Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: dirtdart on November 10, 2010, 11:33:03 AM
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A couple of questions for the BBS "Experten" a group whose shadowy members I esteem.
Background: Yesterday seemed to be a horrible day for a K4. I would shoot a 17 or 24 from nose to tail seeing MG131 hits the entire length. Yet I noticed no major parts flying off or major explosions from the MK108. The 108 had a ROF of 650 RPM, the 131s 900-1000. In theory for every couple of 131 flashes there should be a tater hit or three in there somewhere. Yes, my aim is good and I understand round drop blah blah blah....
My specific question is, are some weapons (like the 108) effected by lag more than others? When HOd, I would not hear round impacts for sometimes a full second until after the other aircraft passed. So, my connection, or theirs, sucked.
Second question is: Which round / fuse combo are we coded for in the game? If it is the minengeschoss, then is it using the vc70 delay fuse? Could lag cause that to detonate prior to or outside of the aircraft?
Bottom line, I am trying to correlate the damage I have seen in WWII testing / films, with AH. It would seem that a burst of mk108 should consistently destroy the bulk of the planes in AH and lately, that does not seem to be the case.
Please discuss or elaborate.
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How far away were you when you made the shots?
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200ish flying right over the top.
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did you have a DT equiped? here you only fireing the Mg's? because that sounds curious that if you really got it nose to tail that you missed with every tater
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Yeah man I know. Hence the post. It was even worse in dogfights. I would run a stream of tater across the sky and have a 110 slip between the rounds. Made for a long evening.
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You aren't leading enough.
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the tribe has spoken
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You aren't leading enough.
Take the mans advice, he's good!
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...I would shoot a 17 or 24 from nose to tail seeing MG131 hits the entire length. Yet I noticed no major parts flying off or major explosions from the MK108.
Seems like he's leading just fine.
Just saying
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Seems like he's leading just fine.
Just saying
Different guns, different trajectories, unless you're shooting at the convergence, assuming both are the same, while flying straight and level.
Fly in the TA with the LCS and watch the +s.
Why would anyone listen to what Grizz has to say about the 30mm anyway? :noid
wrongway
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Grizz, with all respect for your taterness, they were straight down the long axis of the plane, lead had little to do with it.
My main question / concern is in which round, fuse combo do we have? Would a bad connect define when the moment of impact is vice the physical location of the round?
I frequently hear "the tater is nerfed" or, the put duds into the round count, etc... on range. I would naturally think this is not the case, there is probably a simple explanation, such as lag.
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Seems like he's leading just fine.
Just saying
Mgs fire twice as fast as mk108's. He's hitting with bbs and undershooting with mk108's. I usually chalk the illusion of lacing a target with only bbs as a combination of missing with taters as your gun sight bobs and also undershooting. We could sit here for pages and analyze how it's possible to only hit with bbs, but in a nutshell, it's because your undershooting and ur nose is bobbing when you fire. Lead more first, keep your nose steady second.
/thread
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Why would anyone listen to what Grizz has to say about the 30mm anyway? :noid
wrongway
Yeah, really, who is this Grizz cat??
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Damn simultaneous post...
Thanks for the insight Grizz. Believe me when I say I know when I am missing. I did not get round drop until I went to the TA a while ago and used the lead computing cross hairs.
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Last night TT all the Mastertaters I know were experiencing Failure to Perform tater problems.
I was asked similare questions concerning lag related to effectiveness of Mk 108 rounds. The players I talked to can manage 2-3 kills landed in a K4 on their worst days. In the world of computers and servers a predictable small percentage of customers connected to a system will always be an anomoly in personal performance from the general customer base. Anyone who works as a large coporation support engineer deals with this every day on the phone.
1. Is there a time component to the gunnery equation that internet lag can effect more drasticly with slower traveling rounds? You just need more in a small block of PC to PC communicated time to get something recorded as damge by the enemies computer. Or do both PC's have to agree with each other before damage is accepted?
