Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: HL117 on November 25, 2010, 01:32:23 PM
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Figured they would all be gone by now.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8582449.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8582449.stm)
HL
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In on the title basis alone.
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They may not be gone but this thread is lol IN
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They may not be gone but this thread is lol IN
:rofl
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They may not be gone but this thread is lol IN
:rock
IN!
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old sod should be shot :old:
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old sod should be shot :old:
Why, I feel bad for the old guys he prolly has a wife children and grandchildren and they NOW deside to punish him, maybe if it was a couple years after the war, but not now
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Can't believe the german courts where fighting his comer
Shame
Time and tide wait for no man
Bet he's been looking over his shoulder all his life
Bet he's glad to some extent to face his justice
If he has a soul
Weird times to live
If you where born in Germany at the time, what would you have been like
Scary question
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Why, I feel bad for the old guys he prolly has a wife children and grandchildren and they NOW deside to punish him, maybe if it was a couple years after the war, but not now
If he was a Japanese war scum would you agree don't be a idiot Jockym, if your a child murderer if your caught 50 years later should you be let off :frown:
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Why, I feel bad for the old guys he prolly has a wife children and grandchildren and they NOW deside to punish him, maybe if it was a couple years after the war, but not now
"At no time in 1944 did I act with the feeling that I was committing a crime,"
I'm sure the families (if any managed to survive) of the bicycle shop owner and the a pharmacist would disagree with you. But you're just a kid and sometimes kids like yourself say foolish things. When you grew up, you'll understand.
ack-ack
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INteresting.
But on a serious note to the subject.
Hope the old BSTRD burns in hell
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If he was a Japanese war scum would you agree don't be a idiot Jockym, if your a child murderer if your caught 50 years later should you be let off :frown:
I would feel the same way if he was Japanese, it's the price if war, it awful and disgusting, but it's a bit late I think to trial him now.
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I have ways of treating people like this.
Grey dawn, and a wall. and all night to think about these two things in a dank dark room. All that man deserves.
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I'm sure the families (if any managed to survive) of the bicycle shop owner and the a pharmacist would disagree with you. But you're just a kid and sometimes kids like yourself say foolish things. When you grew up, you'll understand.
ack-ack
:furious it's the price of war, war is not what people want. Yes it is horrifying to know what the nazi's did to the people of other religion, race, and other countries. The old guy will probably die soon anyways, so why make a huge trial for the old man anyway
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Why, I feel bad for the old guys he prolly has a wife children and grandchildren and they NOW deside to punish him, maybe if it was a couple years after the war, but not now
It's not like they decided some years later to randomly start prosecuting war criminals.
From the article,
"He admitted the killings to the Dutch authorities when he was in captivity after World War II, but managed to escape from his POW camp and returned to Germany, where he has since lived.
In 1949, a tribunal in Amsterdam sentenced him to death in his absence - later commuted to life in prison.
A Dutch extradition request was turned down by the West German government in the early 1980s, after a court ruled that there was a possibility Boere had German citizenship.
Following a request that Boere serve his sentence in Germany, a German appeals court ruled three years ago that the 1949 trial was unfair because he had not been present.
He was eventually indicted in April 2008, but a court then said he was unfit to stand trial, largely because of heart problems. The decision was eventually overruled on appeal last July. "
So it would seem that it was a mixture of his own escape from prison, bureaucratic issues, a Dutch attempt to prosecute him while West Germany felt it was their own right, and a decision to rerun the trial on Boere's behalf (and then a delay of that trial based on his health) that resulted his delay in (re)sentencing. And, of course, he's appealing the decision.
Can't believe the german courts where fighting his comer
Shame
What?
:furious it's the price of war, war is not what people want. Yes it is horrifying to know what the nazi's did to the people of other religion, race, and other countries. The old go will probably die soon anyways, so why make a huge trial for the old man anyway
The price of war is gunning down civilians of an occupied country (your own country, for God's sake) in the street?
I never thought I'd see someone defending Nazi war crimes on this board.
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INteresting.
But on a serious note to the subject.
Hope the old BSTRD burns in hell
:salute
i would hang the scum my self and then have a cup of tea, and if your a liberal i would make you work 12 shifts for 10 years on low wages and then ask you if your are liberal.
by the way Hitlers dad was his uncle enough said :x
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i had a NSU 1957 Prima D, it came with a garage full of spares as well.
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The price of war is gunning down civilians of an occupied country (your own country, for God's sake) in the street?
I never thought I'd see someone defending Nazi war crimes on this board.
I'm not defending any Nazi member, I'm just saying the guy was following orders, he will be dead soon anyways, so what's worth all the drama.
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i am going to set Ben on you JockyM and you know what that means? :x
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i am going to set Ben on you JockyM and you know what that means? :x
:rofl anything but your dog!!!!!! :rofl, I may be wring but micky said your dog is bent
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I'm not defending any Nazi member, I'm just saying the guy was following orders, he will be dead soon anyways, so what's worth all the drama.
The guy killed three civilians, three of his countrymen. A father of twelve, a man who helped to hide Jews, and a man trying to free his country from foreign oppression. Justice doesn't expire.
*edit: foreign compression lol
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The guy killed three civilians, three of his countrymen. A father of twelve, a man who helped to hide Jews, and a man trying to free his country from foreign compression. Justice doesn't expire.
