Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Sundiver on October 25, 2010, 10:51:27 AM
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Just wondering if anyone has ever seen estimates or actual stats on how many people were injured or killed by falling drop tanks in WWII? I mean it'd just be rude to have one of those fall through your bedroom from 25k when you were in the middle of something, yanno? ;)
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:rofl I was watching old P51 video last night showing 51s dropping their tanks before engaging and wondered the same exact thing.
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I've often wondered about the debris falling around fights.
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I know in vietnam drop tanks, and even their jettisonable racks were used as weapons to keep approaching bad guys away from our downed pilots
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To expand on what BJ said, I found this pic of DTs from possibly a B52 where the locals made boats out of them :lol There wasn't any mention on deaths from them falling though.
(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk121/TheAmish/44b52erft.jpg)
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I'd be surprised if any statistics like that existed but I'm a little curious as well. My guess is that number is relatively low, I figure most of the tanks fell in the countryside, if they were dropped over urban centers then chances are most the population would have been in some sort of bomb shelter.
I would image the risk of falling shrapnel from exploding AAA shells would be a bigger hazard.
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http://www.theairraid.com/
(...)The Los Angeles Times headlines blared "L.A. Area Raided", and "Jap Planes Peril Santa Monica". The 77th street police station reported a downed aircraft near 180th street and Vermont. By the light of day what could be put together is that at approximately 3:10 am anti aircraft batteries that had been stationed around Southern California's defense plants began firing their 12.8 - pound explosive charges and kept this up for fifty minutes, eventually launching over 1,400 of them. The curious thing was that not a single bomb had been dropped on the city, and not a single scrap of any aircraft was ever recovered. In fact, the only casualties were caused by the falling shrapnel and unexploded ordinance that rained in a 40 mile arc from Santa Monica to Long Beach.
Falling debris from AA-Fire should not be underestimated. I think I read once about one of those big air-sea battles (iirc Midway) that over 30 US sailors where killed by falling ackack-debris that came from their own aa-guns.
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Helmets anyone? One of those, "Oh" moments as a kid:
Watching a WWII movie with Dad. A guy gets killed with a head shot. I ask Dad why do soldiers wear helmets, since they cant stop a bullet. He explained it's to protect you from all the stuff coming down on you, like rocks and debris, shrapnel, even spent shell casings.
Don't think they'd protect you from a drop tank though. lol
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To expand on what BJ said, I found this pic of DTs from possibly a B52 where the locals made boats out of them :lol There wasn't any mention on deaths from them falling though.
(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk121/TheAmish/44b52erft.jpg)
ingenious :aok
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i read somewhere that the drop tanks in WW2 were made from paper. dont know if its fact or not
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http://www.theairraid.com/
Falling debris from AA-Fire should not be underestimated. I think I read once about one of those big air-sea battles (iirc Midway) that over 30 US sailors where killed by falling ackack-debris that came from their own aa-guns.
I read in some book that during the attack on Pearl Harbor, AA shells and shrapnel was showering the nearby city
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i read somewhere that the drop tanks in WW2 were made from paper. dont know if its fact or not
Some were, they didn't want the germans to use the aluminum. (I ThinkI read that anyway)
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Some were, they didn't want the germans to use the aluminum. (I ThinkI read that anyway)
i remember reading that aswell
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The Mosquito initially had aluminium drops, later versions of the 50-gal tanks, and so far as I know all of the later 100- and 200-gal tanks were made of paper.
The BBC WW2 archive website had a story in there by a fellow who's father had developed the things, will see if I can find it.
Have also seen guncam film of a pair of Mustangs strafing a loco - lead Mustang attempted to drop its tanks onto the line ahead of the loco, film from the trailing aircraft showed them splashing just short.
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i read somewhere that the drop tanks in WW2 were made from paper. dont know if its fact or not
From the BBC WW2 People's War website/archive:
"THE WAR IN THE LIVING ROOMby Slowbutsure
You are browsing in:
Archive List > Childhood and Evacuation
Contributed by Slowbutsure
Location of story: Wembley, Middlesex
Background to story: Civilian
Article ID: A6639140
Contributed on: 03 November 2005
Like many children born in London in the late 30’s and early 40’s I grew up with no understanding of the danger we were in. On nights when bombs were being dropped I felt completely safe with Mummy, Granny and the new baby snuggled in the Anderson shelter. On quiet nights in my lonely bedroom when the nightlight turned the shadows into monsters I was often terrified.
