Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Chalenge on November 10, 2010, 04:21:02 PM
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Theres nothing really new about these cards. They have better cooling and are clocked better than the 480s but really they are the same card. Nvidia is pulling a trick with the drivers so that they will not install onto the 480 cards. But the drivers inf file can be hacked and forced onto the 480s. After having done all that the difference is about 5% overall (after some creative overclocking of the 480). The big difference is the fans which are quieter (wow).
The fastest single card solution is still the Ati 5970 but because its a dual GPU card it has to be compared to SLI or Crossfire systems and against the 480s and 580s it loses steam except in the power consumption category. Why does that matter? Well it effects the light bill and it will make you think twice about your PSU/PSUs but thats about it.
Noise level? Usually the game itself makes more noise but in AH you should not need more than a single card anyway.
So with the 580s coming out Newegg and a few other sites are running specials with 10% off as the intro price. If you are thinking about the Fermi line I suggest you wait just awhile longer. The prices are bound to drop a bit for the 480s soon and that will make them a bargain I hope.
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(http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=34789&stc=1&d=1270734958)
:lol :lol :P
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Pure nonsense. My 8800 GTs ran hotter. The 480s dont have to run anywhere near as hard.
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Typical rebranding-of-old-card launch from Nvidia. And suckers will pay price premium to buy a rebadge *sigh*.
The way 580 was released looks like a panic release from Nvidia since the new top line Ati card is about to be launched. This makes me think Nvidia is expecting to be trumped by the performance of the next-gen Ati top models and cashed out now on this fake release.
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Maybe. Ati still cant write a driver or a control panel to save their lives and that keeps people from moving over too.
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Typical rebranding-of-old-card launch from Nvidia. And suckers will pay price premium to buy a rebadge *sigh*.
The way 580 was released looks like a panic release from Nvidia since the new top line Ati card is about to be launched. This makes me think Nvidia is expecting to be trumped by the performance of the next-gen Ati top models and cashed out now on this fake release.
not really a rebrand, more like a "fixed/non-defective" GTX480. (http://www.semiaccurate.com/forums/showpost.php?p=81902&postcount=1)
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Nonsense again.
The 480 took the crown for the fastest single GPU card. The problems that a few people outline are nit-picky.
Hot? A video card will usually last about ten years as long as it runs within a certain temperature range and the voltage is within tolerance. The 480 might have lost a few months off its life because of heat. Wow.
Noisy? My speakers are usually turned up to the point I cant make out what noise the cooling fans are making. I guess if you sleep with your computer case right next to the bed it could get irritating. Otherwise... wow.
The problem with the card that only Skuzzy mentioned was the number of functioning SMs which was 14 or 15 out of 16 SMs active. That was the result of Nvidia desiring to produce a 40nm technology item. Yes they ran into a few kinks but as always kinks are worked out and we have the 580. So with the kinks worked out and everything working as designed there is a 12.5% increase in individual card performance.
Calling it a fixed GF100 (480) is shortsighted. The 580 is a new die size and is a hair smaller. Working out the kinks in the 40nm process has taken them this long but they did not work out a change in the overall design which will come about in the next generation. With that in mind the 580 closely resembles the 480 but it is not exactly the same card. I say it is the same because the architecture itself is the same but as I pointed out the die is actually new. What makes it faster is that the entire chip is active.
So... Im going to change my "maybe" to a "nope you missed it again." :D
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Noisy? My speakers are usually turned up to the point I cant make out what noise the cooling fans are making. I guess if you sleep with your computer case right next to the bed it could get irritating. Otherwise... wow.
Well I have to say the reason why I use 90% of Mac and 10% of PC at the moment would be that a Mac doesn't require 60 desibels of fans to constantly cool it while browsing internet and such. So the noise is indeed an issue that you'll only realize when the noise is gone. Of course instant wake from sleep is also not bad. Oh, and not having 150 000 new viruses a day. Where was I again? Right.. :D
My next project will be to encase my gaming computer behind a wall (utility room) and pull only cabling through to isolate the noise.
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Chalenge, I cannot believe you brought up drivers as a concern with ATI, given the seriously buggy drivers NVidia has produced lately.
