Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Karnak on November 10, 2010, 09:23:57 PM
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Let me start with the fact that I am not at all unhappy with the outcome of the recent poll. The only aircraft out of the initial eight that I would have been unhappy with was the A-26, and it lost. All is good with that and I look forward to the B-29 as I would have looked forward to a Pe-2, Ki-45, Ki-43, Beaufighter, He111 or Me410.
The idea I had was instead of starting with a list of eight units, instead start with the names of a number of nations. The winning nation then gets four units listed. The top two of those get a final round and hence to the winner. I think this might be a better system as it allows people to vote for a country's units even if they aren't knowledgeable about WWII history. For example, your average player may have no idea what a Ki-43 is, yet think that Japan needs more stuff in the game, but presented with a bunch of things he doesn't know what they are, goes for the familiar, most likely American, for obvious reasons.
Example:
Round one:
Finland
France
Germany
Italy
Japan
Russia
United Kingdom
United States
Round two, Japanese victory:
H8K2
J2M3
Ki-43
Ki-45
Round three, H8K2, Ki-43 victory:
H8K2
Ki-43
Winner, H8K2, HTC groans and vows never to put a monster sized plane on a poll again.
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I think most people would select United States. I think those who worry about gaps in the game's plane-set are a minority only vocal here on the BBS.
How about pictures?
*Show the aircraft*
Name
Fighter/Bomber/Attack
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Wouldn't change much
Billy sees the countries. Billy can't think of any Russian or Japanese plane. But he knows about the B-29! B-29! THAT WOULD BE AWESOME!
Billy votes USA!
;)
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We tend to forget those other countries sometimes.
(http://www.co.barnes.nd.us/Dept/aud/images/FlagWaving.gif)
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I think a picture of each with a brief description of each plane in the poll would be good. Most haven't a clue of what they are voting for ( much like most elections :D ) With some information people would at least consider a plane they had never heard of before if even it was only going by looks :P
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We tend to forget those other countries sometimes.
(http://www.co.barnes.nd.us/Dept/aud/images/FlagWaving.gif)
Nooooo?!
You sure about that??
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The idea I had was instead of starting with a list of eight units, instead start with the names of a number of nations. The winning nation then gets four units listed. The top two of those get a final round and hence to the winner. I think this might be a better system as it allows people to vote for a country's units even if they aren't knowledgeable about WWII history. For example, your average player may have no idea what a Ki-43 is, yet think that Japan needs more stuff in the game, but presented with a bunch of things he doesn't know what they are, goes for the familiar, most likely American, for obvious reasons.
I'm strongly against this idea. The community is mostly American and most Americans will vote America no matter how bloated the American planeset gets. This way we would end up with HTC using their time making four American planes/units instead of one.
A-26
SBC
Catalina
PB2Y Coronado
P-63
P-61
A-36
C-46
PB4Y-2 Privateer
...and so on. Hopefully, it is long, long time before the next vote.
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I'm strongly against this idea. The community is mostly American and most Americans will vote America no matter how bloated the American planeset gets. This way we would end up with HTC using their time making four American planes/units instead of one.
A-26
SBC
Catalina
PB2Y Coronado
P-63
P-61
A-36
C-46
PB4Y-2 Privateer
...and so on. Hopefully, it is long, long time before the next vote.
Completely agreed. If anything, they should have just put in foreign A/C for the vote.
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We tend to forget those other countries sometimes.
(http://www.co.barnes.nd.us/Dept/aud/images/FlagWaving.gif)
"Do you know there's other countries out there....? Just checking! Sometimes you have to go through a fair few channels to get anything....." -Izzard :D
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Completely agreed. If anything, they should have just put in foreign A/C for the vote.
This would be the only way to get a non-US aircraft out of a vote at this point. If we didn't have any Spitfire, 109, 190 or Zero, those could probably pull out a win over a rare or obscure US aircraft, but as we have them....
The problem with doing it this way is that it is VERY heavy handed.
