Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Lovin_Lightning on October 28, 2010, 09:07:25 PM
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Hey there!
I am trying to learn to fly the P38-L and I heard somewhere that Booming and Zooming is a good tactic for this plane.
My primary competition is the N1K2 and the A6M2. Does BnZ work well against these fast turning planes?
Would someone be kind enough to either direct me to a thread that deals with this (I couldn't find one myself) or inundate me with a wall of text explaining the finer points of BnZing and how to execute them?
Thanks in advance!
Lightning
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OH i can so see this getting really ugly really fast!!!!!!!
IN
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I'm not sure why your posting this Flotsom,this is help and training and the OP is asking a legitimate question.
To answer the question somewhat,yes BnZ or boom and zoom tactics would work well against "turny" type planes.
LL,if you check my signature,there a link to the trainers site,many of your question can be answered there and if not feel free to ask away in this forum.
:salute
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I'm not sure why your posting this Flotsom,this is help and training and the OP is asking a legitimate question.
To answer the question somewhat,yes BnZ or boom and zoom tactics would work well against "turny" type planes.
LL,if you check my signature,there a link to the trainers site,many of your question can be answered there and if not feel free to ask away in this forum.
:salute
oh Morph without a doubt it is an absolutley legitimate question that deserves solid and informative answers from one such as you who posses the skill and knowledge to teach the OP correctly.
but you know as well as i that when ever anyone asks about the proper way to use the 38 (any model) or how to B&Z properly the thread will quickly turn into a trash talking insult fest.
maybe it wont, but you know the odds are in my favor on this one.
i hope he learns and learns well, i leave that up to you, but the trolls will be pounding this thread and his name into the ground come tomorrow.
Good Luck Lightning, happy hunting!
Morph, ill see you in the air! <S>
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(http://vmf251-buccaneers.net/images/Training/BNZOblique.png)
One approach to BnZ, in this case using the vertical to "turn with" a better-turning opponent.
Separation distance is the key. You don't want to make a pass and then run out to 3-5k. Keep TIGHT, extending no further than 1500 yards or so, and keep the separation in the vertical. This keeps pressure on the target and allows you to wear down his E, while making your passes harder to evade.
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Get in contact with Soulyss if you can. He's been teaching me a great deal about 38 tactics, although I am by no means proficient yet.
For reading materials, check this link:
http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_024a.html
It has some really good information on BnZ tactics, although it might be a bit hard to visualize some of the maneuvers.
I'm finding the best place to practice (if you don't mind getting shot down a lot) is the Dueling Arena. It's easier to find furballs to zoom in on, and the atmosphere is (usually) more relaxed. Expect to die often though.
A couple of tips
1) make sure you can use your views properly. This is critical in all kinds of flying, but it's a lot easier to lose sight of your target during vertical maneuvers.
2) Practice your gunnery. You'll be making a lot of quick passes and getting both trailing (shots at the target from behind) and deflection (shots at an angle) and you need to develop good aim and reflexes. Deflection shots are particularly difficult, but there's nothing sweeter than watching an enemy plane cut across your nose in mint condition one second and come out the other end in pieces the next. :D
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OH i can so see this getting really ugly really fast!!!!!!!
IN
Why?
ack-ack
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I would point you to the 479th's film archive but it seems their website is no longer up. The best thing you can do is watch films and study them. Most of the 'top' p38 sticks fly to an engagement and will BnZ/E-fight as long as they can. The great thing about the p38 is once you loose your E-advantage you can mix it up with it's excellent flaps.
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I would also add, on the first pass, see what side the opponent breaks to. then on the second pass, roll into that direction ahead of time, 9 times out of 10, the opponent will turn the same direction in which case you can get a crossing shot.
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Why?
ack-ack
Ditto :huh
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Thanks guys!
I realized that my primary problem was that I was extending WAY too far out. No wonder I ALWAYS had the plane on my tail when I went to wing-over or immelman.
The comment on the turning is good since my favorite shot to take is a crossing shot. I'll have to get some practice in on that maneuver.
Messiah, after you lose energy and you drop your flaps to turn with someone, how long can you sustain the turn before you turn stall?
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Lovin Lightning,
One of the best things you can do is get with a trainer in the TA, and practice with you in a 38 and them in a plane of your choice. I'd recommend Soulyss or Delirium since they both prefer the 38's (don't know why :headscratch:). Practice your tactics against them, they can tell you what you are doing wrong and right, and give you pointers for the 38. Nothing beats stick time for training.
:salute
BigRat
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Thanks guys!
I realized that my primary problem was that I was extending WAY too far out. No wonder I ALWAYS had the plane on my tail when I went to wing-over or immelman.
The comment on the turning is good since my favorite shot to take is a crossing shot. I'll have to get some practice in on that maneuver.
Messiah, after you lose energy and you drop your flaps to turn with someone, how long can you sustain the turn before you turn stall?
You ideally want to be making a lot of vertical turns/maneuvers as the p38 can actually hang until 0 mph and beyond that. You can essentially sustain a flat turn forever with full flaps but should be using the p38's great vertical authority and lack of torque to e-fight.
