Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Lusche on November 22, 2010, 08:29:04 PM
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In case someone is interested:
Two mondays with almost exact the same total population. One under the old caps system, the other is showing todays numbers.
(http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/4075/newcomparison.jpg)
Time given is my local time (CET). The main difference is the time LWO needs to recover and get growing again past the 100 player limit.
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I still wonder why orange seems to be preferred.
also, it almost looks like the Off hours should go another hour or so. ??
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I still wonder why orange seems to be preferred.
First arena on the list :)
also, it almost looks like the Off hours should go another hour or so. ??
I don't see any improvement by that. The boot would just affect more people, but it would still look the same.
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Interesting chart, I do feel a tweak coming to the balancing code. Right now it appears soon as blue hits its 70% it is sorta a 1 - one swap one person comes in blue then 1 goes in orange and another until 1 leaves from blue.
The strange thing is other then the order there is absolutely zero difference between the arenas.
HiTech
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The strange thing is other then the order there is absolutely zero difference between the arenas.
Different maps... from what I've noticed, more people tend to prefer larger arenas. Orange has had a large map in it since last week.
I like the small ones myself, more apt to find fights.
edit: spelling errors, they must be contagious.
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In my opinion, there are several factors, in descending order:
- Numbers. The most important factor. Numbers breed numbers, players go were players are. (See also "I would go EW/MW,AVA if it had only more players")
- Placement on list. Everything else being equal, players join the first arena on the list.
- Map size. Many players seem to prefer larger maps
- Actual map. Usually not that important, but there is one particular map that will make players flee LWO and join LWB every time it's up.
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Interesting chart, I do feel a tweak coming to the balancing code. Right now it appears soon as blue hits its 70% it is sorta a 1 - one swap one person comes in blue then 1 goes in orange and another until 1 leaves from blue.
The strange thing is other then the order there is absolutely zero difference between the arenas.
HiTech
Hi HT,
If I just may say one thing...and I have no data to back it up....but...if Orange seems to be where folks gravitate..and then swap around...could it be that alot of squads start in orange and those in those squads try to get there?
The squad I'm in mainly fly in orange a we have such a time differintial. Squaddies from everywhere. So if the squad is in orange...thats where most tend to go.
Just an observation. Like I said no data to back it up. And , I may not have explained it just right but I'm sure you all know what I mean.
On a side note....I'm sure most appreciate the effort.
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So put Blue on top and see if the numbers change from arena to arena :)
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Speaking only for myself, the map currently being used in Orange is one of the few maps I enjoy.
In particular, the center island is one of the few places where you can operate GVs without the GV game being constantly ruined by AC. Not sure why this is, but it definately is. Also, I rarely see hordes there. Again, I don't know why not.
Further, I have generally found that if I want to take up a fighter on the center island, it seems to be relatively easy to find a fight against 1 or 2 opponents, and this occurs quickly and reliably. On other maps I spend most of my time trying to find such fights, and instead find a gross imbalance of numbers either for or against. Don't know why.
Conclusion is that I appreciate having this map available, and wish it was permanent.
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Orange is where the 20th is positioned because the squads we operate with usually go into Orange also.
Try this HT (switch orange and blues names in the list without switching the maps) :aok what is LWBlue was LWOrange and vice versa only in name? :lol maybe most will go to the second arena in the listing over the first?
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well one thing i know is that i got booted from the DA with no warning and so did everyone else, what was going on then, id like to know, because i was on short final with some kills, which dont matter to me its the DA. But no warning or anything and BOOM!!! DA was closed
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I'd also be curious to see some input from some of the more "win the war" type players. I would imagine if they're trying to reset a map they would tend to stick to one arena as long as that map is up. Can't say for myself because I don't really pay attention to these things but I would think if I put in several hours on a map trying to capture real estate on Monday night and the map hadn't been reset yet I would be inclined to log back into the same arena on Tuesday to try and continue the effort.
Just a guess though.
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I'd also be curious to see some input from some of the more "win the war" type players. I would imagine if they're trying to reset a map they would tend to stick to one arena as long as that map is up. Can't say for myself because I don't really pay attention to these things but I would think if I put in several hours on a map trying to capture real estate on Monday night and the map hadn't been reset yet I would be inclined to log back into the same arena on Tuesday to try and continue the effort.
Just a guess though.
that and TT seems to now be out of the sequence of maps for a regular day? or am i wrong? In the message it said TT will save the map for the next week (while orange and blue will reload for wednesday from monday i assume?)
