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General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Perrine on October 20, 2010, 10:43:33 PM

Title: Love it or hate it
Post by: Perrine on October 20, 2010, 10:43:33 PM
But Pearl Harbor still has the best WWII dogfight scenes and its epicness won't be replicated for some time :devil

Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Guppy35 on October 20, 2010, 11:53:14 PM
But Pearl Harbor still has the best WWII dogfight scenes and its epicness won't be replicated for some time :devil



And if you believe that....
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Tupac on October 20, 2010, 11:59:44 PM
(http://wzus1.ask.com/r?t=a&d=us&s=a&c=p&ti=1&ai=30752&l=dis&o=15527&sv=0a5c4251&ip=6389f1dd&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ithaca.edu%2Ffaculty%2Fkgregson%2Ftroll_dolls.jpg)
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: phatzo on October 21, 2010, 12:22:56 AM
no way
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy0723PFzIU&feature=related
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: grizz441 on October 21, 2010, 12:23:22 AM
I do not love it nor hate it.  I thought it was decent. 
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Guppy35 on October 21, 2010, 12:33:48 AM
Scary part is too many people believed it was accurate.  Not even sure where to start on how bad it was.  Doolittle 25s in formation in the ack over Tokyo would be a start I suppose.   Spit to P40 to B25 pilots in one fell swoop too.  Arghhhh.
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: AAJagerX on October 21, 2010, 12:36:58 AM
Ben Affleck can out turn a Zeke with a B-25...  On the deck.  Without spilling his chamomille tea.   :uhoh :bolt:
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Perrine on October 21, 2010, 12:51:20 AM
Scary part is too many people believed it was accurate.  Not even sure where to start on how bad it was.  Doolittle 25s in formation in the ack over Tokyo would be a start I suppose.   Spit to P40 to B25 pilots in one fell swoop too.  Arghhhh.

i thought they used the right spit and 109 for the small skirmishes in the enlgish channel in 1941.

...and what's wrong with the p40?  
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Guppy35 on October 21, 2010, 01:32:51 AM
i thought they used the right spit and 109 for the small skirmishes in the enlgish channel in 1941.

...and what's wrong with the p40?  


There was no US pilot who flew Spits with the RAF, then made it to Pearl Harbor to fly P40s and then managed to join Doolittle and fly B25s on that raid.

If they'd have called it anything but "Pearl Harbor" it wouldn't matter, but the name suggests it's history, and the movie isn't.  Just my opinion of course, but I do believe they could have done it right.
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Ruah on October 21, 2010, 02:43:14 AM
Oh, we are talking about that terrible love romance with a unealistic history that only serves to highlight the anguish of a terribad romance?

yah, that was awful.
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Perrine on October 21, 2010, 03:11:45 AM
Oh, we are talking about that terrible love romance with a unealistic history that only serves to highlight the anguish of a terribad romance?

yah, that was awful.

i'm just talking about the combat scenes minus the fluff and alternate history as guppy described.
the fluff and the alternate history was in the movie to get more $

the take-away for us military buffs is the combat scenes, the rest is for girls
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Charge on October 21, 2010, 05:34:31 AM
And this is in AV exactly why?

-C+
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: caldera on October 21, 2010, 06:05:55 AM
There was no US pilot who flew Spits with the RAF, then made it to Pearl Harbor to fly P40s and then managed to join Doolittle and fly B25s on that raid.


The "Director's Cut" has Ben shoot down Yamamoto and fly escort for the Enola Gay.  :D
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Dichotomy on October 21, 2010, 06:16:40 AM
I thought the English Channel fights were good.

Once I threw on the suspension of disbelief I can enjoy the movie without worry about historical accuracy.  Anybody that believes the Hollyweird is going to do something with historical accuracy needs to lay down the psychotropics.  I come to the forums to find out accurate history from certain players that know what they are talking about. 
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: FLS on October 21, 2010, 07:09:36 AM
But Pearl Harbor still has the best WWII dogfight scenes and its epicness won't be replicated for some time :devil



You haven't seen Dark Blue World.
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Saxman on October 21, 2010, 07:20:54 AM
Pssh.

To put it in perspective, FLYBOYS had better dogfight scenes and a FAR less annoying romantic subplot.
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Flench on October 21, 2010, 08:48:18 AM
Yeah , Like John Wayne movie . See if I can remember it ,( Sands of Iwo Jima )I think it was . Been a long time .
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Liberator on October 21, 2010, 09:48:52 AM
The part that made me scoff most was when he took a P-40 up with his girlfriend in his lap...
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Perrine on October 21, 2010, 01:59:37 PM
Pssh.