This is assuming the server is only the master controller of security access accounts and router of environmental physical data changes between objects controled by the the Aces High game installed on each players PC. This accounts for Skuzzy saying over the years that his servers are never under any load due to client connections and processing. Your PC is under all the physical environment load. You cannot play in an arena if you do not accept the automatic download of a new or updated map. But, once in the arena you can play without custom skins enabled because of the default skins being the defaulting standard. So too if a map has a bad texture or object you get discos and AH.exe errors equaly across the customer base.
You guys should read the Readme's forensicly over time.
2. A question spawned by Grizz's observation. The more internet lag, then is a much longer lead, or getting much closer to the target required on bad nights? What constitutes a bad night? The players who talked to me were even having the same problems point blank with the trigger mashed down. 65 taters point blank, percentages are in favor of one tater hitting for every 15 out the spout under 200d.
3. How directly tied to the overall damage recorded by the enemy plane is the hit sprites seen by your computer? Again from question (1.): Or do both PC's have to agree with each other before damage is accepted?
4. Can the damage you see from your monitor as hit sprites never be communicated to the enemies computer due to internet issues or processing congestion at your PC?
5. Because of the destructive ability of a single Mk 108 round, is there a higher feedback proof of airframe contact assigned to the 30mm thus making it that much more sensative to internet lag and/or internal PC processing congestion?
Since release <2.21 Patch3> this is the third thread started concerning just this issue.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,299777.0.html
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,298414.0.html
My bet is Grizz is the CEO of HiTech's favorite single malt distillery. So HiTech gets a truck load every christmas....Sucks to be the rest of us.... :neener:
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excuse the speptic here but 200 out from nose to tail does not make sense. You were magically hovering your plane at 200 distance over the bomber? You didnt lead your target enough.
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1. Is there a time component to the gunnery equation that internet lag can effect more drasticly with slower traveling rounds? You just need more in a small block of PC to PC communicated time to get something recorded as damge by the enemies computer. Or do both PC's have to agree with each other before damage is accepted?
2. A question spawned by Grizz's observation. The more internet lag, then is a much longer lead, or getting much closer to the target required on bad nights? What constitutes a bad night? The players who talked to me were even having the same problems point blank with the trigger mashed down. 65 taters point blank, percentages are in favor of one tater hitting for every 15 out the spout under 200d.
3. How directly tied to the overall damage recorded by the enemy plane is the hit sprites seen by your computer? Again from question (1.): Or do both PC's have to agree with each other before damage is accepted?
4. Can the damage you see from your monitor as hit sprites never be communicated to the enemies computer due to internet issues or processing congestion at your PC?
5. Because of the destructive ability of a single Mk 108 round, is there a higher feedback proof of airframe contact assigned to the 30mm thus making it that much more sensative to internet lag and/or internal PC processing congestion?
No to all your questions. All that matters is what you see on your end. If you see a tater hit, your computer sends that data to HTC's server, which then sends it to your opponents. It is irrelevant what your enemy sees. The only thing that matters in tater connections is the toon physics involved in landing a perfect tater, which I explained in regard to this thread accurately to the tee.
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Take the mans advice, he's good!
(http://www.prezziesplus.co.uk/user/products/lg-humphrey-the-humping-do.jpg)
Down!
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awe you took a picture with you and a B-29 how cute
:D
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In the world of computers and servers a predictable small percentage of customers connected to a system will always be an anomoly in personal performance from the general customer base.
Swahili anyone.....
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By the way, if our real time game info is being sent UDP through the Internet in competition for bandwidth with TCP. This link is simplistic but helps with the question about the tater.
Can the information related to a tater be lost and the other player never know he got hit because the tater has a slower rate of fire and longer travel time window? Unless all time windows are the same and inside of each any combination of projectile types in transit is accounting for the time of each to travel their maximum effective distance.
Still if that time window's UDP packet gets lost or dropped competing with TCP packets...??....and do both clients have to agree it's a damage hit then a hit sprite/boom you dead. Or your local client 100% decides that, sparkles a sprite on your screen and informs the other client boom you dead?
