Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: leonid on May 17, 2000, 09:02:00 PM
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Excellent idea! Very excellent. Thus, intelligent flying will result in better aircraft. A great idea!!!
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(http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero/5GIAP.jpg)
leonid, Komandir
5 GIAP VVS RKKA (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 05-17-2000).]
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And intelligent flying would be?
-- Todd/DMF
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sweet!
guess we will be seeing some super birds like the ta152 me262, p38K (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) , spitfireXIV, la7, tempest, f4u4(w 4 cannons! OMG! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ),
fortunately they will be rare and less suicidal in pushing a fight (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 05-17-2000).]
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ARGH.
Why do you keep posting the La-7 as "uber" or "rare" Cit? It was the primary ride after '44 along with the Yak-9U and -3
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I'm excited about the potential for some interesting "uber-rides"...BUT...these could create some serious play balance issues. I recognize that a significant percentage of the hardcore AH fliers favor "realism" based arena factors...HOWEVER...there are many myself included who could care less about "score"...I had my kicks on that subject years ago...one in a while I get the points itch..and thankfully it usually goes away quickly. Am I implying I can rack em up at will...NO...simply that "points" flying has little appeal to me. The implementation of a reward system for points will change the dynamics of the game significantly...for the worse in my opinion.
I'd like to see at least some comprimise..give every player a limited set of rides in the uberbirds...if you wantto reward good flying with additional planes fine...but freezing out players of different mindset..or skill level..may have a very negative effect on this community.
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262 might be uber in certain aspects, but was not that rare (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I don't care how they do it exactly, I just don't want to have to fight an arena full of ta152s in my p38.
frankly I don't have any wish to fly super uber a/c on anything other than for just a quick jolly.
I mean seriously, I already have a hard enough time fighting 109g10s and p51s and spitfirs in my favorite plane, the p38.
these late war monsters MUST be limited in the extreme and very rare to keep play balance decent.
personally I think it is best to have the variety they provide, but like tobasco sauce, more than a little can leave you fuming.
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So the person with the best computer, best connection and the time to spend 6 to 8 hours a day in the arena, gets to fly the best planes? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
coker
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I don't thing the P-38K was produced.
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Obvioulsy, many issues will need to be addressed concerning skill level, time participation and plain old desire to get invloved in a reward/penalty system. Regardless, push the envelope and see what happens.
Yeager
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 05-17-2000).]
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I think a lot of people miss the point why "experience" points are such a good idea.
Currently: kill guy, he spawns, kill again.. do this for 5 hours and it doesn't affect anything, not the arena, not your "pilot", just an increase in score
With Experience Points: kill guy, he LOSES points, he will spawn somewhere safer, you "pilot" now has more experience points and you can work towards that awesome uber plane you've been trying to get all week. Furthermore resets will mean something = more points.
I think that the experience points should be exactly like COUNTERSTRIKE. In which every plane has a price.. you acquire planes by purchasing them. When you rtb with your shiney new plane the $ for that plane gets re-added to your experience bank account.
In case HT is reading this - you are doing a damn good job! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I think it's a cool idea, and I'm glad HTC are experimenting in this area instead of trying the same old stuff.
If it sucks, then we'll let them know!!!
But try it first!
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There I am merrily flying in my 109G10, feeling quite happy.
In swoops a hi speed [insert Überplane] that an take away the only thing the 109 got; climb.
Think I'll resaddle for the "quick 'n dirty" kills of the A5 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
Sure, currently not as safe an aircraft, but if there are planes that climb better than the 109, or zoom better than teh 51, or....well, you get the idea. If on every mission I run at 50-75% chance of meeting an Überplane that will negate most of the strong sides of any aircraft other than another überplane, I'll go for the quick kills. To me it seems easier to kill in the A8 than in the 109 for example. Less "dogfight" and more "in, kill, out".
It all depends on how HTC decides to implement it. The idea at its core isn't bad at all - on the contrary. How it is implemented may make it Übercool, or just plain silly. I'll give HTC the benefit of the doubt knowing what a sim they've already put together.
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
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And intelligent flying would be?
- Dead Man Flying
Intelligent flying would be defined as trying to come home in one piece. This is contrary to the more common kamikaze style flown by the majority of AH'ers (hate to say it, but it's true, and I'm one of them).
No one's saying that you can't fly suicidal, but if you do, then you should expect not to fly the best iron. And, in fact, who's to say you can't reach the best aircraft by semi-suicidal means? HTC hasn't decided how to implement the point system, so it's still up in the air.
