Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Urchin on July 13, 2001, 02:42:00 PM
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I know I'm not the only person that thinks the niki should be perked. But, just for the sake of argument, I want to hear from folks that like the niki the way it is.
My basic stance is that the Niki is an easy mode plane, with 4 cannons and a pretty good amount of ammo. I'd dearly love to see it perked, probably about the same price as the C-Hog, maybe a little more expensive because I think the Niki is a "better" plane, even though it hasn't seen the use that the C-hog had. My reasoning here is mostly selfish, by the way, and I won't make any bones about it. None of the planes that I fly have a snowballs chance in hell against a niki, unless the pilot is blind, mentally retarded, or both. And before anyone starts with the "J00 sux0rs, I kill nikis all the time" crap, and tries to insinuate that the problem lies with the pilot (i.e. me) and not the plane (109f4,g2,g10, 190a5,a8)- I'll say this. I'm not a bad pilot. I may not be the greatest stick ever to fly the LW birds, but I'm not bad either. I can handle most any plane out there in a fight, can fight to a draw with spits and La7's- the only plane that will get me 95% of the time regardless of E state or pilot "skill" is the Niki. And running from them gets rather old, as I'd make a rough guess that probably 40% of the planes I see are Nikis, probably another 30% are spits, maybe 20% are La7s and P51s, with the balance being covered by various other types. So, in my estimation, I have to run from 40% of the planes that I see because I know, realistically, I am going to get shot down if I engage them. And that doesnt even cover the more intelligent niki pilots that climb above 10k to go search for victims. Against those I may as well bail out when they get within 2k.
Anyways, I can cover one argument for you guys before you even say it.
Argument 1 - "The Niki pilots will just move on to the next "best" plane.
My answer - Fine by me. They'll either go to the Spit (which would be great, because I cna hold my own against them), or the LA7 (which at least has a few weaknesses, and I can generally fight them on even terms).
Either of the two replacement planes I could fight with, and generally say the best pilot won, no matter what the outcome was. When I fight a niki, I pretty much have to say the best PLANE won- no matter how good the pilot was.
As always, I like to see a lot of responses, even if you don't agree with me.
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Do you have a more difficult time against the F4u-1C or the N1K?
AKDejaVu
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Honestly, I would say I have a more difficult time aginst the Niki. When I first started playing, C-Hogs would tear me up because I wasn't a good enough pilot to avoid the guns. I still have a losing record aginst them in fighters (I'm 9-7 because I shoot em down in M16s and Osties). I think I am something like 1 and 5 in fighters against them, while I'm not sure of my record against Nikis, I think it is a little better (K/D wise). However, my record against D-Hogs was about the opposite (I think something like 7 or 8 to 1). This would lead me to believe that with the C-Hog, the GUNS are what made the plane good, not the flight characteristics. With the Niki, it is the exact opposite. The way the plane flies makes it incredibly easy for a pilot to shoot other planes down. While my record in it was rather poor (only about a 2-1 k/d), it was because I flew the Niki a helluva lot less cautiously than I fly a 190 or 109. I basically plunged into furballs with reckless abandon, fought 3-4 to 1 odds, and I STILL managed to get a 2-1 K/D in the thing. If I fly the niki like I flew a "regular" plane (i.e. my normal rides), I am sure I could rack up a 5 or 6 to 1 k/d in it. I don't think I could do the same thing in a C-Hog, because it is not an easy plane to fly.
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Also.. one thing to point out:
Any argument based on "I can't beat this one plane so it should be perked" means that the next plane to be perked is the one you fly.
AKDejaVu
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In order for a perk system to be truly functional every single unit must be perked to some value.
For unperked machines go to the training or dueling arena.
Y
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blah blah blah...perk this perk that.
If ya perk the N1K2 then ya gotta un-perk the F4U1-C...or else then the Spit or La-7 is next in line.
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I have out flown good n1k pilots with a 51 or even a spit<--another easy mode plane , with lead/lag turns, vertical flight, as well as overall better E managment.
The fact of the matter is though, is that the n1k here is so easy(not even challenging to fly) that almost anyone can get in it and shoot almost anything down. For the most part, People go and fly only planes that are simple to fly in. Expamples are the Spits/n1k/ and sometimes zeros.
People that fly planes like the P47, P51, 190A8 and 109's are actually earning more of thier kills because it takes more of a thought-out way of flying IMO. The Fight is almost never on your terms in aircraft like these unless YOU make it that way.
In contrast, the n1k Has some super power to always wind up climbing to almost anything given close E states, has the ability to still manouver at 50mph(EFFECTIVELY) as well as regain energy(in the form of speed) as fast as almost anything. Along with all these amazing feats, it Turns like a spit V and zero.
Its simple to fly, the Fight is almost always on YOUR terms if your in a n1k, and 1 micro burst from the cannons will tear a b17 in half. SO HERE is the reasonong behind why this thing is flown so much.
I never fly it, I would rather Fly and fight in somthing that is outclassed in every respect to know that I actually won the battle, not the PLANE, (in the case a n1k)
Another thing I notice about the n1k is that IT takes a Massive amount of damage before it is taken down. WTF? I thought this thing was a modified zero with bigger engine !? are'nt we talkin almost fabric here? :rolleyes:
hehe anyway, yep.. perk the stooooopid thing =) its really a modified F-16 with UFO antigravity boosters disguised as an WWII fighter :D
i'd say about as much as tempest 70 perkies? :D
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long boring response ahead!
i would like to see the n1k stay as is for a few reasons.
1st - not everyone flies a plane that is vunerable to the n1k. i imagine there are planes in the planeset that turn great with a n1k. my frustration comes from having to outclimb or outrun them knowing full well that a 109 isnt going to turn with them (well the 109f4 is better here but only for one turn or so). it is boring having to fight that way. the point is not everyone flies doggy turners so i have to think it is my problem for choosing the 109 and not the arenas.
2nd - i feel the la7 is a much bigger threat. it does great in a lot of areas the n1k doesnt and a perked n1k will = an arena full of la7s. i'd rather go up against an n1k any day as i havent really found a weakness in this bird....YET :)
3rd - it is a consession between gameplay and strict simulation. on the one hand you have guys like the 56th fighter group - zemkes wolfpack who learn a specific plane and the strategies that go with it and fly it right regardless of what everyone else is doing and could care less about their scores or recognition and have a good time doing it. on the other hand you have the guy that gets 2 hours a week between work and his ol bag naggin and just wants to kill stuff without climbing for an hour or listening to his stall horn go off constantly. he will never have time to learn a 'real plane' and i say he shouldnt have to - even if it is at my expense. it is still a community game.
my opinion only but,i guess i am surprised that in a wwii sim, people would gravitate to the n1k anyway. i mean i probably read one paragraph about the n1k before this game because it was pretty insignificant and i have been a plane enthusiast since i could read maybe earlier. i dont get why people arent drawn to p51s, p47s, p38s, zeros, 109s, 190s, b17s and spits etc.......why some obscure japanese plane? fortunately, imo the game still accommodates both gamers and history/plane buffs.
i like a challenge so i fly a harder plane. lots of people do and sometimes very quietly. i like finding them because i have a lot of respect for people like that. p51B guys for example. i die almost as much as i succeed but i have fun doing it and that's the point. if someone is flying an n1k to drive their score so what - its kind of a pyrhic victory because at the end of the day you just have a bunch of n1k kills! anytime you use a gimick to get kills you are never going to be satisfied with the numbers. if people would kinda disperse their plane choice on their own there would be no reason to perk it. i dont think anyone would mind seeing them in less numbers. yikes long post! hang in there urch!
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Pyro has acknowledged that there needs to be "work and changes" done on the N1K's FM. I'll take a "wait 'n see" attitude until then.
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There is one part of this post that I agree with. And I’m not sure about it because I know very little about the N1K1.
Another thing I notice about the n1k is that IT takes a massive amount of damage before it is taken down. WTF? I thought this thing was a modified zero with bigger engine !? aren’t we talking almost fabric here?
Inevitably it seems like it take 2 to 3 burst to kill this plane even if I’m at the perfect range and getting sustained hits. But then again I’ve seen them fall apart with very short burst as well.
RWY
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Probably a better way to regulate planes that are 'too' good would be to limit their use to a certain % of the total planes in air. That way newbies and limp-wrists ( :oP) could still fly them, but not when half the arena is upping in them already.
A realistic amount of n1ks could be 4-8% of the total amount of planes.
Same could be applied also to rest of the uberplanes, this was the situation in real life also. The best planes were limited in numbers and only flown by the few and the chosen. Then if those uberplanes would be 'manufactured' in certain factories, it would make an awesome strat target.. End the flow of uberplanes from the enemy.
If 202 would be the only plane with unlimited availability, you'd have 10x more variety in the arena.
Now there will probably be some attacking with 'I will quit the day I cant fly what I want' comments.. Well you don't always get the railgun or stimpack in quake either.. - you're still playing it ain't you?
[ 07-13-2001: Message edited by: MrRiplEy ]
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Also.. one thing to point out:
Any argument based on "I can't beat this one plane so it should be perked" means that the next plane to be perked is the one you fly.
AKDejaVu
Good point Deja, and there is really nothing that I can say to argue with you, other than to say I relly doubt any of the planes I fly will be perked, because they all have weaknesses to go with their strengths.
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blah blah blah...perk this perk that.
If ya perk the N1K2 then ya gotta un-perk the F4U1-C...or else then the Spit or La-7 is next in line.
Sling- I have to disagree with you on this, although we do at least agree that those two planes would be the most likely to see an increase in use if the niki were perked. Again, this is only from a LW-centric point of view, because those are the planes I have the most experience in.
109 vs. Niki - the G10 is the only one with an even chance of surviving the fight. It can do this by running. The other models cannot outrun a Niki, nor can they outclimb, outdive, outturn, or outroll one.
190 vs Niki - the D9 has the best chance to outrun one, other than that it is screwed. The A5 is screwed no matter what, the A8 has a chance if it can hit with a 30mm snapshot, or get lucky in a HO pass. If the fight goes for more than 1 or 2 passes, the 190 will lose. If there is someone out there that flies a 190 and can kill Niki's, please let me know, because I haven't found a way to yet.
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I tried n1k for several sorties and you really cant lose a 1vs1 fight in it. If the opponent is cautious and wise, you still can bore him with your break turns, which will soon get him in making mistakes.
Only the n1k vs n1k fights get tough, but this is with every plane.
Pyro has mentioned, that there will be fixes to n1k FM, so this isnt really necessary dead horse beating.
I havent had troubles with them since i started flying Yak again, but before that the 190:s i flew (not dora) got almost no chances against it.
With Yak vs N1K, the flights get LONG and you have to usually bleed his alt to deck, which makes him dog food. But in AH, long flights are risky, since friends usually arrive soon looking for action.
I would imagine, that with good snapshotting capability (p47, typhoon etc.) n1k:s habit for break turns can actually give opportunities.
Edit: Urching, nothing is so satisfying, that to get n1k HO fixated on your 190a8..=) But A8 has so many flaws, that its only SENSIBLE use is buff hunting.