And what happens if that UDP packet informing the dead guy gets lost competeing with TCP? Does UDP by it's nature perform re-sends or does the client send out multiple packets of duplicate information updates with every cycle to counter loss to competition with TCP on the internet. Or has HTC incorporated their own use of RTP as is being used in streaming media?
http://www.isoc.org/INET97/proceedings/F3/F3_1.HTM#s2
It is statisticly expected some people for whatever reasons win lifes lottery in any endevor for what ever reason. In the world of computers and servers a predictable small percentage of customers connected to a system will always be an anomoly in personal performance from the general customer base. And no I'm not saying HiTech or Skuzzy should be able to control the internet path for all connected customers...... :rolleyes:
They would be retired billionairs if they had stumbled onto that one.
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Last night TT all the Mastertaters I know were experiencing Failure to Perform tater problems.
....even the blue pill wasn't working :cry :bolt:
I have seen the following 'strange' behavior with the 30mm lately
1) the plane just disappears, no hit sprite, no explosion, just the message that you killed someone and poof, the plane vanishes with out a trace.
2) the tater hits the plane, fails to display a hit sprite and the wing just come off (or some other critical part)
3) the tater fly's through the plane, no damage, no nothing.
I am willing to believe that #3 is due to poor aim, but in combination with #1 & #2, I'm beginning to suspect that something else is going wrong (I suspect a race condition of some sort, maybe some critical section missing a mutex?).
According to previous posts by HiTech, all the bullet/airplane collision determination is occurring on the attackers computer, then only after a collision is detected is the udp packet sent. The displaying of the hit sprite is due to the collision being detected on the attackers machine, not the udp packet making it to the defenders computer. HiTech, please correct me if my assumption is incorrect. Bustr, I believe the UDP issue is only in the case where the attacker sees a hit sprite but does not see any damage to the plane.
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According to previous posts by HiTech, all the bullet/airplane collision determination is occurring on the attackers computer, then only after a collision is detected is the udp packet sent. The displaying of the hit sprite is due to the collision being detected on the attackers machine, not the udp packet making it to the defenders computer. HiTech, please correct me if my assumption is incorrect. Bustr, I believe the UDP issue is only in the case where the attacker sees a hit sprite but does not see any damage to the plane.
So if there is no HTC propritary coaded CRC taking place along side the UDP stream, the attacker can suffer multiple indemnity if he has a poor Qos connection and routers are dumping his UDP packets. His con has a poor Qos connection and is getting dumped UDP packets. And his machine is behind the curve with background processing conjestion. But then this would be worst case.
So how many from my side UDP "hello my tater tore you a new one" has to be dropped to count as a shot missed at the cons end that he is forever oblivious of?
Tonight Squat was holding the trigger down at point blank with taters and getting nothing. But every 20mm, 50cal and 30cal he threw at cons hit them. Back to my original question about taters in this thread.
It's possible with 10-15% of the country out of work that more people are staying home and surfing the WEB as their primary cheap entertainment these days. This would be the simpelest of answers and rock the boat the least. See I still remember how to put a positive corporate slant on my ending statement.
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Tonight Squat was holding the trigger down at point blank with taters and getting nothing. But every 20mm, 50cal and 30cal he threw at cons hit them. Back to my original question about taters in this thread.
If squat did not see any tater hit sprites, then its more likely the issue I posted. If squat did see hit sprites and the other guy didn't go down, then its the UDP issue you described. Not having access to HTC's code, I can't give a definitive answer so we should wait for an official response from HTC.
For all I know, there could be an issue where the graphics & physics logic are on different threads, and they are at times getting out of sync such that the visual on you monitor does not match where the math mathematical model places the defending plane, but that is pure speculation and I could be way off base.
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Mgs fire twice as fast as mk108's. He's hitting with bbs and undershooting with mk108's. I usually chalk the illusion of lacing a target with only bbs as a combination of missing with taters as your gun sight bobs and also undershooting. We could sit here for pages and analyze how it's possible to only hit with bbs, but in a nutshell, it's because your undershooting and ur nose is bobbing when you fire. Lead more first, keep your nose steady second.
/thread
Did he at any point mention firing mg at all? And why would he have? :rock
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Your rates of fire are slightly wrong sir. the K4 had MG131's no?