It would be safe to say, however, that once you earn enough points to fly the best, then intelligent flying will be the order of the day.
Personally, I find it a nice compromise. People can fly any way they like in AH, but for a price - never to fly the best. Likewise, earn enough points to ride the best, and survival will become absolutely paramount. And a compromise is definitely in order, because for every suicidal player there is a realistic player, and right now there is no reason to fly realistically in AH.
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Originally posted by leonid:
<snip>
Personally, I find it a nice compromise. People can fly any way they like in AH, but for a price - never to fly the best. Likewise, earn enough points to ride the best, and survival will become absolutely paramount. And a compromise is definitely in order, because for every suicidal player there is a realistic player, and right now there is no reason to fly realistically in AH.
I bristle when people say that flying to live is realistic. It is more realistic than devil-may-care furballing, to be sure. However, it's still not *realistic*. Where historically did we have Niki's combatting Me109F's? Or Spit IX's attacking Spit V's? Where are the 10 to 1 odds that all Luftwaffe pilots should face?
I've seen "realistic" pilots, those who fly to live, leave wingmen to die so they can run out of a fight and into ack protection. I've seen such pilots hang lonewolf-style on the edges of lower furballs, waiting to cherry pick engaged targets. At the first sign of trouble, they'll split and leave their countrymen to their fates. That's flying to live, but it's not realistic.
It's my sincere hope that any system of rewards does not lead to an overabundance of this type of behavior. I'm cautiously optimistic about the new system proposed by HTC. However, I do think it's important to separate "intelligent" from "realistic."
-- Todd/DMF
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Hmmm,, I can see bad things in my future...
No uber planes, etc. gonna be pretty sad when I'm forced to fly around in a Stearman trainer cause I don't have the points for a hurricane.... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
All I can see coming from this is the best flyers, (wether due to good hardware, better/faster connects, and just plain old skill in air combat, are all flying around in these so-called uberplanes, while us no-real-skill are stuck in the target drones.....
Really makes me look forward to flying,,,
yup, yup, yup....
NOT!!!!!!!!!!!
On occassions since this went beta, I've seen some degree of score-whoring... Guess now it'll become common place (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Bet you'll see a LOT more 5 or 6 planes chasing 1 guy all trying for that POINTS Kill..
Personally, I think HTC may have just pulled the trigger on the gun pointing at their foot.
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GreyBeard, <---- not a happy camper
[This message has been edited by SC-GreyBeard (edited 05-18-2000).]
[This message has been edited by SC-GreyBeard (edited 05-18-2000).]
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Give *everyone* 20 of these uber planes at the start of the TOD. Ya lose one? You now have 19.
You pick if and when ya wanna take one up fer a spin.
You don't have to earn the right to fly them... but ya gotta earn the right to *keep* them.
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I think this is a great idea! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Greybeard, don't fall into despair. Yet. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Originally posted by SC-GreyBeard:
No uber planes, etc. gonna be pretty sad when I'm forced to fly around in a Stearman trainer cause I don't have the points for a hurricane.... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Originally posted by Pyro:
While the normal arena plane set will cost nothing, special planes will have a price required to fly them.
Camo
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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
[This message has been edited by LLv34_Camouflage (edited 05-18-2000).]
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Put that all in a different arena so we can test and see how it affects gameplay... and please keep an arena where we can fly what we want when we want ..
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I just hope that Fw190D9 isnt included between those uber rides...if It is then is time to put the runstang there, too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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when it will be like HT said, hmmmm.
like posted above.
the player with best connection and most time
& MONEY will fly the "special" fighters.
thats not the right way i think!!!!!
look at WB and AH scores. if you fly a lot,
you will have more points than other players.
so score board i a kind of "how much money and time i spent in AH" contest.
better will be the other way.
give erverybody in 1 TOD 3-5 of the birds.
only my opinion
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(http://saintaw.tripod.com/habicht.jpg)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
[This message has been edited by HABICHT (edited 05-18-2000).]
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I like Nash idea. A maximum number of monsters allowed fo each pilot. The better you fly the longer you keep them.
Scoring is actually meaningless with the wrong kill-system we have now (ditch-bug, wrong-button-death, good-rwy-landing-ditches, near-ack-kill, near-dieing-guy-kill, HO kills/deaths) and all those professional vulchers.