[ 07-13-2001: Message edited by: Tuomio ]
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my opinion only but,i guess i am surprised that in a wwii sim, people would gravitate to the n1k anyway. i mean i probably read one paragraph about the n1k before this game because it was pretty insignificant and i have been a plane enthusiast since i could read maybe earlier. i dont get why people arent drawn to p51s, p47s, p38s, zeros, 109s, 190s, b17s and spits etc.......why some obscure japanese plane? fortunately, imo the game still accommodates both gamers and history/plane buffs.
MrFish- the Niki may have been insignificant historically, but since people have a tendency (and I am no different) to equate "kill-stats" with skill, many people gravitate to a plane that is easy to get kills in.
Also, about the LA7. A 190 will outroll one, so generally you can get away even if you can't kill one 1v1. The 109g2 and f4 will actually outturn them at low speeds, so if you can get them into a low and slow turn fight or scissors you will win.
About the Niki damage - I have never noticed that it is any tougher than most planes in the game. A solid shot from a 20mm will kill them just as easily as any other plane, the problem is getting into a position where you can take a shot. I have noticed that some planes SEEM to be frailer than the others- the P38 is a noticable example. I can generally shoot these down with the 12mm MGs in the later model 190s and 109s. The 190A series also seems to be rather frail, it will lose its engine a lot more readily than any other plane in the arena (with the possible exception of the P38).
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I sure know that if RWY is taking a burst at the n1k hehe THEY are gonna be GOOD bursts! :D your an excellent shot.
What this translates into is... the amount of lead that rwy is putting into that n1k is enuff to bring down at least 2 normal planes ;) so something may be uber :D
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Why does everyone still consider perking an airplane as some sort of death chant... the C-Hog is far from dead. It mearly helped thin the herd a bit and made C-Hog pilots have a little more caution and not just HO everything that moves. 8 perk points ain't squat, it's not like risking 70 in a tempest since you can earn 8 perkies in 3 kills if you land them (in some planes).
Just my opinion from my observations and whatever numbers have been posted on the use of the C-Hog. You never hear "Waaaa, all I see are C-hogs and they kill me" anymore, nor are there any shortage of them in the MA.
On top of that, perking the C-Hog dropped my BBS reading down a bunch since there weren't 10 threads a day on some "damn C-Hog killed me" topic. Bummer that the "damn N1K killed me" thread count has picked up...... :)
-Soda
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The 190A series also seems to be rather frail, it will lose its engine a lot more readily than any other plane in the arena (with the possible exception of the P38).
The Yak 9U is just as bad about losing the engine - and seems to have a tail of glass like the P38.
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Urchin, I like your argument, really. You make no qualms about it...you don't like the plane and you have a tough time fighting it and that's why you want it perked. I would suggest talking to St. Santa. When I flew the N1K exclusively, the was the LuftWaffle who most consistantly handed my arse to me! :)
Deez, after reading your post, I'm reminded of weekend drives back home in Wisconsin with the windows down, as you'd drive past a dairy farm and smell something similar to what you just posted.
1 micro burst from the cannons will tear a b17 in half
If you aim effectively at a B17s wing or wingstem, you can make fairly short work of them if your aim is good. Remember, those are 4 20mm cannons coming in at convergence there. If you aim directly at the center, you won't have nearly as much success.
Along with all these amazing feats, it Turns like a spit V and zero.
Simply not true. If you meet a competent pilot in a Spit V or a Zeke while you're flying a Niki, you'd best turn tail and run.
has the ability to still manouver at 50mph(EFFECTIVELY)
Did you model the Niki in X-plane and found that it does this there? Because, it doesn't do it in AH.
I thought this thing was a modified zero with bigger engine !? are'nt we talkin almost fabric here?
No, it wasn't a modified Zero. I haven't noticed that it consistantly takes more damage to down one than any other fighter.
The main thing to realize is that Pyro is looking into inaccuracies in the N1K's flight model, so it really doesn't matter how it performs now.
Regardless of how it turns out, those of you who continue to look down your nose at guys who decide to fly certain planes really aren't worth listening to anyway. Continue to think that whatever plane you fly makes you elite and special, and the rest of us will continue having fun.
SOB
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In order for a perk system to be truly functional every single unit must be perked to some value.
You spit dweebs should pay a price just as surely as the poor decrepid gameboyz in their Chogs. P51s, Fw190s, Yaks, B17s, PNZRs...everything has a value relative to everything else.
The best perk system will work in this manner. I sense this is the way it will have to go eventually or it just wont be worth much more than it is (not much).
What about the newbies? How will they manage to build any value if they cant take off (let alone bring guns to bare)?
Simple, send the dweebs to the training arena where there are no perks (this conecpt has even extra merit as it might entice the nintendo crowd to go there as well...wait a minute, then there wouldnt hardly be anyone left in the MA LMAO :P
But I digress....Once the dweeblets have their pubic hairs sprouting they can venture into the place where the men with balls play.
zzzzzzzz
Y
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Damn near the slowest plane in AH, zeke,Ki,spit, yak all out turn it, cannons fire too slow, most planes can scissor threw the burst, climb rate is horrible.
The problem is 1 vs. 1 it is an over all great killing machine, thats the point Most fights in WW2 were not 1 vs 1, but flights against flights, thats where the fights are won, with good wingman tactics. 1 vs 1 Niki will shine.
I fly the N1k2 alot, the flight characteristics is best suited for MY gameplaying style, I won't fly a plane for YOUR satifation, I fly for MY satifaction. Don't take away my fun. Perk the N1k2 and the spit La-7 is next and after that.......
IF, and a big IF the N1k2 FM is wrong, correct it, I will adapt and overcome. Don't perk one of the few IJN planes in the game.
Face it, the N1k2 was a great plane.
Nuff said...
NUTTZ
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hehe For all the Spit/n1k flyers that complain or to better term it... Speak on behalf of how much they like to fly what they like to fly... and that the aircraft they choose Just happens to be a Spit/n1k.
I say YOU FLY an easy mode plane :D Im not being some elitist dork, but Id rather fly somehthing that takes more then just yank bank and requires just a bit more pilot intervetion to win.
I have seen a few films of really good pilots in inferior turning/fast planes destroy turners with ease. They are the really good flyers because they took acm to the highest level and beat the better suited aircraft with an inferior one.
Drex.. comes to mind
I have never seen a rolling planeset before, but from what it sounds like by my reading, it would surely clear alot of this n1k/later war planes issue. If we all had a type of Historical matchup for a Main arena that could clear alot of this up to but yeah whatver hehe dunno if thats gonna happen.. anyway...
yeah I agree with whoever said that the n1k is how it is right now.. and it shouldnt matter because its supposed to be fixed.(hehe "nutered") SP?
:D
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Leave the planes alone and perk the cv flak.
Sax
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Hehe, SOB, I never did make any bones about the fact that basically I want it perked because I can't handle it, did I? I try to be as honest as I possibly can, whenever I possibly can- and yes, the fact that it is such a common plane makes it even worse. As a for instance- I have a tough time with P47s as well, when I am flying my 190 or 109- because the capabilities of the planes are fairly similar. But when the 47 shoots me down, I think "Damn, that guy was good"- not, man.. the P47 needs to be perked. I wish I could say the same thing about the Niki, but I can't.
NUTTZ- I am not trying to "ruin anybodies fun". I am sorry that you see it that way. But as it stands now, the Niki is so much superior to most of the planes in the set that it either A. needs to be perked, or B. needs to be "toned-down". I am in favor of toning it down if the performance was not historically what it is like in the game- however, if it really WAS this good in real life, I think toning it down for the sake of gameplay is wrong. In that case, I think the right thing to do would be to make it a reasonably cheap perk, to cut down on the number of people flying it. Don't get me wrong, I know the 109 was not a great turning plane, I'm not asking to be able to turnfight with the Niki. What I am asking for is the opportunity to engage more than 60% of the planes that I see.
Anyways, this last part is to SOB and Deez-
1 micro burst from the cannons will tear a b17 in half
If you aim effectively at a B17s wing or wingstem, you can make fairly short work of them if your aim is good. Remember, those are 4 20mm cannons coming in at convergence there. If you aim directly at the center, you won't have nearly as much success.
Along with all these amazing feats, it Turns like a spit V and zero.
Simply not true. If you meet a competent pilot in a Spit V or a Zeke while you're flying a Niki, you'd best turn tail and run.
has the ability to still manouver at 50mph(EFFECTIVELY)
Did you model the Niki in X-plane and found that it does this there? Because, it doesn't do it in AH.
I thought this thing was a modified zero with bigger engine !? are'nt we talkin almost fabric here?
No, it wasn't a modified Zero. I haven't noticed that it consistantly takes more damage to down one than any other fighter.
Point 1- I don't believe that the cannons on the Niki are any better than any other cannons in the game. In fact, I don't even have a problem with the much maligned LW cannons- if you set your convergence right you can hit accurately out to about d500.
Point 2- No, it doesn't turn like a Spit or Zeke, but it DOES outturn everything else in the arena, as far as I know. Nuttz said that the Yak and Ki can outturn it.. I honestly do not think that is accurate. I say this because I can outturn a Yak or a Ki in a 109F4- and a Niki can outturn me.
Point 3- I think the 50mph example is a slight exageration, but it does have an extremely low stall speed, maybe 75-80mph. It is VERY difficult to rope-a-dope Nikis, because they can hang on the prop for so long.
Point 4- Covered that earlier, I've never noticed it taking any more damage than any other plane, when I get in a position to kill them I usually can.
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Originally posted by Urchin:
Hehe, SOB, I never did make any bones about the fact that basically I want it perked because I can't handle it, did I
Not at all, and I like it! :) Nothing wrong with having an opinion, but some (Deez) choose to mask it with other arguments and exaggerations, which annoys me.
You're right about the low nose-over speed and the hanging on the prop. One tip for you tho' (and this is from my experience flying the thing), when the Niki is hanging on it's prop like that, it's prime meat. Nothing it does at that point will be fast, they just have to slowly move the stick and give some rudder to bring the nose down and dive for some speed. They can spray and maybe get a lucky shot at that point, but accurate aiming is pretty much out of the question. If you can rope 'em to that point and hold until they start to nose over, they're yours. And I was serious about talking to St. Santa...that bastard had my number every time.
Oh, and to Deez. I was countering your obviously false statements and it has nothing to do with my choice of aircraft. My main ride of choice now is the P51B, which makes me no more or less a pilot than someone who flies a N1K or any other plane. It's my horrible gunnery and often amusing ACM that makes me less of a pilot than most.
SOB
[ 07-13-2001: Message edited by: SOB ]
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-double post-
[ 07-13-2001: Message edited by: SOB ]
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Originally posted by Tuomio:
I tried n1k for several sorties and you really cant lose a 1vs1 fight in it. If the opponent is cautious and wise, you still can bore him with your break turns, which will soon get him in making mistakes.
Only the n1k vs n1k fights get tough, but this is with every plane.
In a turnfight with pilots of equal skill, a Spit V will eat the N1K for breakfast, lunch, and dinner... then go back for seconds.
-- Todd/DMF
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I have out flown good n1k pilots with a 51 or even a spit<--another easy mode plane , with lead/lag turns, vertical flight, as well as overall better E managment.