I'm not going to argue, we all have views on things and that's yours, it is very sick what he did and I know that wont change
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Joach1m, respectfully, stop writing and start reading:-
http://www.eerebegraafplaats.nl/vijfde.html
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a) Maybe a soldier is responsible of the righteousness of orders he is carrying out?
b) Maybe he is guilty even if he decided to protect his own life by agreeing to carry out orders he did not agree with but maybe would have been shot if he didn't?
c) Maybe he made the fatal decision already when he became part of the "silver branch" and probably knew what he was set out to do eventually? IF he had a choice that is.
-C+
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Besides Russia, were there no other allied countrys the commited war crimes too? what this man did may not be some different then what american or brittish soliders did, all sides commited war crimes in ww2, you just hear more about the germans because they lost
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I'm not defending any Nazi member, I'm just saying the guy was following orders, he will be dead soon anyways, so what's worth all the drama.
Reread what you typed. You did in so many words.
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Besides Russia, were there no other allied countrys the commited war crimes too? what this man did may not be some different then what american or brittish soliders did, all sides commited war crimes in ww2, you just hear more about the germans because they lost
My thoughts exactly
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Reread what you typed. You did in so many words.
I didn't directly say it, it LOOKS like I did. Im done posting on this
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Besides Russia, were there no other allied countrys the commited war crimes too? what this man did may not be some different then what american or brittish soliders did, all sides commited war crimes in ww2, you just hear more about the germans because they lost
Just because others can't get punished, doesn't mean that you shouldn't prosecute the ones that you can.
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Correct Bubi.
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Just because others can't get punished, doesn't mean that you shouldn't prosecute the ones that you can.
they could have gotten punished and they didnt thoguh, that is all I was trying to say, not sticking up for anyone, just stating my oppinion
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they could have gotten punished and they didnt thoguh, that is all I was trying to say, not sticking up for anyone, just stating my oppinion
You can't punish the winners, it doesn't work that way... Could you imagine the outrage that would happen in the US if WWII veterans were brought on trial for war crimes and looting?
It would never happen.
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There is no statute of limitations on warcrimes. Following orders is not a defense.
He better hope my cousins in Israel don't grab him because he will get whats coming to him. wow. :mad:
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There is no statute of limitations on warcrimes. Following orders is not a defense.
He better hope my cousins in Israel don't grab him because he will get whats coming to him. wow. :mad:
Ack? Jherne? Sim? Murdr? Wide?
I don't trust net searches on subjects this deep and the bookstores are closed. I could use some education because I am ignorant.
No sarcasm intended Tomcat I just trust their sources and their posts on subjects as in depth as these.
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none taken. I see Nazi and I get annoyed.
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Besides Russia, were there no other allied countrys the commited war crimes too? what this man did may not be some different then what american or brittish soliders did, all sides commited war crimes in ww2, you just hear more about the germans because they lost
Last time I checked none of the Allies rounded up civilians as "hostages" and shoot them in retaliation. I am also unaware of any Allied country rounding up million of civilians, placing them in camps and systematically executing them. I am also unaware of any Allied country, again taking million of civilians and using them as forced slave labor. Please tell me which Allied countries did the above.
ack-ack
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they could have gotten punished and they didnt thoguh, that is all I was trying to say, not sticking up for anyone, just stating my oppinion
That's not true, many US servicemen were found guilty and either served long prison sentences or executed for committing crimes against civilians during WW2.
ack-ack
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Last time I checked none of the Allies rounded up civilians as "hostages" and shoot them in retaliation. I am also unaware of any Allied country rounding up million of civilians, placing them in camps and systematically executing them. I am also unaware of any Allied country, again taking million of civilians and using them as forced slave labor. Please tell me which Allied countries did the above.
ack-ack
Didn't Russia do all those things Ack? (Serious)
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Hell, look at the trouble Patton got in for a slapping a soldier. Let see there was the Malmedy Massacre during the Battle of the Bulge, something like 89 US soldiers were shot in cold blood by SS. These people committed crimes against military and civilian alike. The US has always prosecuted its own for warcrimes (see Abu Gharib), (see mei lei massacre).
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Stalin and Mao tse tung both murdered millions but not in the inhumane manner that the Nazi's did. I don't think they performed experiments on their victims either.
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none taken. I see Nazi and I get annoyed.
As do I but I'm hesitant to paint with a broad brush until I have hard factual evidence. The gentlemen I requested input from are invaluable sources of good information in my opinion. If nothing else they can point me towards the info so I can read it and formulate my own opinions.
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I applaud you for that :salute. My dad served in Europe during WWII and he was involved in liberation of some of the camps and having attended lectures given by survivors and that is basis of what I go on.
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Stalin and Mao tse tung both murdered millions but not in the inhumane manner that the Nazi's did. I don't think they performed experiments on their victims either.
The Soviet Union was responsible for crimes against humanity at very least equal to that of Nazi Germany, in savageness alone, to say nothing of the numbers.
Unfortunately, since they were the 'good guys' at the time...
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Its more than a bit of a stretch to compare the overall actions of the western allied soldiers to those of the Nazi's, and the Japs.
Australian beaufighters were notorious for machine gunning jap sailors in the water, and in many many actions Australian soldiers did not give quarter on the battlefield - but its not even worth arguing the conduct of these men (or any western allied soldier) off the battlefields to prisoners and civilians compared to the Axis, especially to scum like the Einsatzgruppen or Jap construction battalions.
