Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Serenity on October 16, 2010, 06:41:09 PM
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So I set a goal this summer, that at the end of this school year, I was going to buy my first gun. I do have some basic knowledge of firearms safety, have a friend who owns several rifles, and I have been taught the basics through CAP, and I'm on my ROTC Battalions pistol team. However, when it comes to actually purchasing and owning a firearm, I'm clueless. So, I come here.
I'm 18, so I cannot buy a handgun (I don't think. I've heard if you're military you can, and technically as an ROTC midshipman, I'm a reserveist, but I don't know how that works). I live in the great nation of Texas, for however that affects things.
I REALLY want a Springfield Armory M1A. I don't know which version would be best for me, but I know I want a wooden stock, none of that tacti-cool SOCOM junk. However, if anyone else has any other nice rifles to suggest, I am open to it.
What is the standard procedure for purchasing a weapon? The trail from permit to purchase, and are there any tricks I need to know?
And what should I plan to invest in as well as the rifle?
Thanks in advance folks! (And before you say it, I did google it, but I thought it would be nice to hear it from folks I know and trust and be able to ask questions as well.)
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You'll shoot your eye out kid!
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For the pistol question: You cannot, at 18, purchase a pistol from a FFL (Federal Firearms Licensee), per federal statute you must be 21. However, depending on the specific laws in your state of residence, you may be able to purchase one from an individual. It would take me a bit to find the specific citation, but I am 99% sure an 18 year old can possess and own a pistol, depending on the laws of your state.
For example: My daughter is 19, because of Federal statutes she cannot go to the local gun shop and purchase a pistol. However, she can legally purchase a pistol from my neighbor and be within the letter of the law. In the case of TX, you can also make your purchases like this, at age 18.
For the rifle: You are clear to own, possess and purchase a rifle at 18, unless there are laws specific to your state, and from my research there are no laws in TX forbidding an 18 year old from possessing, owning, or purchasing (in a private or face-to-face sale).
The process is simple. In scenario 1 you walk into Wal-Mart, see a gun you want, fill out some paperwork (ATF Form 4473), wait for the background check, and if there is no waiting period in your state, you walk out the door with your newly purchased firearm. There is, to the best of my knowledge, no mandatory registration in TX.
In scenario 2 you find someone who is selling a gun you want to buy, you give them cash, they give you the gun. This is called a "Face-to-face" sale and in most states (including TX) it is perfectly legal.
The third scenario (rifle/shotgun only!) is you find a gun you like on an online site (gunbroker.com for example), you bid, win the auction, have the rifle/shotgun shipped to a local gun shop (pre-arrange the shipping, some gun shops will charge extra for doing a transfer this way), then you would follow the steps in scenario 1.
I'm sure there will be others that can give more specific information regarding your specific state laws.
You could also go here: http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/forum.php
Everything I wrote is contingent on you NOT being a prohibited person as defined by the federal laws and the laws of your state.
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For the pistol question: You cannot, at 18, purchase a pistol from a FFL (Federal Firearms Licensee), per federal statute you must be 21. However, depending on the specific laws in your state of residence, you may be able to purchase one from an individual. It would take me a bit to find the specific citation, but I am 99% sure an 18 year old can possess and own a pistol, depending on the laws of your state.
For example: My daughter is 19, because of Federal statutes she cannot go to the local gun shop and purchase a pistol. However, she can legally purchase a pistol from my neighbor and be within the letter of the law. In the case of TX, you can also make your purchases like this, at age 18.
For the rifle: You are clear to own, possess and purchase a rifle at 18, unless there are laws specific to your state, and from my research there are no laws in TX forbidding an 18 year old from possessing, owning, or purchasing (in a private or face-to-face sale).
The process is simple. In scenario 1 you walk into Wal-Mart, see a gun you want, fill out some paperwork (ATF Form 4473), wait for the background check, and if there is no waiting period in your state, you walk out the door with your newly purchased firearm. There is, to the best of my knowledge, no mandatory registration in TX.
In scenario 2 you find someone who is selling a gun you want to buy, you give them cash, they give you the gun. This is called a "Face-to-face" sale and in most states (including TX) it is perfectly legal.
The third scenario (rifle/shotgun only!) is you find a gun you like on an online site (gunbroker.com for example), you bid, win the auction, have the rifle/shotgun shipped to a local gun shop (pre-arrange the shipping, some gun shops will charge extra for doing a transfer this way), then you would follow the steps in scenario 1.
