the sound quality you will need to read some reviews on quality units and buy matched speakers from the same manufacturer that are designed to work together. If you buy mis-matched speakers, you may have to do a lot of fiddling with the output levels for each speaker otherwise some will probably end being too loud or too quiet compared to the other speakers. Bigger isn't necessarily better, but a skinny tower full of tiny speakers will get you tiny speaker sound, no matter what the marketing pamphlet says.
Powered subwoofer - No doubt about it, you get what you pay for here. Do NOT get the $89 on sale Sony 10" from best buy or wherever is trying to dump them. Those pieces of crud will hum all the time due to really cheap circuitry. Yea they sound ok in a loud showroom with the volume turned way up, but trust me, they are terrible to live with. Go with a quality subwoofer with variable cutoff frequency and gain, but don't go too crazy. Subs under $250ish are in my experience generally horrible, but you have to spend well over $500 to get to the next true jump in quality (again, in my experience).
If you want to save some money on speakers, consider buying speaker kits. They contain all the parts to build your own speakers and you can often buy complete surround sets, then build and finish them to your own standards.
The other option is to get an HTPC and plug it into a "stupid" set of amplified surround speakers that don't do fancy decoding and have only one input. Make the PC do the decoding work and just push out audio and video to whatever speakers and TV you have.
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I forgot to mention my own setup...
HTPC for BD, DVD
5.1 dolby digital sent from HTPC to my oldish sony receiver which loves DTS and dolby digital. Dolby digital from DVD and BD is sent directly to the receiver by the HTPC. The sony receiver has 5.1 output and somewhere around 350w total output, which is plenty of power.
Speakers - main left and right are three-way speakers, 8" main, 3.5"ish mids, plus tweeter. Center is a dedicated sony speaker with 2 4" speakers and a tweeter, and I have to turn down the gain on the receiver otherwise this one is too loud. Rear left and right are sony bookshelf speakers. I had one of those crummy sony amplified subs and it was great as long as the movie didn't get too quiet, because the sub hummed when not in use. It finally died and I did a lot of shopping before selecting, then not buying, a $300ish powered sub (can't remember brand).
It works ok, but it took a lot of fiddling to get the sound levels right between all of the speakers and I still occasionally find a movie where the center or rear speakers seem too loud. But for 99% of the movies I watch it sounds ok. With a good sub it would be superb, much better than any cheapo "surround in a box" package deal. And I got all the parts on sale so I paid maybe $600 total for the receiver and speakers (minus the crummy sub which I never replaced).
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For receivers I say look for ones with automatic calibration, I think most THX have that feature too.
As for speakers check these out.
I've been following this AVS thread with interest.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=19275983
Interesting clip featuring Andrew Jones's budget line
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lCNvTAt-fY
The techniques & technology he used for the $70,000 speaker he designed few years ago will finally trickle down to the masses :banana: :x
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A couple of points to start:
1. HTIB system's are by and large, a waste of money as the speakers suffer.
2. THX rated components are a waste of money.
3. Onkyo has two issues currently - 1. Worsening Product quality and 2. their receivers run hotter than other brands. Take this into consideration for where it will be going.
Now,
You pretty need about $1500 tops for a great sounding HT.
Speakers:
Definitive Technology is where I'd start first. Mainly the ProCinema 800 at around $1200. There is a store near you that you could audition it. Take some music/movies and have them show you it's capabilities.
BIG SCREEN STORE - VA BEACH
1701 LASKIN RD
VIRGINIA BEACH, VA 23454
That store also has the Denon AVR-791 for about $499 list. It is loaded with features and not commanding the extra $300 or so for THX certification. But if you liked both (should be a good match) you'll have $100-$200 knocked off the combined total. Just listen to both and make your decision, but it should impress you for what you are getting.
DVD players are a dime a dozen and it depends on if you want Blu-Ray. Panasonic and Samsung's are just fine.
Do not waste your time and money with Bose. They are an inferior product and one of the most overpriced brands out there.
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I appreciate the input and insights and respect the opinions, most of all its your experiences during your research.
The forums links are very helpful in sorting some things out but of course are not the final solution, a good tool.
I am convinced at this point that a HTIB is not what I am looking for, doing my homework and finding the best price on some of the high end pieces is the trick. I actually have noticed that even within the last couple of weeks prices of units have fallen dramatically for some vendors, I suppose this is due to clearing the shelves for new units coming in.
Your right about the Bose, they are as bad as a forked tongue car salesman, enough said.
