Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: oakranger on October 22, 2010, 05:45:13 PM
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I going to say "No" on this but want to see if anybody may know more then i do on this. Did the eastern front saw any Ar-234, 262s, 109G-10, 14, K, 190D-9 or Th-152? Being these where mostly used to defend Germany from Allies (U.S., British) bombers in the western front.
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When examining this question you have to remember that by 1945 the "Eastern Front" was close enough to Germany and Austria that Soviet a/c could reach many Luftwaffe bases. Most of the a/c you list were in fact "facing west" vs the USAAF and RAF although the 109G-14 and G-10 were certainly used in the "Eastern Front" JGs.
Simple map but you can see how close the VVS get from Jan-Feb 1945. 200 miles gets you past Berlin in many cases:
http://www.anistor.gr/english/enback/yaltamap3.jpg
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109G-14's performance envelop looks geared for eastern front, so it's safe to say it saw service in the eastern front.
190D-9 saw action against red army, former stuka pilot from the eastern front Hans Rudel flew 190d-9 and shot dow 9 red army fighters.
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When examining this question you have to remember that by 1945 the "Eastern Front" was close enough to Germany and Austria that Soviet a/c could reach many Luftwaffe bases. Most of the a/c you list were in fact "facing west" vs the USAAF and RAF although the 109G-14 and G-10 were certainly used in the "Eastern Front" JGs.
Simple map but you can see how close the VVS get from Jan-Feb 1945. 200 miles gets you past Berlin in many cases:
http://www.anistor.gr/english/enback/yaltamap3.jpg
With all you said i used that to back up my claims. Although, the 109G-10 and 14 i thought may be a possibly in the Eastern front. LOL, can you imagine the Russians, in the I-16, expression when a 262 attacked them.
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109G-14's performance envelop looks geared for eastern front, so it's safe to say it saw service in the eastern front.
190D-9 saw action against red army, former stuka pilot from the eastern front Hans Rudel flew 190d-9 and shot dow 9 red army fighters.
The 190D-9 i really did not think would be in the eastern front. For some reason, i was think that it was assigned to go after the bombers in the western front instead messing with a less threat Russian bombers/fights.
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I thought the D-9 was more of an escort fighter for Me262 bomber destroyers...
I'm sure D-9s tangled with both sides, and even p-51s shot soviet fighters such as La-7 due to mistaken identity (they thought La-7s looked like Fw 190As)
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I going to say "No" on this but want to see if anybody may know more then i do on this. Did the eastern front saw any Ar-234, 262s, 109G-10, 14, K, 190D-9 or Th-152? Being these where mostly used to defend Germany from Allies (U.S., British) bombers in the western front.
Ar234 > no, MTO and ETO
Me109s > most certainly (Hartmann flew a G-10)
Fw190D > yes, at least with IV./JG3
Ta152H > claimed a Russian a/c so......
Me162 > yes, in the ground attack role
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190D-9 saw action against red army, former stuka pilot from the eastern front Hans Rudel flew 190d-9 and shot dow 9 red army fighters.
Not all of Rudel's kills against Soviet planes were in a Dora. He has at least two kills in the Ju 87, one being Soviet ace Lev Shestakov and he has some other kills recorded while flying the FW 190F 8. Also, not all of the planes Rudel shot down were fighters, at least two of them were IL 2s.
ack-ack
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Ar234 > no, MTO and ETO
Me109s > most certainly (Hartmann flew a G-10)
Fw190D > yes, at least with IV./JG3
Ta152H > claimed a Russian a/c so......
Me162 > yes, in the ground attack role
162 in a ground attack role? I find that highly unlikely.
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162 in a ground attack role? I find that highly unlikely.
Oops, fat finger > Me262. Should have been obvious that it was a typo since you didn't ask about the Me162. :rolleyes:
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Oops, fat finger > Me262. Should have been obvious that it was a typo since you didn't ask about the Me162. :rolleyes:
LOL, i was starting to question your facts on 163. However, never heard a 262 assigned in a ground attack role but they where first talked about using them till Hitler said no, or something like that. Interesting though.