I'm sure there will be others that can give more specific information regarding your specific state laws.
You could also go here: http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/forum.php
Everything I wrote is contingent on you NOT being a prohibited person as defined by the federal laws and the laws of your state.
The transfer must go through an FFL unless it's a C&R (Curios & Relic)...
Make sure you follow the transfer guidelines and rules.
It is illegal to simply hand a private citizen cash and get a firearm as adequate consideration...
Your transfer agent will know the rules and inform you as to what you 'can and cannot' do...
Interstate transfers will require two FFL's as the shipping of firearms across state lines is illegal when it comes to disinterested and non-qualifying parties such as two strangers exchanging mutual agreed considerations...if a firearm is a component of compensation or consideration...
Intra-familial exchanges are a special case however...the government views the gifting or transfer of firearms between family members differently...
Out
Oneway
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The transfer must go through an FFL unless it's a C&R (Curios & Relic)...
Make sure you follow the transfer guidelines and rules.
It is illegal to simply hand a private citizen cash and get a firearm as adequate consideration...
Your transfer agent will know the rules and inform you as to what you 'can and cannot' do...
Interstate transfers will require two FFL's as the shipping of firearms across state lines is illegal when it comes to disinterested and non-qualifying parties such as two strangers exchanging mutual agreed considerations...if a firearm is a component of compensation or consideration...
Intra-familial exchanges are a special case however...the government views the gifting or transfer of firearms between family members differently...
Out
Oneway
I work part time at an indoor gunrange and gunstore here in PA. (Friend owns the business, i do it for the discounts i get buying from him for my IPSC shooting, that and I always have a dry place to practice :D)
ALL the above that Oneway wrote is to the letter of the Law here in PA.
PA is not a waiting period state, you fill out the 4473, the FFL calls into the state,and they give you an approval number, you walk out with your firearm, this is done for Pistols,Rifle and shotguns. ( Please make sure you have a current drivers lic. with current address)
If you are denied the purchace thru PICS, you have the right to challenge the decision, the dealer will give you a form, you fill it out and send it in, thats when the wait begins, gun stays at the shop until the dealer is notified of the results of the challenge ( I just put that in to let you know that it sometimes happens, no reflection on you Serenity)
Dealer has the right to stop or not sell you the firearm for any reason. If he doesnt feel comfortable with the sale, you dont get the gun.
Buying or selling intra state is FFL to FFL.
C&Rs require none of the above.
Double check your state firearms laws though.THey vary from state to state.
As far as a good shooter, you cant go wrong with an M1A.( as my dad use to say "you got good taste in guns kid!" lol ) I have 2 (both wood stocks )one is for LR shooting ( all custom ) the other i did up in all sorts of accessories, bipod,cheekpiece,scope etc.... The only down side is the cost of the ammo. Recoil is not that bad due to the firing mech. and the weight and balance of the gun. Ive shot 150 rounds in a day out of both and was fine.
If your looking for something in particular, let me know, Id be glad to see what my friends store could do for you $ wise. Downside is i think the dealer to dealer and shipping might absorb what discount i could get you, but id be glad to help in any way i can sir, Good Luck :salute
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The transfer must go through an FFL unless it's a C&R (Curios & Relic)...
Make sure you follow the transfer guidelines and rules.
It is illegal to simply hand a private citizen cash and get a firearm as adequate consideration...
Your transfer agent will know the rules and inform you as to what you 'can and cannot' do...
Interstate transfers will require two FFL's as the shipping of firearms across state lines is illegal when it comes to disinterested and non-qualifying parties such as two strangers exchanging mutual agreed considerations...if a firearm is a component of compensation or consideration...
Intra-familial exchanges are a special case however...the government views the gifting or transfer of firearms between family members differently...
Out
Oneway
You have been mis-informed. There is no federal law regulating the transfer of firearms through individuals residing within the same state. Some states do restrict this practice. In PA a face-to-face transfer of a long gun is legal, while a handgun will require the transfer go through an FFL.
Here in WV any firearm (handgun or long gun) may be bought, sold and transferred between individuals without the transfer going through an FFL. I can, and have bought both pistols and rifles from individuals where it was a case of I had them money, they hand me the firearm they were selling.
Transfers to a prohibited person are of course forbidden.