I also had misconceptions about the neighbourhood. I thought the bomb shelters on grass verges outside the houses were the norm and meant as resting places for tramps, they smelled of urine and I wasn’t allowed near them — perhaps the tramps were Germans. I thought the bunkers in the public golf course where we flew the kite on Sundays were just more bomb craters and didn’t understand why they were not filled in. I thought the camouflage covering the nearby Hoover building was a kind of hairnet for architecture that held it together after bomb damage. I thought barrage balloons were natural phenomena, like whales in the sky. I had a book called BIPPO THE BABY BLIMP and was slightly disappointed that there were only adult blimps over Wembley — perhaps the babies were kept somewhere safe, so they Germans wouldn’t hurt them. I thought there was a real place called BEFORE THE WAR and that germs was a shortened version of Germans - coughing and sneezing without a hanky held to your face meant they would get you.
As I grew older and restrictions on food eased there were disappointments. When bananas arrived I ate six and was so sick that I’ve never liked them since. I was disgusted by my first taste of butter but surprised and enchanted by Lyons ice-cream. It took me years to enjoy a boiled egg as Mummy made such a drama out of giving up to me her one egg per week assigned to each person. I felt the sacrifice too great and truly believed it caused her great anguish. I could hardly bear to eat it and have never liked the idea of sacrifice ever since.
Overshadowing these minor personal concerns was my father’s work.
It suddenly took on the seriousness and urgency which meant his fingers were almost black with tobacco and he no longer had time to play with me and the baby. I learned years afterwards when watching a BBC television history programme about World War II that it was in 1942. The De Havilland Aircraft Company needed to find a way to extend the flying range of the Mosquito. Mosquito aeroplanes were used to fly deep into Germany to take pictures of armaments and troop movements. The jettison tanks they used were made of metal. There was not enough material or skilled labour to manufacture these and an alternative had to be found.
Daddy was already working on radar for the War Office and was given the extra task of finding a solution to the tank shortage. Both his brothers were in the RAF. Alexander flew a Spitfire and Gideon worked on bomb disposal. Daddy joined the RAF too and was learning to be an observer. He was unhappy at becoming what he called, self-deprecatingly, a Back Room Boy and perhaps for that reason worked himself almost to death — feeling that what he was doing was somehow inferior to being in the RAF.
This feeling was compounded as our neighbours all had husbands, sons, sisters, uncles and aunts in the forces. Other adults too old for active service were Home Guards. They thought Daddy was a wide boy, a black marketer. He was often at home, not shirking, as they thought but wrestling with the problem of making a tank strong enough to hold fuel and light enough to be carried by a wooden aeroplane and big enough to hold enough fuel.
He made the tanks of paper and glue. Paper has a higher strength to weight capacity than steel. Daddy was inspired to use this material after reading CLIPPER OF THE CLOUDS by H G Wells. The airship in the book was made of a paper-like substance and gave him the idea for his tanks. After the war he developed the idea even further and manufactured a paper honeycomb for use in the aircraft industry. The honeycomb was made by using a silk screen process Daddy had originally made luminous signs with for use in the Blackout. He laminated sheets of paper together and then expanded them and set them with heat. Dufaylite — as it was called - was used in manufacturing radar scanners and also had commercial applications in the housing and packaging industries when the war was over.
The prototype tank was made on top of the Anderson shelter in our living room. The smell of the experimental glues he used to coat the layers of paper with which he covered the ‘former’ filled the house. I joined in the work by pasting bits of my Mickey Mouse comic between the layers as they were left to dry between coats. The smell of Urea-Formaldehyde evokes for me the same feelings as the madeleines did for Proust.