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I hope the Spit XIV and Tempest aren't going to be included as uber planes. They were both introduced long before many of the planes we already have now.
Are all uber planes going to cost the same? Or is the price going to be based on the degree of uberness? And is the F4U-1c going to be shifted to the uber category?
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Well, let's put it this way, if you're the type of flyer that goes right into the thick of a furball, or thinks nothing of flying into a gaggle of 3 or more enemy fighters, you deserve to die. And if your wingman is smart, he'll let you too. I mean, if you willfully put yourself into great danger without any plan other than 'WooHoo!' why should anyone else lift a finger to slow the process? Of course, there are extenuating circumstances, but we all generally know those when we see them.
As to 'intelligent' and 'realistic' equating to 'cowardice', that's a crock. In WWII air combat, the most valuable commodity was the pilot, not the machine. No combat aircraft took 20-some years to build, and train. To fly realistically means just that. I couldn't care less what the plane set was. If I was really going up into the sky flying a F4U-1D against enemy P-51Ds, one of my big concerns would be 'Hmm, hope I get back alive.'
Basically, I'm tired of the fly-die-tower-fly sequence so prevalent in online flight sims. I'm not suggesting that everything be changed to suit my needs either, because I know most players have no concern for a realistic approach. However, I do feel that HTC's idea has great merit without having the effect of disrupting the way AH plays now. The way I see it, a great many people will be flying a number of competent versions of fighter aircraft from different countries, while a very few will be in the cockpit of some very powerful, late/post-war iron. Fortunately, for the majority of players, these uber-pilots will have a real concern for their own welfare, and their attacks will be made only under the best of circumstances. Upset those circumstances, and I'm almost certain these uber-pilots will break off. Thus, in some ways uber-pilots will be less of a threat then some kamikaze spit driver whose only intent is to kill you, and/or die trying.
You can't have your cake, and eat it too.
As to Nash's idea, I don't like that you would have a number of planes to use up, because then you'd have a number of planes to make some mistakes, go nuts, etc. HTC's idea of earning the ride, then trying to hold onto it appeals a lot more, because it would just be the one. And for someone like myself who's been trying to figure out a way to put the fear of your life into an online flight sim environment, the Gang at Grapevine have a good one.
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(http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero/5GIAP.jpg)
leonid, Komandir
5 GIAP VVS RKKA (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 05-18-2000).]
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Good points Leonid. As far as I am concerned I dont want cakes, I want to fly my a/c against historical opponents in the proper WWII year. STOP. Everything different will make AH a "what if" or "1946!".
I like AH and look forward to the 190A-5, the A6M5b, the mighty Yak-9U, the Ju88 and the Lancaster. Keep up the good work HTC.
I can play for some months more without too much problems ... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Leonid, your right and I bet you didn't even think about it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) F4U's did actually fight P-51's in real combat. The "Soccer Wars" had several US types on each side that fought each other. So we're not as unrealistic as we thought (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Guys, while I admitt I have some fears just like the rest of you on the "SUPER uber planes" system will work, lets wait and see before we all start to have fits over it.
And I don't expect the F4U-1C to go into that Super-Uber category.
My guess would be planes like that come up in the "But it didn't see combat" arguements like the Ta-152H, Bf109K8, BearCat, TigerCat, P-51H, FG-2 SuperCorsair, Spit XX something, Yak-3P, La-9, Ki-83 (only Japanese plane I could think off like this) , and ALL the Jets from all sides (Me262, Me163, Gotha Flying Wing, Arado Blitz bomber, Meteor, and all the others).
It could be interesting if implemented properly, so lets wait and see what happens. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 05-18-2000).]
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So Verm you're happy for the Spit XIV and Tempest to go in as normal rides?
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I think it's an interesting idea, but it's hard for me to form a real opinion until a) I read more about it in detail and b) I try it for myself.
Thumbs up to HTC for trying something like this.
Fury
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Exactly. HTC are trying to improve the game as they see it, but we all just seem to want it all our own way... let's just see how it goes, eh? Give them a chance, fer chrissakes...
Duma (Cutlery-free zone)
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) CAN IT GET ANY BETTER!!!!
YEEHAAAWWW
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Please define UBER,
A Tempest at 2k 200 ias, with a Hurri 2 at 5k 300 ias on his 6, ok tell me who is the uber here. How do they define uber is alt and speed of engagement going to be factored in with the formula.
I hear the same complaints about the F4U, yet I have no problems with TOing in a F4U from a field capped with spits and I’m sure the spits don’t either! am I Uber or Homer.