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I don't see any improvement by that. The boot would just affect more people, but it would still look the same.
seems to me the 2 arenas would balance out even quicker though, no? with more people?
whatever the case, the new system definitely works better than the old. the dip in the totals for the hour after the switch looks a bit strange, but I figure it's people who DID NOT READ THE ARENA MESSAGE and end up going to midwar or ww1 or something when they see "arena will close in 5 minutes"
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The numbers look pretty good. Euro guys get a good population and when the split starts it recovers pretty quick.
As for the Win the Wars types I think they may need a couple weeks to get use to the maps being saved and seeing that when they come in the next day. Once it starts to click with them you might see a better return from them.
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seems to me the 2 arenas would balance out even quicker though, no? with more people?
No, I mean more people would get annoyed by getting booted ;)
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Orange is where the 20th is positioned because the squads we operate with usually go into Orange also.
Try this HT (switch orange and blues names in the list without switching the maps) :aok what is LWBlue was LWOrange and vice versa only in name? :lol maybe most will go to the second arena in the listing over the first?
Switched orange to pink a while back. Result one on top gets the most.
Swaped the arenas with out name change I.E. blue on top , result more in top arena.
Swaped arenas but kept the orange name on top. Result more people in the top arena.
HiTech
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so then put orange on the bottom of the list and give them all new names like red or white
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No, I mean more people would get annoyed by getting booted ;)
ahh yes.
that and TT seems to now be out of the sequence of maps for a regular day? or am i wrong? In the message it said TT will save the map for the next week (while orange and blue will reload for wednesday from monday i assume?)
yea, so now instead of only a week to reset a map, each arena will have unlmited time. (just one day at a time tho)
I can't see how war winners could be against this.. they might actually make progress on large maps now, pushing way far back, opening up weird fights, etc. etc.
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It's Pych 401 Lab 6.
Monkeys and Humans always pick the first "thingy" available in the offering tray unless influenced otherwise. Humans being a bit smarter, if not given any preconditions before the presentation of the "thingy" will by a majority pick the first "thingy" offered. Curiosity is only a factor in a small number of the participants.
If the human participants are told: All "thingys" being equal pick any "thingy" presented. They pick the first one by a majority.
In Aces High the pavlov effect is in mode for picking LW Orange or the Top nested LW arena at this late date. We have taught ourselves that the largest number of players will populate orange. More of us want to play with large numbers because numbers increase the possibilites of bang for buck. In this game group participation is a bang for buck multiplyer(Squad).
In the past when the game's population was small yes, excellent fights and activities were the norm. At that stage only the genera officiondo was willing to pay the fee. Thus the population had a homogenius mind set, got along famously and had fun because everyone had fun the same way and got their fix the same exact way. A Homogenious Community. A village.
Now the game is multigenious. Everyone is no longer getting their fix from the kinds of activities. At least the majority of you agree by your arena first choice numbers are more fun.
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I can't see how war winners could be against this.. they might actually make progress on large maps now, pushing way far back, opening up weird fights, etc. etc.
Many players (warwinners or not) grow weary of a map after some time... particularly if the map is (either by design or by current standing of the war) limiting the playing options.
With the current setup, it's not unlikely that maps will stay up for many weeks, if not more.
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so then put orange on the bottom of the list and give them all new names like red or white
?? Derk, I'm not sure I get your logic. During the era of the Pink Arena Hitech established pretty conclusively that it didn't matter what the map was or what it was named - folks tend to click on the first one listed if both have equal numbers, and as soon as it has a few more players, both because it's first and because it has higher numbers already.
I wonder what would happen if there was another button - one that said "collect 5 free perk points" but placed you in the least populated arena on the least populated side for 10 minutes. It'd have to be the AH version of the Webkinz Wishing Well though, and only let you use it once per day.
<S>
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Many players (warwinners or not) grow weary of a map after some time... particularly if the map is (either by design or by current standing of the war) limiting the playing options.
With the current setup, it's not unlikely that maps will stay up for many weeks, if not more.
perhaps, but they wont go "screw it, map is gone tomorrow anyway" on monday night.
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It's Pych 401 Lab 6.
Monkeys and Humans always pick the first "thingy" available in the offering tray unless influenced otherwise. Humans being a bit smarter, if not given any preconditions before the presentation of the "thingy" will by a majority pick the first "thingy" offered. Curiosity is only a factor in a small number of the participants.