LOL! So this is a qualifier for the babble about to come?
For the most part, People go and fly only planes that are simple to fly in. Expamples are the Spits/n1k/ and sometimes zeros.
Did this somehow progress into a "turn fighters are too easy" argument? You really threw the Zeke in there? Are you serious?
People that fly planes like the P47, P51, 190A8 and 109's are actually earning more of thier kills because it takes more of a thought-out way of flying IMO.
LOL AGAIN! Some of the fastest aircrafts in the arena. Granted, the 109's aren't all fast.. but the G-10 sure is. The A-8 is the second fastest 190... and the P-51? You have zero argument there. You are simply saying that BnZ is the only real way to fight... and anyone that turns is flying in easymode.
bah
The Fight is almost never on your terms in aircraft like these unless YOU make it that way.
LOL! Remember.. you had the P-51 and 109G-10 in there. Those two planes are very easy to dictate terms with. Oh, wait.. are you saying that someone else must fly against you in a manner that allows you to use your plane's strengths against them? Or are you saying that any plane that can turn to avoid a fast plane should be perked?
In contrast, the n1k Has some super power to always wind up climbing to almost anything given close E states, has the ability to still manouver at 50mph(EFFECTIVELY) as well as regain energy(in the form of speed) as fast as almost anything. Along with all these amazing feats, it Turns like a spit V and zero.
LOL! Rope-a-dope on N1K2s is one of my favorite tricks. Bring on that ultimate E. Of course, turning inside of an N1K2 that is going to fast and nailing him with a decent lead shot from my F6F is a kick too. Nothing like going up against pilots that actually believe the babble you are spewing here. Of course, they find out the hard way just how wrong you are.
Its simple to fly, the Fight is almost always on YOUR terms if your in a n1k, and 1 micro burst from the cannons will tear a b17 in half. SO HERE is the reasonong behind why this thing is flown so much.
The N1K2 has the 14th best record against armed bombers (C-47 not included). Please... tell me again how uber it is. I love to hear these tall tails.
I never fly it,
Yet, you know every aspect of its abilities. Every neuance of its handling, gunnery and stall performance. Amazing.
I would rather Fly and fight in somthing that is outclassed in every respect to know that I actually won the battle, not the PLANE, (in the case a n1k)
Point 1:
I've never had any problem against an aircraft that was just sitting on the runway doing nothing... no matter how it was modeled. I've only had problems against planes that were actually being flown. The pilot does the killing.... not the plane.
Point 2:
If you feel it is necessary to fly at a disadvantage to satisfy your own ego then feel free. I mean... don't fly a plane because you like it, or because its been your favorite since you were a child, or because it suits your style. Instead, fly a plane that sucks for the simple reason that you can come here and insult anyone that flies a better plane. Of course, the convenient part is that you'll always have an excuse when you get killed.
Oh.. wait... you fly the P-51D. What were you saying about flying something that is outclassed in every respect? :rolleyes:
Another thing I notice about the n1k is that IT takes a Massive amount of damage before it is taken down. WTF? I thought this thing was a modified zero with bigger engine !? are'nt we talkin almost fabric here?
Can't say I've noticed that... and I'm using the same armament as you. Guess its just a matter of perspective there. The perspective being wether your intentions are to come here and complain about the uberness of a plane, or you simply look forward to shooting the next one down.
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The N1K2 is a very good aircraft. It is one of, if not the best in the arena. That's it.
Hating it because its one of the best in the arena is petty. Insulting the people that fly it because its one of the best in the arena is petty. Feeling that what you fly and how you fly it makes you better than someone else is egotistical. You are fitting each of those deezcamp.
Urchin, I undestand your frustration... I have the same difficulties with the La-7 at times. This post is directed at people that simply feel the need to insult people for flying a plane type, then back up the insults with false statements.
AKDejaVu
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hehe ak =) Yeah I must be wrong theres NOTHING wrong with the N1k lol, I guess Hitech is making a mistake by looking into fixing it... :rolleyes:
lol whatever, think what your going to think, live how your going to live, and feel what your going to feel lol(wait according to many feel is not an option lol) ... Theres no good talking to many people here. And again.. There Must BE NOTHING wrong with the n1k :rolleyes: you can keep thinking that :D
Ill just continue flying the planes that take more thought and planning in order to fly effectively in all situations :D
Others can fly endless unrealistic 200 foot off the ground quake style furballs in spits and n1ks :D to be realistic :rolleyes:
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hehe ak =) Yeah I must be wrong theres NOTHING wrong with the N1k lol, I guess Hitech is making a mistake by looking into fixing it...
No.. I never said there was nothing wrong with it. Then.. I never said EVERYTHING was wrong with it either.
This incessant need to villify a plane is getting downright rediculous. The belief is it retains E a tad bit too well. I'm missing where you mentioned squat about that in your post. Nope, instead you talk about its uber cannons "1 micro burst from the cannons will tear a b17 in half'... its low speed handling "has the ability to still manouver at 50mph(EFFECTIVELY)" and also mention the "easy mode" of two other planes that aren't being looked into.
Basically... you are full of toejam.
Ill just continue flying the planes that take more thought and planning in order to fly effectively in all situations
Ah.. yes.. now the P-51 is becoming the thinking man's plane.
A word of advice... avoid any aircraft that requires thought to fly. You don't meet the minimum requirements.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by Urchin:
I know I'm not the only person that thinks the niki should be perked. But, just for the sake of argument, I want to hear from folks that like the niki the way it is.
......
I rarely fly the N1, and I don't think it should be perked.
Two reasons:
1. I have no idea what the makers intended to use the perk system for. I have posted this question in the Gameplay area, and I have read the players comments and understand what many players think the perk system should be used for. I think the perk system is backwards. We should not take the easy flying planes away from the new guys with few perk points.
2. If this plane is perked, there will just be another plane that will need to be perked. Where is this going? Only the pilots with lots perk points can aford to fly the best planes.
I would prefer to learn how to deal with N1s before perking them.
Gunner <CAF>
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Ak you are very sad indeed,... oh well though you fit in with a vast majority of the rest of the world.
You must fly a spit or n1k ? It hurts you so much of talk about them? You must be one of those that go and look to mindlessly furball? how wonderfull :D
As for the spit/n1k
Oh,..how could anyone argue, a Spit/n1k are soooooo (Un)forgiving, lol hehe whatever. :rolleyes:
You put anyone that is new into a plane such as the n1k or Spit (wich is the case for all that usually just start out) and they find it easier to fly than other planes.
GEE I WONDER WHY? Answer: BECAUSE they are SIMPLE TO FLY. you know OPPOSITE of COMPLEX?
Does that register with you? Can you understand that? wow I would hope so.
:rolleyes:
My point beyond the fact that the n1k is on crack,... is that COMPARED to other planes the n1k/spit are SIMPLE to fly and REQUIRE less care and SKILLFULL application of ACM when in co-alt/E environment.
Heres a litte scenerio that maybe you can even understand. Say you have a n1k doing 300 and a P51 Doing 300 and they are both laterally seperated by 2k headed in the same direction at 10k. Now they turn to each other and begin the fight. WHO HAS the advantage? and why?
MOST likey the n1k. IT can match anymove and also OUT perform it(UFO) :D compared to the 51. THE 51 pilot will have to BEAT the n1k's ABILITIES given an = skill level between pilots.
but whatever lol your going to debate this too so bring your nonsense.
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I just want to say that i think the Niki is ok as is. I don't think f4c should be perked, personally i think the f4d is a better plane. by the way i'm usually in a la7 or f4d, sometimes i'll stray to niki (if being vulched) or spit.
BeachS
483rd Tactical Fighter/Bomber Group
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Ak you are very sad indeed,... oh well though you fit in with a vast majority of the rest of the world.
Man.. does your nose get in the way when you look down on the vast majority?
You must fly a spit or n1k ? It hurts you so much of talk about them? You must be one of those that go and look to mindlessly furball? how wonderfull
How do you figure? Because I don't think the N1K2 should be perked? Because I think you exagerate and outright lie to try to prove a point? How does that determine what plane I fly?
As for the spit/n1k
Oh,..how could anyone argue, a Spit/n1k are soooooo (Un)forgiving, lol hehe whatever.
Ummmm... you lied. I'm not saying anything about the aircraft other than pointing out what you said was wrong.
You put anyone that is new into a plane such as the n1k or Spit (wich is the case for all that usually just start out) and they find it easier to fly than other planes.
Ah... I see...
So... how will one plane not be easier to fly than another? How is that possible? Please... tell everyone so we can all learn from your infinite wisdom.
Of course... we've moved from "UBER!" to "easy to fly".
GEE I WONDER WHY? Answer: BECAUSE they are SIMPLE TO FLY. you know OPPOSITE of COMPLEX?
Does that register with you? Can you understand that? wow I would hope so.
Ummmm... complex? What plane is complex? Are you sitting here trying to tell me that the P-51 is a complex aircraft? SOOOOO much more complex than the N1K2 or the Spitfire... yeah. I wonder why I'd have such a tough time comprehending that? Could it be that it makes no sense?
MOST likey the n1k. IT can match anymove and also OUT perform it(UFO) compared to the 51. THE 51 pilot will have to BEAT the n1k's ABILITIES given an = skill level between pilots.
Ah.. so it comes down to you simply believing that the N1K2 is a better plane than the P-51. Well... that may be because in most aspects it is a better plane.
There is a double edged sword that is wielded by love muffines like yourself. It says that you are a better pilot because you fly inferior aircraft (like the P-51D :rolleyes: ), but if you should lose to someone in a superior plane... it will only be because of the plane and not the pilot. You get the best of both worlds.
You have picked your poison... its time you just shut up and swallowed.
AKDejaVu
[ 07-14-2001: Message edited by: AKDejaVu ]
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Originally posted by DeeZCamp:
MOST likey the n1k. IT can match anymove and also OUT perform it(UFO) :D compared to the 51. THE 51 pilot will have to BEAT the n1k's ABILITIES given an = skill level between pilots.
This doesn't make any sense. Which abilities? If you're talking about turning ability or E retention, then the N1K definitely has an edge. If you're talking about top speed, high speed handling, and high alt performance, then the P-51 clearly outshines the N1K.
Wouldn't a N1K pilot require as much superior skill to counter a P-51 flying to its advantages as vice-versa? Why not? Because the N1K is easier? Maybe easier to turn, but that's just one of many abilities that planes possess.
-- Todd/DMF
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wow, AK I have to just say it you are not to bright are you :)
I guess you could not understand that a N1k is more user friendly(ala.. easier to Fly).
Also I think you need to learn how to intrepret(well heck there was'nt much)what you have read. Lets Think back to when you read "pilots with = skill) ahh... remeber that sentence? comeon now try to recall it.
Now lets see if you can understand this,...
(lets go for a stretch, say an F-16 is up against a 51) Say the pilots have both the same level of experience and flight ability. Well it is only obvious who the eventual winner would be. THE guy with the BETTER weapon to get the job done. duh.. so yes IT would come down to pilot vs PLANE not only the skill level of the other pilot.