Tronsky
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Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany are both the same in that respect. But would you rather the Nazi's or the Russians?
Personally, any Nazi, or anyone who idolizes Adolf Hitler, deserves nothing less than a wall at dawn, or a short drop and a sudden stop. We fried their sorry rears from land sea and air for a reason. And I will be damned to see even one of them alive.
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You can't punish the winners, it doesn't work that way...
Quite a sense of entitlement(which no civilization should tolerate)...
Repeat what I state in your head
MIGHT DOES NOT MAKE RIGHT
We are talking about CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY. If you commit a heinous act you should be punished irregardless of 'who' won the war, end of story. The preservation of justice is imperative for civil societies to operate.
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Last time I checked none of the Allies rounded up civilians as "hostages" and shoot them in retaliation. I am also unaware of any Allied country rounding up million of civilians, placing them in camps and systematically executing them. I am also unaware of any Allied country, again taking million of civilians and using them as forced slave labor. Please tell me which Allied countries did the above.
ack-ack
Russia did... (some examples)
Katyn massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre)
massacre at Treuenbrietzen
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.berlinonline.de/berliner-zeitung/archiv/.bin/dump.fcgi/2008/1125/brandenburg/0020/index.html&ei=amfvTNL1K4K6sAO3pdifCw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDEQ7gEwAg&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTreuenbrietzen%2Bmassacre%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26prmd%3Div (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.berlinonline.de/berliner-zeitung/archiv/.bin/dump.fcgi/2008/1125/brandenburg/0020/index.html&ei=amfvTNL1K4K6sAO3pdifCw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDEQ7gEwAg&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTreuenbrietzen%2Bmassacre%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26prmd%3Div)
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is this thread ended yet, we all know right from wrong and we all know you are responsible for your own actions :old:
We have prisons full of scum who don't agree with the above, by the way i hate liberals!
Liberal = too much money and time on your hands :old:
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...by the way i hate liberals!
Whats that smell?..... is it a troll, or maybe stinky bait?
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Whats that smell its a Liberal letting Hitler rearm and appeasement,
Liberal = they are not crimminals its societies fault ok your right its "Troll" as you Americans say.
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If you think it couldn't happen in America or any country may I suggest you read 'The Wave' by Morton Rhue.
Not letting anybody off the hook for atrocities but it's dang easy to become a member of the sheepole. Just sayin.
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I am amazed by how many of you are judging this man. Saying he deserves a firing squad and to burn in hell. That may be right. Just is it really your place to say this man should die. Personally if you we're gonna say he should die, I wouldn't think you we're to much better then the Nazis.
(http://www.genesis.net.au/~bible/bible.gif)
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Harry Potter book for me :old:
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Interesting to see the mixed views we have here.
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Whats that smell?..... is it a troll, or maybe stinky bait?
He's just a teenager and is in a spamming war with JOACH1M. If one posts the other must post and rinse, repeat. Don't even waste your time Ardy.
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Russia did... (some examples)
Katyn massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre)
massacre at Treuenbrietzen
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.berlinonline.de/berliner-zeitung/archiv/.bin/dump.fcgi/2008/1125/brandenburg/0020/index.html&ei=amfvTNL1K4K6sAO3pdifCw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDEQ7gEwAg&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTreuenbrietzen%2Bmassacre%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26prmd%3Div (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.berlinonline.de/berliner-zeitung/archiv/.bin/dump.fcgi/2008/1125/brandenburg/0020/index.html&ei=amfvTNL1K4K6sAO3pdifCw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDEQ7gEwAg&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTreuenbrietzen%2Bmassacre%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26prmd%3Div)
I almost put Katyn up there last night, but was too sick.
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There was a member here, until PNGed, that was of a questionable political affiliation. He is a stanch defender of everything Nazi.
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what its alright that Hitlers dad was his uncle?
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I am amazed by how many of you are judging this man. Saying he deserves a firing squad and to burn in hell. That may be right. Just is it really your place to say this man should die. Personally if you we're gonna say he should die, I wouldn't think you we're to much better then the Nazis.
(http://www.genesis.net.au/~bible/bible.gif)
Funny you should post a pic of that book.........doesn't it say in there "and an eye for an eye"?
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He's just a teenager and is in a spamming war with JOACH1M. If one posts the other must post and rinse, repeat. Don't even waste your time Ardy.
1. Zack is not a teenager far from it(no offense :)) 2. you my friend, your just an old crabby man who has nothing better to do beside flame people
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JockyM's right :banana:
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The man committed crimes in WW2. He got what he deserved. Doesn't matter how long ago the crimes were committed.
My two cents' worth. That is all.
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Funny you should post a pic of that book.........doesn't it say in there "and an eye for an eye"?
And the Book also says alot about forgiveness.
Colossians 3:13
Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
Luke 6:37
Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
Matthew 6:14-16
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
Mark 11:25
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.
Just a few of many that tell the same thing. Forgiveness. :aok
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Im sure this will be locked and a few PNG's will be given out by the time this is all said and done
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My point has been proven. :rofl
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yes ur right :old: and its boring now
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where are all you living? it is called a "legal state", "state of law", "state of justice", or "state of rights" right?