Monkeys (well the DRUNKEN type) prefer blue witch is the 2nd "thingy"
Blue is better smaller maps, seems more fights and less mob mentality then Orange
<3 DMGOD
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also one more thing that i might add during this arena cap is that the host will disconnect you from the AH server. usually and very often, the people flying AH in Australia will DEFINITELY get disconnected! i wonder why?? could it be the australian network? well one thing is for sure, its is really ANNOYING to get disconnected during and usually while in a chase or when about to drop bombs. and when i want to get back in, the arena is capped to 200, then 100..hitech C sure has a way to make its PAYING customers go through such agony in gameplay. I am ok with the arena change, but man... capping the players is just stupid...i wonder if microsoft put a cap on the no. of players in any xbox live arena... :headscratch: to me this seems to be very amaturish on hitech's part. i wonder if anyone in hitech actually puts in the number of hours we do playing AH...it would prob be diff if they did i reckon..getting sick of the cap...sure feels like i want to.... :bolt:
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Switched orange to pink a while back. Result one on top gets the most.
Swaped the arenas with out name change I.E. blue on top , result more in top arena.
Swaped arenas but kept the orange name on top. Result more people in the top arena.
HiTech
Put the TA on top.
Seems logical.
Rename the two Late War Arenas LW 1 and LW A.
wrongway
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How's this for stats:
I flew the Off Peak arena until it closed. Then when the LWO and LWB opens I cannot join my squad in the LWO. I am segregated and relegated to wait it out until the cap comes up.
Numbers won't show true 'satisfaction' and the initial 100 player cap wont be productive, it generates much slower growth of play. Especially punishing the ones who transition from one map to the next. Will be logging off entirely if cannot get into LWO, or just 'hang around' which certainly is much worse and does not reflect your stats of pilots flying productively or satisfied.
As for the 'peak hours', many times me and other LCA squad members cannot make it online for squad night due to the low caps of 200 when I see that 240 players are in there. Peak hours don't account for squads. Peak hours should support the true PEAK, the ones that fly in squads that need to get in. Just open it up to 200 after arena opening, then transition to 300 on both LBO and LWO and the arenas should grow much faster this way.
Certainly alleviates the frustration of making it on-time for squad night 8pm EST.
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As for the 'peak hours', many times me and other LCA squad members cannot make it online for squad night due to the low caps of 200 when I see that 240 players are in there. Peak hours don't account for squads. Peak hours should support the true PEAK, the ones that fly in squads that need to get in. Just open it up to 200 after arena opening, then transition to 300 on both LBO and LWO and the arenas should grow much faster this way.
I feel your pain, but your assumption is wrong. The higher you set the initial cap limit, the slower the growth will be, the longer it will take to get both arenas to a similar level.
If you set LWO initial level to 200, and there are 220 players online - where do you end up? Right, 200 / 20. Those 20 still can't get into LWO, and even worse, their arena has horrific numbers.
You can even take the numbers from my graph above and do a simulation yourself.
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Put the TA on top.
Seems logical.
great idea :aok
LWO popularity is no mystery really. most players want to play in the arena with most players - AH is an MMOG after all. so whichever arena has most players will fill up quickest, usually LWO because its top of the list.
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also one more thing that i might add during this arena cap is that the host will disconnect you from the AH server. usually and very often, the people flying AH in Australia will DEFINITELY get disconnected! i wonder why?? could it be the australian network? well one thing is for sure, its is really ANNOYING to get disconnected during and usually while in a chase or when about to drop bombs. and when i want to get back in, the arena is capped to 200, then 100..hitech C sure has a way to make its PAYING customers go through such agony in gameplay. I am ok with the arena change, but man... capping the players is just stupid...i wonder if microsoft put a cap on the no. of players in any xbox live arena... :headscratch: to me this seems to be very amaturish on hitech's part. i wonder if anyone in hitech actually puts in the number of hours we do playing AH...it would prob be diff if they did i reckon..getting sick of the cap...sure feels like i want to.... :bolt:
HTC has no responsibility for your internet connection from Australia to Texas. If you're having troubles staying connected, run a ping plot to the LW server and see where the problem is and contact your ISP about it.
As for the arena cap, you are free to go to the other arena anytime. Nothing is stopping you from experiencing the same air combat gameplay except your own prejudice. Yes, the map may be different, the names are different but the sim is the same. Your "buddies" can get along without you for awhile until you can rejoin them or you can inform them you can't get into their arena and if they really are "buddies" they'll join you in the arena you're in. Either way, the game is the same. Get over it. You'll live.
