Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: AKP on October 21, 2010, 04:58:39 PM
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This is just an attempt to start a little discussion on how involved in the squad specific orders a CiC is when issuing orders to his or her team for an FSO frame.
Currently... we have two very different styles. There are:
1) CiC's that assign what ordinance and fuel load to take. What route to take to target. What altitude to fly at. What time you are expected to hit the target at... in addition to assigning planes and target packages.
And...
2) CiC's that simply plan which squads will take which planes, what role they will be in, and what target they will hit, or defend.
This is not meant to be an attempt to say that one method is better than the other... or to come up with some sort of "standard orders package"... because I believe part of what makes FSO enjoyable each week is the variations that each CiC puts into it. It is simply to see which squads prefer which methods... and their reasons why.
I can look at this from two different views. As a CiC... I have used both of the above methods. My first time in the Big Chair I assigned specific routes, suggested altitudes, as well as fuel and ordinance loadouts. If you remember, that was the controversial frame where I assigned "pathfinder squads" to knock out radar towers on the way to major targets so that blind spots in the radar could be opened up. It was the first time we had dot dar in the tower only open to us.
But... for my second time as CiC, I took the approach of assigning planes, roles, and targets... but leaving the details of how and when to get there up to the squad CO's. I did however include ordinance and fuel suggestions, but did not attempt to dictate it. My feeling was that the squad CO's know best to complete their mission... all I need do I make sure all the bases were covered.
Now... as a member of a squad receiving orders from CiC... I know that our squad prefers the second method. We enjoy planning the best route to target, how best to hit it, what altitude to come in at, etc etc. We enjoy coordinating with the other squads in our strike or defense group.
So... back to my original question. Which method do you and your squad prefer... and why? Or is it a little of both?
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<< Prefer number 2 as well.
I like to give co's some creative space within the orders.
However, you are gonna have 2-5 squads that read the orders 5 minutes b4 event. This will hurt you as a cic as they ask ?'s they should already know if they did a lil homework..
If the Co's read the objectives for every frame, then they also read the orders (the whole orders), thats all you can ask as a cic.
Not gonna go into, no-shows.... , Messed up maps.., ect.. :salute
Would be nice to trust all the co's with alt, fuel,loadouts, and time-to target.
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This is why i love FSO so much. It is an opportunity to get a little taste of multi-unit operations. Known in some circles as tactical and or strategic concentrations in space and or time. It's yummy ain't it. You guys, through your experiences, have also chosen the format preferred by the USA since WWII. Allow your subordinate
commanders the widest possible latitude to accomplish their assigned mission. After all, they are the ones who
must see it done. I think you have chosen wisely. :salute
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That's a hard call to make between the two. Option 1 reflects a true Command Style whereas Option 2 reflects a "laissez-faire" environment. Each has advantages and disadvantages. They both have to ensure everyone "gets their turn at bat".
Ideally, Option 1 would be the best method to truly simulate combat missions.
However, I would have to choose Option 2 for the simple reason that this being a game. The Option 2 method would give more flexibility to cover all the scenarios that happen to a CIC including:
1) Squad No-Show
2) Squad below minimum attendance
3) Squad(s) not reading orders
4) Squad(s) reading orders and not following assigned orders
5) Squad(s) reading orders and confused by orders resulting in Objective not accomplished
If every squad participating would agree on creating another FSO Rule (We always enjoy when another comes into place). The new FSO rule stated something along the lines. "All squads are mandated to follow the assigned CIC's orders to the letter. This is to simulate real life combat mission planning and combat mission execution. This environment will gauge how successful or non-successful the CIC plans are."
Of course, nothing like this would ever come into fruition. Option 1 would have to rely on one simple fact. Of the 400 plus players in the FSO, not every single player has had any real life military training to understand the need for a "Chain of Command" and "Obey the last order you were given".