The transfer of a long gun across state lines only requires an FFL on the receiving end. However many FFL's will not accept a shipment from a non-FFL.
The transfer of a handgun does require an FFL on both ends.
Since there is contention I'll dig up the appropriate federal statues.
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Federal law:
Most questions on Federal Firearms Law can be answered by the ATFs FAQ on the subject, the FAQ covers sales, dealing, and many other subjects:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html
to put it simple, heres some guidelines to follow to keep your butt out of lockup. these are NOT all the laws, if you are unfamiliar with Firearms laws, it's suggested that you do some research before proceeding.
Pertinent Federal Law:
1. Interstate sales of ANY firearm (handgun or longarm) MUST involve a FFL on the buyers end. It is a felony under Federal law to sell to residents of another state FTF or by mail/shipping without involving a FFL on the buyers end.
2. Longarms can generally be purchased from a FFL in any state, or from a resident of your own state.
3. Handguns can only be purchased from/through a FFL in your state of residence.
4. Federal law allows persons 18 years and older to purchase longarms from an FFL.
5. Federal Law allows persons 21 years and older to purchase Handguns from an FFL.
Pertinent Pennsylvania Law:
1. Face To Face transfers/sales of longarms (shotgun or rifle) are legal in Pennsylvania. There is no requirement to use a FFL for a transfer of a longarm in PA, as long as neither person is a "prohibited person" (legally unable to purchase a firearm ) and both are legal aged(18 or older) residents of Pennsylvania. It's SUGGESTED that you provide a Bill of Sale and check ID on purchasers.
2. Concealable weapons (Handguns, rifles/MGs with a barrel less than 16", shotguns with a barrel less than 18", and AOWs) MUST be transferred through a FFL (Or Sheriffs Dept), and the PICS must be performed on the buyer before sale is completed. Age for transfer of the above weapons at an FFL is 21.
3. Handguns may be legally transferred without FFL or Sheriffs Dept approval between Married Spouses, Parents and children, and Grandparent to grandchild, provided that the recipient is at least 18 years of age, and not a prohibited person.
4. You cannot sell ANY firearm of any type to a Prohibited Person, this INCLUDES BLACK POWDER FIREARMS.
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Ya i realized that it is a state by state issue regarding the FFL thing...I realized that when I was driving to the store...
In California and other states you must use an FFL...other states not...
The non-use of the FFL goes hand in hand with what is otherwise known as a straw purchase...or what the anti gun type refer to as the 'gun show loophole'
I am sorry for the misinformation...
Either way the use of an FFL is recommended on any normal transfer because the expertise of the individual will assist the parties in effecting a legal transfer...
Apologies
Oneway
Edit: I was referring to hand guns only by the way...
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Just a clarification on the difference between straw-man purchase and the so-called "gun show loophole".
The "gun show loophole" is the exact same thing as a "face-to-face" transfer. Meaning you walk up to the guy at the gun show, give him money, he gives you a firearm. It is no different than answering a classified ad from a person in your state and purchasing a gun the same way.
A Strawman purchase is where a prohibited person has a third party purchase a firearm with the intent to transfer possession to the prohibited person. A strawnman purchase is not a father buying a rifle for his child (provided the child is of legal age), nor is it me buying a firearm as a gift to my brother-in-law. However if RandomThugletJustReleasedOnPa role has his baby's-mama go to the gun store and get him a gat, that's a strawman purchase, and illegal.
You can go here: http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf and scroll down to page 9 where it begins listing what a prohibited person is. There are also often state laws which expand the list of "people who the state has deemed no longer have the right to keep and bear arms".
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I'll just second the "good taste in guns!" :aok
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First off, thanks to everyone for the info! It's been really helpful!
If your looking for something in particular, let me know, Id be glad to see what my friends store could do for you $ wise. Downside is i think the dealer to dealer and shipping might absorb what discount i could get you, but id be glad to help in any way i can sir, Good Luck :salute
Well, I have a short list I would like to eventually buy at some point in my life, including an M1A (My goal is for this to be my first purchase), an FS2000 (Didn't used to like these, until I fired one a friend of mine owned. It was AMAZING in balance and recoil), M1911, and a Luger. I know those are all going to be pricey, and several years apart in purchase. As I said though, if you have any intel on M1As that would be VERY welcome!
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For your M1A, you can always check CMP (Civilian Marksmanship Program).
http://www.odcmp.com/
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When I bought my rifle there was a 72 hour waiting period here in IL. Also have to carry and show my FOID card for purchases
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First off, thanks to everyone for the info! It's been really helpful!