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I wonder what would happen if there was another button - one that said "collect 5 free perk points" but placed you in the least populated arena on the least populated side for 10 minutes. It'd have to be the AH version of the Webkinz Wishing Well though, and only let you use it once per day.
<S>
NICE +1 That would work!
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Switched orange to pink a while back. Result one on top gets the most.
Swaped the arenas with out name change I.E. blue on top , result more in top arena.
Swaped arenas but kept the orange name on top. Result more people in the top arena.
HiTech
Dynamically order the late war arena list by current # of players - the one with least players always on top
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Hey HTC, what do you think about the concept of removing the player #s entirely?
If we have caps that are dynamic, the caps work on both arenas equally, and the only two factors that typically change where people join are the order in the list, or the number next to the arena... remove the number, and set each arena to one of three status "Closed", "Full", "Open", and perhaps people will start caring less that they can't fly with the arena with 50 more?
Other suggestion? Have the client software flip which arena is is the top one. I.e. for one login blue is on top, next login, orange is on top.
I think by doing both, both arenas would grow together more smoothly (hopefullly), as opposed to 1 grow, 2nd then grows long enough for the first one to get more in again, and repeat ad-nauseum.
I think it might not be a bad idea for other arenas either, as I suspect some people avoid other arenas strictly because of the numbers.
(except give Lusche the ability to see numbers, because his charts are dreamy ;-) )
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changing the names, dynamically ordering the list or flipping the list wont make any difference because most players want to play in the arena with most players. so whichever arena has most players will fill up quickest.
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changing the names, dynamically ordering the list or flipping the list wont make any difference because most players want to play in the arena with most players. so whichever arena has most players will fill up quickest.
yep, thats the theory - and its probably right - but until now, experiments has only shown that people chooses the upper - and hence most populated - arena. By reversing, one factor is removed, and we then know for sure.
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I'm never against an experiment. But not being completely clueless, I will look at the new "arranged" arena numbers and where ever the numbers are ... guess where I'm going. ;)
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As large map preference was mentioned, I tend to gravitate toward them as well. More airspace to eat up on climbout in bombers. Just a personal preference, nothing more.
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Hey HTC, what do you think about the concept of removing the player #s entirely?
I've mentioned this on numerous occasions.
At the very least it would stop the "arena X is dead" comments.
Are the numbers there as an advertising type gimmick? "Look at how many play" thing?
I used to play a MMORG that actually started hiding its numbers to keep its business ups and downs away from its competitors.
wrongway
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At the very least it would stop the "arena X is dead" comments.
You mean nobody would notice there ain't nobody in EW playing anymore just because the number at the door is missing? ;)
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Due to the popularity and cap limits of Orange, our squad flies Blue. Otherwise, squad members are isolated from their squad due to limits.
Unless I am reading it wrong, the chart does not show a 24 hr sample. Perhaps, the bottom line for HTC would be the total number of players collectively.
I can only speak for myself, playing "off hours" with slightly higher LW player base is more attractive. The transition period between booted players is reasonably a drop in numbers, but questionably are all of those booted re entering the LW arenas or logging off entirely. It looks pretty consistent between the two graphs with the new system showing slightly higher numbers overall.
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I'd also be curious to see some input from some of the more "win the war" type players. I would imagine if they're trying to reset a map they would tend to stick to one arena as long as that map is up. Can't say for myself because I don't really pay attention to these things but I would think if I put in several hours on a map trying to capture real estate on Monday night and the map hadn't been reset yet I would be inclined to log back into the same arena on Tuesday to try and continue the effort.
Just a guess though.
Hi Soulyss,
I guess if I have to characterize myself, I'd say I'm a "win the war" type of guy, but I'm not a fanatic. ie: whenever a Rook mission gets posted, first thing I ask on country channel is "Is it an NOE?". If it is, I opt out, and say so on country channel..usually with a comment like: "It's for people afraid to fight the enemy.", etc...
Anyway, the level of commitment/enthusiasm by "win the war" guys is to me personally, and from what I can see of the Rooks in general these days
dependent upon the map in use at the time. I can tell you that the general consensus unless one is a dedicated "GV guy" is that the 250 field
maps are a unwanted and unliked. I'll leave it at that as this is not a "what kinda map do I want?" thread.