I planned to go to the Big Screen Store today or this week, I will check out those units.
Thanks for sharing your ideas and thoughts, I respect your purchases of what made you happy, I know for some of you those trial and error type purchases could have cost you alot of money in the past to get where you are today and just for that experience its priceless.
For me, I cant afford the trial and error and want the best bang for the buck the first time around and the only way to get it is going through this process of picking your brains. :aok
Edit:
Definitive Technology ProCinema 800 speaker set in combination with a Denon/Onkyo rcvr will be right in my target price range. Going this afternoon to get a test run and see how it sounds.
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For a couple hundred more you could ask them to go to the 10" sub. Which with your room size would make it even more enjoyable. There is ALWAYS wiggle room at a dealer.
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Hi DG!
When it comes to the AV receiver, as you found out there are many good quality brands to choose from. I would look at warranty length. The longer the better, the manufacturer has more confidence in the product and by extension so should you. If its a quality receiver with a good warranty I wouldn't get hung up on output power other than with respect to my speaker match up. You don't want power hungry speakers on a smallish amp and visa versa, you don't want big power on small high efficiency speakers. I would definitely look at the manual before I purchase. Most good companies make them available as PDF on line. Check the programing , they almost all have universal remotes and you're going to want to see how easy, or frickin stupid!, it is to set up/program. Some brands (Denon used to be the worst) are very unintuitive. The AVR is the heart of your system and needs the most thought.
Speakers.....First, they can make the most dramatic difference in your sound, period. One model (even within brands) can sound vastly different than the next. They can sound vastly different in your home than in the store!
Like another poster said you can buy some at a time, but I would buy the front THREE to together. You want those to be matched. If you only buy the front L & R now, you may come back in a couple months and find that the center is no longer available and have to fumble with making something else work. The surrounds, rear and or side fill, can be different models and or brand from the fronts, they just need to be matched themselves. The same goes for the subwoofer.
Speaking of subwoofers, for the most part, the more power the better. Again check warranty period. all speakers should have at least a five year warranty.
Like K said, take some media with you and demo. Ask the pointed questions. Do you sell allot of these? Do you have many of them come back? Can I bring them back if I don't like them/it? ( and get my money back? Get something else? )
Some tongue in cheek rules of thumb ....."The heavier the amplifier, the better it is" "Don't buy whistles, bells and lights... unless you really like that sort of thing" " Ask for everything and retreat from there." "No good deed goes unpunished." Oops, that's for the guy on the other side of the counter. :)
<S> sir
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I sell audio equipment where I work, including Defininitive Tech, Yamaha receivers etc.
I bought a LG htib. 5.1
Love it, plenty of power, great sound, built in blue ray and networking.(netflix, pandora, you tube etc.)
The built in blue ray is one of the best in the business.
$600.00, worth every cent.
If I was going to be setting up a dedicated projector style theatre room, I would have gone with a more elaborate set up.
But for everyday viewing with the wife and kids in my living room, its a fabulous system for the money.
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The only way to get reasonably priced quality audio is DIY speakers combined with midlevel amps and peripherals. Speakers are the only think that will break your budget if you really want good sound.
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The only way to get reasonably priced quality audio is DIY speakers combined with midlevel amps and peripherals. Speakers are the only think that will break your budget if you really want good sound.
Not really true in my experience, the preamp/amplifier can have a very dramatic impact on the level of performance you can achieve and the overall sound character. You can get some pretty decent sounding speakers for $300-$400 a pair, granted you can spend a lot more and get much better sound, but a decent pair of bookshelf speakers doesn't have to break the banks.
Also keep in mind that room placement and setup can have just much impact on the quality of sound as the components in the system themselves.
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Alright, I have went full circle and have come to the conclusion that I am not Bill Gates and my wallet is just not as thick as I need to be able to buy exactly what I want, but I have come close for what I need with this:
http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=HT-S9100THX&class=Systems&p=i
Last years model for almost half the price, $679.00 shipping included still cheaper than most other stores. Should be here Wednesday.
I have learned alot from this experience for sure, the one thing that I can take away from it is that you may not get exactly what you want and may never know "what it could be like" but anything at this point is an upgrade for me and most of all I feel happy about my purchase, my pants never made it to my ankles...... :D
:salute
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I bought an Onkyo HTS-5300 this past spring for my kids to have downstairs in our new house. It has worked great and provides some great sounds for the price that I spent. It worked out of the box and honestly is used everyday with a DVD/BD, game system, television, ipod/iphone...it just works for what it is and that is a good HTIB to get things done.