For example, as a CIC few times now in FSO, I would be considered a General for playing purposes. As a military officer with one or more stars on my shoulders, my battle plan would be carried out to the letter by my subordinate commanders. Sample orders:
Strike Mission Able:
Escort : LCA (P-51B)
Strike : Swampdragons (B-24)
Forward Sweep : Rolling Thunder (P-51D)
To: CO, LCA, DakOne
From: CIC, Allied Command
You’re to lift from A23 with P-51B’s for escort of Swampdragons. You’re to take 100% fuel and Drop Tanks for long distance mission. You’re to maintain a minimum of 5000 feet over the bombers and no more than 5K in front, rear or flanks. A forward sweep will be designated to another group ahead of your group to drag the enemy CAP over the target, A56.
Priority 1) Keep enemy fighters away from bombers till bomb release
Priority 2) Ensure bombers are clear from any enemy trailers on bomber egress route
Priority 3) Communicate with other squad commanders on tactical information
Secondary Mission: After Priority 1 and 2 have been fulfilled, Priority 3 has been discussed and consensus on situation allows, you’re released to hunt down and destroy all remaining enemy fighters.
To: CO, Swampdragons, Jackraid
From: CIC, Allied Command
You’re to lift from A23 with B-24’s with formations enabled. You’re to take 50% fuel and 500 lb bombs. Climb to 22,000 ft and level off. Follow assigned ingress and egress routes outlined with accompanying maps to and from A54. Drop all hangars on first pass and any strats as possible. Fly 20 miles away from target and return for second pass to destroy any remaining objects. After all ordinance has been expended, RTB for recovery operations. Make sure target is hit before T+60.
Priority 1) Destroy all high valued targets
Priority 2) Destroy all remaining targets
Priority 3) Communicate with other squad commanders on tactical information
To: CO, Rolling Thunder, nikomon
From: CIC, Allied Command
You’re to lift from A23 with P-51D’s for forward fighter sweep over A54. You’re to take 75% fuel and fuel tanks. Climb to 25,000 ft and level off. Engage any defending CAP over target as least 10 minutes before arrival of bombers and drag away from target.
Priority 1) Drag enemy fighters to lower altitudes than bombers
Priority 2) Destroy as many enemy fighters as possible
Priority 3) Communicate with other squad commanders on tactical information
Secondary Mission: When bombers are clear on final egress route, join with escorting P-51’s and augment Search and Destroy Mission.
Notice that I didn’t assign a Strike Commander or an Escort Commander. I gave detailed orders to all 3 squads with primary missions and secondary missions for 2 squads.
This type of format for CIC orders works only if certain conditions are met
1) Squads agree to abide by them
2) Assigned CIC has the free time to do them
3) Assigned CIC has the means to create detailed maps
4) Assigned CIC has orders mailed no later than Wednesday
5) Squad CO’s actually read, disperse to squad the information, and practice the mission
Personally, I would prefer the Option 1 method. It makes a good sound simulation and determines who was the better planner between opposing CIC’s. Both planning and execution could be measured with a baseline from the orders written in stone.
Option 2 just allows for one thing. The wildcard factor. Strike groups heading west of target rather than south of target. Aircraft flying NOE instead of 25,000 ft. Execution would be varied from written orders so no accurate way to determine if results would be greater or lesser than Option 1 method.
Trying to get 400 plus players to agree on Option 1 would be well after HTC incorporates the B-29 Super Fortress and then still be another 2 weeks. Looks like Option 2 will win by default.
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Wow Kuya, That took me 2 drinks to read.... :salute
(http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg244/diane_guedea/PATRON.jpg)
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There was a time I really enjoyed seeing very complicated orders. Things like time tables, "Xsquad will be over target T+40". Now I really like it simple.
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Wow Kuya, That took me 2 drinks to read.... :salute
(http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg244/diane_guedea/PATRON.jpg)
2 drinks? I was aiming for the whole bottle. :rofl
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Good topic AKP. As the 325th VFG planner the best orders are the simple orders. But they also have to be complete orders as well. As far as the level of detail go's that depends upon the scenario the CM's come up with. All missions are risky, the "plan" reduces that risk to a exceptable level for the CIC.
I favor a combination of the two options you highlight and also agree with AKKuya's comments which are very good.
Also some missions like defensive missions aren't difficult to plan. So they can be simply stated. However Strike missions combining different squads conducting different parts of the mission can get complex as timing becomes critical. In those cases the CIC needs to explain very clearly and as simply as possible what that squad is doing and how they fit into the greater mission. To accomplish that task the CIC should use whatever means of media he or she sees fit. In most cases if you do the following your good to go:
Build your Task Organization matrix (the spreedsheets we all now normally see)
The graphics (The map with routes and targets)
A missions task sheet (a short word based document explaining what missions they have along with any coordinating instructions)
Mission planning aside if the squads will coordinate via email prior to the mission start the chances of survival greatly increase. Something every squad should do within 12 hours of receiving the Op Ord. And another reason why it is so important to get the Op Ord's out by Wednesday or earlier.
Good topic.
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Excellent thread. :aok
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I can definitely see where there would be cases when a little extra planning on the CiC's part would be needed... perhaps if timing were critical in hitting one target, and it was key to the success of another strike group hitting theirs. Or in the case of making one base flash in order to make the opponent think the attack is coming from one direction, when it is actually coming from another.
I also think that including planning tools like...
The Ordinance vs Object Hardness Chart (http://home.comcast.net/~vf15satansplaymates/OrdinanceVsObjectHardness.xls)
or
AKDogg's Fuel Calculator (http://www.arabian-knights.org/files/fso/AK_Fuel_Calculator.xls)
...along with the orders package can give CO's some valuable insight on just how to plan their fuel and ordinance load-outs to maximize damage and range.
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Nice post AKP... I could'nt have said it any better myself. Always included in my orders are AKDogg's fuel calculator (with his permission of course).
Everyone that has posted here are destiguished Cic's... :salute
We all have our own way of doing the orders. I just hope some of the new cic's can learn from you guy's. :cheers:
Ps. AKP, we think alike....
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As a CO, I like to be given target, plane, home base. I take pride in planning FSO hours before launch, testing fuel so that we can get as light as possible, and testing enemy theories of where they might be patrolling/entering target area from. Therefore I prefer the second method that AKP explained. No disrespect, but if a CiC gives me complete orders (method 1) and I do not completely agree, I will email him about to see if we could reach some agreement. If he says no, I do as I am ordered. Howeer all CiC's should keep in mind that there are different types of CO's also. The ones that want it easy as possible, "tell me what to do and I'll do it", then you have those like me that wait ALL week (or 3 :mad: ) for FSO and can't wait to put their theory to work.
As a CiC, I give CO's disgretion on as much as possible, even airplanes sometimes. However, Kermit taught me this a long time ago, some CO's and people who participate in FSO are here to have fun and take a break from MA. Those people will fly rides that they are not familiar with so some tips could be helpful. I will, as a CiC, not give complete orders but I will suggest a few things that I might think will work. That way I can account for that CO that reads the orders 5 minutes prior to launch. Even though he is a little behind, i have given a "suggested" plan for him already. I always stress "suggestion" though. I want the Axis CO's to do as they please. If we succeed it was due to a mix of things:
1) Good overall tactical planning by CiC
2) Good thorough planning by individual CO's
3) Great execution from internal squadmembers
perdweeb
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The hardest part is assigning rides. I use a little formula for Frame 2.
Squad A for Frame 1 was perked fighter then Frame 2 would be bomber.
Squad B for Frame 1 was underpowered fighter then Frame 2 would be a perked fighter.
Squad C for Frame 1 was bomber then Frame 2 would be any fighter.
For Frame 3, then looking at each squad rides for Frames 1 and Frame 2 then try the best way to equal them out.
I also use "Share the Wealth" and "Share the Debt". When assigning the perked fighters with max limits, I'll "Share the Wealth" with 2 squads for that ride and secondary fighter for each squad. Same approach for "Share the Debt" for bomber rides between squads with secondary rides in fighters and underpowered fighters with secondary fighter.
There are times that isn't possible due to objectives, aircraft list with max and min, and number of squads plus the commitment levels. I try to make things as even as possible. Every CIC has their approach.
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The hardest part is assigning rides.
I would agree with you there Kuya. It is difficult to balance "what is needed" for the mission, vs. "what is wanted" by the squads. No one likes getting stuck in rides that are outmatched, or being in bombers every frame. But with a wide variation in squad sizes, and with the "min & max" limits, you cant always give them what they want. For the most part, I think the squads understand that.
Thanks for all the good feedback everyone! :aok
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Also agree on this being a nice discussion.
Personally I like detailed orders however, not battle plan survives contact with the enemy. So in truth CiCs and squads need to be flexible to cover situations that arise from actual battle. Like a squad being destroyed before hitting a target. A CiC might make the call that their target is more valuable to hit than another and re-adjust his plans accordingly to change follow up strikes to hit it instead of other targets that were written into his orders.
A battle is fluid thing and sometimes it just forces participants to adapt. Many commanders have lost battles do to treating them as set piece actions and not reacting to events.
I know many CiCs actually will not fly during their frame so that they can concentrate on getting reports on the action, judging how things are going, and the re-prioritizing missions and objectives for his surviving forces as things unfold.
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The whole idea of being the CiC is being the man with the plan for your whole side and that's no small task. It's also no small responsibility to ensure everyone sees a good bit of action so that everyone has a good time--which is the idea. That's job one for whoever is that guy that week. Forming a plan takes a good bit of time. A lot of test flying the missions offline to find the proper timings and fuel loads. At least as far as attack missions go, I'd rather they had more detail than less whether I'm CiC, squad CO or just a pilot. The different roles in the plan need to be explained. The defensive missions are fairly self explanatory most of the time. Keep the bad guys out of this area. They're probably gonna come from this direction--or maybe that direction.
When I'm CiC I form an idea of how I might attack a target and also how my opposite might defend it. I like adding a little misdirection to my attacks in order to draw off the defenders and give the bombers and/or jabos a better chance of success. Not unlike how these missions might have actually worked in RL which is what we're trying to simulate in FSO. Timing is critical tho and you have to have squads that understand what's expected to pull off the plan and you can't explain that in 10 words or less. I've never been a fan of orders that lack imagination. I mean, if it was just a matter of attacking base A and flying directly from base B then we could just stay in the MA as that's happening in every other arena right now. We're supposed to be getting away from that in FSO I think. If you overly simplify the mission it's not really a mission, IMO, so much as a rabble of planes headed over yonder. Again--not my thing. I actually like the whole "strategery" thing. And I love it when a plan comes together. I think somebody said that before. :cool: But sometimes the fog of war rolls in and it all goes to hell. I'm OK with that too as I know it's all part of it. I remember this past spring one of my well thought out attacks was ruined by guys on the other side that just literally stumbled into it. Their CiC was a first timer and pretty much let his squad CO's do their thing. They were way away from anything just wandering easterly too. So either way WILL work I guess LOL.
I like the idea of the separate missions. The bombing, jabo, close escort, detached escort, fighter sweep, etc., are all cogs in the wheel of an attack. Different tools in the attack planner's toolbox for different applications. Helps to understand how they're used and why. Have to understand the limits of the planes allotted to you as well. I like flying all of the different planes in these very different setups too. I might not fly any of these in other than an FSO. You'll have to pry my P-38 from my cold dead hands most nights! :aok But on Friday nights from 11 to 1 eastern I'm glad to fly whatever they put me in. :salute
I'd agree that trying to plug in the rides is the biggest challenge right off the bat. You have to balance requests against what was previously flown against numbers requirements of certain planes against what types you're actually gonna need to assign to achieve the objectives of the frame. And things just won't always fit perfectly but you try your best. It's tough every frame. Having had to do that more than a few times whether here in FSO or as a scenario CiC believe me I know! That's why I've never had a particular hangup insofar as what ride I'm assigned. I've walked a few miles in that guy's shoes! I'm always more interested in what my particular mission is and how I'm gonna make my little corner of the overall plan work than anything else.
Great discussion btw.
Drano
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Nice post Drano and everyone else on this thread that has provided insight into what is needed, what they like to see in the form of a Op Ord and what they do as planners. Always good to see and understand how the rest of you do it. After all I may be opposing you very soon :noid
A great point above that Drano makes and most of us already do but didn't state it is the missions need to be challenging and fun for the majority. And the well thought out and planned Op Ord is the first step in that process. FSO attendance in my opinion has been increasing over the past few years because of the well thought out plans and command and control of the good CIC's. And a good CIC is one that cares and try's :angel: I know our guys get fired up when a great set of orders are published on time. I also know that motovation drops a notch or two when the orders have major holes or lack care in planning from the CIC. I am referring to the "receive the orders late Thursday night" and the mission statement is more of a "get'em boys" kind of plan.
A good post also from GD on the "non flying" CIC. Here's what I have done:
Up in a gas filled aircraft and fly around in a quiet area while I type and chat. If I am needed at the end at least I'm at altitude to help
Up in a gas filled aircraft and fly recon out to the flanks or to areas where I can see the main effort. But I don't get involved in the fight.
Gun in a bomber on a "main effort". Nothing like a view from the nose to see whats going on
Up in a fighter and sit on the runway or fly to a vacant airfield and land. Good for typing and chatting and you can up if your needed at the end.
Also as the planner of the 325th, CUTT and Swoop73 are still the CO and XO of the squad. By my taking the task of CIC the squad stays in tack with its internal leadership for any missions I task my own squad with. When I am the CIC I never fly with them. In my opinion theres no way you can command and control your side if your involved in any part of the mission itself.
And I just cant say enough about this dancing banana :banana: :lol
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I think one of the major points we can all draw from this... is that being a CiC isnt a "one trick pony". We are all going to have to be flexible in the type of orders, and level of detail we put into them depending on factors such as:
- The objectives we are given by the CM's
- The squads assigned to our side for that frame
- The aircraft we have to use.
Just like Viper, I have been serving as CiC for VF-15, which allows the primary flight leaders to continue to serve in that capacity on FSO nights. But, someone else may want a turn sometime too. It is my hope, that when they do get to "Sit in the Big Chair", they can draw from the past experience that ALL of us share from serving as CiC... and that goes for anyone who takes on the job of being a Frame CiC.
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One of things I think some CiCs overlook is what to do after their first strike missions are over with. Some just let the squads figure out what to do next after they finish their first task (i.e. go back and hit the base again since most times the target is never 100% destroyed).
The most successful CiCs usually stay actively engaged in direct the battle for the whole frame and retask their surviving forces as needed. Such as Squad X reports 60% of target destroyed. Okay Squad X rearm and then hit this target instead. Our force was slaughtered there and no damage. Or survivors of Squad X and Squad Y rearm and then link up with each other 10,10,1 then proceed to hit target 2.
Doing this basically allows the CiC to use his dwindling forces as effectively as possible. Versus the CiCs that basically let things play out on their own and allow each squad decide what to do next after their first flight is done. Squads sometimes don't see the big picture so their choices are based on their little slice of the battle field. For instance going back and hitting their assigned target again not knowing that the CV 4 sectors away is badly damaged and just need a few more bombs to sink.