We have rules, and a murder is a murder. If you free this man, then free all other prisoners too. But this dont work
in a state of law!
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America's war crimes, american indian's.
No nation on this planet is free of "war crimes" that is simply a impossability with humanity and war.
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Whats that smell its a Liberal letting Hitler rearm and appeasement,
Neville Chamberlain was a conservative.
Tronsky
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Quite a sense of entitlement(which no civilization should tolerate)...
I have no sense of entitlement, I have a sense of reality.
Like I said, could you imagine what would happen if you tried to bring American soldiers on trial for looting or what have you?
Andrew Jackson's on the $20!
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reminds me of QB7... a great book btw...
I dont have a true opinion on it as i wasnt there.
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Unfortunately during war, nobodys hands are clean..... The US / Philipino War is an example
Throughout the entire war American soldiers would write home about the horrors and atrocities which the United States committed in the Philippines. In these letters they would criticize General Otis and the U.S. military; so when these letters reached anti-imperialist editors they became national news and forced the War Department to look into their truthfulness. Two of the letters went as follows: 1) A New York born soldier – “The town of Titatia [ sic] was surrendered to us a few days ago, and two companies occupy the same. Last night one of our boys was found shot and his stomach cut open. Immediately orders were received from General Wheaton to burn the town and kill every native in sight; which was done to a finish. About 1,000 men, women and children were reported killed. I am probably growing hard-hearted, for I am in my glory when I can sight my gun on some dark skin and pull the trigger (Benevolent Assimilation, pg. 88).”[81] 2) Corporal Sam Gillis – “We make everyone get into his house by seven p.m., and we only tell a man once. If he refuses we shoot him. We killed over 300 natives the first night. They tried to set the town on fire. If they fire a shot from the house we burn the house down and every house near it, and shoot the natives, so they are pretty quiet in town now.”[81]
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Stalin and Mao
tung both murdered millions but not in the inhumane manner that the Nazi's did. I don't think they performed experiments on their victims either.
Humane murder is an oxymoron.
-Penguin
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Humane murder is an oxymoron.
-Penguin
Agreed.
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Humane murder is an oxymoron.
-Penguin
what about the time a CO (or somebody of higher rank) shot a fellow countryman pilot in the head, because despite efforts they could not remove him from the cockpit as he was being burned alive?
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What comes around goes around. I find it good that 70 years later, he's put on trial and has to face the disgrace to his family and is reminded once again of the crimes he committed.
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Neville Chamberlain was a conservative.
Tronsky
yes i know i am on about sitting on the fence. head in the sand do gooders who are liberal because they are rich and selfush.
worms and spice!
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my personal opinion
10 years or so after the war i would find it right to convict a nazi actually just right to convict a SS member (even though there were thosands of them) but 60 years after the fact?! plus the fact the most of them were gonna be shot if they didnt do what ever their commanding officer wanted
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plus the fact the most of them were gonna be shot if they didnt do what ever their commanding officer wanted
I wanted to stay out of this thread... but this ^^^^ is for most part a myth.
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I wanted to stay out of this thread... but this ^^^^ is for most part a myth.
Really?
I doubt it. Prosecuting him now is absolutely ridiculous, let him be.
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I wanted to stay out of this thread... but this ^^^^ is for most part a myth.
ok so if you just said "hey im not gonna shoot them" what do you think they would do?
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ok so if you just said "hey im not gonna shoot them" what do you think they would do?
It's not about what i think that would have happened, but what really happened. There has been extensive historical research on that matter.
For example by the Central Office of the State Justice Administration for the Investigation of National Socialist Crimes, which conducted a lot of research on that topic since the 60's
They found no evidence that a "Exekutionsverweigerer" (someone who denied to execute) was actually shot himself. Of course some (not all!) were being reprimanded, by disciplinary transfers, degradations and so on, but no execution.
One of the most infamous units, the Reserve-Polizei-Battalion 101 was taking part in mass execution of Jews in Poland. A very few men refused to take part. They were simply sent back to Hamburg. (If you want to learn more about this: "Ordinary Men : Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland, by Christopher Browning, New York 1992)
Another historical example was the case of three company leaders who had been ordered to execute the jewish population of their respective cantonment in White Russia:
- Oberleutnant Hermann Kuhls immediately obeyed.
- Hauptmann Friedrich Nöll asked for an additional written affirmation, after getting this, he followed this order.
- Oberleutnant Josef Sibille simply refused to shoot civillians. He was asked by his superiors if he will ever be tough, he answered never, and that was it. Nothing more happened.
(Documented by the second Wehrmachtsaustellung)
The "trick" was to create a cultural / psychological environment in which soldiers did not eve thought about stepping out of line. But this is a very big topic all of it's own ;)
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Amen Lusche.
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State Justice Administration for the Investigation of National Socialist Crimes
Not to trivialize the matter, but knowing German I imagine this is all one or two words? What is/are they/it, out of curiousity?
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Not to trivialize the matter, but knowing German I imagine this is all one or two words? What is/are they/it, out of curiousity?
The German title is "Zentrale Stelle der Landesjustizverwaltungen zur Aufklärung nationalsozialistischer Verbrechen"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Office_of_the_State_Justice_Administration_for_the_Investigation_of_National_Socialist_Crimes
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It's not about what i think that would have happened, but what really happened. There has been extensive historical research on that matter.
