Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Tac on November 16, 2010, 02:11:49 PM
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Article:
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What would school have been like if you never had to worry about getting an F? Students at West Potomac High School in Alexandria, Va., are about to find out, the Washington Post reports.
Earlier this year, the school all but eradicated the standard mark for “failure”, instead supplying wayward students with the letter “I” for incomplete. So what does an “I” give you that an “F” doesn’t? Time to redeem yourself, for starters. Students with an “I” on their report card can (literally) learn their lesson and catch up over the year, at which point they will be given a grade for their mastery of the material, just like any other student.
So is this an inspired move to get those marginal students on track and learning, or just another way in which we’re coddling underachieving kids and hobbling the rest? Parents, educators and students are divided.
Mary Mathewson, an English teacher at Potomac High tells the Post that the new standard not only cripples teachers in that it "takes away one of the very few tools [they] have to get kids to learn," but it gives them “an out,” resulting in a system in which “kids are under the impression they can do it whenever they want to, and it's not that big of a deal.”
Pointing out that the A-F grading system has not been thrown out entirely, but rather, redesigned to reach those who might not learn at the same rate as their peers, Fairfax County’s assistant superintendent for instructional services asked the Post, “"If we really want students to know and do the work, why would we give them an F and move on? I think the students who are struggling should not be penalized for not learning at the same rate as their peers."
Alternative grading is nothing new: Potomac High joins good company—some of the nation's highest educational institutions, including the law schools of Stanford University, Yale University, and University of California, Berkeley all employ non-traditional grading systems. Other high schools like the Big Picture high schools in Rhode Island, which focuses on internships, have found that learning goes better when uncomplicated by grades. The measure of their success? Improvement in their standardized achievement scores, most of their seniors going to college, and high college graduation rates. Proponents of this kind of grading method have long argued that letters are arbitrary, overly focused on the right answer instead of the thinking behind it, and have no corollary relationship from school to school—in other words, not “fair” from the get-go.
But will the process of learning for the sake of learning be lost on notoriously gratification-minded high school kids? And what about the value of learning from losing in the first place?
“Americans tend to frame things in terms of contests and wars that must be won or lost," writer John Schwartz says in his New York Times essay, "Lessons Learned in the Losing." "Many challenges, however, are about hanging in there and managing a bad situation. Losing prepares you for the slog that is life. The world doesn’t give us many finish lines, but it does give us the long run.”
While his focus is on high school sports rather than grades, I can't help but think Schwartz has an excellent point here about teaching our children to persevere in the face of challenges, even if it's hard to watch. After all, what are we trying to prepare our kids for in school, if not life?
-------http://shine.yahoo.com/event/momentsofmotherhood/failure-is-impossible-for-high-school-students-no-really-2410739/
You could say i'm a living proof that this system works very well despite the complaints of teachers. I attended an American school in south america and my class and two others were selected to use a system that was very similar to this one to grade us during our entire high school years (9-12).
The system we used was twofold: Every assignment and test was graded on a 0 to 100 scale. Each segment of our curriculum was then assigned an 'Excelled' , a 'Pass' and an 'Incomplete'. (E, P and I).
To use a simple example, if we were learning math basics: Addition, subtraction, multiplication and division for the semester (3 months) then we would have one letter grade for each segment (add,subtract,divide and multiply).
If by the end of that semester a student had :
Addition: E
Subtraction: P
Multiplication: E
Division: I
then he would be told that during the following semester (or summer school if this was the last semester of the year) that had had the CHOICE of taking after school classes to improve his 'P' grade into an 'E' or take a big exam for the same purpose... and that his 'I' grade did mandate that he take 1 month of remedial classes after school or during summer school to improve the grade to at least a 'P'.
The remedial classes were 2 hours long when after-school and 4 hours long during summer school.
If a student could still not pass that grade then he would have to repeat the entire semester with next year's kids that were a grade below him (and re-do remedial classes or summer school if he still could not pass it) as well as take his regular math class with those of his grade on the same day (the art/sport elective classes were replaced with the math class with the lower grades)
IF the student was still incapable of passing it then he was either remitted to special ed classes (this is in extreme cases) or the parents were told the school was no longer responsible for the child learning that material and the he would not be allowed to graduate from high school unless he passed that remedial course or exam.
The result of this was that the grades of those in the classes using this system shot up dramatically. Not the internal school grades but the nation-wide exams given by the gov. (aka similar to the SAT's). If I remember right we went up from being #20 something to being in the top 8 in 2 years.
It worked because if I could not learn how to..say, divide (using the above example) I was given every chance I could to learn it. If I did not 'get it' while it was being taught on that semester and took the remedial after school class... and still didnt get it... but the next semester when seeing basic algebra I would suddenly understand how division worked and did well on it I could apply to take the Exam and get a P or E on it and that P or E became my grade. The 'I' and all the under-50 score tests,quizes and homework I had flunked simply disappeared from the record. My grade was the P or E.
As a teen the pressure for me to get a passing grade was not the grade itself but the stigma that could come from being sent to the lower grades to take that semester's class with them (PLUS i'd end up having TWO math classes every day which would've sucked)..... and the fact that if I did not get the passing grade I would be stuck forcibly in after school for months or worse, during summer vacation for 4 hours doing it.
Many of us struggled with learning the material in the month or 2 it was being taught before the subject moved on and would get bad grades because of it.. but with the remedial system and the new grade system we could at the end of the year not only know the material well but be rewarded with the grade that showed that we had LEARNED it.
So imo, this system is very good if done right. Grading people on how fast they can learn is not grading what they learn but their ability to learn and everyone learns differently.
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There must be a lot of failures in that school. Including the staff.
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can we get this at the university level? :noid
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We have "I" here in texas, but that usually means that you had excessive absenses or you got suspended.
In college a "D" is passing in the range of 60-69, you just do not recieve the credit hours for the course.
Failing students is honestly the best method of getting a kid or their parents the message. "Life will not throw you bones, neither will we."
I think we should stop making safety caps for chemicals...would solve A LOT of "Fs" in this country
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We have "I" here in texas, but that usually means that you had excessive absenses or you got suspended.
In college a "D" is passing in the range of 60-69, you just do not recieve the credit hours for the course.
Failing students is honestly the best method of getting a kid or their parents the message. "Life will not throw you bones, neither will we."
I think we should stop making safety caps for chemicals...would solve A LOT of "Fs" in this country
At the university I attend, If you get a "D" you get the credit hours, they just dont transfer.
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At the university I attend, If you get a "D" you get the credit hours, they just dont transfer.
That could be it...I never got a "D" so I wouldnt know :D
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I have had every letter available at least twice. :noid
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I think that is a ridiculous idea...Failing deserves an F and if someone has to repeat a class or grade because they fail then they should learn a lesson from that.
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I think that is a ridiculous idea...Failing deserves an F and if someone has to repeat a class or grade because they fail then they should learn a lesson from that.
Yes it is.
Success comes from putting forth an effort. If you are unable, or unwilling too put forth the effort you should fail. Just like you would in life.
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Might as well go to "Smiley Face" for passing and "Frowny Face" for "needs improvement - but you're still special!"
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I want gold stars
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We have "I" here in texas, but that usually means that you had excessive absenses or you got suspended.
In college a "D" is passing in the range of 60-69, you just do not recieve the credit hours for the course.
Failing students is honestly the best method of getting a kid or their parents the message. "Life will not throw you bones, neither will we."
I think we should stop making safety caps for chemicals...would solve A LOT of "Fs" in this country
Are you insane?
Do you realize how many toddlers (who can't read, by the way) would die by eating toxic chemicals? How would you feel if your 2-year-old kid just happened to OD on aspirin, thinking that it was just another foodstuff? You are a sick, sick person- go to a psychiatrist and get this sorted out.
-Penguin
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Are you insane?
Do you realize how many toddlers (who can't read, by the way) would die by eating toxic chemicals? How would you feel if your 2-year-old kid just happened to OD on aspirin, thinking that it was just another foodstuff? You are a sick, sick person- go to a psychiatrist and get this sorted out.
-Penguin
I agree, but can we take off the warnings on stuff like Preparation H about not taking it orally? :rofl
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West Potomac is in the county where I currently go to high school go figure.
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I love the "Do Not Eat" label on silica dessicant packages. I wonder who the first idiot to eat it was that made them label it as such.
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Are you insane?
Do you realize how many toddlers (who can't read, by the way) would die by eating toxic chemicals? How would you feel if your 2-year-old kid just happened to OD on aspirin, thinking that it was just another foodstuff? You are a sick, sick person- go to a psychiatrist and get this sorted out.
-Penguin
How in the world did anyone survive the last century????
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My, you are obtuse. Thousands had died from cases just like these, but of course we as a species survived. However, on that note, I guess that hospital sanitation should be thrown out the window, as we got by without that, too.
-Penguin
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and microchip technology
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I'm divided on this.
On the one hand I can see the virtue of this. Rather than telling students, "You fail, you're screwed for life," it reinforces the notion of "If at first you don't succeed, try again. And again. And again. And again. And again..." This can encourage students who genuinely care and try but just can't grasp the concepts to keep trying and not giving up. THAT'S one of the most important things to keep underachieving students from giving up and looking for the easy way out: You're not handing anything to them and they still have to work for it, but you're not giving them one chance and then they're out of luck.
The problem comes in those cases where lazy kids DO abuse the system. However IF it's managed properly I don't see this as being any more open to abuse than the traditional A-F system.
Frankly, I'm kind of surprised by the number of you who automatically assume students who struggle in school are just lazy tulips who don't apply themselves. Oh yes, there ARE kids like that, but there are also students who try their damn hardest but just don't get it.
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I never understood what the point of giving somebody an F was. You go to school to learn, not to be told you are dumb. I got lots of F's in school, but graduated in the middle of the pack. some things were easy for me, like math, others I couldn't understand like reading and comprehension. then I found out I have a learning disability. I figure it out myself when i was in my late 30's. my kids also have it. anything that has to do with numbers is easy for me to learn, anything that has to do with reading, it's hard for me. because i cant seem to comprehend what I read. took me many years to figure out a way to overcome that. you guys have seen some of the replies i give to questions posted here on the bb's. some are completely wrong. guess why.
Do you guys take your kids to play tball or whatever sport and at the end of the season, everybody gets a trophy, do you give it back, saying my kid's team finished last place, he doesnt deserve it? finishing other than first, second or third place, is like getting an F. but you guys dont think about it that way. try telling your kid who just maybe played his best, but has no skill whatsoever how stupid he is for losing an easy game. You wont ever do that, would you?
maybe some of you guys think how you give your own kids/family/friends and "I" all the time for things they do wrong, instead of the "F" they really deserve.
semp
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Getting softer and weaker everyday.
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I never understood what the point of giving somebody an F was. You go to school to learn, not to be told you are dumb. I got lots of F's in school, but graduated in the middle of the pack.
I was a straight C student up until 10th grade (yes even 1 year into the new grading system). By 12th I was an 'A-' student (as was almost everyone else in my class). In my country's SAT -type test (which is insanely harder than the spoon-fed SAT in the US btw) I scored in the top 20 of the country. That test is completely independent from the school's tests and is not multiple choice but fill in the blanks (with no 'fill in the blank using one of the terms on the list provided'..we had no list!).
All im saying is a system like this has a lot of merits and does work if done properly. Grading a kid's performance on rush-learning is not the same as grading what he has learned. Not all teachers are good, not all teachers teach the same way and definetely every kid learns differently and at a different pace.
The 'modern' education methods are geared more towards generalized production of graduates like if it was a factory rather than focusing on having the children learn.
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You have to try pretty hard to get an F.
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You have to try pretty hard to get an F.
Yes you do.
In fact some school systems are reluctant to fail students because it makes them look bad.
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wow no more F's for lil johnny, just I for incomplete, like there schooling, rest easy ol'timers our futures lookin so bright i gotta were these shades :cool: ol lord were in trouble :old:
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We here in Tennessee still have F's you can make..
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We had a change many years ago...no pass or fail... (how it was when I was there...My nephew has just done some mock exams in preparation for the Exams he is about to to do now....in one exam he filled out 2 questions of 15 and got an achieved..this is depicted by the letter...you guessed it A ....so he's like sweet I got an A..when really he got what would be considered a C-...but now he sits there saying sweet I don't have to do much and I get an A....trying to get through to him that this is not an exceptionally good score or attitude was on deaf ears...he is unable to grasp the fact that this to future employers/university administrators is barely adequate.
Funny thing is he embraces the old school ideals of getting an A but won't look at the reality that this is a new academic scoring system and it is actually a lower achievement.
Our grading now is
Achieved with Excellence E The candidate has demonstrated in depth understanding of the material tested
Achieved with Merit M The candidate has met the criteria of the standard which demonstrates
substantial knowledge of the material tested
Achieved A The candidate met the criteria of the standard to a level which demonstrates
adequate understanding of the material tested
Not Achieved N/A Fail
Now he has big dreams and is a bright kid but with this mentality these kids are going to fall flat.
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Do you guys take your kids to play tball or whatever sport and at the end of the season, everybody gets a trophy, do you give it back, saying my kid's team finished last place, he doesnt deserve it? finishing other than first, second or third place, is like getting an F. but you guys dont think about it that way. try telling your kid who just maybe played his best, but has no skill whatsoever how stupid he is for losing an easy game. You wont ever do that, would you?
I agreed with everything you said right up to that point here I am quoting. In fact...I am the one coach who gets applauded in our community because I do not allow trophies to be given on a team that I coach unless they win a league championship. There is only a plaque or certificate given out to the kids if they participate but do not win it all. BTW I don't stress winning but rather I stress having fun and learning the sport and if winning is a by product of that then great and it usually is. Kids don't learn that trophies are special and are something that they need to work for when they are given out just for participation.
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I agree, but can we take off the warnings on stuff like Preparation H about not taking it orally? :rofl
Oh I can think of many people who would benefit from taking that orally ;)
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(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/19/AR2010111902632.html)
lol why am I not surprised?