What I will say is that if major decisions are being made, or in the process of being made with regards to gameplay, CAP numbers, that those making those
decisions should know that player methodology/interest is directly tied in to the current map(s) in use.
Be wary of listening to a select few who utilize this BBS.
And, in the interest of "disclosure", I'll say here and now that I am a "Arena CAPs killed the squadron mentality" kind of guy, with the exception of fighter ops only squads.
Regards, Oddball
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OK lushce,I realize you are trying to get a job with HTC HR.. :lol
But I must know how you come to the numbers on your chart..Statistics can be very maleable depending on how one looks at them,and I am curious to know.. :)
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But I must know how you come to the numbers on your chart..
Login screen :)
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I realize log in screen,but did you just sit and hit refresh for hours or what?? :salute
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In case someone is interested:
Two mondays with almost exact the same total population. One under the old caps system, the other is showing todays numbers.
(http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/4075/newcomparison.jpg)
Time given is my local time (CET). The main difference is the time LWO needs to recover and get growing again past the 100 player limit.
Lusche always has interesting graphs.
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I realize log in screen,but did you just sit and hit refresh for hours or what?? :salute
basically yes :uhoh
To clarify: I was not sitting in front of my screen clicking refresh for hours. I was doing other stuff and coming back to check the numbers in (more or less) regular intervals.
And no, I'm not doing that all the time :lol
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Have each client randomly decide the order in which to display the LW arenas.
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Why not just assign a Arena to each subscriber. End of problem.
Why let the customer decide which arena to play in?
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Switched orange to pink a while back. Result one on top gets the most.
Swaped the arenas with out name change I.E. blue on top , result more in top arena.
Swaped arenas but kept the orange name on top. Result more people in the top arena.
HiTech
Code to randomize the order in which they appear in the list on each FE?
Not sure how much of an effect that would have or how hard it would be to implement.
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Too much work for no gain. After some initial confusion, players would still mostly go where the majority is. Shuffling arena position or names or hiding numbers on login screen won't change that.
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Too much work for no gain. After some initial confusion, players would still mostly go where the majority is. Shuffling arena position or names or hiding numbers on login screen won't change that.
If you hide the numbers, and shuffle the arena names, how would many players know which arena has more people in it? Sure, the ones with squads would know, but it wouldn't matter because the squad would either A) already have an established arena, or B) join on to wherever the first couple of squaddies wind up.
As of right now, those without squads and those in squads which don't have anyone on would likely grab the highest number. Without the number shown, it'd be pretty common to choose first on the list, which, would change every login.
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That would tick me off as a customer if I didn't get to see how many people were in the arena I was joining.
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I feel your pain, but your assumption is wrong. The higher you set the initial cap limit, the slower the growth will be, the longer it will take to get both arenas to a similar level.
If you set LWO initial level to 200, and there are 220 players online - where do you end up? Right, 200 / 20. Those 20 still can't get into LWO, and even worse, their arena has horrific numbers.
You can even take the numbers from my graph above and do a simulation yourself.
I understand that you're trying to balance the arenas, and pack both of them in, but so tightly it is at the expense of squad camraderie / their time to fly together. You're giving us less of a choice, more frequently annoying the player base. For eastern zime zone prime time night flying, our 'peak' can't get into the 'peak arena' for our 'peak' performance. In balancing 2 arenas tightly as you are, you are seperating / segregating the squad. Those that fly blue can continue to fly blue, let them go there, but give the squads a fighting chance to be together by:
1) Give us true options to fly where we want. The old cap system was 'doable' it gave us a fighting chance to be together.
2) Or just give us 1 arena. The off peak arena hours 850cap, Ironically lets squads work together on the weekends, but then chops them up into bits when the 'peaks' come back.
'Peak' being the ironic factor unable to support all of the 'peak squad players'
Even with the caps as they are, if our squad switches blue, I'd still have problems getting in there due to the caps. Again, the old cap system was 'doable', but this just tightens the belt too much. The tight tight cap method is definitely 'cattle herding', knit picking, which equates to the expense of squad cooperation. 200 is just too tight for 'peak' evenings!
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EW... MW..... AVA ..... all have no caps.
Pick a week and everyone not happy with caps just fly one of those arenas. A Strike of sorts. :D
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One major difference between those two charts is how long someone has to play with 100 or less player on his arena.
In first chart such time goes on for several hours. On second chart it is only a bit over one hour.
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this thread is scarey :frown: