Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Perrine on October 31, 2010, 09:22:02 PM
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Pioneer SX-A6-J for $250?
This one is 60 watts per channel stereo receiver
(http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/StaticFiles/PUSA/Images/SX-A6-J_FRONT_med.jpg)
and here's the speakers that I'm thinking about getting...
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/HomeEntertainment/Speakers/Home+Theater+Speakers/ci.SP-BS21-LR.Kuro
or this
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/HomeEntertainment/Speakers/Home+Theater+Speakers/ci.SP-BS41-LR.Kuro
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Can't say much about the amp, most likely a fine amp for that price.
The speakers then again is a different story. Pioneer is not well known as a speaker producer and those speakers are probably so called oem speakers made for 2 dollars at a subcontractor. Yes they literally produce them for 2 bucks, I've visited a factory that does so.
I would look for shelf speakers from the likes of B&W, Klipsch, Infinity, Dali etc. Often second hand quality speakers are way better purchase than new cheap ones.
The speakers define the end quality of your sound - you can have a million dollar amp and your system will sound totally crap with 80 dollar speakers, mark my words. Invest at least the same price to speakers as you do to the amp. MINIMUM. I would invest double or more.
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The speakers then again is a different story. Pioneer is not well known as a speaker producer and those speakers are probably so called oem speakers made for 2 dollars at a subcontractor. Yes they literally produce them for 2 bucks, I've visited a factory that does so.
What's intriguing with the 'budget' speakers (above) is that it's designed by Andrew Jones. He is (currently) Pioneer's top designer, and the man responsible for the flagship designs from Pioneer and TAD (which are outrageously expensive BTW...think $60,000/pr expensive).
Andrew Jones posted in the thread, describing goals/challenges associated with such a strict design budget.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=19310769&postcount=158
Original thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1278774
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Pioneer used to be well known for stereos and speakers.
Many years back........
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What's intriguing with the 'budget' speakers (above) is that it's designed by Andrew Jones. He is (currently) Pioneer's top designer, and the man responsible for the flagship designs from Pioneer and TAD (which are outrageously expensive BTW...think $60,000/pr expensive).
Andrew Jones posted in the thread, describing goals/challenges associated with such a strict design budget.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=19310769&postcount=158
Original thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1278774
Heh for 86 bucks it's 84 dollars licensing cost for the use of AJ name and 2 dollars manufacturing. :)
Don't be fooled about him designing 60k speakers. They're probably not highly rated in their price range anyway. Secondly would you think your Prius is any better as a car if you knew the same designer was involved in designing the F1 Toyota race car? No.
You can't get anything but cheapest excuse of a box for 86 bucks. Even for 860 bucks you're going to be in low-mid range. For 8600 bucks the speaker is starting to match the sound quality of the 250 dollar amplifier. Well, yet having 10-100x the distortion and 10-100x variance in frequency response (especially room response) I was surprised AJ didn't mention directivity at all and it's crucial in boxed speaker design.
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Unfortunately it's very hard to tell how good a piece of A/V gear is going to be by looking at the specs. The numbers can be generated in different ways and w/out knowing how they measured don't mean much.
Generally speaking in a amplifier/receiver you want to see a power rated with all channels being driven. Inexpensive/cheap amps will have power rating in the 100's of watts but it's only with a single channel under load, during actually playback the number is much lower. Ideally you also want to see what the power is rated at under a lower impedance setting which is measured in ohms (Ω).
Ohms are the amount of electrical resistance that the amp has to work against to operate the speakers, most are rated at 8 ohms (the real number fluctuates during playback) which is sort of considered "standard". A good amplifier can handle a lower impedance and will often say so in the spec sheet. What you want to see is something like "50W: 8Ω both channel driven - 75W: 4Ω both channel driven" a lower impedance is harder for the amplifier to maintain current. If the number into a lower impedance is lower then you know the amp is already going all out doesn't have the power reserve to handle the lower load, it doesn't have the headroom to go anywhere. Another good sign is weight, good power supplies needed to deliver enough to the speakers have some weight to them, and I would shy away from really light amps (of course it could also just mean that the manufacturer stuck a metal plate in the bottom instead).
Ultimately the only real way to know what you're getting is to find a situation where you can audition the gear first and let your ears be the judge. Failing that you can fall back on reviews from reputable magazines/sources.
I don't have any first hand experience with Pioneer, they used to make some really good gear 20-30 years ago but as I understand it that's not necessarily the case anymore. Still that may be a good little integrated amp and work just fine for you. Do a little research on that amp before purchase. Personally I probably wouldn't go for the Pioneer speakers, there are a lot of good bookshelf style speakers out there at reasonable prices. Some good brands have been mentioned already like B&W, I would also add Monitor Audio, Polk Audio, etc. I own a set of speakers from a Canadian company called "Energy" (a division of Audio Products International, part of the Klipsch Group) and I think they sound pretty good for the money.
I found some listings on eBay;
http://electronics.shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=Energy+C100&_sacat=293 (http://electronics.shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=Energy+C100&_sacat=293)
Shop around, do some research & try to listen to as much as you can, your ears can tell the difference even if you can't quantify what you're hearing.
A friend and former co-worker of mine put together a website and blog that while meant for the A/V professional also does a good job of explaining a lot of the terminology and the how's and why's things work the way they do.
Ed's AV Handbook (http://www.edsavhandbook.com/HdBkChpPg.htmll)
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60 watts per channel not much.
<S> Oz
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60 watts per channel not much.
<S> Oz
60 watts is fine depending on what you're trying to do with it. As I mentioned above the real question is 60 watts measured how? I could post one amp rated at 50 watts and it could in theory out perform another rated at 100W under real world conditions.
For instance I would imagine the Pass Labs INT-30A which has a paper spec of 30 watts a channel would absolutely blow away the Pioneer piece here rated at 60 watts if both were tested in lab. I would certainly hope it would at least, it costs around $7100.00 and weights in at around 67lbs. Paper specs can really mean very little in A/V land, that's why if you're serious about Hi-fi the best thing to do is find a retailer in the area who knows their stuff (ie not Best Buy) and audition and listen to it before you buy. Or find a salesmen that you're comfortable with who can make an educated recommendation, or at the very least do a little digging and find some reviews from reputable sources.
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http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,298210.0.html
I started this thread a while back, you might find it helpful. I started out right where you are now and decided to spend a little bit more to get the entire system for a really good price. Made things much easier as you will soon find out.
I ended up with this for 599 plus shipping for a total of 679.
http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=HT-S9100THX&class=Systems&p=i
I am very satisfied with what I purchased compared to all the other things out there, most of all the price was right.
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60 watts is fine depending on what you're trying to do with it. As I mentioned above the real question is 60 watts measured how? I could post one amp rated at 50 watts and it could in theory out perform another rated at 100W under real world conditions.
For instance I would imagine the Pass Labs INT-30A which has a paper spec of 30 watts a channel would absolutely blow away the Pioneer piece here rated at 60 watts if both were tested in lab. I would certainly hope it would at least, it costs around $7100.00 and weights in at around 67lbs. Paper specs can really mean very little in A/V land, that's why if you're serious about Hi-fi the best thing to do is find a retailer in the area who knows their stuff (ie not Best Buy) and audition and listen to it before you buy. Or find a salesmen that you're comfortable with who can make an educated recommendation, or at the very least do a little digging and find some reviews from reputable sources.
:rofl Thats so right Soulyss,years ago I went to look at this amp that a friend was raving about,I asked the "rep" what the amp was rated at. He said"well it's rated 5 watts but lets compare it too this 250 Watt bryston I have setup here". I was blown away at about 1/3 volume this little amp destroyed the bryston at 3/4.
So as Soulyss says it all depends on how the output is measured,one spec I look for is dynamic headroom or headspace,this should be a minium of 3dB and ideally 5 or 6 db that and a good low impedance output are sure signs of a quality unit.
As for those speakers,well I wouldn't spend the money on them and would look for a nice used set if I was on a tight budget.
after checking the link Soul provided,that looks like a reasonable deal there,I'm very familiar with energy speakers and they do indeed has excellent sound,I've been considering purchasing 1 of their soundsound speaker packages.However when I want to listen to music,I'll run that through the castle speakers I've owned for 20 odd years.
I wish I'd kept the set of EV's I once had but they were the size of a refrigerator and I'd likely be totally deaf by now.
:salute
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There's a shop near here that has a pair of these bad boys set up, I got to hear them hooked up to a set of Mark Levinson mono-blocks....it was a revelation in what home audio could sound like.
(http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio//501/medium/Matrix_800_1.jpg)
system here at home aint too shabby but I couldn't listen to it for a few days afterward. :lol