Well, I have a short list I would like to eventually buy at some point in my life, including an M1A (My goal is for this to be my first purchase), an FS2000 (Didn't used to like these, until I fired one a friend of mine owned. It was AMAZING in balance and recoil), M1911, and a Luger. I know those are all going to be pricey, and several years apart in purchase. As I said though, if you have any intel on M1As that would be VERY welcome!
Well Serenity they have a big SAXET gun show in Austin every other weekend. You can always check there
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Springfield M1As are pricey. Very nice if you can afford it, but do you want to shoot or admire it :)
My first way back when now was a Colt AR-15 SP1. That was when I was in college so about 1979. Ended up selling it an regretting it ever since! Considering what I paid for it then, and what it would go for now..... :cry
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The M-1A is a great gun, however, they are very expensive to shoot from what I understand. I own a Garand and can barely afford to shoot it more than once or twice a year. :cry
If you're looking for a gun that you can use to get familiar with the sport, why not consider a .22? I've got a Ruger 10/22 that I absolutely love. Can go blasting all day with it for relatively little money. (Shooting marshmallows out of a pond is great fun.)
Another suggestion would be any of the rifles chambered for 7.62x39. I have a cheap Norinco SKS that I call my "utility" gun. I love to take this baby out and fire it at all types of targets. Unfortunately, with my particular model, I've run into a few issues with what appears to be "slamfiring". What I mean is that I'll fire of a round downrange, only to have it followed up by 1 or 2 more rounds that went off unintentionally. Buy sloppy Chinese junk, and get sloppy Chinese results I guess. (It is still a rather cheap gun to shoot, and this type of behavior is rare. Still, I can't let anyone that doesn't know the rifle's quirks handle it EVER.) Come to think of it, this was my first rifle purchase. Got it at a local bait shop for $90 when I turned 18. :D
Foremost above all though, is to be safe. (I know, I know.) Invest in good eye and ear protection.
And have fun.
<S> Melvin
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Melvin, you should get that sks fixed asap and not shoot it until it is fixed.
BTW it's cheaper to get a CMP M1 Garand and simply get a new barrel put on it (assuming the rest of the gun checks out good too) than it is to buy a basic model M1A. You can also get it converted to shoot .308 at the same time for really no additional cost, say about $225 altogether plush shipping. That would be about half of the cost of the M1A.
I would also second the idea of a 22 for a first gun, especially if funds are tight. You can shoot a whole lot more with a .22 lr than any centerfire rifle for the cost of a box of 20 centerfire rifle rounds.
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Not to hijack the thread but perhaps i could get a question answered as well.
I've owned that SKS for approximately 16 yrs, and have fired countless (thousands maybe) rounds through it. I've only had the slamfire issue happen 2 or 3 times in that span. I seem to recall that the issue would spring up toward the end of my shooting day. This leads me to believe that the culprit may be dirt or powder fouling in the bolt mechanism. (Cheap Russian rounds are VERY dirty and corrosive.)
Does anybody else have an opinion on this matter? Including any possible diagnosis and solutions to the problem.
Serenity, if your intent is to use the M1 for long range shooting, remember all of the extra gear that will be required. Spotting scope, dope books, shooting pad, etc. If money isn't an issue, I've seen some real nice heavy barrel AR's that would fit the bill nicely.
<S> Melvin
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Well, I hate to admit it, but I would probably spend more time admiring the weapon than shooting it, because the nearest range is NOT conveniently located, and my range-time with the battalion is on Government Issue weapons, so I'm not TOO concerned with the price of ammo.
A lot of you have suggested AR-15s, but in all honesty, I'm just not as fond of them.
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I would get a shotgun first and do trap/skeet....trap/skeet shells are like $5.50 for a box of 25 here in cali....rifles are like 20 bucks for 20 30-06....
-BigBOBCH
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If you can get your hands on one...M1 Garand.
There are tons of fancy (read: expensive) deer rifles out there but if I only could have one rifle, that would be it.
If you are more of a duck/partridge/phesant kind of guy go with a 10 or 12 gauge. Your local pawn shop will be filled to overflowing with far cheaper than gunshop retail prices and the guns will most likely be in great shape. Gun owners tend to take better care of their guns than they do cars.