For example by the Central Office of the State Justice Administration for the Investigation of National Socialist Crimes, which conducted a lot of research on that topic since the 60's
They found no evidence that a "Exekutionsverweigerer" (someone who denied to execute) was actually shot himself. Of course some (not all!) were being reprimanded, by disciplinary transfers, degradations and so on, but no execution.
One of the most infamous units, the Reserve-Polizei-Battalion 101 was taking part in mass execution of Jews in Poland. A very few men refused to take part. They were simply sent back to Hamburg. (If you want to learn more about this: "Ordinary Men : Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland, by Christopher Browning, New York 1992)
Another historical example was the case of three company leaders who had been ordered to execute the jewish population of their respective cantonment in White Russia:
- Oberleutnant Hermann Kuhls immediately obeyed.
- Hauptmann Friedrich Nöll asked for an additional written affirmation, after getting this, he followed this order.
- Oberleutnant Josef Sibille simply refused to shoot civillians. He was asked by his superiors if he will ever be tough, he answered never, and that was it. Nothing more happened.
(Documented by the second Wehrmachtsaustellung)
The "trick" was to create a cultural / psychological environment in which soldiers did not eve thought about stepping out of line. But this is a very big topic all of it's own ;)
Sir, when I grow up, I wanna be smart like you. :salute
-Penguin
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(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/007rusty/popcorn.gif)
IN
:bolt:
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The German title is "Zentrale Stelle der Landesjustizverwaltungen zur Aufklärung nationalsozialistischer Verbrechen"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Office_of_the_State_Justice_Administration_for_the_Investigation_of_National_Socialist_Crimes
Ah, OK, I asked because I'd figured it would be one of those ridiculous compound words like Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz that seem to pop out of German legal stuff.
/hijack
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It's not about what i think that would have happened, but what really happened. There has been extensive historical research on that matter.
For example by the Central Office of the State Justice Administration for the Investigation of National Socialist Crimes, which conducted a lot of research on that topic since the 60's
They found no evidence that a "Exekutionsverweigerer" (someone who denied to execute) was actually shot himself. Of course some (not all!) were being reprimanded, by disciplinary transfers, degradations and so on, but no execution.
One of the most infamous units, the Reserve-Polizei-Battalion 101 was taking part in mass execution of Jews in Poland. A very few men refused to take part. They were simply sent back to Hamburg. (If you want to learn more about this: "Ordinary Men : Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland, by Christopher Browning, New York 1992)
Another historical example was the case of three company leaders who had been ordered to execute the jewish population of their respective cantonment in White Russia:
- Oberleutnant Hermann Kuhls immediately obeyed.
- Hauptmann Friedrich Nöll asked for an additional written affirmation, after getting this, he followed this order.
- Oberleutnant Josef Sibille simply refused to shoot civillians. He was asked by his superiors if he will ever be tough, he answered never, and that was it. Nothing more happened.
(Documented by the second Wehrmachtsaustellung)
The "trick" was to create a cultural / psychological environment in which soldiers did not eve thought about stepping out of line. But this is a very big topic all of it's own ;)
Not everyone knows what "white russia" is. Lets call it Belarussia:)
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Not everyone knows what "white russia" is. Lets call it Belarussia:)
I know that sad tale all too well :salute
-Penguin
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Not everyone knows what "white russia" is. Lets call it Belarussia:)
Ahh the traps of foreign languages... It's called Weißrussland in German so I lapsed and translated it literally
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SS Soldiers were all volunteers as far as I am aware, and all of those had to fit genetic and physical criteria and undergo intense "Nazification".
I hold no ill will against any member of the Luftwaffe, Wehrmacht or Kriegsmarine who acted under orders in the defence of their nation and its interests, whatever those interests may be. But any member of the SS or Gestapo and fervant or self proclaimed Nazi's, deserve to be shot, hanged or tortured until death in reverse order for what they are responsible for.
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SS Soldiers were all volunteers as far as I am aware, and all of those had to fit genetic and physical criteria and undergo intense "Nazification".
I hold no ill will against any member of the Luftwaffe, Wehrmacht or Kriegsmarine who acted under orders in the defence of their nation and its interests, whatever those interests may be. But any member of the SS or Gestapo and fervant or self proclaimed Nazi's, deserve to be shot, hanged or tortured until death in reverse order for what they are responsible for.
Just a few related words:
Only at the beginning the Waffen-SS was an all-volunteer force. From 1943 on, you could been drafted to the Waffen SS. And many of that volunteers were simply very young boys (17) who did grow up during the Third Reich and were simply going for the "best" or allegedly most "awesome" combat unit.
Also neither Wehrmacht, Kriegsmarine or Luftwaffe were anti-nazi per se in any way. Many atrocities, from shooting hostages and prisoners to taking part in the final solution, were commited by regular Wehrmacht or police units. Many of them defended themselves after the war with having "acted under orders in the defence of their nation and its interests"
While Luftwaffe & Kriegsmarine had a lower part in such events simply due to their wartime role & organisation, they still were not free for it. Particularly the Luftwaffe was known as the "national-socialistic arm", which doesn't wonder if one bears in mind when it was created and by whom. The Luftwaffe conducted gruesome human experiments with concentration camps inmates.
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I wanted to stay out of this thread... but this ^^^^ is for most part a myth.