Even trying to debate this would show how jacked up your mind is. lol
As for the n1k being uber ... It is.. as for it being easy to fly IT is :D no problems here lol
hehe perk it, dont perk it who cares now lol, you know what?.. Everyone should fly n1ks so the non n1k pilots should take it as a complement, becuase I know that it is SO easy to fly and SO ultra uber that it shows that they are taking the easy way out. :D
I look to fly challenging aircraft so that I know I had to out fly the better plane when in any given situation. haha whatever though, your a lost cause with this issue :)
Oh yeah Ak, ive been telling lies.. Lies lies lies.. hehe I guess everyone else who has seen that the n1k has issues that need to be adressed also is lying lol.
:D :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by DeeZCamp:
(lets go for a stretch, say an F-16 is up against a 51) Say the pilots have both the same level of experience and flight ability. Well it is only obvious who the eventual winner would be. THE guy with the BETTER weapon to get the job done. duh.. so yes IT would come down to pilot vs PLANE not only the skill level of the other pilot.
Again, this depends on who fights which fight. If an F-16 tries to turnfight a P-51, chances are it'll get a butt full of lead. But obviously, a smart F-16 pilot will use the strengths inherent to his plane (which is just about everything except turning ability).
Of course, such an example is just silly, as the performance gap between the N1K and the P-51 is nowhere near the difference between a P-51 and an F-16.
You see, where you and I disagree with is who would win an equally-skilled N1K and P-51 fight. I think the P-51, after awhile, would own such a fight.
-- Todd/DMF
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Wow deezcamp...
What truly amazes me is that you feel you are smarter than the vast majority.
AKDejaVu
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If you don't fly a spit , your a loser or a runner ? The only way a 51 kills my spit is when they dive in from 20k and I don't see em or they jump me .. Oh BTW . there were 200ft. alt. furballs over England , so that is realistic . fun too
don't ya just hate these " my dad can beat up your dad ." threads :)
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I really do hate nikis, but somehow I honestly dont think they should be perked. I think the FM review that pyro has planned should help. Although I have squeaked about the niki as much or (much more? :)) than anyone, you have to admit it was always about the same thing, namely its verical performance/e-retention and IIRC this is one of the things pyro said before could be off in the FM. So I say there is no need to perk it, just learn tactics against it and wait for the new FM, which should resolve any issues. It is not an invincible plane, very good yes, with innaccurate FM yes, but not invincible. Now go out and blow up some of those flying turds, they really do look like big turds, dont they... :D
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it is very complicate subject.. specially when you look at angle, when a person asks to limit the use of another plane because its way better then his favorite ride.
You see, my favorite ride for this ToD has nothing to worry about from Spit's La-7's and N1k2's. The only plane that I have no chance against and it is quite common nowadays is P51D and less common P51B. They are just better than my Yak at any Altitude and do what I am doing to N1K, Spit and La7. B&Z me all the time. And they get away with that. now that pisses me off really bad and I have to admit that mustangs are my hated plane #1. :D
But coming back to the topic of this thread I have only one thing to say.. N1K's are used too much. I perfectly realize why is that so. what i dont see is a solution (aside that FM will be remodeled) of lowering the plane overall usage without cutting from paying customers fun. But it gets nowhere, as I am forced to have fights with Spits and N1Ks all the time, or at least the majority of the time. And that is not fun for me. I can imagine the sky full of 202's. Would it be fun for me to fight that plane exclusevly for whole day? Week? months? Its been too long for me.. more than a months I guess. :)
I guess what I want is seeing less Spit's and N1Ks. even if that would mean that there will be many more mustangs looking for me :) The whole Idea is to bring the Arena into balance and lowering Tempest perk cost will help a little IMO. The way it is now, you cant earn much in N1K or even Spit9. If we get some cool planes and have some perk value for them that will encourage ppl to get the perk points for planes... not for perks itself. Having a 70 point perk Tempest as the only perk fighter (i am not even talking about Ta152) is not helping situation much.
I am with both hands to vote for balance... if it means to perk everything then I am for perking everything. changing ENY value, advertisment, squad dedication to specific A/C.... i mean anything.
Looks like a crussade quest to me anyway :)
<S>
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Ok, I fly the Dhog. 1v1 I'm in trouble with most planes. I can snapshoot em but it's hard to kill em before i'm so slow i'm in trouble. I don't try 1v1. i like a crowd. the best situation for me is at least 3 planes on each side... The more the merrier. In that instance the nik is no, or only a minor threat, maybe the 4th or fifth most dangerous plane in the game. I can snapshoot him because he is allway occupied. I can run away it things get to tense. I can turn back when he breaks off from chasing me to fight the tail he has attracted...
The la7 is a nightmare tho. It can accelerate to my slow but diving hog. It can use the vertical to avoid me. It can even outurn me (that shouldn't happen). When I run low on ammo or fuel or when I just want to go home the nik is no threat but the lag is a nightmare.
If you are losing to a nik then you are not in the right fite or not fighting right. If you are losing to lags.... Not much you can do about that.
I also think niks seem overly tough tho.
lazs
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ALL planes should be perked based on the % of air-to-air kills they scored in the last tour. Anything under 5% would be un-perked. Every 1% over 5% would be a perk point. That way no one can argue that this or that plane should cost more than the other. It would also allow the Ta-152 and the Tempest to earn a real perk cost instead of an arbitrary one.
ra
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Laz- I can see where you would be in trouble 1v1 in a D-Hog. I also like to fly in a SMALL furball, maybe 3v3 or 4v4- because in that situation I can be rather inconspicious. 1v1 the 109F4 is not a bad plane- it is slow, but it climbs pretty well and turns pretty well (it can outturn an LA7). The problem I've been having lately is, when I'm not running into Niki's (who can rip the 109F4 a new hole), I'm running into spits and La7s together. This sucks for me bigtime, as I can get away from the Spits, butnot the LA7, who then forces me to slow down to fight him so the spits can catch up. Died a few times that way yesterday, hehe. Twice I would have had an LA7 who I dragged away from the spits, only to have the spits show up as I'm finally getting on the La7s tail.
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Twice I would have had an LA7 who I dragged away from the spits, only to have the spits show up as I'm finally getting on the La7s tail
Dont you feel the urge to whine a little when that happens? Spend 5-10 maybe 15 minutes to prepare a kill and see another enemy closing in at 400 mph blazing his guns at you? lol I have very little hair left because of things like that :)
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The fact of the matter is though, is that the n1k here is so easy(not even challenging to fly) that almost anyone can get in it and shoot almost anything down.
Wow, really? I never thought of it that way.
You make a great argument.
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raises hand i never got a kill in niki but... been killed the 3 times i flown it :)
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Originally posted by DeeZCamp:
hehe For all the Spit/n1k flyers that complain or to better term it... Speak on behalf of how much they like to fly what they like to fly... and that the aircraft they choose Just happens to be a Spit/n1k.
I say YOU FLY an easy mode plane Im not being some elitist dork, but Id rather fly somehthing that takes more then just yank bank and requires just a bit more pilot intervetion to win.
Actually, yes, you are being an elitist snob.
You are insulting eveyone who happens to like those aircraft.
You think the Zero is an easymode aircraft? Go try a tour in one. Its one of the most frusterating aircraft in the game now. Everybody simply runs from you. Sure, some people will turn with you, but most of the time you spend frantically trying to close to gun range. 800, 750, 710, 675, 650, 640, 635, 640, 680, 800, 950, 1.1, 1.3 and so on and so on. I can't tell you how many times I've seen number sequences like that in the icon range on enemy aircraft when I fly the Zero. I hope you never lose your SA, because as soon as you do some faster plane will come screaming in and kill you.
The best part of the experience for you would be in the fact that the Zero eats N1K2-Js for lunch. Most N1K2 pilots will try to turn with you, then you simply kill them.
Personally, from my perspective, it is far easier to fly things like the P-51D, La-7 and Fw190D-9 and survive than it is to do so in the Spitfire, Zero and even the N1K2.
Unlike some people who post on this board, I fly all aircraft. I fly some more than others, but I fly them all. There is no wonder plane that massively defies gravity or accelerates like an Su-27. The are errors here and there, but nothing like what you guys are accusing the N1K2 of having.
I happen to be a fan of RAF and IJN aircraft, I have been for a long time. Particularly of the Spitfire and Zero-Sen. I have recently taken a liking to the Mosquito FB.VI as well and I hope it is added soon.
Everything that AKDejaVu has said about this thread is absolutely true.
You guys have decided to rant on an entire section of the community and everybody who enjoys that style of flying. This thread is basically an insult to those of use that enjoy a good twisting and turning dogfight.
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Karnak- I didn't intend on the thread to take the direction it has taken. I fly the 109f4 probably about 20% of the time I'm on, and I fly the 190A8 as well- neither is fast enough to be a proper "runaway" plane, nor turny enough to be a turnfighter. I've also been flying the Ki61 in the past couple days- I like the firepower of it, but it is somewhat lacking in the speed department ;-).
Anyways, I guess what I want to say is I have no problem with folks that fly spits, zeros, or even really the Niki. If you like to turn and burn, thats great- I do more than my share of it in the 109F4. I really only have a problem with the Niki because I can't fight em to save my life, and they are so common as to make it tough for me to get into a fight on some days. Hell, I won't even TRY to fight a niki one on one in most situations- the exception is being an obvious bounce, although I am going to try to shy away from it now. Anyways, I want to bounce this off you guys and see what I did wrong.
I was flying the Ki-61, had just killed an La7 and a spit in it, so I was feeling pretty cocky. I was around 8k or so, and I see a Niki at around 2k, maybe d5 or so away. I flew over there, made a pass from the hi 6, he pulled around in a 360 so I just zoomed back up again. I pulled over in a loop, I was above and the distance said D2.3 (or something close), so I went back down. It looked to me like me pulled up to meet me when we were about d2.0 away (I was d2.0 above him.. which is how far in feet? Is that 2k feet or 2k yards?) He was still coming up as I went for the shot, he ended up shooting off one wing and my engine, not sure if I got any hits on him or not. I think he started shooting about d600, which is pretty normal in a HO situation. Anyways, what'd I do wrong here? I underestimate his speed or something? I figured that he had been low, and climbing, so maybe speed 200 would be about right, and he had prolly dove slightly as I came down to bounce him. So maybe speed 300 or so, and altitude prolly 1500 ( I wasnt looking all that closely at the gauges, but I dove from about 7k and was going 475 or so when I passed him). He then pulled around in a 360, which I would guess would drain off some speed (75 mph or so?), and levelled off,then about 15 seconds later pulled up to meet me coming down. I'm sorry I didn't film it, I didn't think to.
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I was d2.0 above him.. which is how far in feet? Is that 2k feet or 2k yards?
I can see by your expert observations in fact there is a problem here.
Geez guys, don't be so easy to flog here, it's getting to be silly.
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I personaly don't fly the N1K cos almost eveyone moans about them, so they have got a kind of stigma atached to them.Personaly i don't care much for them cos the don't really present much of a challenge to fly, but i dont want to see them perked cos which plane would be nexed.