Mgs fire twice as fast as mk108's. He's hitting with bbs and undershooting with mk108's. I usually chalk the illusion of lacing a target with only bbs as a combination of missing with taters as your gun sight bobs and also undershooting. We could sit here for pages and analyze how it's possible to only hit with bbs, but in a nutshell, it's because your undershooting and ur nose is bobbing when you fire. Lead more first, keep your nose steady second.
/thread
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Your rates of fire are grotesquely wrong sir. the K4 had MG131's no?
My bad. They fire 40% faster. Regardless, still the same solution.
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Not sure why, but you made me feel bad for using the word grotesquely................ :cheers:
My bad. They fire 40% faster. Regardless, still the same solution.
:salute
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OK, I finally caught the proof I was looking for....
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs992.snc4/76557_459391082948_700532948_5654174_4700516_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs125.ash2/39579_459391142948_700532948_5654176_7562362_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs993.snc4/76612_459391157948_700532948_5654177_6654347_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs563.ash2/148579_459391182948_700532948_5654178_3087929_n.jpg)
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Splain that one away with bad lead, different rates of fire, crappy aim, pilot error etc...etc...
Late edit for mk84. HO a bomber from the 10-15 degress higher than the pit. Aim at nose and squeeze. Watch sprites from NOSE to TAIL.
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Splain that one away with bad lead, different rates of fire, crappy aim, pilot error etc...etc...
Late edit for mk84. HO a bomber from the 10-15 degress higher than the pit. Aim at nose and squeeze. Watch sprites from NOSE to TAIL.
Turn your weapons effects on so that I can see the orange plume of smoke when you hit a tater. As for the shot, looks like you tatered his engine. That is very common. What's the problem?
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at 150 yards what is the spread between the tater and the 12.7 guns?
If its small, I would say that you had a case of tater flew through the plane, a bug I have seen and noted in my previous post.
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My problem is a tater hit to the cockpit should have killed the pilot among other things. And do u see smoke from engine after strike
That was only firing the 108
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Where are the 12.7mm's coming from? :D
at 150 yards what is the spread between the tater and the 12.7 guns?
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There are none...
And having seen real people get hit with 30mm yes I know what I am talking about
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His most recent post suggests that its irreverent as he states he was only firing the 108, but if he fired all guns, then the hit sprite, not having an orange explosive component to it, seems to suggest that it could be the mgs instead of the taters.
There are none...
And having seen real people get hit with 30mm yes I know what I am talking about
relax, I am not questioning your judgment, i just suspect it could be related to the plane disappearing bug and the likes...
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Splain that one away with bad lead, different rates of fire, crappy aim, pilot error etc...etc...
Late edit for mk84. HO a bomber from the 10-15 degress higher than the pit. Aim at nose and squeeze. Watch sprites from NOSE to TAIL.
My point was that you said you were D200 out. It is not possible to hit from nose to tail and be D200 out the entire time. I didn't think that I would have to blatently point out that your plane is moving through the air, as is your enemies.
Why were you firing your MGs at the same time as your 30mm cannon? :headscratch:
How would you be able to see your 30mm tracers?
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This is maddening. I stated that I fired only the 108. I am not at all acustomed to having my integrity questioned. Let me see if I can snip some different angles. For the love of pete...
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This is maddening. I stated that I fired only the 108. I am not at all acustomed to having my integrity questioned. Let me see if I can snip some different angles. For the love of pete...
post a video of it, let HiTech analyze it, only he can give you a definitive answer, the rest of us are just speculating.
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(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs475.ash2/74878_459429837948_700532948_5654472_6443811_n.jpg)
I will shoot them the vid on Monday. Thanks for the deep comments on the web fellahs. I love the K4 and the Mk108. Having it do anything less than advertised for whatever reason, gets me all worked up.
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Ok,
Since this is probably a LWMA arena issue.
(No one who I have spoken with who complained mentions the DA.)
The next time one of my POTW K4 Mastertaters reports to me his 30mm is shooting blanks, I will do the following.