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I would point you to the 479th's film archive but it seems their website is no longer up. The best thing you can do is watch films and study them. Most of the 'top' p38 sticks fly to an engagement and will BnZ/E-fight as long as they can. The great thing about the p38 is once you loose your E-advantage you can mix it up with it's excellent flaps.
Think it finally came down when Murdr left and I'm too lazy and don't feel like bringing it back up.
ack-ack
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I can give you a 1 on 1 work session on BnZ and stuff
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Thanks for the offer!
Unfortunate twist, I've been playing LAN only because its free :).
Once I subscribe I'll contact you Yenny and if you're still up for a little teaching I'll take advantage of it.
Lightning
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i shall now publically apologize to the OP and eat my words!
Lightning,
due to my previous observations of the nature and behavior of many of the participants in these threads, (that behavior being to instantly pounce up threads posted by those with names that are subject to abuse, or threads regarding planes that many in the game don't understand how to use and fear to meet in the air) i was feeling very certain that before this thread made a complete page that a 38 hater would jump in, spout of at the mouth in some derogatory anti-38 manner and trigger an argument that would inevitably lead to this thread being locked.
in my anticipation of this event taking place i trolled your thread with an improper and unwarranted "IN" remark.
i do here apologize for my trolling, to both you Lightning, and to all of the others who have read this thread and either commented (in a completely helpful and encouraging manner) or chosen to remain silent and not to throw their standard argument starting insults at the OP or the topic under discussion. I was wrong to assume the actions of others would be derogatory and to be a smart arse in a thread that was undeserving of my comment.
:salute to you all,
Happy Hunting in the cartoon airways!
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Wow
Gracious apology and it was accepted.
Lightning
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Let's not confuse BnZ with E-Fighting as, in my opinion, they're different animals. I hope the following doesn't hijack this thread.
BnZ is really a series of very short engagements by a plane with far superior energy over another plane or planes. The attacker "booms" in from above at a high rate of speed (relative his target), shoots very quickly at a hopefully unwary or otherwise engaged target and then "zooms" back up rebuilding his energy advantage for another pass. The engagement might be only a few seconds really as the time spent in effective guns range is short due to the high speed involved. The idea is to go in fast, hit hard and get out. The "zoom" part might involve a fairly long extension whether is be up or away or both. This technique is largely ineffective vs a single pilot that sees it coming as it's easily ducked using a well timed turn. The much faster plane likely won't be able to follow and will have to break off his attack and zoom away. It becomes a "lather, rinse, repeat" sort of thing. Quite boring. This would absolutely be the technique of choice tho in a 1 vs many environment where locking on to one target's tail might put you into a bad position vs the other NME in the area. Better to stay fast and out of their guns range, zoom in--possibly picking a guy off here or there--while in time other friendlies might arrive in the area.
Energy fighting is much different. Energy fighting lacks the long extension part of BnZ. Here you gauge your E state versus your target's E state taking into account your plane's zooming ability and climbing ability versus the other guy's plane or planes. The idea is to manage your energy and get the other guy to blow his by following you in a generally upwards direction. The trick here is being able to identify the other guy's energy state. It's hard to do and if you guess wrong--you're dead. You want to start with a height or speed advantage over your target. It need not be excessive tho. You want to entice your target into this type of engagement. Make him want to follow you. Keep him close but below you. A turn fight can evolve into an energy fight if for example your plane can climb much better than your target's can. Get his nose turned up to a point he can't follow and you've now done a good job of managing his energy. Now reverse and kill him as he wallows on the edge of a stall beneath you. That's the general idea. At the least if you've maintained your energy advantage you're "safe" from being killed which is almost as good as getting the kill. Live to fight another day. Find another target and kill him. Can't do that from the tower.
Remember, there are differences with a plane's verticle performance. Don't confuse climbing ability with zooming ability. Climb rate has to do with the plane's power to weight ratio and wing design. Zoom is a product of forward momentum coupled with mass. That whole object in motion will tend to stay in motion until it's acted upon by an opposing force (s). In our case--that's gravity and drag. A plane like a Zero is an excellent climber but as it's very lightly constructed, lacks the weight to zoom well. A P-47, for example doesn't climb well but it's heavy and zooms like pretty much nothing else once it gets up a head of steam.
Now regarding the P-38. Good choice by the way. I've settled on that one myself. I'm generally of the energy fighting tribe too and I find it excels there. The P-38s combine a good but not spectacular climb rate with good but not great speed with excellent turn rates in both directions (due to the counter rotating props) if you get the hang of the flaps. So if things go bad you can still turn well with most but not all planes. They zoom very, very well. Reason being they're both aerodynamically clean and have a lot of mass because of the two engines. However, the mass and cleanliness both giveth and taketh away. While great for heading up in a zoom you really have to watch it heading downhill as it builds up speed quick and will compress. It gets worse at higher alts in thinner air. This is a problem with BnZ as your controls will get sluggish as you speed up and you might not be able to make corrections with your guns quickly. At worst you'll end up below your target before you can correct and now you have to get out of dodge. So have your elevator trim control handy when heading downhill in the P-38. Because of this I'd pick another ride if you were looking to purely BnZ. Think about the FWs or one of the Jugs or even a Pony. Very fast, great guns, great high speed control. Better tool for that job.
Hope I didn't go on too long for ya. :D
Good luck