I have never piloted a real plane so i dont know how acurate the flight model is, but why not just make it a little more dificult to fly :confused:
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Actually Creamo- I just asked a question. I had assumed that the distances in the game were in meters, or yards- both of which are around 3 feet per unit. If the distances are in FEET, that a whole different ballgame as far as I'm concerned. Being 2000 FEET above someone is nothing, being 2000 METERS above someone is quite a lot of height.
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Um, that's my point.
Im I the only one here getting this? lol
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Well, I'm honestly not getting it, so I guess you are the only one. If you know what the unit of measurement is, why not just tell me? It would probably me more helpful in the long run- although if you don't care about it you can continue your laughable "floggings".
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Yards.
Hooligan
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Not to drag this thread up again but at the time of this post I am 21 and 6 vrs nikis and all i fly is lw............ :)
dunno what the problem is .............
I had no particular prob with chogs accept their blue and ugly and every darn body was flyin um
I've seen Urchin fly and he has cleared my 6 numerous times and I find it hard to believe he isn't dropping um twice as much as i am..........
ps i have been flyin the zero but as jabo only .............. hell us lw guys need a carrier plane 109t maybe............ :)
well my 2 cents....................
(http://personal.jax.bellsouth.net/jax/t/y/tyr88/rot3jv44.jpg)
Rot 3
(red 3)
[ 07-16-2001: Message edited by: Wotan ]
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hmmm, my 2 cents worth :D
I have no probs with spits, yaks, la7's etc at all because they seem to be fairly closely modeled in relation to actual performance in RL except for at higher alts. At higher alts in AH, planes speeds and turn rates vary greatly from RL. example - P38 = P51 25k RL, AH Not!!
I have a problem with N1K because imo it is not modeled correctly, this ruins both my online playing time n also the RL N1K as well.
The reason I ASSUME this is because its weight to power ratio and its level speed, full power at optimum alt physically should prevent it from performing the way it does in AH. Unless there is some kinda of secret Japanese device which allows it to defy the laws of physics. Do the math n you'll see.
Another thing about N1K is there were only 428 models built, of these 428 some were trainers, some experimental / RnD and some carrier based with obviously reduced performance. Small amount produced a result of American raids on AC factories in Japan.
If i'm wrong and N1K did perform as it does in AH, I believe it still should be perked due to the rarity of it in the PAC.
N1K2-J stats
------------
Span: 11.97m
Length: 9.35m
Height: 3.96m
Wing Area: 23.5m2
Weight: normal 4000kg
Powerplant: 1990hp Radial
Performance: 369Mph at 18373ft
Production: 428 (all types)
compare above to this:
F6F-5 Hellcat stats
-------------------
Span: 13.06m
Length: 10.24m
Height: 3.99m
Wing Area: 31.03m2
Weight: 6991kg normal
Powerplant: 2000hp Radial
Performance: 380mph at 23,400ft
Production: 7870
now why then did the N1k2 I was flying yesterday coalt turn around 360 deg on hellcat out accelerate it and finally catch it in level flight before killing it with 1 ping? Because the N1K lost virtually no E during the turn, thats why N1K is so good, not because its fast, but because it does not realistically lose E during turns. Slower N1K still turns well as it did in RL but AH N1K seems to hold E so well, it almost always is closer to MST rate and thats why initially when you turn against N1K you seem to be getting a bead on him n then wow, he outturns you and faloop you die.
my opinion only, you may have another n thats fine with me
:D
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I would not go looking at how many were produced. i would look at how is flyies in the game.
if we start looking at production were do we draw the line 200? 400? 1000?
i am not a ww2 nut but i seem to recall the 190d9 there were only around 1000 made.
thats only twice the nik.
btw i dont really fly the nik. abd i think there is somethign wierd about it. but i dont think it is really to deadly. i have a hard time in it but then i dont like slow planes :)
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Ok, check this out:
Tonight was flying C-Hog, dove on N1K (gunman26), was prolly 1.5kd on his 6 when he spots me, he does a loop, I do split S, faloop faloop I die?
My initial E was greater, was closing on N1K, N1K goes up n over the top, while I go down and under, soon as I level ded.
How the hell does a slower plane pull a full loop and then catch a faster plane with more initial E after Split-S?
I tape it if you do'nt believe me.
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I agree with DMF. Niki's are no match for a spitV 1 on 1. I don't fly the plane simply because it doesn't seem to wingover anywhere close to a spitV. The guns are what makes it a killer. If they could just load those 4 cannons on to a V now. Ummmm :)
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This is just a bump ,really. Still seeing Nikis as at least half the planes I see... it is getting pretty whoopee irritating. Thats it.
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This dead horse stinks!
Let's at least get a fresh horse.
<<<Let's go out to the lobby....let's go out to the lobby....let's go out to the lobby and have our self a treat!>>>
OK...fresh horse here....beat it to death again.
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Urchin, I don't know what you expect really... other than to see less nikis in the arena. But you and I have talked a little bit about engaging these (as from my observations you aren't seeing and understanding what's happening very well, yet).
I know this is yer first online flight sim... so I would strongly suggest that you avail yourself of the myriad of resources out there to help you with your tactics, as I'm sure 99% of us have done at one time or another. They are all over the net. There are also some great AH trainers, it's a free resource to everyone, and well worth the time.
This is in no way meant to be offending... Just trying to help. Bump your flying and SA up a notch and perhaps nikis or any other plane won't give you such a hard time. Additionally you might have better luck expressing what exactly it *is* that is giving you such a headache.
Btw, imho you picked a worthy title for this thread. Why bump it with nothing to add?
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Nash, you are absolutely correct about my lack of SA. I generally have decent SA until I get on someones 6, at which point I generally concentrate on staying there and hope that a countryman will give me a "check 6" if I attract the attention of a bad guy. Sometimes, they even do it.
About my flying- I honestly consider myself a pretty good pilot. I make bad decisions sometimes, but I think I fly pretty well. Yes, without a doubt I could learn more "ACM", but to be quite honest with you I think I have hit a learning plateau. I've been playing for 3-4 months now. I think I have mastered "basic" ACM. What I have to do now is learn exactly how different planes perform, and the best way to do that is to fly them extensively. That is sort of the reason I think I am at a plateau, it took me 3 months to learn the ME109, at least to the point where I can generally give any plane (except the Niki) a run for it's money in a fight. To learn how to exploit all the other planes weaknesses, I think I'm looking at probably about two years to fly all of the planes for a couple tours each.
And Nash, this entire thread is NOT a personal attack on Niki pilots. I take it as a given that most people are going to take the easiest route to reach their goals. The Niki is the easiest plane in the arena to get kills in, so many people are going to fly it to achieve their goal, which is getting kills. You are an extremely competent pilot, and I'm sure you fly could fly every other plane as well as you fly the niki. Unfortunately, I think you are one of the very few REALLY good pilots flying the niki. Anyways, I'm basically just saying what I said before. I've actually come to realize that there is absolutely no point in squeaking about the niki (which is why I don't do it in the MA anymore). People are going to continue to fly it, until the next "best" thing comes along, at which point it will get dropped quicker than someone fighting Mike Tyson.
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The n1k2 is not the easiest plane in the arena to get kills in (by a good bit), it's simply the easiest plane in the arena to make excuses when killed by.
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Shrug, guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that. Though I am curious, in your opinion what IS the easiest plane to get kills in?
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For me, 109f4, the ultimate in vultched base defense. Well, that and IL-2. In general easier than niki are la5, la7, 190a5, spit ix, spit v (and seafire), and 109g2 off the top of my head.
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The Tempest comes to mind.... :)
But seriously, yeah I hear what yer saying Urchin. Never for a second think that you've hit a learning plateau though, as even Drex and alla them AW dos guys will tell you they still haven't (we're talkin' a decade of flying under their belts). But what you're doing is important (learning AC's relative strengths and weaknesses... it's one part of the equation).
You won't find the answers in these kinds of threads though... at least with the way you choose to word things (ie. "my basic stance is that the niki is an easymode plane"). I'm not sure what that means, but by your own definition of things it may be. However, from our engagements you have done things that were just clearly incorrect, and our conversations about them afterwards showed that you misread what was actually going on.
Like you said, it's an SA thing, and it will improve. As cheesy as it may be I do salute you for your attitude. And to get even more cheesy, there is no destination - it's all a journey... the most enjoyable points of which you are now at. Suck it all in and take lots of pictures. :)
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I'm not sure what this thread is about. I'm sure I've read some... maybe most.. of it at some point in time.
I read the word "niki", and must comment. It's the N1K2 here. Best way to defeat them is to not play on their terms. Keep a good seperation between you and them, and make sure you manage yourself in the vertical. You will never defeat a N1K2 in a pure sustained turn fight. Unless you are in a Zero, SpitV/SeaFire or a SpitIX very low on gas.
Playing with the N1K2 in his territory (turning with him) or trying to continue your dive past him after you've already dove on him is two of the many foibles a neophyte virtual pilot makes against a N1K2.
They CAN dive. The can NOT roll very fast if they get a lot of speed. Nor can they turn very sharply right away. Your best bet is, if you dive on them to never dive past them but instead level out and fly AWAY from him and eventually work that into altitude again so you can dive on him again. When you are running away from a N1K2 and he is close behind you, roll a few times if he begins to fire a few rounds at you. Extend away and decide your next attack.
I will come up with more ideas tommorrow after I've had some rest. ;)
-SW
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I thank you for your help in posting tactics to deal with them. Maybe it is not just the nikis, I seem to go through periods where I fly great, and periods where I kame stupid decisions and can't fly well enough to get myself out of them.
Actually the most recent example is I went up against 3 tempests 4 times in a row, and got promptly gangbanged every time. They were kinda making lazy slow circles a few K out from one of our bases, at about 10-12 k feet. Then they'd dive in 1 by 1, and there was no way to dodge them all. I'm actually STILL pissed about that. I'm just glad the X-36 joystick seems to be tougher than the Sidewinder I had, because I gave it a pretty nice toss after the 4th assrape.
To be honest, I don't even ENJOY flying the german planes anymore. I upped an La7 tonight and got 4 kills in my first sortie, and 3 in my second. I didn't do a thing differently then I normally do. I suppose I'm just not a good enough pilot to be good in the German planes.
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For me, 109f4, the ultimate in vultched base defense. Well, that and IL-2. In general easier than niki are la5, la7, 190a5, spit ix, spit v (and seafire), and 109g2 off the top of my head.
Hum.. I must salute you, because you are clearly a much superior pilot than me. I'll go through the list, and share my opinion of the planes.
109F4- nice turning. Still can't turn with N1k2 (Swulfe :p ), spit, or zeke. Slow. 1 20mm cannon with 150 rounds means you have to be an excellent shot to knock more than one or two people down. MGs useless.
109G2- still pretty nice turning. Still can't turn with above planes, add P38 to the list of planes it cant turn with. This lil guy is actually pretty fast, in my opinion. You have about a 50/50 shot at getting away from a spit or niki before the cannons shred you. I've actually had a lot of success with the G2 fighting La7s. Well, maybe not a lot, but the G2 is a good fight for an la7. See above for guns. Adding the 20mm gondolas hurts performance- it is hard to say exactly how much.