I'll give up my score or perks or whatever to a filmed exercise at point blank range. The squad mate who is having the problem can go to another country and we tune on 252. I will fly straight and level in the plane type he shot blanks at anywhere the two of us can meet for a few minutes uninterrupted. I will auto level at some agreed upon speed and he can saddle up to 200d or 100d whatever. While filming he holds down only the 30mm button and we see what happens. We will repeat 3 times just incase it's an intermittant internet UDP packet dump issue.
Dirtdart if you want to do this with me when I'm online next give me a PM. I have the perks to give up incase it's a specific aircraft type that is the problem and not the connection or Mk 108 coading and I don't care about score. I would like to resolve this Ghost in the Shell because the issue is becomeing divisive.
I'm announcing this openly so HiTech knows I'm not trying to pad a squad mates or other players score.
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Next time see you I will pm. Thanks for the 2cents.
Crusader
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Just called my ISP. Since the 10th of November the internet has been spotty, in and out. Shakes fist at century link..... So, needless to say, should be connectivity indeed. I wonder, if there could be a fix, especially since the game is "playable" on dial up?
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Just called my ISP. Since the 10th of November the internet has been spotty, in and out. Shakes fist at century link..... So, needless to say, should be connectivity indeed. I wonder, if there could be a fix, especially since the game is "playable" on dial up?
Maybe but your not the only one to report this issue, many of us have been experiencing tater abnormalities.
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Maybe but your not the only one to report this issue, many of us have been experiencing tater abnormalities.
Mine stopped after HiTech made his damage fix.
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About 9 months ago ATT's last 3 hops before the game server's hosting site started becoming congested like clockwork everyday during peak times untill about 1-2am CST. When I checked a USA Internet trunk map, ATT-DSL(SBC) has a single route from california to texas. Gotta wonder if the prono streaming vids are located on servers to the east of SanFran......I understand streaming media is via UDP.
I still want to know, if all the go boom is on my side first, then you get a love note from my side telling your side you went boom. What happens when my side shows me you go boom but the love note gets dropped in transit between california and russia to tell your plane to blow up? I've seen this enough times with the tater. A flash and the plane flys off. Ardy lives here in Oakland also and has described the same phenominon during his more colorfull rants.
So what happens????? Or do I just get to allow this learned cast of bunny slipper enthusiists to escoriate my verasity as is par for the last 8 years of observing these forums?
By the way, last night Squats connection was back to richeous and was not interested in the test. All of his taters were connecting on demand. Oh Well.............. :rolleyes:
Does anyone have a link to a really GOOD realtime USA Internet traffic congestion map?
Might not be a bad thing also for a link to be posted in a sticky so players can get a general overview of traffic quality around the country. If I'm not confused on how it was described to me, when UDP traffic goes up and requires more bandwidth it starts getting dumped in favor of TCP traffic by how the general Internet is configured to handel the protocals. As peak usage and congestion approaches then we should begin seeing lots of rubber taters and other 30mm and larger one shot period projectiles.
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Is there a way to force the game to use a TCP connection without blocking all UDP traffic on my router?
This would be a good test.
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Use some Grains of Salt in digesting these articles. The sky will not fall but, they have some general information about UDP growth and the internet related generaly to our game. During the Great Depression going to the Motion Pictures, .05-.50 cent tickets was cheap escapism entertainment. Today during our down economy the internet is the cheap escapism entertainment.
http://www.christopher-parsons.com/blog/technology/p2p/internet-drowning-in-the-bits-of-udp/
Richard Morris, over at the Register, took uTorrent’s shift to the UDP protocol as an opportunity to cry that the sky was falling. Drawing a parallel between the use of UDP and “Congestion Collapse” or “Internet meltdown”, he argues that shifting to UDP, and away from TCP/IP’s native congestion management features, demands that ISPs be permitted to take a more active role in managing their networks.
http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2008/12/utorrents-switch-to-udp-and-why-the-sky-isnt-falling.ars
The TCP protocol that nearly all applications use—especially the ones sending a lot of data—has a traffic management system built in that is known as congestion control. The congestion control algorithms make TCP slow down when packets get lost, eventually reaching an equilibrium between packet loss and sending rate. Other TCP sessions flowing through the same part of the network see the same packet loss rate, so all these TCPs converge on a similar sending rate, making them share the limited bandwidth equally. UDP, on the other hand, doesn't have any congestion control built in. It's basically an extremely lightweight wrapper around the IP protocol that allows applications to send packets any way they feel like, without providing any feedback about congestion in the network.
So a naive UDP application will just send packets at the highest rate the network interface can support—or maybe even higher—almost certainly overloading some part of the network. However, this is not what µTorrent does. According to the forum post announcing the alpha, "This UDP-based reliable transport is designed to minimize latency, but still maximize bandwidth when the latency is not excessive." So uTP avoids overloading the uplink of the user running the application—removing the need for BitTorrenters to impose limits on the BitTorrent upload and download speeds to avoid slowing down other applications.
However, the core of the internet works at very high speeds, so that even if part of an ISP's infrastructure is severely overloaded, this doesn't introduce much delay or latency—just packet loss. So if uTP only looks at latency in order to determine how fast it can communicate, massive use of uTP could still cause problems in ISP networks and/or push out other (TCP) traffic. Unfortunately, the µTorrent site doesn't provide any information one way or the other.
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For me from my house to St Louis I am at four to five mbs. Past that on all speed tests it drops to one to two. What happens when that five mps data stream plows into the one to two.
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Speed is not as important as what is happening at each hop or router or bridge along the way. If the issue with UDP vs TCP is reached at more than one of them you will see it in the quality of your connection as regards to your quality of sending successful "you go boom" messages to your opponent. Even a single router impacted severly or just badly maintained can make you gnash your teeth while missing Easy shots.
Think of all the guys who swear they hit a panzer with 5-10 rounds and were killed by that panzer with a single shot in return. Statisicly that many subscirpers are not bald faced liaers. All of their descriptions of the events have reasonable grains of truth to them. But, by no means are they describing bugs in the game.
UDP is not the protocol the internet was designed for. If the game was played via TCP our FPS would often be like a slide show. Have you ever watched a long streaming video movie on your PC and off and on got stuttering and halts in the video and sound. Streaming video uses UDP. UDP operates in a stream and has no bandwidth limiter. When it's insatiable apatite for bandwidth reaches the point it limits TCP, routers are currently setup to drop your UDP packets in favor of TCP which is self regulating in its apitite. Kinda like how Old Geezers will play nice together but punk kids will trash everything untill they destroy the place or a cop shows up and regulates em.
HTC's game is 98% perfict most of the time. Skuzzy cannot control the internet and its antipathy towards UDP any of the time.
For me depending on the time of day or other factors, there is a hop in SanFran that bridges to Texas which drops UDP big time. Too much unemployed gay prono video traffic I guess. Then the last three hops in Texas before the game server have issues during peak hours. This has been going on its worst for about 9 months now.
What does this mean?
Statisticly if your connection route is rotten as heck towards UDP, you can be a better pilot and shooter than Grizz by a factor of 100 and it will never show. It will look to everyone else like you can fly but just can't shoot. Thats the totality of why I don't DA. It is not worth the effort while being beaten first by the "Ghost in the Shell", then finished off as a gimmie.
Simple question in the face of what anyone can research about how the internet handles TCP versus UDP traffic and their own connection. How many of the games players would bet $500 of their own money in one vs. one duels, one a day for a month in the DA? At least at a poker table you can see the other guy, his eyes and where his hands are.
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HTC's game is 98% perfict most of the time. Skuzzy cannot control the internet and its antipathy towards UDP any of the time.
You said it all right there Bustr. I did not really think it was a bug issue, just a connectivity issue. I can totally see rounds exploding where they look like they are exploding on my screen, are not exploding behind or ahead of the other plane.
Great links BTW, thanks.
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More frustration :furious
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs098.snc4/36279_472209512948_700532948_5835425_2345377_n.jpg)
Mk-108 Strikes at Engine from enemy POV
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs390.ash2/66805_472209437948_700532948_5835422_5755942_n.jpg)
Mk-108 Strikes on Engine and wing, my POV
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1171.snc4/154385_472209482948_700532948_5835423_3567428_n.jpg)
Me flying by, fully loaded Lanc, no damage, no leaks, no parts flying of etc.....