SS Alibi of a Nation good book :old:
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"Our revenge is to live. We may be hunted like animals but we will never become animals. We have all chosen this - to live free, like human beings. For as long as we can. Each day of freedom is a victory. If we die trying to live, at least we die like human beings." Tuvia- Movie Defiance.
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Figured they would all be gone by now.
Here in NJ just a few years ago they found a guy that I believe they said was a camp guard or something of that nature. The story was in the local news papers for a bit. If my memory serves me his son was a NJ state police officer. Last I heard they were sending him back to wherever it was his crimes took place.
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See Rule #4
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Germany's honor? what a strange and odd thing to talk about :old:
Those countries who talk about honor usually have none and those who talk about how religeous they are usually are not :)
My next door neigbour goes to church every sunday and stomps home after he is saved, nasty old sod he is, he has a little square tache as well:eek:
i have noticed Americans view the Japanese far worse than the Germans why is this?
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i have noticed Americans view the Japanese far worse than the Germans why is this?
I think this comes from the savagery of those fights and the public relations campaigns of the time. They were very brutal and total fights. No quarter was asked and very little given. The things that went on in China, The Bataan death march, Kamikaze, Banzai charges, "sneak attack" on Pearl Harbor. In the news the Japanese were made to look sub human. A bit of racism thrown in. I dont think the Germans are looked on as any better its just the war againts the Japanese appeared so much different and brutal.
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its been said people are cruel to their own first before they are cruel to others :old:
japanese game shows are rather cruel and Germans wearing leather shorts is odd as well :old:
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in referance to German technical prowess PIPZ they lost the war all their technological secrets were all to see The Allies technological secrects were kept intact, Whittle invented the JET engine he was English :x
Lucky the European war ended when it did or it could have been Berlin, Nagasaki and Hiroshima :old:
Allies technological prowess = The Atom bomb and intact honor :old:
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Zach I am not sure but you may missunderstand me. You asked why many Amercians feel the Japanese were worse than the Germans. From talking with people over the years I gave you the best answere I can. Wether these reason are rite or wrong I am not debating it is just what I have picked up from people over the years.
Pipz
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:salute
:joystick:
:banana:
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SS Soldiers were all volunteers as far as I am aware, and all of those had to fit genetic and physical criteria and undergo intense "Nazification".
Not true, at least the genetic and physical criteria. Did you know that the SS was one of the most racially/culturally diverse military units of World War II? The SS was far more racially intergrated than the US Army was, with members ranging from Asian to Muslim. The irony.
ack-ack
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Zach I am not sure but you may missunderstand me. You asked why many Amercians feel the Japanese were worse than the Germans.
Pipz
Pearl Harbor is one reason and racial prejudice (on all sides) and the fact that the Asian concept of war was totally foreign to to our "western sensabilities".
ack-ack
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:salute
...and if your a liberal i would make you work 12 shifts for 10 years on low wages and then ask you if your are liberal...
:cheers: Go Conservatives!
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* tosses zach and adam a can of Brawndo each*
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* tosses zach and adam a can of Brawndo each*
Most of this thread needs one, also.
Every country that has ever been involved in a war has had people within it's ranks that have committed some form or another of war crimes. The degree of how much more "atrocious" one particular country's crimes are/were than another country is a matter of relativity.
Any debate to the contrary is not much more than throwing stones.
As Motherland has accurately stated, the winners will never face the music to the same degree that the losers will.
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i have noticed Americans view the Japanese far worse than the Germans why is this?
This is not a generally shared view among Americans; most Americans know almost nothing of Japanese war crimes.
It's pretty sad considering the Japanese did things that made the Nazis look like children.
Not true, at least the genetic and physical criteria. Did you know that the SS was one of the most racially/culturally diverse military units of World War II? The SS was far more racially intergrated than the US Army was, with members ranging from Asian to Muslim. The irony.
ack-ack
Bosniak volunteers of the 13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar (1st Croatian)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1980-036-05%2C_Amin_al_Husseini_bei_bosnischen_SS-Freiwilligen.jpg)
The Nazi treatment of Slavs was pretty interesting... Hitler considered the Russians subhuman, yet at the same time there were SS Divisions of not only Slavs, but Muslim Slavs...
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that bloke has a chamber pot on his head wtg.
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* tosses zach and adam a can of Brawndo each*
Zack not Zach my german sheep dog is called Zack :banana:
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Zack not Zach my german sheep dog is called Zack :banana:
So your dog is German... interesting info... :noid
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So your dog is German... interesting info... :noid
:noid
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The Nazi treatment of Slavs was pretty interesting... Hitler considered the Russians subhuman, yet at the same time there were SS Divisions of not only Slavs, but Muslim Slavs...
And there were also Mongolians, Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, Sri Lankans, Malaysians, Arab North Africans, black Africans from central Africa, Slavs like you mentioned, Persians, etc.
The sad stories are the Korean members, like the guy in the photo below.
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd219/beancent/japnormandy.jpg)
He was among a handful of Koreans captured by the Soviets during the Japanese-Soviet border clashes before the war. After being sent to a prison camp in Siberia, they were forced into Soviet penal battalions to help defend Moscow during the seige of the capital by the Germans. Being captured by the Germans, these Koreans were then forced to serve in the German army and captured at Normandy.