Some may rebut that flying a “uber” AC ones shouldn’t get into the position of being low and slow with good turn fighters. Then you kill your own argument about “ubers” don’t ya?
Hopefully we will get lots of different arenas with specific scoring formulas with their own scoring pages so in fact your score is attached to that certain arena.
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Seems that several of you want to use this proposed system to punish people that want to defend bases. Its not enought that the hangers can be nocked down. Now if you defend bases you will never get an uber ride. We really have to be careful about this...Dont deride the poeple that fight hard to defend bases. This whole game is still based on the concept that people will fight hard and often to defend bases.....
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The problem Pongo is defining "Defend a Base".
Now this is just my opinon, and I'm just trying to explain my perspective, so don't anyone get all upset and take it personal.
But currently "Defend a Base" in AH is nothing near what "Defending a Base" was in any war I have ever heard of. Limitless aircraft taking off and engaging at 1,000 ft above the runway, dieing, and then taking off again, just didn't happen too much.
There are many ways to "defend" without buying into the launch, die, launch, routine.
How about trying to intercept the enemy before they get to your base? Establish a BARCAP between your airfield and theirs.
Another simple (but rarely used tactic) that I and my squaddies use to defend a base is to takeoff away from the battle, and go "sit on" (interdict their takeoffs) the base the enemy are attacking from. You wouldn't believe how quickly it dry's up that stream of 40 bad guys thats sitting above your airfield vulching all your countrymen. Its alot more effective than taking off in a Spit V, and dying 5 times for every aircraft you take down.
I guess my point is to think outside the "gaming" box. There are many ways to defend bases without dying repeatedly.
And this doesnt' even go into the "a good defense is a good offense" tactical school.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Hmm.... yah... Good point Pongo. While I think it's great that HTC are implementing this, and what the hell, it's an experiment, right? It does though raise some interesting issues. And it's broader than the "Basically, I'm tired of the fly-die-tower-fly sequence so prevalent in online flight sims" argument.
Take Pongo's point - base defense. Are you gonna want to do this now? Is it even realistic to up in the face of overwhelming odds? I don't know. When you see a guy drivin' an uber plane, I suppose one can assume that he hasn't taken one for the team all that often. Or, is that just being smart?
If you want to have an arena that reflects 'realistic' combat, is this a step in the right direction? I have no idea. I guess I'd like to hear from the guys who know their WWII history. Did the combatants *only* engage when they had the advantage? Were furballs rare in WWII? If a flight came upon a furball, would they avoid it? If, like Lenoid says, that the pilot and not the plane was the most valuable commodity, would it be foolish to scramble from a field under attack?
Again, I'm all for HTC trying new things. And I'm looking forward to seeing this thing in action. It does though raise some interesting points, and I'm just not sure that this system rewards realism to the extent that some people point out.
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Some would avoid it, some wouldn't. The more successful/long lived ones tended to avoid it. There are just too many arbitrary ways to die in a multi-aircraft melee.
Even so, good/great pilots did find themselves in furballs. Saburo Sakai (64 kills) ended up in a fight with 15 F6F Hellcats against his 1 A6M5 Zero and didn't get hit once. Mind you, he didn't hit any, but he did live (By getting to friendly ack, by the way).
Sisu
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I will continue to fly as I have. If I get a perk, great. If not, that's ok too. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Alright, long post, but its worth it because it contains the best idea I've heard in a long time. Namely because its mine (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
What about if you not only get points for individual flying (whatever that system may be), but also for when your country does well. For example, have vehicle bases be worth a few points, small & medium airbases worth a few more points, large airbases worth a few more points. If your country captures a base, every one of your countrymen online at that time gets that ammount of points. If your country destroys another country's HQ, City, etc..., every one of your countrymen gets some other ammount of points. If you country resets the map, every one of your countrymen winds up getting some other ammount of points.
Okay, a different spin on the idea, what if it was possible to reward people that performed well during a mission created with the mission editor? This might be a squeak to create and balance, but I hope HTC takes a look at its viability. For example: Take on a defensive cap mission to guard a base, get X points times the number of enemy planes encountered during the mission if you manage to survive it and the base is not taken. Take on a mission to bomb an airfield, get some points based on the number of targets hit at that airfield if you survive the mission.