The history book says ‘Experimental work on the paper tank was completed, proto-typed, flown, approved and production started within a few weeks’. It gives no idea of the sleepless nights, the bleeding finger nails, the aching back and the final triumph of a workable prototype. It also omits the ceaseless journeys up and down the country, teaching people in their kitchens and garages to make the tanks. When somebody realised that the train journeys were difficult and irregular Daddy was given extra supplies of petrol — these enabled him to travel all over the country and started the myth in our street that he was a spiv, making money on the Black Market. Petrol was rationed and nobody could understand why Daddy had such an abundant supply — the work he was doing was secret and nobody in our neighbourhood had any idea that he was a Boffin and not a crook. The total war output was 102,000 tanks. By the end of it Daddy was exhausted and grief stricken by the death of his brother as he flew his Spitfire back from a mission on D-Day.
At the Victory Day celebrations it was hard to enjoy the brass bands, the parades, the cheering and general jubilation — as usual we were out of step with everybody else.
© Copyright of content contributed to this Archive rests with the author. Find out how you can use this."
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Kid 1: Look a dogfight.
Kid 2: Whats that flying towards us?
Kid 1: A plane?
*Smash*
Kid 1: BOBBY NO!!!!
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Just wondering if anyone has ever seen estimates or actual stats on how many people were injured or killed by falling drop tanks in WWII? I mean it'd just be rude to have one of those fall through your bedroom from 25k when you were in the middle of something, yanno? ;)
I will have that question in my head for years.
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Kid 1: Look a dogfight.
Kid 2: Whats that flying towards us?
Kid 1: A plane?
*Smash*
Kid 1: BOBBY NO!!!!
Made me chuckle. Would have been funnier if you used Billy instead.
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Wonder what the average hit/miss ratio was... Wonder where all those extra bullets went...
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haha oh well, i'm good with jokes that go like that with kid 1 and kid 2 kind of deal, this one sucked in my eyes tho
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Wonder what the average hit/miss ratio was... Wonder where all those extra bullets went...
They disappeared just like the do in our game...where else do you think HTC got the information for disappearing bullets from.
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To expand on what BJ said, I found this pic of DTs from possibly a B52 where the locals made boats out of them :lol There wasn't any mention on deaths from them falling though.
(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk121/TheAmish/44b52erft.jpg)
Hahaha I love it!!! :rofl
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We had a couple of Phantom pilots who served in RVN who were still flying in the early 80s.
One guy named Guttenrichenheimenberger <or something like that...we just called him Major
G+13 :D> told a neat story about attacking boats with an F4 incountry. Apparently he got all
of them but one but ran out of ordnance. He decided to drop a wingtank on it just for giggles.
The guy in the boat had just seen all his buddies get wiped out and then the jet comes back
and drops what looks like the biggest bomb he's ever seen at HIM! G+13 said he wasn't even close,
but the guy in the boat bailed and the boat continued to sail on down the river. :rofl
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There were probably a whole bunch of bombs falling with the fuel tanks (during WWII that is), and I don't think people on the receiving end cared what exactly it was. Would be interesting to find out though.
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To expand on what BJ said, I found this pic of DTs from possibly a B52 where the locals made boats out of them :lol There wasn't any mention on deaths from them falling though.
(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk121/TheAmish/44b52erft.jpg)
I do not think those tanks were dropped... Think about it a 100-200 lb Tank (without fuel) falls say 10,000 feet, I do not think there would be much left to make a boat out of, the tanks in the picture are from surplus..
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i read somewhere that the drop tanks in WW2 were made from paper. dont know if its fact or not
Some were, some weren't. The drop tanks for the P-38 were turned into race cars after the war.
ack-ack
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Some were, some weren't. The drop tanks for the P-38 were turned into race cars after the war.
ack-ack
Really? I'd love to see some pictures!
.. Not saying I don't believe you or anything, I just want to see what they'd have looked like :D
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Where did all the 0.5 bullets from the B17/24s land?
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Really? I'd love to see some pictures!