To put it in perspective, FLYBOYS had better dogfight scenes and a FAR less annoying romantic subplot.

now that's what I'd like for a ww2 type movie

but for now we just settle with Pearl Harbor as the greatest of all time (minus the fluff and fanservice :joystick:)
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: StokesAk on October 21, 2010, 02:08:10 PM
I have really been waiting for another great WWII movie to come out. I hope it is a bout the air war instead of a spinoff of Saving private ryan.
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: LLogann on October 21, 2010, 02:18:16 PM
The spit/warhawk thing is actually quite believable, although for the most part I believe American volunteers to have flown US planes under the lend/lease agreement.  BUT.... Benny boy was wayyyyyyy too tall to be a fighter pilot, he would have been a buffer by default in the US Army Air Corp.

Ben Affleck can out turn a Zeke with a B-25...  On the deck.  Without spilling his chamomille tea.   :uhoh :bolt:
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Dichotomy on October 21, 2010, 02:25:29 PM
I have really been waiting for another great WWII movie to come out. I hope it is a bout the air war instead of a spinoff of Saving private ryan.

Be nice if Hanks and Speilburg collaborated on that but it would come to fruition 10 years from now.
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Guppy35 on October 21, 2010, 02:50:15 PM
The spit/warhawk thing is actually quite believable, although for the most part I believe American volunteers to have flown US planes under the lend/lease agreement.  BUT.... Benny boy was wayyyyyyy too tall to be a fighter pilot, he would have been a buffer by default in the US Army Air Corp.


What part of the Spit/P40 part was believable?

The only 40 drivers to have any real success at Pearl Harbor were Welch and Taylor.  Their fight sure didn't involve getting Zeros to collide with each other over the airfield :)

Did American pilots fly with the RAF?  Sure.  Not a one got back in the USAAF in time for Pearl Harbor.  Many were accepted into the USAAF afterwards.  Many chose to stay with the RAF/RCAF instead.

Again, no single pilot flew Spits with the RAF, then P40s at Pearl, then B25s with Doolittle.

As for suspending my disbelief.  Again if they'd called it anything but Pearl Harbor, I probably could have.  One of my all time favorite WW2 aviation movies is a wartime film called "Air Force" about the mythical B17D  "Mary Ann.  She happens to fly into the attack at Pearl Harbor.  Drops in on Wake Island for a look and then makes it into the Philippines where she is shot down, rebuilt and leads the attack to sink a big Japanese attack fleet shooting down tens of Japanese fighters along the way.

Not an ounce of truth in the entire movie, but they also didn't name it to imply it was tied to any certain event as the makers of "Pearl Harbor" did.  Very easy to suspend my disbelief and enjoy the airplanes in "Air Force".
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Wmaker on October 21, 2010, 03:00:12 PM
You haven't seen Dark Blue World.

...or Tora Tora Tora...or Battle Of Britain. :)
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Dichotomy on October 21, 2010, 03:12:09 PM
Ya Guppy but we all know how easily amused I am :D
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: LLogann on October 21, 2010, 03:49:56 PM
The part where Affleck can't fit in either of them silly....................

What part of the Spit/P40 part was believable?

It is still, a movie
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Oldman731 on October 21, 2010, 04:09:02 PM
The only 40 drivers to have any real success at Pearl Harbor were Welch and Taylor.  Their fight sure didn't involve getting Zeros to collide with each other over the airfield

I thought the part where they shot Zekes down with pump shotguns was pretty authentic.

My very favorite line, though, was when the hero yelled "cover me!" as he ran across the airfield.  Right.  Cover him.

- oldman
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Baggy on October 21, 2010, 04:47:48 PM
Didn't Dark Blue World use footage from the Battle of Britain?
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Muzzy on October 21, 2010, 10:48:15 PM
We could go on and on about the inaccuracies of the movie.  I could have bought the basic plot (suspension of disbelief and all that) but failing to live up to the historical material is just plain bad hollywood. They could have learned so much about dogfighting simply by upping in the MA a couple of times.

My pet peeves (feel free to add your own)

1. P40's can't outrun zeroes (okay, they were on the deck, fine) but out turn them?  What IJN pilot worth his salt would fall for a lame trick like that?
2. The really loud, stupid radio chatter during the bombing mission.
3. Cuba Gooding Jr's scenes with the CO of the West Virginia when the latter is dying. Sorry...in 1941 mess attendants didn't talk to Captains like they were their children.
4. Wasting resources upping 25's off of a supercarrier when CGI would have been more realistic.
5. Same deal with the destroyers getting hit in the harbor.
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Perrine on October 21, 2010, 11:34:41 PM
My pet peeves (feel free to add your own)

1. P40's can't outrun zeroes (okay, they were on the deck, fine) but out turn them?  What IJN pilot worth his salt would fall for a lame trick like that?