190A5- I really do like the 190A5. It is quick, responsive, and it dives well. Turning is about middle of the road- if you want to play it safe keep it fast and don't turn much. It is pretty slow on the deck, marginally faster than the spit9 and niki. You have about a 50/50 chance of getting away before the cannons shred you. (I prefer the A8's guns, but that plane is about as useful A2A as a Lanc is, in my opinion. Well, since we've already decided I'm a toejamty pilot, maybe thats where the problem lies).
Spits- Better turning than a Niki, worse everything else. A smart niki driver will tear them to shreds, a stupid one will try to turn with them. Of course, that holds true for LW planes as well.
La5 and La7- I really like these planes to. If any plane in the arena can be successful vs. the niki, it is these two. Turning is pretty good until you get slow, the 2 cannons are outstanding, in my opinion.
Acceleration and climbing are on par with the 109G10, and (for the La7) deck speed is much higher. I may agree with you that these planes are just as easy to get kills in as the Niki is. After all, I am a pretty crappy pilot and I am 8 and 2 in the La7 and 17 and 6 in the La5. I'm only 19 and 10 in the Niki, so I guess I do better in the LA series. Of course, I do better in all of them than I do in any of the German planes, which I have far more experience in.
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Oh, I forgot. The above won't mean a thing unless I put in a brief synopsis of how I see the Niki.
So, without further ado
N1K2- Excellent turning. Can't turn with a Spit or Zero, but anything else is dogmeat. Excellent acceleration. Excellent diving and climbing. Can't beat 4 cannons with 790 rounds for firepower (unless you are talking about the C-Hog, 4 hispanos can). Rather slow on the deck, it can outrun a 109F4 and has about a 50/50 shot at catching a 109G2. Oh, almost forgot- Stalls at about 75mph, so it can get tough to rely on zoom climbing to get away.
That just about does it for me, I think.
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And before I hit the sack, here is another thing I forgot to mention.
The n1k2 is not the easiest plane in the arena to get kills in (by a good bit), it's simply the easiest plane in the arena to make excuses when killed by.
How might you explain this?
Model Kills Deaths Kills / Deaths + 1
Bf 109F-4 1024 1323 0.7734
Bf 109G-2 1692 1536 1.1008
Fw 190A-5 2904 2554 1.1366
La-5FN 954 953 1.0000
La-7 10121 8368 1.2093
SpitMkIX 13521 13876 0.9743
SpitV 5739 6192 0.9267
SeaFire 3745 4570 0.8193
N1K2 19654 17303 1.1358
This took WAAY to much time to do. However, know that it is done, I'll ask some questions. Of the 8 planes that you said were easier to get kills in than the N1K2, 4 don't even have a 1 to 1 kill ratio. Are those planes easier to die in as well?
I can add up the kills that six of your eight "easy" planes have- and they fall 3,000 kills short of the N1K2's total. And that is added together. Have these planes not been "discovered" by the masses yet?
As an aside, I am really astounded to see that the total of the Spit9 and La7 kills are actually more than the N1K2's total. Granted, individually they both fall well short, but I didn't think the La7 was as common as the Spitfire (I assumed the spit was getting more usage, I tend to see more spits anyway).
Lastly, I want to ask something that appears, well, obvious to me. Perhaps it is just my "outlook", but with the N1K2 clearly being the most common plane in the arena, is it not clear that MOST people see it as the easiest plane to get kills in? It is human nature, or so I thought. How else would you explain the usage? With the P51, Spit, 109, etc. you can point to a historical "reputation" that may attract people to fly it. With the La7 and Niki, I get the feeling people are saying "Hum.. whats the BEST plane in the arena that suits my "talent" as a fighter pilot". If the guy likes fast planes, he goes with an LA7, if he likes to turn more, he goes with a N1K2. I can only speak from personal experience here, but I had never HEARD of the LA7 OR the N1K2 before I started playing Aces High. I think it is fairly safe to assume that if it is not some personal "quirk" that attracts someone to a particular plane type, then it would be the planes performace- which in large part is "measured" by the ability to kill other planes. I believe that as 2 of the 3 most popular planes in the arena have a limited history available to the Western layman, people are attracted to those planes because they are EASY TO GET KILLS IN. And if the 109F4 was EASIER to get kills in than the N1K2 (which it isn't, in my opinion), then IT would be the most popular plane in the MA. Anyways, I'll apoligize in advance for the rather combative nature of the post. I would like to see your reply though, Fatty.
EDIT- One more question. As of when I checked the stats.. all of the planes that were easier to get kills in than the N1K2 actually had losing records to said plane. I suppose you can chalk it up to the fact that the only people that have caught on to the fact that those planes are so easy to get kills in are the incompetent pilots, huh?
[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
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As a newbie - I just wanted to add that I fly the Spit's for two reasons (I know this is about N1K's - but I think it's on the same wavelength):
One because I'm English and like a bit of nostalgia....
But mainly because it is nice to fly and means that I can actually get close up to the enemy, make a few turns, and maybe even fire a few shots off before getting shot down.
I'm sure it's different if you are very used to the game, and air combat tactics in general - but when you're new here you need any extra help you can get. I'm sure when I get a bit better at it I'll try other 'more challenging' planes - but to be honest I REALLY don't need any other challenges right now!
It seems unless there is one plane that is invincible when up against the rest - then it's really down to self control.
Do the scores here really mean that much to people? Isn't this just fun?
I think I'd be bored just shooting beginners out of the sky in a plane they can never beat(although some people seem to enjoy it).
If it was a 'first come first served' system up to a maximum number of planes - I'm sure the same people would still get the good planes, as it seems it is experienced flyers or people who play this game a lot - so they would be more likely to be online before me.
Then they'd have the good plane, and I'd get locked out of them and given a much 'harder' plane to fly - and probably give up all together.
Maybe there should be an 'inverse' perk system where the worse you are the better plane you are allowed - leaving the skilled pilot to fly a crate?
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Originally posted by SWulfe: I'm not sure what this thread is about. I'm sure I've read some... maybe most.. of it at some point in time.
I read the word "niki", and must comment. It's the N1K2 here. Best way to defeat them is to not play on their terms. Keep a good seperation between you and them, and make sure you manage yourself in the vertical. You will never defeat a N1K2 in a pure sustained turn fight. Unless you are in a Zero, SpitV/SeaFire or a SpitIX very low on gas.
Playing with the N1K2 in his territory (turning with him) or trying to continue your dive past him after you've already dove on him is two of the many foibles a neophyte virtual pilot makes against a N1K2.
They CAN dive. The can NOT roll very fast if they get a lot of speed. Nor can they turn very sharply right away. Your best bet is, if you dive on them to never dive past them but instead level out and fly AWAY from him and eventually work that into altitude again so you can dive on him again. When you are running away from a N1K2 and he is close behind you, roll a few times if he begins to fire a few rounds at you. Extend away and decide your next attack.
All true. This is what a skilled pilot with some hundred hours of flying (and TODs) and a good situational awareness thinks.
I for one never engaged with Nikis, no matter what situation I was in. Simply I was not able to judge his E state. I could do it well for Spitfires IX but not for Nikis.
Problem is that the average and below average AH pilot cannot do it as well. Moreover, the average AH situation is a "multibogey-mid/low alt-medium/low speed engagement": the best for the Niki (with his ammo load, cannons and E retention). And a Niki with 25% fuel ("gaming the game" with external tanks) can do almost everything in those situations.
I really hope that the next AH releases will fix some FM and above all have a balanced plane set. What do I mean? I mean that you have probably to leave out some planes, no matter how good is the FM or how interesting and good they were in RL.
I understand that many wont agree with me but I strongly believe that a complete and balanced plane set and more scenarios are the key factors. This what AH lacks now, almost the only things AH lacks. IMHO ;)
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Well we shall wait until niki will be fixed.
JIHAD ! Im glad that you noticed that Yaks engine is easy target... most time when i got hits from back to mail tail , mail Engine go to hell as in tiffie .... im a bit confused about it .
STATISTIC. could somebody make stat , whitch planes are most useing ? I dont know like you , but N1K is my most killed plane... They are always sooo high ... but it doesnt matter , they will die as well :)
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Urchin, you realize that Fatty plopped down his opinion in 10 seconds, and the 5 hours it took you to conjure all that stuff about the N1K2 is gone from the useful part of your life forever? :)
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Though I am curious, in your opinion what IS the easiest plane to get kills in?
F6F-5
AKDejaVu
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nope deja it's the dhog.. The niki killer.
la7's are by FAR a more dangerous plane.
urchin... there are about four planes in the arena that have a lot of superior attributes over all the others.. Of those 4, at least one is really hard to beat in whatever plane/planes we have chosen to fly... for us, that is the evil, mean spirited plane that needs to be "fixed" in some way so that our plane has a chance against it. you hate niks... I think they are harmless and I hate lag7's instead.
lazs
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Scores, scores. My scores in the 109s reflect base defense, and the fact I'm more comfortable with them in furballs than the niki. I assume at least some of the global rating is from that, the rest likely from augers. On the other hand, I did not mention the dora or the yak or the ki-61 or any of the perk planes either (which all have higher k/d's).
I've seen what you would think were decent pilots freeze up and freak out just because they saw N1K, but I have yet to see them do anything outside the physics bounding the rest of the planes here.
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And re: masses, yes, undiscovered. There is a mob mentality that believes the n1k2 is uber, that it can't beat the n1k2, and that if it flies it it can't lose. If more people complained about the dora's k/d, you'd see its numbers up there too.
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Originally posted by Fatty:
And re: masses, yes, undiscovered. There is a mob mentality that believes the n1k2 is uber, that it can't beat the n1k2, and that if it flies it it can't lose. If more people complained about the dora's k/d, you'd see its numbers up there too.
Fatty, I posted the above ways to engage N1K2s for that simple reason.
Understanding your plane better than your enemy understands his plane means you WILL win.
-SW
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hehe n1k is stupid, fake energy ufo plane..
take off pull into verticall at 150mph.. do full loop and gain so much energy momentum that you can automatically wind up doing a succession of loops continuously going higher and higher..
This is bs..
You can also do a break turn at around 350 mph.. about 7-8G's.. continuous hold.. (180 degree turn)... and continue on.. with same engergy amount as before you entered the turn... .. this is BS
n1k is so ultra simplistic to fly and fight in... it may as well be one of the most expensive perk planes..
it dives, zooms turns, has 4 cannon that "SEEM" to be more powerfull than ANYOTHER 20mm CANNONS" in the game.. and Has some sort of neglected physics engine applied to it.
hehe whatever.. Ill just keep killing them in a 190A8/A5 and actully earn the kill..
-out..
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>>Another thing I notice about the n1k is that IT takes a Massive amount of damage before it is taken down. WTF? I thought this thing was a modified zero with bigger
engine !? are'nt we talkin almost fabric here?<<
Deez:
The N1k1 was patterned after the P-47 which the Japanese had come up against and were losing planes to. It came at a time during WW2 when the Japanese, out of desperation were trying to match western technology in a/c design because the zero was being outmatched and outclassed by allied planes.
They copied the P-47 design and developed their own based on that...hence the Nik1/N1k2.