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Consider that the Soviets captured and flew Me262s agains the Germans.
The answer is "Yes" to all of the above. At the time (1945) the Soviets were pounding on the door to Berlin as much as the US/GB were.
Only, you're rather foolish to asume they were still flying I-16s in 1945 to see Me262s. They had some of the best performing aircraft in the war in 1945 (La-7, many Yaks, developing their own rocket planes and jets, etc).
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If you want - I can provide you with the dispositions of the various JGs on both fronts, including the aircraft types on hand.
Hermann Graf's last mount was a K-4, Hartmann definitely flew a G-10 up to his 350th kill, although there's strong evidence he was flying a G-14/AM around October of '44 and a K-4 at the end of the war (by Hartmann's own account, so don't shoot the messenger). That being said, no photos of Hartmann's K-4 are known to exist. There's an interesting blog entry from a fellow Luftwaffe researcher that offers a viable explanation... http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2010/06/hartmanns-last-109s.html (http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2010/06/hartmanns-last-109s.html)
The D-9s providing cover for the 262s of JG44 was actually a small group, the Sachsenberg-Schwarm or Papagei Staffel. These were the red-underbelly Doras we often see in the game.
As others have said, by the time Stab/JG301 received their Ta-152s, there really was no Eastern/Western front as far as air operations were concerned. Herr Reschke in a Ta-152 shot down a Tempest and 2 Yak-9s in the days of the war, so....
163s operated from Brandis...D-9s were active on both fronts, 262s were all over as well, and yes, they were used operationally with 234s on the bridge attacks at Remagen. 234s operated in Norway, with aircraft from Einskdo 1/(damn filter) F.A.Gr1 and KG 76 being stationed there....
Pretty amazing to think about it really - many of these aircraft arriving so late in the war and ending up where they did.
J
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LOL, can you imagine the Russians, in the I-16, expression when a 262 attacked them.
In one of his books Steinhoff described a dogfight vs a bunch of soviet fighters, him being in a Me 262. He didn't manage to get any kills though.
Oh, and the days of the I-16 were long gone in 1945 ;)
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LOL, i was starting to question your facts on 163. However, never heard a 262 assigned in a ground attack role but they where first talked about using them till Hitler said no, or something like that. Interesting though.
I didn't mention the 163. :rolleyes:
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109G-14's performance envelop looks geared for eastern front, so it's safe to say it saw service in the eastern front.
190D-9 saw action against red army, former stuka pilot from the eastern front Hans Rudel flew 190d-9 and shot dow 9 red army fighters.
I think folks get this idea that the D9 was in action for a long time when it really wasn't. Seems like October 44 was when the first 30 were assigned to JG26. 7 months of Ops.
That being said, considering where the front lines where, no doubt they ran into Russian birds
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The thing to keep in mind is not to overstate the sortie ratio vs the Russians. Most of the Me 262s and Me 163s as well as the Fw 190D-9s and late model 109s were sortied against the Western Allied bomber streams and Tac Air Forces. Yes they saw action vs the VVS but the Soviets were not the main target of the "high end" LW fighters. From Normandy untill wars end the bulk of the LW faced west and flew in that direction, with the caveats mentioned already in the responses above.
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In one of his books Steinhoff described a dogfight vs a bunch of soviet fighters, him being in a Me 262. He didn't manage to get any kills though.
Oh, and the days of the I-16 were long gone in 1945 ;)
Interesting, did the 262 have any victories in the Eastern front?
If you want - I can provide you with the dispositions of the various JGs on both fronts, including the aircraft types on hand.
Hermann Graf's last mount was a K-4, Hartmann definitely flew a G-10 up to his 350th kill, although there's strong evidence he was flying a G-14/AM around October of '44 and a K-4 at the end of the war (by Hartmann's own account, so don't shoot the messenger). That being said, no photos of Hartmann's K-4 are known to exist. There's an interesting blog entry from a fellow Luftwaffe researcher that offers a viable explanation... http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2010/06/hartmanns-last-109s.html (http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2010/06/hartmanns-last-109s.html)
The D-9s providing cover for the 262s of JG44 was actually a small group, the Sachsenberg-Schwarm or Papagei Staffel. These were the red-underbelly Doras we often see in the game.
As others have said, by the time Stab/JG301 received their Ta-152s, there really was no Eastern/Western front as far as air operations were concerned. Herr Reschke in a Ta-152 shot down a Tempest and 2 Yak-9s in the days of the war, so....
163s operated from Brandis...D-9s were active on both fronts, 262s were all over as well, and yes, they were used operationally with 234s on the bridge attacks at Remagen. 234s operated in Norway, with aircraft from Einskdo 1/(damn filter) F.A.Gr1 and KG 76 being stationed there....
Pretty amazing to think about it really - many of these aircraft arriving so late in the war and ending up where they did.
J
That for clearing that up. So basically most late war German AC where seeing action in the Eastern, Western Southern and Northern front. Minus the 163 that cover western front.
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I seem to recall at least one Soviet ace claimed a 262 kill.
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I seem to recall at least one Soviet ace claimed a 262 kill.
Be interesting to find out.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Nikitovich_Kozhedub
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K-4's did see action on the eastern fron with JG-3, but it should also be noted that most units were only partially equiped with K-4's, many units were flying G-14's and G-10's, aswell as K-4's
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There are several accounts of Luftwaffe pilots preferring the G-10 to the K-4 and the G-14.
The G-14 actually entered service before the G-10 and if I remember correctly (its late and I'm not looking it up) it was the fastest of the lot.
J
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G-10 was sort of a Frankenstein 109, had the engine of a K-4, but allot of G-10's had different parts, Ie. some had the older shorter ruder and vertical stab, while some had the new Taller ones,
some had a short tailwheel while others had the long one, the G-10 was meant to do the same thing as the K-4, Standardize the 109, but like the G-6 and G-14, it also did not succeed
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anyone here knows what other types of 109s did Erich Hartmann use?
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G-6,G-14, Possible F-4 and G-2
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Imagine trying to wrestle our Doras in a slow circle above a 262 base! The pilots would have went nuts and demanded Antons. Of course all 190A starting with A6 had a redesigned wing, was lighter and just over a foot longer span, meant to keep it competitive with the turn radius and rate of the A5, since they had heavier cowl guns and slightly increased armor
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*edit* (not sure if our A8 or F8 has this lengthened, lighter wing of the real A6-A9 models, best guess would be No)
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Imagine trying to wrestle our Doras in a slow circle above a 262 base! The pilots would have went nuts and demanded Antons. Of course all 190A starting with A6 had a redesigned wing, was lighter and just over a foot longer span, meant to keep it competitive with the turn radius and rate of the A5, since they had heavier cowl guns and slightly increased armor
The A-6 wing had the same wing span as the A-3.
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There are several accounts of Luftwaffe pilots preferring the G-10 to the K-4 and the G-14.
The G-14 actually entered service before the G-10 and if I remember correctly (its late and I'm not looking it up) it was the fastest of the lot.
J
The K-4 (mid Oct '44) entered service slightly before the G-10.
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The K-4 (mid Oct '44) entered service slightly before the G-10.
Right, but I was comparing G-10 to G-14 :D
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Just have to love Milo blaming people for not reading his typos right... :lol
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Right, but I was comparing G-10 to G-14 :D
Yes, and I was just adding the K-4 to the time line. :)
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Just have to love Milo blaming people for not reading his typos right... :lol
What are you blathering about now?