Let's take fatigue into account ( at least in the hollyweird world)

The IJN fighter pilots may be tired of the long journey to get to pearl harbor.  Because of this IJN pilots can't pull higher g manuver while benny & co were emotionally pumped up ready to pull high Gs and shoot some planes. 
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Guppy35 on October 22, 2010, 12:13:41 AM
Let's take fatigue into account ( at least in the hollyweird world)

The IJN fighter pilots may be tired of the long journey to get to pearl harbor.  Because of this IJN pilots can't pull higher g manuver while benny & co were emotionally pumped up ready to pull high Gs and shoot some planes. 

Now I know you've got to be kidding.
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: DEECONX on October 22, 2010, 06:37:17 AM
I think the reason I didnt mind it was because I already knew not to expect historical accuracies. Just me anyways...
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Saxman on October 22, 2010, 07:25:50 AM
My dad LOATHED the movie, from the major details of modern FFGs being bombed, to the absurdity that Aflec's character could beat a telegram to Pearl Harbor.

Oh, and he would have been arrested had he ACTUALLY shown up in uniform to the train station to leave for Britain.
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Mister Fork on October 22, 2010, 01:09:42 PM
There was no US pilot who flew Spits with the RAF, then made it to Pearl Harbor to fly P40s and then managed to join Doolittle and fly B25s on that raid.

If they'd have called it anything but "Pearl Harbor" it wouldn't matter, but the name suggests it's history, and the movie isn't.  Just my opinion of course, but I do believe they could have done it right.
I think you need to read about the pilot who wrote High Flight.  He was an American who went through Canada to fight in the RCAF in England... in a... Spitfire
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Oldman731 on October 22, 2010, 06:21:45 PM
I think you need to read about the pilot who wrote High Flight.  He was an American who went through Canada to fight in the RCAF in England... in a... Spitfire

Yah, but he died before he could get to Pearl Harbor.

- oldman (hey, read the full statement!)
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Guppy35 on October 22, 2010, 09:18:28 PM
I think you need to read about the pilot who wrote High Flight.  He was an American who went through Canada to fight in the RCAF in England... in a... Spitfire

I can name plenty of Yanks in the RAF, but as Oldman pointed out, that's not what I said.  There was no Yank in the RAF who flew Spits, then flew P40s at Pearl Harbor, then flew 25s with Doolittle.  In fact there was no pilot who did two of the three.
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: BaldEagl on October 23, 2010, 08:50:46 PM
It's hard to get through all the romantic stuff in that movie to get to the battle scenes.  I think they were tryng to draw a female audience, didn't get it and lost the males too.

I'll take Flyboys, The Blue Max, The Battle of Brittan, Midway or Tora Tora Tora anyday over that pathetic film.
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Rino on October 25, 2010, 07:17:22 PM
i'm just talking about the combat scenes minus the fluff and alternate history as guppy described.
the fluff and the alternate history was in the movie to get more $

the take-away for us military buffs is the combat scenes, the rest is for girls

     I really enjoyed the tower scene.  First 3 zeros dead on my P-40's six take 5 minutes trying
to shoot me down.  Then instead of using my 6 fifty caliber machine guns, I count on a couple
guys in a tower to wax the bad guy with shotguns and a BAR.  That doesn't include the 3 zeros
running into one another trying to match my uber flying skills.

     I'm also not sure if they had E model P-40s at Pearl, but I could let that slide.  After all, they got
everything else bang on. :rofl  I do wonder why they didn't use those guided missile destroyers
to knock down the raid though ala Final Countdown.  The suspension of disbelief was a trifle hard
to maintain after seeing the lovely CGI Battleship Row parked next to 1980s era naval vessels.
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Muzzy on October 26, 2010, 05:55:40 PM
Seriously, "How to Train Your Dragon" has more realistic ACM.
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: SWkiljoy on October 27, 2010, 10:40:01 AM
Pssh.

To put it in perspective, FLYBOYS had better dogfight scenes and a FAR less annoying romantic subplot.
+1 great movie as well
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: tmetal on October 27, 2010, 05:14:35 PM
The best part of that movie was when the leading lady walked up to the hangar in that red dress, the rest of it was kinda meh as long as you went into the movie understading it was a hollywood action flick and not a documentary.
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Saxman on October 27, 2010, 06:04:38 PM
+1 great movie as well

Where did I say "Great Movie?" It was merely "OK." Maybe in comparison to Pearl Harbor it may have been great, but you guys are obviously missing the sarcastic point of my post.
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Bino on October 27, 2010, 09:22:07 PM
Seriously, "How to Train Your Dragon" has more realistic ACM.