These two concepts would reward the people who are into strategic play, promotes more strategic play and also gives people who don't fight for score the ability to eventually acrue enough points to buy an uber-plane for awhile. The first one seems to me like it would be easy enough to implement, the second might be more difficult. Alright, now rip it to shreds (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Gordo
Fat Drunk Bastards! (http://fdb.50megs.com/)
[This message has been edited by Lance (edited 05-18-2000).]
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I'd like to add a point to this "intelligent" flying argument...In real life, missions were often difficult and mounted against tough odd's...in AH flying smart really means minimizing risks...not accomplishing squat...until you really evolve a more realistic play model that forces/rewards those dirty elements...you've got a flight SIM...not a reenactment of real life.
Now, how bout the following...no points for uber planes till you killed 25 17's without dying...or till you jabo'd 20 acks as a allied pilot...or scrambled into your 4 man flight of 202's into 24 high spits like the Italian's often had to. Real life didn't involve fighting when you liked the odd's.
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I can't wait to get my first AH 262 in a P-40B.
All I need HT and Pyro to do is put in the P-40B.
Of course unless they feel it is too uber, the two cowl mounted fifties and four wing mounted .30, .303, or .308 cal machine guns.
Bring it On!
P-40 No Points -vs- 262 15000 points. If I win I will never, never, never, let my victim live it down. And I only need to win once.
HT/Pyro.
If you bring in the TA-152, ME-262, Etc.. Etc.. Buffs will be TOAST. How about the B-29 with the radar guided .50 Call machine guns?
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(http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1/dtahcard.gif)
"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!
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If you get points every time your side takes a base, and lose them every time your side loses a base there is plenty of incentive for attack and defense.
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2 THINGS(based on limited info given by HTC)
1 Fun idea in theory
2 BAD idea in practice IF not done right. First words HTC is going to hear from the NEWBIES, NOT so skilled, and people with not a lot of time....." I PAY $30.00 a month!! I FLY whatever I DAMN well PLEASE!"
HTC you guys have a great sim and I am a AH pilot for life, JUST be CAREFULL on how you due this. AH is treading on thin ICE, cant stay in business if you lose a large portion of your customer base. There is only a handfull of pilots that PUMP in 10+hours a week, they won't keep you in business. One respone is(not hourly) well I know that but on a users end evne though unlimited if someone spends that kind of money but due to various reasons never gets to fly the ubber ride... WBIII here I come. Not beeing a negative person,... just showing the reality of business and how the customer views bang for buck and does he/she get to due what they want for that buck. After beeing in the Customer Service industry for 16 years, I know what works..and won't if executed improperly.
I am for the new point system! JUST becareful on how you due it.
GOrf
out
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The thought of big big guns makes me feel all funny inside (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). But inspite of this. I think this idea should be postponed, until after the base planeset is fleshed out some more.
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You guys got it all wrong.
I feel sorry for the guys getting the "uber-plane".
Just paint a big target on their plane. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I have a vision of 15 planes chasing a lone 262 around the arena. More vectoring in from every sector to cut him off. I see every pilot diving through swarms of enemies, ignoring all threats just to try and get pings on that 262 and maybe a golden BB. I see people moving to to the other team to trail the 262 and transmit info via RW on his heading, alt and location coordinating the fox hunt because their sick and tired of Torque terrorizing the arena in his 262. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Its the hunter that will be hunted.
All that being said, lets try it anyway. I say throw it up agianst the wall: if it sticks, keep it. If it sucks, throw it away and try something else. Its all good.
Regards,
Wab
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Originally posted by leonid:
Well, let's put it this way, if you're the type of flyer that goes right into the thick of a furball, or thinks nothing of flying into a gaggle of 3 or more enemy fighters, you deserve to die. And if your wingman is smart, he'll let you too. I mean, if you willfully put yourself into great danger without any plan other than 'WooHoo!' why should anyone else lift a finger to slow the process? Of course, there are extenuating circumstances, but we all generally know those when we see them.
[/b]
Unfortunately, reality was not so simple so as to allow pilots to always pick their fights. When the Luftwaffe was ordered to attack the massive bomber formations with fighter escort, I doubt many said, "No way, I don't like those odds. I'm outta here." They may have thought that, but they had a job to do, and they did it.
In my mind, flying intelligently doesn't mean picking and choosing your fights. It means making the best choices given the situation with which you're presented. You can't ALWAYS fight when things are to your advantage. THAT is unrealistic.