I did see people talking in 200 who wanted a Japanese or German or Russian aircraft, but had no idea what any of the aircraft on the list were, so they voted for the B-29 or A-26. I do think it most likely that my suggested system would result in a choice of four American aircraft in round one, but how is that different than now? Look at the round one and round two results from the recent poll. #1 spot in round one was the B-29, #2 was the A-26. In round two the Me410 only managed to edge the A-26 due to the number of votes it picked up from people who had previously voted for the Ki-43, Ki-45, Pe-2 and Beaufighter, sending the Me410 on to lose in a landslide against the B-29. If the A-26 had been paired with any other American aircraft other than the B-29, say an SB2C instead, the final round would have been between two American aircraft, again. The B-29 was so desired that it siphoned too many votes from the A-26 for the second place American aircraft to overcome the "something not American" crowd.
By taking actual planes off the list I was suggesting an attempt to remove the familiar as a vote draw. I really don't think that many people are voting for US stuff because they are American and only want American stuff in the game. I think many votes for American stuff are simply because they know what it is, at least to a degree.
The third option would be to have very potent aircraft on the vote, except for the American ones which are bottom of the barrel. Something like:
H8K2 'Emily'
J2M5 Raiden 'Jack'
Ju188A-1
Me410
Meteor Mk III
G.55
TBD-1 Devastator
Tu-2
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Realistically, what's left in the American lineup as far as combat aircraft are concerned? The primary US aircraft that have been wished for are the B-29 and A-26.
So let's think about it for a minute...
Regardless of how effective they'd be in any of the arenas, hangar queens or not, the list is surprisingly small. These are off the top of my head...so work with me here...
B-29 (coming)
A-26 (short list)
SB2C (which is already obsolete by CV-killing P-47s)
PB4Y-2 (which is basically just another heavy bomber)
P-61 (which lacks a definitive role)
PBY (which again lacks a definitive role)
TBD
SBC
PV-1
PV-2
C-46
C-54
From here, we get into obscure aircraft or variants of existing airframes, P-70, F-5, F-6. But even these lack definitive roles unless we get a night-fighting arena or the ability to make use of a recon or rescue aircraft.
The best idea we can come up with is to present a list of aircraft from all countries that can be considered 'must-have' gap-filling aircraft. Take for example, the Fiat G.55. Folks might say that we don't need another Italian fighter, but...the G.55 would be a step up from the 205 and would therefore bring Italian aircraft into parity with Allied aircraft for the average player.
The Ki-43 would be a nice addition, lightweight and maneuverable, but with serious handicaps in terms of firepower and pilot protection. We hear whines now about pilot wounds, imagine a Ki-43 in the LW arenas. The Ki-43 would fill a HUGE gap in the historical side of the game, AvA, FSO, etc.
I do heartily agree that there are deficiencies in the Russian planeset, especially in the attack aircraft and fighter areas, Yak-1, Yak-3, MiG-1, Mig-3, Tu-2, and Pe-8. Same can be said for the Italian plane set, G.55, Re.2005, Cr.42, Mc.200, Cant 1007, Br.42, SM.79, etc...
At this point, aside from some bombers (He-111, Do-17, Do-217, Ju-188, He-177) almost anything German that we add will be a novelty or lack a defined role. If we needed 40 troops to take a base then an Me-323 might not be a bad idea, but like anything else that's added, it's either uber or a huge target, so pick your poison.
As a group, instead of beatchin' at each other and flaming wishlist posts, perhaps we should establish a thread with a serious discussion of what's needed. The kind of thread that when read by someone from HTC, they actually get something worthwhile out of it instead of wasting their time talking about wanting nuclear submarines and space stations.
The problem with any thread like this - is that a few will contribute useful information, while others will bombard the thread with useless drivel that contributes nothing to the process. They jump on their particular aircraft bandwagon with total disregard to how the aircraft will operate in theatre. An He-111 will be great in AvA, FSO, etc., just like the Ki-43, but in the all-important LW arena they'll be chased down like goons by anyone with guns on board.
Truth be told, with the exception of a few missing fighters, Yak-3, Ki-44, J2M, G.55, etc., the list of aircraft that could operate in the LW arena (as long as LW continues to house the majority of players) is very small. There were a finite number of aircraft developed and built in that 7-year period. Eventually, we're going to run out of wishlist aircraft (I hope).