Muzzy!!!  Now I have milk sprayed all over the monitor and keyboard, and dribbling out of my nose!     :lol

But seriously, folks, "Pearl Harbor" is just *so* bad on *so* many levels: totally unbelievable plot, soap-opera acting, phony air combat, CGI continuity glitches, etc., etc.
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: morfiend on October 28, 2010, 05:02:52 PM
There was only and I mean only 1 good thing about that movie,Kate Beckinsale,however I prefer her costume in Underworld!


    :salute
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: StokesAk on October 28, 2010, 05:41:11 PM
I think the reason I didnt mind it was because I already knew not to expect historical accuracies. Just me anyways...

Same here, made for a good movie.

My favorite part is when they were getting checks even before they got off the runway. Reminds me of most of my MA sorties.
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Perrine on October 29, 2010, 12:59:05 AM
I didn't question this back in 2001... did A6Ms actually strafed on civilians during the attack... or it's just another Hollywood fanservice?
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: SectorNine50 on October 29, 2010, 03:10:43 AM
Cuba Gooding Jr. is absolutely terrible in this movie.  Not that he's been fantastic anywhere else, but my goodness he was just... embarassing in Pearl Harbor...

I also liked how they removed all the guns from the B25's... But apparently one didn't and was able to strafe the entire Japanese squad before they killed the pilots of the downed B25.

Just...

Wtf man... :headscratch:
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Saxman on October 29, 2010, 07:33:32 AM
I didn't question this back in 2001... did A6Ms actually strafed on civilians during the attack... or it's just another Hollywood fanservice?

I saw a photo from after the attack of several civilians in a car that were killed when the vehicle was shot up. Whether or not this was deliberate or a case of mistaken identity (pilot thought it was a military vehicle) I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: tmetal on October 29, 2010, 08:59:47 AM
There were also reports of the Japanese shooting up weird things like youth baseball fields during the attack because their intel suggested these might be clever camo for fuel and ammo depots. During his youth, my father lived on one of the airforce bases on the island during the late 60's and he can recall patched bullet holes in the home his familly was staying in.  Even if they had no intention to attack civilians I'm sure in all the chaos of the attack it wouldn't be hard to make that kind of mistake.
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Muzzy on October 29, 2010, 09:12:00 AM
There were 63 civilian casualties, mostly from AA shells falling on Honolulu. The Japanese were mainly flying over military installations, but any vehicle moving near an airfield or the harbor would have been considered fair game for them, and it wouldn't be a surprise to me if they took shots at what they would have seen as "targets of opportunity".  Given the relatively low numbers of civilian deaths, again mostly from friendly fire, it's doubtful that the IJN pilots went out on a shooting spree.

Also, any building actually on an air force base would probably have been shot up as well, even if it was civilian housing.

The incident of the Japanese pilot trying to shoo the kids on the baseball diamond away from the fight actually happened.
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Ping on October 30, 2010, 12:02:26 PM
I saw a photo from after the attack of several civilians in a car that were killed when the vehicle was shot up. Whether or not this was deliberate or a case of mistaken identity (pilot thought it was a military vehicle) I'm not sure.
That I beleive was from AA coming down.
Remember the pics of that also.
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: SectorNine50 on November 01, 2010, 02:57:16 PM
That I beleive was from AA coming down.
Remember the pics of that also.

I heard it was an enemy A/C as well, but who knows.

Could you imagine how bad your luck would have to be to get hit by stray bullets falling after being shot into the air while driving 40 down a road? :confused:
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: Shuffler on November 01, 2010, 03:44:56 PM
I thought the movie sucked.
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: CAP1 on November 01, 2010, 03:51:24 PM
Scary part is too many people believed it was accurate.  Not even sure where to start on how bad it was.  Doolittle 25s in formation in the ack over Tokyo would be a start I suppose.   Spit to P40 to B25 pilots in one fell swoop too.  Arghhhh.

don't forget them playing chicken with the zeeks with their props nearly scraping the blacktop....... :noid
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: oakranger on November 01, 2010, 03:55:28 PM
Battle of Britain far better.  Than there this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czAwsE7yLBc&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czAwsE7yLBc&feature=related)
Title: Re: Love it or hate it
Post by: 68ZooM on November 01, 2010, 04:04:21 PM
the scene where ace pilut "ben awflak" and his BF "Oh my gosh Josh brolin"  were dogfighting them 6 zeke's watching them thrash around in the cockpits and jerking there sticks all around was one of the funniest dogfights Ive seen, the movie was terrible