Yes, the ATI control panel is horrible. Thankfully there is a good alternative to it.
The 580 is a fixed 480. NVidia seriouly screwed up the design of the 480 die. Every engineer, worth anything at all, knows it.
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OK guys,
seeing as you all seem to know a whole lot more than the average smuck (i believe i am in the front seat of that bus) about video cards, tell us of much lower knowledge on the subject, the one card you believe to be the gamers holy grail of video.
its simple, name the card and maybe if you have a moment state why it is the only way to go for the ultimate gaming experience.
SKUZZZZZZZ this request goes to you as well!!!!!!!! I'm not asking for Aceshigh to promote a video card, I'm asking "Skuzzy" what, as a personal gamer, would he pick to use and why. please do not argue against the card posted by anyone else, just state your own card and your own reasons for picking it and leave the opinions of others alone.
thanx in advance for any answers....
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5870
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5870
Agreed. But then I may be a little biased as I just got one.
It apparently doesn't need much in the way of a power supply.
I haven't played a game yet that has made this thing blink.
Direct X11 ready.
And it is SILENT.
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I am not a gamer. Really, I am not a gamer. I quit playing games many years ago. I cannot play Aces High as I have no room for a joystick to sit on my desk.
The last new game I really played was the original UnReal Tournament. As of today, I am playing Madden 11 on a console. I will never go online with it, but offline it has enough diversity to keep me interested. I am also contemplating some race car game, but the jury is still out.
I am done with PC gaming.
Today I buy video cards based on how well they work with the various video editing tools I use. ATI is who I use today. Better power utilization, quiet, and well designed. NVidia will get there, but it will be another generation or two before they can clean up thier current designs.
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5870
5770x2 :)
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Chalenge, I cannot believe you brought up drivers as a concern with ATI, given the seriously buggy drivers NVidia has produced lately.
Yes, the ATI control panel is horrible. Thankfully there is a good alternative to it.
The 580 is a fixed 480. NVidia seriouly screwed up the design of the 480 die. Every engineer, worth anything at all, knows it.
I said it because its true. You can say that the way Nvidia updates their drivers leaves their customers behind. Personally I havent had too much trouble with drivers but I also let other people on the Nvidia (primarily Evga) sites do the testing first before I update. Thats wise no matter what item your updating.
The problem I have with Ati is they suck at flight simulators. Its not just their control panel. Ati just cannot handle graphics that simulate weather patterns while it does everything else in a flight simulator too. Ati is also seriously lagging behind Nvidia when it comes to high resolution. Of course those issues dont really hit home in AH.
As far as video editing goes I dont think a mid-point video card (gaming card) is the way to go at all. In the FirePro versus Quadro benchmarks Ati cant even post 3/4 the performance of Nvidia cards for things like 3D Studio and in AutoCAD (where I make the big bucks) Ati cant even post 1/2 the scores.
Also I disagree that a 580 is a fixed 480. I GF110 is a corrected GF100 and perhaps it is what the GF100 was intended to be but it is also more refined. The difference is similar to a company that has just learned to make muskets but doesnt realize the difference a few tolerance changes can make. The first revision of any new technology will always be more accurate and I think any engineer would know that too. So you might say that a GF110 is a perfected GF100.
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Workstation video cards do not fare well in video editing situations.
"Flight simulators" is a broad term. I consider Aces High to be a flight simulator as it does a bangup job of simulating flight. ATI cards run it very well. It sounds like you are talking about one specific application. For any given application, some will work better on NVidia, others on ATI.
High resolution? So you consider having 6 high resolution LCD panels connected and running at a resolution of 5940x3840 and maintaining a frame rate of over 45FPS in several top 10 gaming titles bad performance? I have seen ATI cards do it.
Chalenge, I know you are a fan of NVidia, but you are not doing anyone any favors by expounding on all the good points of NVidia while lamenting ATI's short comings at the same time. It just asserts your attachment to NVidia. I could turn the tables and do the very same thing, if I were an ATI fanboi. It accomplishes nothing and will more oftend than not, steer someone into making a poor decision.
You want to hear my recomendation when players ask me what card to buy? I tell them they cannot go wrong if they are spending around $150, or more, on a video card. ATI and Nvidia both make good product in the price range.