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:aok
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I like the idea, Karnak. Unfortunately, I think it would only work in a perfect world. Snailman and Wmaker hit the nail on the head. The outcome of votes would be the same in the end.
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How's about this format:
1. We have enough Hot Rod LW US planes.
2. The so-called "hangar queens" are only that in the LW arenas.
3. FSO, Snapshots, Scenarios and AvA regularly use non LW planes.
4. No more US planes until we have a full Japanese, German and Russian planeset.
5. See #1
From an historical scenario perspective here's the order of additions I would like to see, throwing in a few for the MA guys.
Round one: Ki43, He 111, Petlyakov 2
Round two: Ki27 (1) Me410, Yak3
Round three: A-26, Beaufighter
Round four: Ki21, Ju52 (2), Il4
1. Useful for AVG scenarios and for Jap Russ scenarios.
2. Use existing flight model from C-47
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The problem with that format is it gets a little muddled when you have airframes that served with different countries (such as the P-39). It was designed in the U.S. but saw by far the most service with the VVS in the Soviet Union, is that a US or Soviet plane in the poll?
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I dont think most people in the game will bother to do a research to chose and airplane based on historical value. they will pick whichever airplane looks familiar. You will not change that. for many years I thought that the japanese only had one fighter, the zero. give a choice of country most will pick the us and you will still end up with a us aircraft. you cannot change that. but perhaps it may help you understand this if I explain why i picked the a26 instead of some other plane i never heard of.
I flew airwarrior back in the 90's. actually the only reason i found this game, was because of my memories of airwarrior. in that game i flew the a26 a lot, i have lots of good memories of the a26. that's it. It doesnt matter that the a26 will not be the same as the aw a26. I just want to be able to fly the a26 again for old times sake. and it would be my buff of choice, replacing my b26.
that's why at the end when the a26 was out, i just chose I dont care, because i didnt. but to be honest the b29 will probably see more use than the last aircraft added. I'll fly it and if it has defensive guns. i will not go higher than 10k. 1/2 the fun of flying a buff is using the guns.
I really hate to see you guys that want an expanded plane set for your fso, snapshots, etc try to make rules to get one plane that it is "needed" there, but wont get used anywhere else. I am beginning to understand hitech's "people dont really know what they want" statement. Look at the ww1 arena. many people asked for it and it sits unused, they want more planes, that wont get used.
semp
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Soulyss,
That would simply count as American unless it is something we never used, such as the B239 the Finns used.
guncrasher,
I have no issue with people picking something they know about and want. The problem I am trying to address is people who don't know anything about any of the choices and then picking one that is vaguely familiar. Obviously, in that setting you would pick American in the first round so as to get to the A-16 in the second round.
Me actively not wanting the A-26 in AH, nor my reasons for that opinion, have any bearing on others being able to request it or vote for it.
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I understand semp, but we are fast approaching the point where anything that will get used in MA is already there, and we still have alot of planes to be added that will allow us to run better historical scenarios.
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You just took me on a tangent............. And you are speaking about LW MA right? EW & MW, if they had more options might just make them as interesting and fun to be in as LW. And that can't be a bad thing.
I understand semp, but we are fast approaching the point where anything that will get used in MA is already there, and we still have alot of planes to be added that will allow us to run better historical scenarios.
+1 on the wish
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You just took me on a tangent............. And you are speaking about LW MA right? EW & MW, if they had more options might just make them as interesting and fun to be in as LW. And that can't be a bad thing.
EW is dead, and it has not been killed by having not enough options. You can now throw any number of planes at it, it won't help.
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How's bout we all just agree to be happy with whatever we get. Slapping rules on a poll that happens twice a decade seems ridiculous.
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And you are speaking about LW MA right?
Yep
How's bout we all just agree to be happy with whatever we get. Slapping rules on a poll that happens twice a decade seems ridiculous.
You are right of course, but hey it was a chance to get our opinions in.
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Since it has been observed enough times with previous polls for new planes, lets get something finished and out of the way.
The tendancy for the MA is to choose speed and power. Or, the apperance of a dominat edge to run away fast in the LWMA's. What are the remaining late war Power Planes? Can we list them and accept for the forseable future those will be all we will get out of a poll they are offerd in. HiTech will have to slip things in on us like the Betty wheather the xbox heros want them or not. Or, being aware of this, he may relent and hold polls of only the lesser more historical gap filler rides independant of the BFG9000 class honker rides.
I can think of a few:
Italy
G55
Great Britain
Meteor
Fairey FireFly
Beau
Germany
Me410
Japan
J2M Raiden
Ki100
Ki45
United States
A26
P61
SB2C
PV-2 Harpoon
A36/P51A
Russia
Yak3
P63
The logic is simple as long as C is constant and any combination of the rest are TRUE:
A. Does it go FAST?
B. Does it Almost Manuver Like a Spit16 or BETTER?
C. Does it have Kickin GUNS? (Single 20mm cannon and 2 MG as baseline or equivalent. Harpoon has 5 .50 in nose.)
D. Does it carry lotsa thingies that go BOOM?
E. Does it RUNAWAY FAST?
F. Does it LOOK like I can Kick you in the Nads and RunAway FAST?
By the looks of the B29 poll breakdown, there are more paying players who's only concern is BANG for the BUCK then the true fans of the historic scenario genre. Thus HiTech adding the Betty without any polling.
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The Ki-43 would be a nice addition, lightweight and maneuverable, but with serious handicaps in terms of firepower and pilot protection. We hear whines now about pilot wounds, imagine a Ki-43 in the LW arenas. The Ki-43 would fill a HUGE gap in the historical side of the game, AvA, FSO, etc.
If this is the reason for keeping the 2nd most produced Japanese fighter out of the game, why not offer the plane with 2 load out options?
Two 7.7 mm of the 1a model or two 12.7 mm of the 1c model.
The 12.7's would make it a little more competitive and if thats not enough, offer the IIIb prototype load out of two 20mm.
Hell, anything to get a plane with production numbers of over 5000 into the game.
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If this is the reason for keeping the 2nd most produced Japanese fighter out of the game, why not offer the plane with 2 load out options?
Two 7.7 mm of the 1a model or two 12.7 mm of the 1c model.
The 12.7's would make it a little more competitive and if thats not enough, offer the IIIb prototype load out of two 20mm.
Hell, anything to get a plane with production numbers of over 5000 into the game.
XBoX-Generation: Speed and Power = Easy Mode and Success. Hard Work / Delayed Gratification = BORING
From Below: F. Does it LOOK like I can Kick you in the Nads and RunAway FAST? = I am a WINNER... :neener: :neener: :bolt:
Lets apply logic here:
The logic is simple as long as C is constant and any combination of the rest are TRUE:
A. Does it go FAST?
B. Does it Almost Manuver Like a Spit16 or BETTER?
C. Does it have Kickin GUNS? (Single 20mm cannon and 2 MG as baseline or equivalent. Harpoon has 5 .50 in nose.)
D. Does it carry lotsa thingies that go BOOM?
E. Does it RUNAWAY FAST?
F. Does it LOOK like I can Kick you in the Nads and RunAway FAST?
Ki43
a=no
b=yes
c=no
d=no
e=no
f=no
result=FAIL
B29
a=yes
b=no
c=yes
d=yes
e=yes
f=yes
result=PASS
B25C/H
a=no
b=no
c=yes
d=yes
e=no
f=no
result=PASS
P39D/Q
a=no
b=yes
c=yes
d=no
e=no
f=no
result=PASS
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It must really suck to be an Amerihater these days :D
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We tend to forget those other countries sometimes.
(http://www.co.barnes.nd.us/Dept/aud/images/FlagWaving.gif)
Theres other countries? this is news to me
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It must really suck to be an Amerihater these days :D
Has nothing to do with an idiotic idea like hating America. It has to do with wanting a greater variety of units that played major roles in WWII.
Or are you a know nothing to whom advocating the addition of a major core aircraft like the Ki-43 over a bit player like the A-26 equals being an "Amerihater"?
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It must really suck to be an Amerihater these days :D
I am an Amerilover, but she is very well represented in the game already. Other nations...... not so much.
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It must really suck to be an Amerihater these days :D
Glad to see Rino showed his true colours. Not that it wasn't evident right away.