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Right, but I was comparing G-10 to G-14 :D
if you want to compair the G-10 to G-14 you have to look at the K-4 aswell, where the K-4 was a newly built plane, the G-10 was a conversion of older 109's to bring them up to the standards of late war russian and american planes, the G-14 had losts of variants, but the G-10, being a mixture of parts had even more, the G-10 was almost Identical to the K-4 aside from the DF loop being closer to the front, and some minor differences, it had the dame DB 605 D engine, and the wings were almost Identical, so unless we are talking about a G-10 that was unlucky enough to have the old short vertical stab and rudder, the G-10 and K-4 would pretty much fly the same, so it isnt to crazy to sub the K-4 for a G-10 when compairing to the G-14
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"The German counter-offensive in the Ardennes in December 1944 diverted them from the gathering storm in the east. In spite of attempts by some of the higher command, Hitler refused to believe that the Russians were capable of launching another massive offensive. German intelligence predicted a large offensive in the middle of January 1945. The offensive was expected to be a drive by the Russians to break German will and ability to carry on the war. The attack was to take the straightest route to Berlin. This was through Warsaw and the 1st Byelorussian Front under Marshal Zukov, and the1st Ukrainian Front under Marshal Koniev were to lead the assault. Their two fronts alone comprised 2.2 million men, 33,500 guns, 7,000 tanks and assault guns, and 5,000 aircraft.
Their mission was the destruction of Army Group A under Field Marshal Harpe.and the conquest of Poland. Harpe’s Army Group comprised 400,000 men, 1136 tanks and assault guns with 270 aircraft. Their aircraft stretched from the Vistula north of Warsaw to the Carpathian Mountains. To the north of Army Group A was Army Group Center command by Field Marshal Reinhardt with 380,000 men, 700 tanks and assault guns and 515 aircraft.
The attack began on January 12. The odds were distinctly against the Germans and the initial attacks punched holes in their lines all over the front. The Russians broke through along 300 miles of front to a depth of 60 to 100 miles, shattering Army Group A. The first phase ended on January 17, 1945 with the fall of Warsaw.
The weather initially was bad with low clouds, fog and poor visibility grounding aircraft on both sides. When this changed the massive number of VVS aircraft launched horrific attacks on the retreating German armies. Faced with the effects of this and the continuing offensive the German high command had no choice but to commit virtually all of the Home Defence Jagdgeschewader which had been operating against the American 8th Air Force to the battle in the east. Several Geschwader of the Luftwaffe day fighter force were transferred to the Eastern Front. These included JG 1, JG 3, JG 4, JG 6, JG 11 and JG 77. This was to more than double the available aircraft from 800 to 1,800. These reinforcements included 1,500 Bf 109s and Fw-190s many of which were the newer models that had seen little use on the eastern front. These reinforcements are to set the stage for some of the largest air battles of the Eastern Front."
http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/200910_redStormKruppSteel/redStorm2009.htm
Scenarios, Where History Comes Alive.
But for the actual battle described above and recreated for Scenarios about all the fighters you discussed except Me262s were deployed against the Soviets.
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if you want to compair the G-10 to G-14 you have to look at the K-4 aswell, where the K-4 was a newly built plane, the G-10 was a conversion of older 109's to bring them up to the standards of late war russian and american planes, the G-14 had losts of variants, but the G-10, being a mixture of parts had even more, the G-10 was almost Identical to the K-4 aside from the DF loop being closer to the front, and some minor differences, it had the dame DB 605 D engine, and the wings were almost Identical, so unless we are talking about a G-10 that was unlucky enough to have the old short vertical stab and rudder, the G-10 and K-4 would pretty much fly the same, so it isnt to crazy to sub the K-4 for a G-10 when compairing to the G-14
That is an old tale. Almost ALL G-10s were new construction.
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okay, let me clear it up, I shoudlnt have used "conversion" to describe the G-10, it was a mix match of parts, so it was never standardized, and failed at doing so just like the G-14