Chiang Kai Shek's son, Chiang Wei-kuo, graduated from the Munich Military Academy as an Unteroffizier and commanded a panzer company during the 1938 Austrian Anschluss. He was given a promotion to Leutnant of a panzer unit that was set to take part in the invasion of Poland before he was recalled back to China.
(http://fc05.deviantart.com/fs14/f/2007/061/2/4/The_Sino_German_soldier_by_SS_OschaWolf.jpg)
ack-ack
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Boy, this subject brings out the worst in some people on this board. I find that I'm intollerant of those that are the most intollerant.
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Boy, this subject brings out the worst in some people on this board. I find that I'm intollerant of those that are the most intollerant.
and I'm intolerant of your intolerance of others intolerance..........to tolerate those who do not tolerate uhhh wait I have to sit down now the room is spinning.
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and I'm intolerant of your intolerance of others intolerance..........to tolerate those who do not tolerate uhhh wait I have to sit down now the room is spinning.
:lol
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Yes, the Chinese Nationalists fought against the Japanese and were allied with the Nazis until the Tripartite Pact was signed in 1940. When they lost the Chinese civil war to the communists in 1949 they retreated to the island of Taiwan. They are now known as the Republic of China and are a US ally. War and politics makes for strange bedfellows...
(http://ww2total.com/WW2/History/Orders-of-Battle/China/China-soldiers-German-trained-px800.jpg)
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So your dog is German... interesting info... :noid
He is innocent of any crimes he is accused of :banana:
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He is innocent of any crimes he is accused of :banana:
are you honestly asking us to believe that?
this is the dog in question, am I wrong?
(http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk17/ambush001/dog-wig.jpg)
Just look at the hate in his eyes, I don't trust that dog nearly even half as far I could throw it!...actually better make it a quarter as far
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I don't trust that dog nearly even half as far I could throw it!...actually better make it a quarter as far
:lol
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Those shoes were trying to escape and refused to stop, he was following orders :banana:
He will make a dirty protest if accused :cry
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are you honestly asking us to believe that?
this is the dog in question, am I wrong?
(http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk17/ambush001/dog-wig.jpg)
Just look at the hate in his eyes, I don't trust that dog nearly even half as far I could throw it!...actually better make it a quarter as far
"What EEEZ it meng?"
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Germany's honor? what a strange and odd thing to talk about :old:
Those countries who talk about honor usually have none and those who talk about how religeous they are usually are not :)
My next door neigbour goes to church every sunday and stomps home after he is saved, nasty old sod he is, he has a little square tache as well:eek:
i have noticed Americans view the Japanese far worse than the Germans why is this?
A PR campaign on the part of German vets like Galland and Carious from the 50-70s, to make it like they were saving Europe from Communism instead of being the Nazi following scum they were.
Sadly the results are clear.
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are you honestly asking us to believe that?
this is the dog in question, am I wrong?
(http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk17/ambush001/dog-wig.jpg)
Just look at the hate in his eyes, I don't trust that dog nearly even half as far I could throw it!...actually better make it a quarter as far
never trust a dog wearing a toupee.
ack-ack
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never trust a dog wearing a toupee.
ack-ack
...which makes the dog look like Justin Bieber... :noid
-Penguin
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...which makes the dog look like Justin Bieber... :noid
-Penguin
Or Donald Trump...
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Or Donald Trump...
Thr horror, the horror!
-Penguin
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Again comes the Snail with the technicalities.
I have one point and one point only.
I see a Nazi I kill a Nazi. Simple as that. If he is connected to the Nazi party in anyway, hell even a concentration camp guard. He dies. end of story.
My thing is, I have no hatred towards Hans Lindel of the 38th Infantry Division "Kampfschkrite" (random out the donut example) who fought outside Caen. Or Luther Arfghlosht (again random) of 2nd Kampfgeshcwader He-111's.
I DO have a problem with SS and Gestapo members, and anyone who proclaims nazism. They die..
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IN.
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Killed many have you Plawranc?
Why don't you kill the Pope? He was SS.
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At this point Im just (http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy134/Kassill1/popcorn.gif)
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Again comes the Snail with the technicalities.
I have one point and one point only.
I see a Nazi I kill a Nazi. Simple as that. If he is connected to the Nazi party in anyway, hell even a concentration camp guard. He dies. end of story.
My thing is, I have no hatred towards Hans Lindel of the 38th Infantry Division "Kampfschkrite" (random out the donut example) who fought outside Caen. Or Luther Arfghlosht (again random) of 2nd Kampfgeshcwader He-111's.
I DO have a problem with SS and Gestapo members, and anyone who proclaims nazism. They die..
And you're just as bad as the people you hate :aok
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Maybe so Motherland. Maybe so. By that statement you condemn every Allied soldier who liberated a concentration camp or seen their friends killed right in front of them.
All the hostility, really. If I had the opportunity to kill every Nazi on this Earth PERSONALLY I would do it without any remorse nor compunction. AT ALL.
If I have the hatred for the ideaology responsible for the murder of several relatives and the destruction of both sides of my families homes TWICE and sent my Grand parents and uncles into psychological fear at any loud noise for the rest of their lives (My grandad had to mute the end of Dads Army every time it was shown because of the siren, he could not bear it). Then I guess its not warranted.
But then again I am biased against the people responsible for all that and the deaths of several hundred million people. You guys warrant their survival all you want I won't stop you.