WHATEVER YOU DO: take a gun safety course!!!!!! It can be the difference between life and death. Once a tragedy happens...you can't take tragedy back.
Good Luck!
ROX
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If you can get your hands on one...M1 Garand.
There are tons of fancy (read: expensive) deer rifles out there but if I only could have one rifle, that would be it.
If you are more of a duck/partridge/phesant kind of guy go with a 10 or 12 gauge. Your local pawn shop will be filled to overflowing with far cheaper than gunshop retail prices and the guns will most likely be in great shape. Gun owners tend to take better care of their guns than they do cars.
WHATEVER YOU DO: take a gun safety course!!!!!! It can be the difference between life and death. Once a tragedy happens...you can't take tragedy back.
Good Luck!
ROX
I'm not a hunter at all, never done it, don't expect I will anytime soon. Would a supplementary civilian course be necessary in addition to the standard military deal?
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I'd first ask what you want a gun for...a gun to have fun and shoot? A HD gun? One to look at?
Shotgun ammo is inexpensive like Redman said around 5 or 6 bucks for 25 rds...rifle ammo gets expensive...most around a buck a shot.
Shotguns are fun to shoot and double as a HD weapon. Plus they come in many different configurations. You can go classic and get a wood stock or go tacticool and get synthetic stocks with PG's and LED fore-ends.
A fun gun next on my list would be some sort of rifle but chambered in .22LR...also very cheap to shoot (but not worth much for any sort of hunting).
Keep in mind a gun is one of those things in life where if you take care of it, it'll never lose it's value and only gain value as time goes on.
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Not to hijack the thread but perhaps i could get a question answered as well.
I've owned that SKS for approximately 16 yrs, and have fired countless (thousands maybe) rounds through it. I've only had the slamfire issue happen 2 or 3 times in that span. I seem to recall that the issue would spring up toward the end of my shooting day. This leads me to believe that the culprit may be dirt or powder fouling in the bolt mechanism. (Cheap Russian rounds are VERY dirty and corrosive.)
Does anybody else have an opinion on this matter? Including any possible diagnosis and solutions to the problem.
<S> Melvin
The firing pin in a Chinese SKS "floats" inside the carrier. Slamfires are usually caused by the Firing Pin being stuck in the forward, firing position. Causing each round to be fired off as they are chambered.
Take the Bolt Carrier Out and hold next to your ear and shake it. An SKS firing pin should move freely and rattle in the carrier when you shake it. If it hangs up when you shake it or doesn't move at all You need to take apart the carrier and examine the Pin. It is most likely just some Cosmoline stuck in there. Search for Bolt Carrier instructions on Youtube.
Hope that helps. I collect Mil-Surp and own 9 SKS rifles.
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The transfer must go through an FFL unless it's a C&R (Curios & Relic)...
Make sure you follow the transfer guidelines and rules.
It is illegal to simply hand a private citizen cash and get a firearm as adequate consideration...
Your transfer agent will know the rules and inform you as to what you 'can and cannot' do...
Interstate transfers will require two FFL's as the shipping of firearms across state lines is illegal when it comes to disinterested and non-qualifying parties such as two strangers exchanging mutual agreed considerations...if a firearm is a component of compensation or consideration...
Intra-familial exchanges are a special case however...the government views the gifting or transfer of firearms between family members differently...
Out
Oneway
Show me where it says I can't buy a handgun face to face in Texas.
Just finished reading the thread.... nevermind :D
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The firing pin in a Chinese SKS "floats" inside the carrier. Slamfires are usually caused by the Firing Pin being stuck in the forward, firing position. Causing each round to be fired off as they are chambered.
Take the Bolt Carrier Out and hold next to your ear and shake it. An SKS firing pin should move freely and rattle in the carrier when you shake it. If it hangs up when you shake it or doesn't move at all You need to take apart the carrier and examine the Pin. It is most likely just some Cosmoline stuck in there. Search for Bolt Carrier instructions on Youtube.
Hope that helps. I collect Mil-Surp and own 9 SKS rifles.
Thanks for the response Nefarious.
Over the years I've torn that rifle down numerous times and often find a lot of buildup in the bolt carrier after a day of shooting. Like I said, I tend to use lower quality ammo when I'm out blasting things. From what I have heard this low quality ammo tends to burn very dirty, which would explain the rapid buildup of powder deposits.