As to 'intelligent' and 'realistic' equating to 'cowardice', that's a crock. In WWII air combat, the most valuable commodity was the pilot, not the machine. No combat aircraft took 20-some years to build, and train. To fly realistically means just that. I couldn't care less what the plane set was. If I was really going up into the sky flying a F4U-1D against enemy P-51Ds, one of my big concerns would be 'Hmm, hope I get back alive.'
[/b]
I didn't equate them with cowardice. Realistic flying was far from cowardly; pilots may have had a mind toward self-preservation, but they also had jobs to do. If diving into furballs with no eye toward survival is unrealistic (and it is), so too is hanging around the edges of said furball and running when things get hairy. In one case, the pilot probably dies, and in the other he probably lives. Both are fantasy.
<snip>
Fortunately, for the majority of players, these uber-pilots will have a real concern for their own welfare, and their attacks will be made only under the best of circumstances. Upset those circumstances, and I'm almost certain these uber-pilots will break off. Thus, in some ways uber-pilots will be less of a threat then some kamikaze spit driver whose only intent is to kill you, and/or die trying.
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Well, to be more realistic then all Me262's should be outnumbered 10 or 20 to 1. They must engage fully-gunned bomber formations with fighter escort. That's realistic. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I think the point I'm trying to make is that self-preservation alone is not realistic, and many kinds of behavior that lead to self-preservation in the arena are far from realistic. Some are, surely, but others just plain aren't. I hope we have a system of rewards that differentiates between them.
You can't have your cake, and eat it too.
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Sure I can. You are.
I'm really curious to see how this works out. I've been impressed with everything I've seen from HTC so far, so I'm hopeful. I do have this nagging desire in the back of my head to see our current non-uber planeset fleshed out before we add anything over-the-top. What about P-47s, P-40s, P-39s, Me110's, Ki-43s, Ki-61's, A20's, A26's, B-24's, Ju87's, La7's, MiG's, more Yaks, Vals, Kates, Mossies, Hurricanes, TBF Avengers, SBD's, etc etc etc?
I'd be upset if we get a Komet before we get an Me110. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-- Todd/DMF
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Dead Man Flying,
I agree, self-preservation alone is not realistic, unless you're shell-shocked or deserting, and I'm not advocating that. But the fact remains that the willingness, or unwillingness, to fight is an option in our present version of AH. Adding this career system won't really change that, nor will it necessarily reward it.
My point is that as Aces High stands now, there is no overt mechanism to reward cool, calm, intelligent tactics, because death has no lasting disadvantage other than some lost points. And since so many people take advantage of instant respawning, what's the incentive to try and actually make it back home alive? I may try my best to fly as if my life depended on it, but if I'm engaged in combat with what amounts to a pilot with no concern for his welfare, then my efforts are wasted for the most part. I mean HO's were a part of WWII, but in most situations it was done with the knowledge that ones aircraft was better prepared for it, ie Fw190A vs Yak-1, or F4F vs A6m2. And if some pilots appear to be bordering on 'cowardice', then it's probably in response to the absolutely unrealistic flying habits of the majority of players in AH, and any other online combat flight sim, for that matter.
Right now, self-preservation has no tangible reward in AH. Maybe this idea of HTC's will give those of us who value such things something to latch onto. As far as I can see it, the 'let's have fun' group appears to hold all the cards. And, I'm not saying that I don't have fun too, but if some scheme could be implemented that rewarded me for taking care of myself, I'd take it in a minute.
Finally, I remember one story concerning the P-51 team of Gentile & (sorry I forgot his name). They spotted a lower Bf109 while on patrol. What happened next astonished them: the 109 pilot came after them. They promptly shot it down, but were very surprised that the pilot didn't just dive away immediately, and chalked it up to pilot inexperience.
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(http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero/5GIAP.jpg)
leonid, Komandir
5 GIAP VVS RKKA (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 05-18-2000).]
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leonid I think it would be cool in and of itself if we "no soldier won the war by dying" flyers were given a streak counter and best streak info for a tour.
when I flew in WB this was always my favorite goal, to get a very large streak of kills without dying. kind of like the ww2 aces cept if I did bite the dust I could do it all over again (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
but then after the streak got into the 70's I was hoping someone would get me just so I could relax and go furball like I could respawn in an instant after I died and mix it up (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) of course eventually someone did end my streak and I went on merilly furballing in the most dangerous places I could find, but then I got bored of that and went back to seeing if I could top my best streak (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 05-18-2000).]
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That's an idea, Citabria.