.. Not saying I don't believe you or anything, I just want to see what they'd have looked like :D
http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z15325/Tom-Beatty-Belly-Tank-Lakester.aspx (http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z15325/Tom-Beatty-Belly-Tank-Lakester.aspx)
http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2009/02/23/bellytanker-from-the-burbs/ (http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2009/02/23/bellytanker-from-the-burbs/)
Random pics:
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/170/486067131_1672122dbc.jpg)
(http://blog.makezine.com/belly%20tanker%20resized.jpg)
wrongway
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http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z15325/Tom-Beatty-Belly-Tank-Lakester.aspx (http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z15325/Tom-Beatty-Belly-Tank-Lakester.aspx)
http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2009/02/23/bellytanker-from-the-burbs/ (http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2009/02/23/bellytanker-from-the-burbs/)
Random pics:
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/170/486067131_1672122dbc.jpg)
(http://blog.makezine.com/belly%20tanker%20resized.jpg)
wrongway
:O
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Talk about recycling! :D
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http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z15325/Tom-Beatty-Belly-Tank-Lakester.aspx (http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z15325/Tom-Beatty-Belly-Tank-Lakester.aspx)
http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2009/02/23/bellytanker-from-the-burbs/ (http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2009/02/23/bellytanker-from-the-burbs/)
Random pics:
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/170/486067131_1672122dbc.jpg)
(http://blog.makezine.com/belly%20tanker%20resized.jpg)
wrongway
Ok now thats just awesome!!
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A few more link's
Paper Drop Tanks:
http://home.earthlink.net/~charlesfelton/id19.html
http://www.cebudanderson.com/droptanks.htm
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Just wondering if anyone has ever seen estimates or actual stats on how many people were injured or killed by falling drop tanks in WWII? I mean it'd just be rude to have one of those fall through your bedroom from 25k when you were in the middle of something, yanno? ;)
........where do you think the idea of Napalm came from? ;)
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Some were, some weren't. The drop tanks for the P-38 were turned into race cars after the war.
ack-ack
The most famous was called "Alex's Egg", the So Cal Speed Shop car.
http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/48038_hot_rod_magazine_history/index.html (http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/48038_hot_rod_magazine_history/index.html)
(http://image.hotrod.com/f/featuredvehicles/9546429+pinline_medium/p112891_image_large.jpg)
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This is an old thread I found on a google search of the same subject. It is from 2010.
On the first page of the thread towards the bottom is wonderful article written by the son of the guy who developed paper drop tanks during in London during WW2.
I thought they were all aluminum.
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http://www.theairraid.com/
Falling debris from AA-Fire should not be underestimated. I think I read once about one of those big air-sea battles (iirc Midway) that over 30 US sailors where killed by falling ackack-debris that came from their own aa-guns.
I was going to bring that up. Those rounds don't just evaporate.
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In WW2, in the overall scheme of things, drop tanks were nothing. Millions of people were killed in various gruesome ways. drop tanks wouldn't even have registered.
Besides the odds of one hitting anyone was pretty slim. As it happens I was at an airshow once when a helicopter emergency door fell off right into the crowd. It missed everyone although a Polish guy had to some fancy leaping!
It's a big sky out there.
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It's a big sky out there.
Game of odds. The probability is tiny, but you repeat the dice roll millions of times. In a large air battle there is so much crap falling out of the sky - drop tanks, stray bullets, empty shells, pieces of planes, ack ack shrapnel, small change... etc.
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Game of odds. The probability is tiny, but you repeat the dice roll millions of times. In a large air battle there is so much crap falling out of the sky - drop tanks, stray bullets, empty shells, pieces of planes, ack ack shrapnel, small change... etc.
People....... :angel: In fact many casualties were caused on the ground by shrapnel from AA fire in any city that was being raided.
It would be surprising if no one was ever killed by a falling drop tank at some point.
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Have to remember that drop tanks were usually dropped for emergency purposes. I believe the fighter escorts had orders to drop their external tanks only if engaged.
On the other hand aluminum was a desired metal and the enemy may have preferred to receive them.
Another factor is pilots as a general rule would drop external tanks over the safest area when possible. Generally, civilians wouldn't be targeted.
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The skyraider guys in viet nam were told to keep them as often as possible because they were in short supply.
Dad liked having a bit more metal between his body and the enemy and they often had tanks with 5 or more patches.