I think that the next time I go shooting, I'll stop after every few stripper clips and pull the assembly for a quick inspection. (As you know, it only takes a few seconds.)
I remember the first time it happened. My buddy was shooting at the time.... BAM! BAM! He nearly pooped!
<S> and thanks again... Melvin
Edit: For Serenity. I would recommend further instruction on any weapon you buy. When I went through BRM during basic training, I found the course only covered very rudimentary aspects of weapon handling. They taught us enough to be semi-safe and hit the target some of the time. :rofl I'm not saying it was useless, but those of us that shot expert had quite a bit of previous firearms experience. (I think we were a bit more comfortable.)
Actually, now that I think of it, it was rather amazing that the DI's could teach some of those kids to hit anything.
Drill Instructors are quite the capable bunch.
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Serenity you should join a local gun club that participates in state and national match shooting. Everything else you need will follow from that.
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Would a supplementary civilian course be necessary in addition to the standard military deal?
No. If you have received the standard Marine Corps safety classes from your AMOI, you will be good to go. I don't know where you're going to school, but if you're at A&M, you're going to have access to resources not readily available to most civilians. 4 basic safety rules...Go ahead and memorize them now, because you'll need them at OCS and TBS, thankfully regardless of MOS.
1. Treat every weapon as if it were loaded.
2. Never point a weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot.
3. Keep your weapon on safe until you are ready to fire.
4. Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you intend to fire.
My roommates and I used to keep condition one weapons in the house without incident, and we were comfortable with it, as long as no guests were in the home. As soon as the guests showed up, we briefed them and made sure we didn't leave them unsupervised in the rooms that contained the weapons...
Safe weapons handling is a perishable skill though. The more time you carry and fire your weapon, the safer you will become, as you develop muscle memory. If you have long periods between the times you handle your weapon, you will forget basic things. The safest and most proficient I ever was was when I was carrying a weapon every day, 24/7. You won't be able to do that at school, but make the most of the opportunities you do have, and look to create opportunities when you can.
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No. If you have received the standard Marine Corps safety classes from your AMOI, you will be good to go. I don't know where you're going to school, but if you're at A&M, you're going to have access to resources not readily available to most civilians. 4 basic safety rules...Go ahead and memorize them now, because you'll need them at OCS and TBS, thankfully regardless of MOS.
1. Treat every weapon as if it were loaded.
2. Never point a weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot.
3. Keep your weapon on safe until you are ready to fire.
4. Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you intend to fire.
My roommates and I used to keep condition one weapons in the house without incident, and we were comfortable with it, as long as no guests were in the home. As soon as the guests showed up, we briefed them and made sure we didn't leave them unsupervised in the rooms that contained the weapons...
Safe weapons handling is a perishable skill though. The more time you carry and fire your weapon, the safer you will become, as you develop muscle memory. If you have long periods between the times you handle your weapon, you will forget basic things. The safest and most proficient I ever was was when I was carrying a weapon every day, 24/7. You won't be able to do that at school, but make the most of the opportunities you do have, and look to create opportunities when you can.
Thanks Stoney, great info as always! I'm at UT Austin, with depressingly limited resources.
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I'm at UT Austin, with depressingly limited resources.
But lots of better looking women, which in collegiate math = pure win!
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I REALLY want a Springfield Armory M1A. I don't know which version would be best for me, but I know I want a wooden stock, none of that tacti-cool SOCOM junk. However, if anyone else has any other nice rifles to suggest, I am open to it.
What is the standard procedure for purchasing a weapon? The trail from permit to purchase, and are there any tricks I need to know?
I skimmed through most of this thread so I assume someone covered you need a "permit" to own a firearm here. Like Spikes asked, what is the gun for? The SOCOMs are far from junk. If you don't like the quad rail on the SOCOM II get the SOCOM 16. Plus there is always the Scout models. You may also want to rethink that woodstock as well. You really don't want you $1500-2000 rifile beat up looking. Now if you want the most bang for your buck and not an AR guy, I suggest the AK-47. And the ammo sure as hell isnt a $1 a round.
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AK's are nice, SKS's are too. Ruger used to make (still maybe?) the Mini-30 chambered for 7.62x39.
If you do go this route, remember that various countries produced higher and lower quality weapons.
Any AK guys out there to elaborate?
<S> Melvin
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But lots of better looking women, which in collegiate math = pure win!
Very true! Except that I'm taken, and unable to partake in the famed collegiate activities.