It was flawed but had potential to compete well with allied planes if it hadn't been developed sooner and if they had more reliable materials and parts.
It could climb like a scalded monkee but was less manueverable than the zeke due to it's weight and size. In AH it is way too manueverable to be historically accurate. It was modelled with 4 cannon, mostly because the Japanese wanted it to be able to take down allied bombers; trouble was, it didnt have the ceiling to overtake allied buffs. It was more of a homeland defense a/c than anything but, a few were used against allied a/c in island defense. One had supposedly shot down Pappy Boyington in 1943.
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>> my frustration comes from having to outclimb or outrun them knowing full well that a 109 isnt going to turn with them (well the 109f4 is better here but only for one turn or so). it is boring having to fight that way. the point is not everyone flies doggy turners so i have to think it is my problem for choosing the 109 and not the arenas.<<
Mrfish:
The N1K1 was not in reality, endowed with the ability to turn as well as it does in this sim; it was too big and heavy to do that. It was a concession the Japanese designers made to compete with allied a/c which WERE bigger, heavier and more powerful. It does have multi stage flaps which helps but, in order to use them you have to slow down; a slow Niki is a dead Niki. Frim what I have seen of it, the FM may be a wee bit porked.
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Thankyou deezcamp.
Its because of statements like this that N1K2's are easier to kill than they have ever been in the past.
I love it when a pilot dives in an N1K2 expecting to be able to pull an 8g turn at 350 and is trying to figure out what went wrong when my slightly slower F6F turns inside of him and tears his wings off. I also love it when an N1K2 thinks he can hang indefinately on his tail and catch that plane 800 yards above him... just before he slides backwards and gets torn apart. I love it when an N1K2 pilot thinks his cannons can reach as far as a set of .50's and starts spraying from 700 yards back.
There is nothing about the N1K2 that makes it invincible. Is it a good plane? Yep. Is it the first plane that everyone takes a pot shot at in a furball? Yep. Is it a plane that usually has 2 planes on it? Yep. Is it a plane that kills everything around it without discretion? Nope.
About the only remotely accurate argument in this whole thread is that there are alot of them in the arena right now. When I see threads that discuss the uber characteristics of the plane I definately see a "cause and effect" rule in action.
And Lazs... there is only one fighter (202 excluded) that the F6F-5 has a better than 1:1 k/d ratio against ;)
AKDejaVu
[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: AKDejaVu ]
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Wow...maybe SWulfe knows something :)
Just my 2 cents worth on Nik2, I believe Pyro said he was going to look into FM & fix if needed. If FM is porked, then I think it should be fixed (and this is coming from someone who flies Nik2). As far as the ammo loadout, if this is accurate then leave it alone. I think it is best to learn it's strengths & weakness, and fly accordingly.
It is kinda puzzling how I never really read much on boards about Nik2, prior to the Chog getting perked! What plane is next inline with the witch hunt??
BgMAW
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Originally posted by DeeZCamp:
hehe n1k is stupid, fake energy ufo plane..
take off pull into verticall at 150mph.. do full loop and gain so much energy momentum that you can automatically wind up doing a succession of loops continuously going higher and higher..
This is bs..
You can also do a break turn at around 350 mph.. about 7-8G's.. continuous hold.. (180 degree turn)... and continue on.. with same engergy amount as before you entered the turn... .. this is BS
n1k is so ultra simplistic to fly and fight in... it may as well be one of the most expensive perk planes..
it dives, zooms turns, has 4 cannon that "SEEM" to be more powerfull than ANYOTHER 20mm CANNONS" in the game.. and Has some sort of neglected physics engine applied to it.
hehe whatever.. Ill just keep killing them in a 190A8/A5 and actully earn the kill..
-out..
Talk about BS whine!!!!
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A late war Tempest does more incredible stuff than a late war N1K2, can we plaese let HTC address the George in 1.08, and have 150 threads and rants about the Tempest instead?
I have film. :)
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uhm.. hehe big gun.. I dont think you get it... :rolleyes: N1k are not a problem for me..
I kill them with FAR LESS manoverable aircraft, aircraft that are outclassed by others on almost all levels.
What I stated above is merely the BS ufo/energy crap that the "FLIGHT" model has determined to suite that aircraft.
I think you need to re-read the post..
"Comprehension is in need for that fella"
-out
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Geez....this is getting worse than the CHOG whining!! Havent flown much this tour because of having to move and still trying to get settled in and stuff, but I see I havent missed a damn thing....lots of the same old folks still whinin' about the same old things.
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Re-read and just think all of the statements you said about Nik2 are not true & exagerations, there by qualifying them as BS.
As for your superior flying skills, <S>
BgMAW (aka yomawMAW)
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DeeZee are you making this stuff up as you go along? If so, you might tone it down a bit so folks might actually believe some of it.
And yeah, boy that 190a5 is real tough to handle :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Don:
The N1k1 was patterned after the P-47 which the Japanese had come up against and were losing planes to. It came at a time during WW2 when the Japanese, out of desperation were trying to match western technology in a/c design because the zero was being outmatched and outclassed by allied planes.
They copied the P-47 design and developed their own based on that...hence the Nik1/N1k2.
It was flawed but had potential to compete well with allied planes if it hadn't been developed sooner and if they had more reliable materials and parts.
It could climb like a scalded monkee but was less manueverable than the zeke due to it's weight and size. In AH it is way too manueverable to be historically accurate. It was modelled with 4 cannon, mostly because the Japanese wanted it to be able to take down allied bombers; trouble was, it didnt have the ceiling to overtake allied buffs. It was more of a homeland defense a/c than anything but, a few were used against allied a/c in island defense. One had supposedly shot down Pappy Boyington in 1943.
Ummm, no. The N1K1 was a float-plane fighter designed in 1940. The first prototype flew in May of '42, but the counter-rotating props were dropped as being too complex. Armament was the same as the A6M2 Zero at the start. They gave it a single prop driven via an extention shaft before production started in July of 1943. By March of 44 only 83 had been built, and the program was dropped. In mid-December of 41 they decided to make a land-based fighter variant of the N1K1. Maiden flight was December 21st 1942. Armament was the same as the float-plane version at the start. It was re-designated the N1K1-J Shinden to reflect the changes.
The whole thing can be read here: http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/n1k.html (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/n1k.html)
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/delta6.jpg)
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MAking stuff up as I Go along? are you nutts? ? Ive done it.. :D I have flown the n1k.. and its really easy to do anything in that plane. The fight can almost always be on your terms.
THE loop example is not exagerated.. IT can be done..
Try a Double I-man... and then even stretch it to go as far as to continue a shallow climb at the top of the second one...
The n1k must have a Pratt&whittney F-100 afterburning engine..
as for the mark about not being able to fly a 190A5 fatty I suggest you look at which aircraft is easier to fly.. the N1k or a Fockewulf....
I think most will agree that the n1k is by far the easier plane to fly and turn the tables on someone. Also I listed A8, not just a5.. so uhmm. yeah
The n1k is getting fixed.. or at least it has been said by HTC THEMSLEVES... so what is the argument??
they have said that it is JACKED up.. (in not so direct terms)
its "Uber" and that is why it is gett fixed....
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? Ive done it.. I have flown the n1k.. and its really easy to do anything in that plane.
Then there should be no problem presenting video showing the plane pulling 7-8 g's at 350 knots continuously without bleeding e. Nor would it be any problem providing video of the damage inflicted with the uber cannons. Come one deez... put up or shut up.
The fight can almost always be on your terms.
That applies to the pilot and not the plane. The difference between a good pilot and a bad pilot is the individual's ability to control the terms of the fight. The aircraft takes a back seat in that scenario.
THE loop example is not exagerated.. IT can be done..
Explain why it shouldn't be possible. The N1K2 is not the only plane that can do this. So far, nobody has been able to explain why it shouldn't be possible.
And.. by citing the one thing that was not exagerated, you have lent great credence to the fact that the rest of it was.
as for the mark about not being able to fly a 190A5 fatty I suggest you look at which aircraft is easier to fly.. the N1k or a Fockewulf....
I know which one is easier to hit... the N1K2. Where the N1K can beat the 190 in turning, the 190 kills it in flopping around the sky. I know I'd rather see someone trying to outmaneuver me flying an N1K2 than see someone simply stir the stick all over the place flying a 190A-5.
AKDejaVu
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The argument is that it doesn't do what's claimed. I don't have any problem with them looking at and changing the flight model, I have a problem with claims like
You can also do a break turn at around 350 mph.. about 7-8G's.. continuous hold.. (180 degree turn)... and continue on.. with same engergy amount as before you entered the turn.
The reason I point out the 190a5 is because I also get tired of people that fly the n1k getting accused of flying an "easymode" plane. The 190a5 is undisputably a 190a8 in easymode.
Any plane that has positve level acceleration if capable of climbing into the loop will end with more energy than it started, by the way. I would be much more concerned if when you got back where you started you had somehow run out of energy.
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"Digression aside- there are some issues with N1K2 flight modeling that require some further work and changes."
-Pyro
It's unknown what the issues are or what the work and changes will be.
-SW
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The reason I point out the 190a5 is because I also get tired of people that fly the n1k getting accused of flying an "easymode" plane. The 190a5 is undisputably a 190a8 in easymode.
While I quail at disagreeing with such an eminent pilot such as yourself, I must disagree. The 190A5 is more manueverable, yes- but you sacrifice the two MGs, as well as 160 rounds of 20mm ammo, making the outboard pair of 20mm cannons basically dead weight if you take them. The 190A5 doesn't even have the option of twin 30mm cannons like the 190A8 does (which in my opinion is the only gun option to take- you won't get many hits in the 190a8 so they have to count). The 190A5 is more like an air superiority fighter, the A8 is an interceptor.
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I know which one is easier to hit... the N1K2. Where the N1K can beat the 190 in turning, the 190 kills it in flopping around the sky. I know I'd rather see someone trying to outmaneuver me flying an N1K2 than see someone simply stir the stick all over the place flying a 190A-5.
AKDejaVu
Deja, I respect you as a person and as a pilot... but I have to ask this. What exactly IS this "stick-stirring" you speak of? That is just about the only thing I EVER hear people talk about when they are talking about fighting a 190.
Are you referring to jinking? By which I mean small random course changes, performed in order to throw an opponents aim off. Are you referring to something else?
Because if you are referring to jinking, it ought to be fairly obvious why the 190 pilots do it- their planes can't outturn 90% of the other planes.
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It's taking the joystick and yanking it back and forth to produce warps on the other guy's front end (software). The 190 isn't the only plane that does it, but it's the most prominent and proficient at it.
-SW
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The A5 outruns many planes in the arena and any plane that I fly. A typical engagement:
A5 comes in with alt advantage. I turn to engage. A5 goes for HO shot and might turn to continue engagement. If I get behind it.. it starts flopping all over (er.. "jinking") as it continues to accelerate away.
The N1Ks stay and fight.. or at least behave in a somewhat fluid manner. The average A5 pilot seems to play the game more than fly the plane. Take that for what its worth.
I've been on your 6 before urchin.. stayed there too. The "jinking" your plane was doing is not really anything I've seen in gun-cam footage. I really don't think you understand that until you continually see it happen.
