Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: STEELE on October 24, 2010, 01:34:43 AM

Title: K4 cowl guns
Post by: STEELE on October 24, 2010, 01:34:43 AM: Most of the info I read on the 109K4 lists the cowl guns as being MG151/15 mm cannons, rather than the 12.7 bullets that our model has. Anyone else ever come across this info? (Posted from BBerry, sorry no links for evidence)
Title: Re: K4 cowl guns
Post by: Karnak on October 24, 2010, 03:00:59 AM: It is an error copied from an author who made an error when looking at primary source data. More modern books that have gone back to primary source data rather than trusting older books have corrected this.

In short, the cowl of a Bf109 does not have the room to mount MG151/15 cannons in it.
Title: Re: K4 cowl guns
Post by: MiloMorai on October 24, 2010, 04:54:37 AM: That author was William Green in his 1957 book 'Famous Fighters of the Second World War Vol. 1'. It has been copy and pasted over and over again. What is surprising is that many many people still believe it despite being shown that is not so.
He also states that the K-4 could be equipped with either a MK108, or a MK103. :x
Title: Re: K4 cowl guns
Post by: STEELE on October 24, 2010, 09:52:44 PM: Aha! TYVM
Title: Re: K4 cowl guns
Post by: Imowface on October 25, 2010, 12:21:33 AM: The K-4 has cowl guns? :devil
Title: Re: K4 cowl guns
Post by: Larry on October 27, 2010, 07:02:22 AM: Quote from: STEELE on October 24, 2010, 01:34:43 AM
Most of the info I read on the 109K4 lists the cowl guns as being MG151/15 mm cannons, rather than the 12.7 bullets that our model has. Anyone else ever come across this info? (Posted from BBerry, sorry no links for evidence)

13mm not 12.7.
Title: Re: K4 cowl guns
Post by: SWkiljoy on October 27, 2010, 10:35:03 AM: Quote from: Larry on October 27, 2010, 07:02:22 AM
13mm not 12.7.
Got to it before i did :aok
Title: Re: K4 cowl guns
Post by: Big Rat on October 27, 2010, 11:19:07 AM: Quote from: MiloMorai on October 24, 2010, 04:54:37 AM
He also states that the K-4 could be equipped with either a MK108, or a MK103. :x

boy the MK103 would definitly put it in perk status :lol

:salute
BigRat
Title: Re: K4 cowl guns
Post by: Karnak on October 27, 2010, 12:01:03 PM: Quote from: Big Rat on October 27, 2010, 11:19:07 AM
boy the MK103 would definitly put it in perk status :lol

:salute
BigRat
It would also require a legless pilot as there isn't any room for the cannon breach unless it is placed where the pilot's legs would normally be.
Title: Re: K4 cowl guns
Post by: FLOTSOM on October 27, 2010, 12:09:19 PM: Quote from: Karnak on October 27, 2010, 12:01:03 PM
It would also require a legless pilot as there isn't any room for the cannon breach unless it is placed where the pilot's legs would normally be.

Legs?!?

Ve Doon NEAD NO STENKEN Legs!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: K4 cowl guns
Post by: MiloMorai on October 27, 2010, 04:34:13 PM: Quote from: Karnak on October 27, 2010, 12:01:03 PM
It would also require a legless pilot as there isn't any room for the cannon breach unless it is placed where the pilot's legs would normally be.

The MK108 protruded into the cockpit space. That is the bulge one sees between the rudder pedals.

(http://www.preservedaxisaircraft.com/Luftwaffe/messerschmitt/images/Bf109G2%20Laatzen%20cockpit.jpg)

(http://img114.exs.cx/img114/6453/mk103plano2fg.jpg)

(http://www.luft46.com/images/mk108-3.gif)
Title: Re: K4 cowl guns
Post by: FLOTSOM on October 27, 2010, 05:16:01 PM: Quote from: MiloMorai on October 27, 2010, 04:34:13 PM
The MK108 protruded into the cockpit space. That is the bulge one sees between the rudder pedals.

(http://www.preservedaxisaircraft.com/Luftwaffe/messerschmitt/images/Bf109G2%20Laatzen%20cockpit.jpg)

(http://img114.exs.cx/img114/6453/mk103plano2fg.jpg)

(http://www.luft46.com/images/mk108-3.gif)

that is awesome. where did you get the diagrams? is that an actual 109 cockpit and not a rebuild or mock-up? i.e. is it a picture from a museum/historical society plane?
Title: Re: K4 cowl guns
Post by: Lusche on October 27, 2010, 05:24:43 PM: Quote from: FLOTSOM on October 27, 2010, 05:16:01 PM
is that an actual 109 cockpit and not a rebuild or mock-up? i.e. is it a picture from a museum/historical society plane?

That's a real 109G-2 sitting in the Luftfahrtmuseum Hannover-Laartzen (http://www.luftfahrtmuseum-hannover.de/messerschmitt)
Title: Re: K4 cowl guns
Post by: FLOTSOM on October 27, 2010, 05:27:04 PM: did this plane ever see action?

and can i get that page in english?!?!?!!!!!!
Title: Re: K4 cowl guns
Post by: Lusche on October 27, 2010, 06:05:02 PM: Quote from: FLOTSOM on October 27, 2010, 05:27:04 PM
did this plane ever see action?

and can i get that page in english?!?!?!!!!!!

Yes it did.

There is not much info about the specific plane on this page, mostly general remarks about the 109 (most build fighter plane, bla bla bla).
Only one sentence is about this particular ride:

Quote
Unsere Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-2 wurde im Jahre 1988 aus dem Mittelmeer geborgen und hervorragend restauriert.
"Our Messerschmitt Bf 109-G-2 was salvaged from the Mediterranean Sea in 1988 and has been excellently restored "
Title: Re: K4 cowl guns
Post by: Karnak on October 27, 2010, 06:08:54 PM: Quote from: MiloMorai on October 27, 2010, 04:34:13 PM
The MK108 protruded into the cockpit space. That is the bulge one sees between the rudder pedals.

(http://www.preservedaxisaircraft.com/Luftwaffe/messerschmitt/images/Bf109G2%20Laatzen%20cockpit.jpg)

(http://img114.exs.cx/img114/6453/mk103plano2fg.jpg)

(http://www.luft46.com/images/mk108-3.gif)
Yup, now extend that even further for an MK103....
Title: Re: K4 cowl guns
Post by: MiloMorai on October 27, 2010, 07:06:21 PM: Quote from: Karnak on October 27, 2010, 06:08:54 PM
Yup, now extend that even further for an MK103....

The pilot would still have legs. What he wouldn't have is the stick for elevator and ailerons. The MK103 would extend about 4.5" further to the rear.

FLOTSOM, do at properties check on the diagrams.