There is no such thing as a perfect Fermi. There never will be. If take an afront to that, it is only due to your lack of understanding the very nature of silicon design. The GF100 is a botched design. The design goes against the process chosen by the silicon manufacturer. There is no doubt it will be fixed, but that will take a few turns of silicone in order to accomplish that. This is not the first time this has happened with NVidia. It has happened to ATI once as well.
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Yes with "flight simulators" I meant the flight sims that add weather than the more important aspects we enjoy in AH. With high resolution I meant 2560x1600 on a single monitor. Lets turn on some high AA and AF and see how those multi-monitors fare.
Im pretty sure the Fermi-bashers will still be bashing Nvidia even when they release the 6xx cards with twice the performance.
No electronics are perfect its true. What I meant was "polished" but since the process is flawed you can bash Nvidia for electronics being difficult to produce flawlessly. The problem is you add your voice to this and the bashers in this forum slam Nvidia as worthless. The Fermis are still the fastest single processor/card solution.
Over on gamedev the programmers (Jay Dolan for one and I cant recall the others right now)seem to be in agreement that Nvidia is by far the easier to optimize their routines for. I have to take his word for it but because he programs for graphics solutions and games as well I have to put weight on what he says.
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I am not bashing NVidia. I am strictly objective in this matter and everything I have stated is fact with no drama added.
You, on the other hand, have been bashing ATI while extolling how great NVidia is. You have no engineering background, nor does it appear you have any design background in games either (weather is just graphics and can be implemented in a dozen different ways, some ATI friendly, some NVidia friendly and every programmer has thier own opinion as to what they like best. Some of those opinions are based on how much money ATI or NVidia will toss the developer as well). Your opinion seems to be based on some very specific things you do with your card(s), yet you make broad statements which can be misleading to the novice.
I support both products everyday. I have to know what to expect so I do a lot of research into the products as it is the only way I can support them. I do not depend on any one users opinion, nor do I put much stock in any WEB based articles which also state thier opinions. Weeding through opinions to get to the facts is what I do. There are very few articles on the WEB that do not start with the sentence, "I think...", while using subjective data to backup the opinion.
I fully understand you do not like ATI. I have no issue with that. I have an issue with the manner you try to persuade people to go with NVidia. It is laced with obvious bias and misinformation. I have no doubt you believe what you are saying, but you do have a limited sample to work with.
If I were to do what you are doing, I would be bashing NVidia and extolling how great ATI is, as in my application at home ATI is about 25% faster than NVidia and far more stable as well. It is also quieter and runs much, much cooler drawing much less power which keeps my electric bill down. That would not be the far, nor right thing to do. My application is MY application. I tested both, ATI won.
Yet, I will be the first to tell anyone, my application may not be your application and I will not recommend ATI over NVidia, or vice-versa. There is a best card for any given application. It all depends on the application.
For Aces High, either brand is fine as long as you watch how you update the software.
EDIT: By the way Chalenge, I am not trying to pick on you here. My sole concern is hardware be viewed in an objective manner.
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I understand that Skuzzy. I do the same thing you do (without the engineering background) and I have come to a different conclusion. I also used to be the CAD Manager for a firm that did a lot of interior design work for aircraft remanufacturing and custom work. I can tell you that Ati has never had a card that could quickly change from wireframe to hidden surface to full rendered views without crashing the system or driving the tech crazy with freezes. I have the same problem with Ati today which is why I dont have any of their cards. The one thing I like about Nvidia cards is I install them and they work and I have never been able to say that about Ati especially with a brand new day-of-original release purchase.
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Now you are getting specific. Yes, ATI does not do OpenGl well, but more importantly, NVidia has a lock on that market as they throw a lot of money at those firms to make sure the OpenGL code is optimized for NVidia. Nothing wrong with that at all.
If I had to use OpenGl all day, I would use NVidia. For DirectX, it is a wash, for the most part. Both companies have winners and losers in that realm. For video encoding/decoding ATI has done what NVidia has done in the OpenGL market and so they have an edge there.
Like I said, it is all about the application. There is no one company who does it all better than the other.