AKDejaVu
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hehe this is funny.. how could you even remotly think that the A5/A8 are some Warp inducing device? lol I guess if you equate the roll rate of the 190 to the massive Flat turn ability, then you could have both the same visual latency problems..
or perhaps your just on a bad connection.
The funny part of the whole discussion is how you keep refering to how when ON THE 190's 6'oclock... well Right there it shows that ... gee hehe Most people wind up there in that position because of the POOR energy retention of a 190A5/8 the Poor speed in level flight.. and the Extreamly poor sustained turn rate.
All of this makes for a VASTLY UN-superior plane in contrast to the Mystical majic Energy less N1k wonder that it is.
Yes Hitech is checking into the N1k "it has issues" lol.. yeah OF course that is what they are going to say... You think that they are going to outright come and say.. "you know...guys... The n1k SUCKS.. the flight model is completey fake, and it doesnt react to the laws of physics like most of the planes do were gonna correct that issue"
Gee ... No duh? Sounds like typical politics to me.
The best n1k pilot vs the best 190A8/5 pilot is going to show that the 190 pilot will have to work harder to earn the kill,... that is all i was saying about the FW vs n1k in a skillset scenerio.
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Originally posted by DeeZCamp:
hehe this is funny.. how could you even remotly think that the A5/A8 are some Warp inducing device? lol I guess if you equate the roll rate of the 190 to the massive Flat turn ability, then you could have both the same visual latency problems..
You answered your own sarcastic remark right there.
The 190 has the fastest roll rate in the game. Data rate and net code can not keep up with it's roll rate. Thus it's rolling position isn't updated fast enough and makes it appear to be warping.
-SW
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no.. the funny thing is that.. Because of this you think it is advantageous lol
I would understand if the plane Zoomed out of view and aroudn to your 6 because of packet loss, etc... but becasue the planes movement on (your FE) would cause you to think that it has an advantage is just funny. :D
I mean.. IS that really a problem to you?.. does it lose you or others so bad?
It doesnt affect me..
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Also to reiterate flight modeling lol.. then What you are saying is that HTC is messing with the "FLIGHT MODEL" in order to complement internet lag?... wow.. that would be pretty crazy.. I guess its starting to sound like most of the planes are not actually to spec.. but rather.. to appease the net... Hmmmm? ;)
that other sim sounds like it may have more realistic flight more and more.. lol
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I've been on your 6 before urchin.. stayed there too. The "jinking" your plane was doing is not really anything I've seen in gun-cam footage. I really don't think you understand that until you continually see it happen.
If you have film of me doing this "stick stirring", please send it to me- so I can maybe see what my actions look like from another point of view. If you don't have any of me, just send me a few so I can know exactly what it is you are referring to- I think you are right when you say I won't know what it is until I see it a lot.
When I fly the 190 and a "turny" plane gets on my 6- yes, I accelerate away. To prevent them from getting a shot I normally make little turns (like itty bitty one person scissors) and a lot of small barrell roles. If I have the altitude for it, I dispsense with the crap and just head for the deck. If I get bounce by a plane I think I can knife-fight with on even terms, I generally attempt to make a large "rolling reversal", or start a flat break in one direction and reverse it- either initiating scissors or getting on the bandits tail.
I will admit that it seems puzzling to me that if you utilize your planes strengths by diving away from a plane that is more agile but slower than you, you are looked down on? I will admit I look down on La7s that run from me 1v1, but then again they are more manueverable AND faster than the planes that I fly.
Another interesting comment Deja -
The N1Ks stay and fight.. or at least behave in a somewhat fluid manner. The average A5 pilot seems to play the game more than fly the plane. Take that for what its worth.
Of course the Niks stay and fight- their strength is in a turnfight. The sentence "The Average A5 pilot seems to play the game more than fly the plane" rather confuses me to be honest. What do you mean here?
Also, I've FLOWN an A8 against an F6F- it is not an easy fight. We basically did every type of scissors I've ever heard of, and then some. He did eventually get on my tail and shoot me down- then he bounced me a couple times later (the first fight was more coE, both of us attacking) and shot me down quite easily.
And lastly, DeeZ- you aren't helping. I know this sounds "ingrateful" since you are ostenibly on my side, but out and out exagerations of the planes abilities are going to make people more hostile to the idea of well... I hate it ;) I hate SEEING it all the time, I hate FIGHTING them, I and really don't even like RUNNING from them, even though I know it is the best thing to do. That is really all the thread is about. It isn't about whether or not the plane can loop from here to Jupiter.
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And lastly- I don't even really think the plane is "overmodelled". Everything I've read about it (which isn't much, granted), speaks of the plane as an extremely formidable opponent, and one that was the equal or better of every plane the U.S. had in the Pacific Theatre. I want it perked BECAUSE it is such a formidable ride, and it is far and away the most common ride in the MA, to the point of nausea in my case.
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DeeZCamp,
All aircraft in AH have engines, therefor all aircraft in AH gain energy as they climb. The N1K2-J is not unique in that feature, if it were, no other aircraft in AH could get off the ground.
Most of the fighters (maybe all, I haven't tried them all) in AH can do the "endless loops while gaining altitude" trick. These are relatively light aircraft with powerful engines. Once again the N1K2-J is not unique.
The A6M5b and all Spitfires in AH out turn the N1K2-J, and the Spitfire MkIX out runs it at higher altitudes. The N1K2-J is not the best turning aircraft in AH.
No matter how many times I've tried, I've never been able to do a 180 degree break turn in the N1K2-J without losing energy. Could you please tell me how to do it? Maybe the N1K2-J doesn't bleed enough energy, that is what I am guessing anyways, but it certainly bleeds energy.
I have never accelerated in a steep climb in the N1K2-J, nor have I been able to hang on its prop as if it were a helicopter. Could you please tell me how to do this?
The N1K2-J's flight model will be revised in 1.08 it seems. Maybe it'll suck afterwards, like all Japanese aircraft apparently should, but I doubt it. I bet the changes will be reasonably subtle and many of the tactics that the N1K2-J uses now, will continue to be used after 1.08 is released.
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Urchin,
I'm sorry, but when you say the things about a plane that you said in your initial post, you are being quite insulting... even if that wasn't your intention. Now, maybe you see just how insulting it can be when anyone says anything about the plane you like to fly.
AKDejaVu
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DeeZ, show me one place where I said it was advantegous to them or anything along those lines.
I was describing what stick stirring is.
Maybe you should pay attention. And no, that other game doesn't sound any better.. I'm sure there are a LOT of holes in it's flight model.
-SW
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Flakbait:
Thanks for the link. Interesting too, I read a book a month ago about the designer of the zero which, went into the competition for gvpt contracts in anticipation of the coming war. The book made no mention of the N1k1 or 2 even being in the competition. I have read quite a bit about ww2 a/c and recall the info about the george or shiden being contrary to what the article you recommended described.
Hehe, ya can't trust what you read. What I did find fascinating and believable though is the fact that, the western powers had underestimated the technical capabilities of the Japanese, and were taken completely by surprise at the quality of Japanese a/c. What I read may have been tainted by this Hubris. It is true that America knew virtually little about the Japanese culture or technical capabilities.
Thanks for the information.
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As usual, you are correct, Deja. I did not think to see it that way. <S>.
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hehe wulf.. let me guess you havent even compared the too yet by trying it have you? :D
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Originally posted by DeeZCamp:
hehe wulf.. let me guess you havent even compared the too yet by trying it have you? :D
What the hell are you talking about?
-SW
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what am i talking about?
THE other SIM duh.... :eek:
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No, I have not tried it. Civil aviation doesn't float my boat, I'd use that 50$ to buy the game and rent myself a ride on a flight for a couple weekends.
Fact is: You can never get a 100% perfect flight model on a home PC. They simply do not have enough computing power to do the calculations required to get a perfect or near perfect flight model.
Boeing's full motion simulators have in excess of 20 600Mhz processors to calculate the flight model for each simulator. (that's per simulator)
-SW
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uhm.. hehe yeah.. well I guess if your not even going to try it.. then.. anything you say.. is pure opinion and .. completey ignorant. :rolleyes:
Give me a freaking break... ALL this time.. and you havnt even downloaded the free demo and tried it.
Wait let me say that again.. so you understand that no money is involved..
IT IS FREE... IT IS A FREE DOWNLOAD... YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PAY ANYTHING.... UNDERSTAND???
I only wonder how Boring your life could be man.... I mean ITS LIKE,.. ARE YOU NOT WILLING TO DO ANYTHING!?
Heres a dumb, but seemingly accurate depiction, analogy of your thought process.
Say you go to a fast food place, and you always eat a cheese burger.... never even THINKING of trying that new advertised CHICKEN sandwich...
You think to yourself I hear all about this stupid chicken sandwich and how good it is... Hmmmm should I try it?.. naw.. Ill just stick to THE SAME burger that I have been eating...Change isnt good, And I KNOW that The CHicken sandwich will never be as good or better to WHAT I am used to.
This is actually pretty funny... All your ranting about Code... and Numbers... and you havent even looked into that old topic first hand to try and prove something.. LOL
I know that if someone said ... HEY try this ONE thing... iTS BETTER THAN "----" I would at least have enuff sense to TRY AND LOOK for my self and THEN... MAKE an intelligent decision... WOW :eek: :eek:
WoW... I thought that you had an open mind, through other postings.. but wow I cant even come close to thinking that anymore, you just proved that from all this time you are only looking at things from your single focused view.
Sad....
"Civil aviation doesn't float my boat,"
This is really funny... I think, infact i know for a FACT that I have made it EXTREMLY clear that you can fly the aircraft that are here, over there... LOL
wow..
:eek: :eek: :rolleyes: :eek:
-Ouuuuuuutttttrrrrrzzzzzzzzz
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ya know i read bout the first 20 posts then got bored. Fly the 202 man, everyone knows its the suckiest plane in the game, ie the easiest to kill. This sets up the perfect situation where people flock to kill you. Then, if you take your time you end up with the kills, just be prepared for lots and lots of sists if yer buds in their UBERIRON are around. :D
Take the challenge
Fila
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I fly the F6F-5 Hellcat
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56K modem, I'm not going to download it.
Point #2: I don't give a toejam to be perfectly honest. It IS civil aviation, there are no weapons, there is no one to dogfight.. What am I going to do, fly around an airport? Whooptiefreakingdoo.
Here's my viewpoint on life: If it isn't worth my time, it isn't worth my time. The only thing you have said that is better about X-Plane is it feels good and that silly jargon you are throwing around that doesn't matter one bit because you still can't explain how AH models flight versus how X-Plane does it nor can you give any proof in raw data form that X-Plane does anything better.
It's worthless to me, therefore not worth my time to try it out. I have a real life, and things I do in real life negate trying out silly computer software that I do not want to nor need to try out.
-SW
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yep... give us an "alied vs axis" arena so that we can watch the same ol one or two moves by the same ol one or two LW opponents over and over and over and over till we scream.... rather have niks for the reasons deja stated.
lazs
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As with Fester's thread, I haven't read any of the posts here, I just wanted to add that I like donuts!
Cobra