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You would lay all that blame on the shoulders of an 18 year old, who's been raised by the Nazi state to believe in their twisted and seductive ideology, that he was superior, part of an enlightened chosen people, only to learn the hard way how wrong he was?
Even Darth Vader got a second chance, and he killed kids with a fluorescent tube!
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Maybe so Motherland. Maybe so. By that statement you condemn every Allied soldier who liberated a concentration camp or seen their friends killed right in front of them.
All the hostility, really. If I had the opportunity to kill every Nazi on this Earth PERSONALLY I would do it without any remorse nor compunction. AT ALL.
If I have the hatred for the ideaology responsible for the murder of several relatives and the destruction of both sides of my families homes TWICE and sent my Grand parents and uncles into psychological fear at any loud noise for the rest of their lives (My grandad had to mute the end of Dads Army every time it was shown because of the siren, he could not bear it). Then I guess its not warranted.
But then again I am biased against the people responsible for all that and the deaths of several hundred million people. You guys warrant their survival all you want I won't stop you.
Alright, I want you dead for being a citizen of the Commonwealth that's responsible for the repression and genocide of millions upon millions of people all around the world, including my countrymen until your poisonous leech was cast off.
You would lay all that blame on the shoulders of an 18 year old, who's been raised by the Nazi state to believe in their twisted and seductive ideology, that he was superior, part of an enlightened chosen people, only to learn the hard way how wrong he was?
He was Dutch
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Lusche's statement comes to the forefront.
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W0W!! :confused: isnt typing the subject word a no no in this forum?
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You would lay all that blame on the shoulders of an 18 year old, who's been raised by the Nazi state to believe in their twisted and seductive ideology, that he was superior, part of an enlightened chosen people, only to learn the hard way how wrong he was?
Even Darth Vader got a second chance, and he killed kids with a fluorescent tube!
So those terrorists who caused mass murder in the USA are to be forgiven because of idiology :joystick:
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What are you talking about Motherland The Commonwealth and Oliver Cromwell are wonderful :old:
What was Vietnam about then? Liberation from the yoke of Communism or American Imperialism?
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Maybe so Motherland. Maybe so. By that statement you condemn every Allied soldier who liberated a concentration camp or seen their friends killed right in front of them.
All the hostility, really. If I had the opportunity to kill every Nazi on this Earth PERSONALLY I would do it without any remorse nor compunction. AT ALL.
If I have the hatred for the ideaology responsible for the murder of several relatives and the destruction of both sides of my families homes TWICE
My Grandfather's ship the USS Monongahela (essentially his "home" for 4 years) was hit twice by Kamikaze pilots wherein one of those attacks threw him overboard and left him and a few others bobbing like corks in the South Pacific for a few hours until the Skipper effected repairs on the ship and got the chance to make the 5 mile u-turn to fish them all out of the water . Should he forever hate the Japanese? He is now 90 and I can't recall him ever saying one derogatory thing about the Japanese in my 40 years. In addition, my employer (who spent time in the camps) is Jewish, as is everyone excluding myself that works there, has never said an unkind word about the Germans, nor does he have a problem with me being proud of my German heritage. It's called forgiveness...
Your unbridled hatred and blind bigotry for people you have never dealt with, personally is truly remarkable. Reminiscent of the same people you so despise. Do you also have a white sheet and pointy hat hiding in your closet, somewhere?
Hello pot, this is the kettle...
and sent my Grand parents and uncles into psychological fear at any loud noise for the rest of their lives (My grandad had to mute the end of Dads Army every time it was shown because of the siren, he could not bear it).
Clearly the uneducated drivel of someone whom has neither served in a live combat situation, nor knows the extent of the ass-pucker factor that the thump of a mortar round being dropped in a tube (or something that sounds similar) can cause while waiting to see where the impact will land. How about the eerie resemblance that 4th of July firecrackers share with the distinctive clack of an AK-47 when one is unaware that someone is lighting them off?
Newsflash! Combat vets (and civilians) from all over the world suffer from Post Traumatic Stress (formerly known as shell shock). War is hell.
Then I guess its not warranted.
In your case? No, since you personally weren't the one that had to experience these horrors. Thanks for asking.
But then again I am biased against the people responsible for all that and the deaths of several hundred million people. You guys warrant their survival all you want I won't stop you.
Your ideology is rife with the sentiments of the people you so despise. Just in a different context, and against a different people...
Carry On. :salute
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So those terrorists who caused mass murder in the USA are to be forgiven because of idiology :joystick:
Most Germans were Nazis. Most Nazis did not personally commit mass murder.
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The Nazis did mass murder yes, but at least they didn't make a V-2 with a nuke on it. Thank god the war didn't last a day longer.
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Most Germans were Nazis. Most Nazis did not personally commit mass murder.
.....and not every German wore the Nazi Party pin. I think you got a little ahead of yourself on that one.
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See Rule #14
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Which is nothing more than an opinion again, while painting the population with a broad brush.
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Carry On. :salute
Well said sir, well said indeed. :aok :salute
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See Rule #14
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Your figures are torpedoed by Hitler's propoganda machine. Try again.
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Or, why don't you try to support your argument for a change and explain how the Nazis could have done all that they did without overwhelming support from the German population? I'd love to see that.
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You're grasping at straws and it's hilarious. :rofl
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at least the topic has got people's backs up, better than talkjng about celebrity come dancing :old: