Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Fury on February 15, 2001, 11:33:00 AM
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My PC is basically a glorified gaming machine (AH, offline stuff like that). With that in mind I'm just going to show the basics of what I am questioning and hopefully some hardware geek can let me know what might be more important.
Here are two options I am considering, then I'll ask my question.
64MB DDR NVIDIA GeForce2 Ultra Graphics w/TV Out
Intel® Pentium® III Processor 1000MHz with Advanced Transfer Cache
256MB 133MHz SDRAM (2-128 modules)
vs.
64MB DDR NVIDIA GeForce2 Ultra Graphics w/TV Out
Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor 1400 MHz (1.4GHz)
128MB RDRAM PC800
The P4 has a higher processor but less RAM; however it is RDRAM PC800 (whatever that is) and the RAM is hugely expensive to go to 256. To a non-techie like me that makes it sound like a good RAM.
The P3 has a lower processor but higher RAM.
Not considering price, would I see a huge difference in say AH or any other games with the P4 over the P3? Is the difference in RAM and processors that big of a deal?
If I consider price, the P4 is obviously more expensive -- would it be worth spending the extra money for it, higher processor but lower RAM?
Lastly, is the GeForce an overkill? Should I go back to 32megs?
Please don't hesitate to spam your opinions, I'm just looking for some input before I make a decision. I don't hold anyone to what they have to say about this.
Everything else on the boxes is moot to me right now -- I kinda thought the vid card, RAM, and processor were more important for this particular discussion.
As a side note, the sick part about this is I can get the above machines for about 60% of what I paid for my Pentium Pro 200mhz with a crap vid card and 64meg RAM four years ago :/ LOL!
TYIA
Fury
edti: oh yea, is there other techie stuff I need to be thinking about?
[This message has been edited by Fury (edited 02-15-2001).]
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Both sound great. Can't say you'd lose out with either for today's games. If I had to choose I'd go for the P4 as that is tomorrows board where the p3 is today's technology (as games go). Stick with the 64 mb on the video.. PC800 is the speed of the ram. Like the 133 on the other board, determined by bus of motherboard, the 800 is the latest and greatest thus the $$$'s.
Eagler
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Any reason why you are limited yourself to Intels? After a lot of research, I've opted to go with the Athlon.
We got an Athlon 800 here at work and its amazing. Haven't had an iota of trouble.
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Paul J. Busiere
http://bd5.checksix.net (http://bd5.checksix.net)
BD-5 "T" (TurboProp) 90% complete, first flight in 2001 (We hope!)
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I went from 128 megs of ram to 256, with no FR increase in Aces high, so from MY prospective, its CPU.
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Wow, that's quite a system either way.
I'd go with a top-end Athlon Thunderbird 1.2 Gig. It outperforms 'em all. The P4 won't get good for at least one more generation, and Intel is changing the socket again, so there will NOT be an upgrade path for a P4 system. I think the Athlon 1.2 will out perform the P4 right now in most areas. Quake 3 may be a possible exception, but I think the Athlon would win in a game like AH.
IMHO, get a new KX133A based mainboard, 256 Megs of Crucial PC133 Cas2 RAM, an Athlon Thunderbird 1.2, and that video card if you can afford it. It will have more future upgradeability than a P4 or P3 system would. Not that any of them will upgradeable for long. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Now if you have to choose between only the two options you gave, I'd go with the 256 megs of RAM and the P3. The first generation P4 is kinda crippled, and way over priced.
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Lephturn - Aces High Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome! (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
"Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know." - Michel Eyquem, seigneur de Montaigne. (1533–1592)
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 02-15-2001).]
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I have to agree with every word Lephturn posted.
Avoid the current P4 offerings they are a dead end.
And the current AMD Tbirds outperform 1.5Ghz P4's even at 1.2 Ghz
The RDram is so expensive because they are producing it in relatively small amounts, hell thay cant even convince the Ram manufacturers to commit to it as much as they would like.
[This message has been edited by 214thCavalier (edited 02-15-2001).]
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My choice of Pentium is name-recognition only. I have no experience with AMD nor do I know (personally) anyone with experience. I only hesitate with AMD because of fear of unknown and worry that everything will run as good as my experience with my PPro. I guess I'll look into the AMD stuff a bit more.
Thanks
Mike
errr... Fury. Sheesh I'm starting to mix up work emails and play postings lol
[This message has been edited by Fury (edited 02-15-2001).]
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first: I thought RAM doesn't fly anymore. second: never saw a guy named CPU here but if he's around, I hope he kicked RAM's derriere
;-))
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Video RAM plus CPU speed seems to be the best once you're over 128meg RAM.
The 64meg GeForce 2 DDR works great for me with a PIII.. I get up to 120FPS at 1280x1024
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First off, don't go for the P4 - too expensive by far - and it's all change on the P4 front this summer. If you must buy now, take a look at the ABit VP6 with two P3-1000s running Win2K. Otherwise hold off a bit for the dual Athlon boards.
As for memory, the more the merrier - 256 MB or 512 MB will be plenty. (eek! I remember when 512 *bytes* was your lot!)
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qts
[This message has been edited by qts (edited 02-15-2001).]
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EWW!!! RDRAM, nasty nasty nasty. It's exnoodleve, it's not PC1600 (so the P4 will be even slower because the memory clock will create a huge bottleneck), and it's pricey as hell. Go P3.
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===>Frosty
====>Exposure2k.com
=====>Frosty@exposure2k.com
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Originally posted by Eagler:
Both sound great. Can't say you'd lose out with either for today's games. If I had to choose I'd go for the P4 as that is tomorrows board where the p3 is today's technology (as games go). Stick with the 64 mb on the video.. PC800 is the speed of the ram. Like the 133 on the other board, determined by bus of motherboard, the 800 is the latest and greatest thus the $$$'s.
Eagler
You're actually wrong. The P4 uses propriety crap that won't be a standard. It costs arseloads of money and requires special cooling layouts etc etc. Upgrades will be pointless. PC800 isn't the fastest RDRAM right now either. It's the low-end RDRAM which means that you won't get all the speed out of your P4. The P4 is reliant on PC1600 RDRAM for optimal performance. PC1600 is what you need for a P4. Anyways, the Pentium 4 is a rushed chip. Go AMD. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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===>Frosty
====>Exposure2k.com
=====>Frosty@exposure2k.com
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Why does everyone overlook the memory nowadays? BTW Fury, are you buying a Dell system?
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Fury, I have to agree with Lephturn - very good advice.
I have the ABit KT7 motherboard (KX133 based) and the Athlon TBird 900. It has been a great system and performs like a champ. The KX133A chipset (Via, btw) is a bit better and supports a faster RAM speed so has an upgrade path.
I have not had a single problem with this mb/CPU combination and it runs with the big dogs - and kicks their butts too (except the really big dogs with the 1.2 gig TBirds ;-)
Check out Tom's Hardware (www.tomshardware.com) for more info.
The P4 will definitely be overpriced for a while and is really for those who just need to tell everyone else they have a P4. The AMD TBirds are very high rated chips - higher than P3s - and cost less.
As to upgradability, I wouldn't worry about it that much. With every single CPU upgrade I've ever done, I've also upgraded the motherboard - because it was required by the case design, power supply design, etc. Don't know how true that will hold but so far, CPU advances have been accompanied by chipset and motherboard advances so any major upgrade requires a new motherboard. The only thing I really upgrade between motherboard/CPU upgrades is the RAM, video, hard drive, etc.
You know, anyone can go out and buy a "computer". Where the torture comes is when you try to buy an optimum configuration with quality parts like you are wanting to do. I end up building my systems from parts and never buy from places like Dell, Gateway, Micron, and heaven forbid - Packard Bell. They all scrimp in different areas and generally have non-upgradable proprietary board layouts, case layouts, etc. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Rape, pillage, then burn...
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Any computer expert will likely discourage you from buying a P3 or P4 system, unless they are the ones making money from selling it to you.
The P3 is done in it's current Socket 370 form. It is totally obsolete now as well. The P4 is horribly expensive, performs well under expectations, requires special (Rambus junk) ram, AND buying one now will not allow you to upgrade beyond 1.7 GHz. (Intel's roadmap shows this to be the fastest they will release in the 462 pin socket.)
The AMD Athlon Thunderbird in the 100 Mhz form will end at 1300 Mhz. The newer 133 Mhz FSB chips will likely reach nearly 2 Ghz by the end of the year. They will also outperform and are priced better than the P4 systems.
That said if I were building/buying a new system right now I would build it around the Asus A7M or A7V133 board. (The MSI and Abit boards are OK too.) I would make sure it supports the 133 Mhz FSB and DDR Ram support would be a plus for future upgradibility. AMD systems are harder to build yourself, but are no less stable than Intel based systems if done properly.
IMO Intel currently has no offerings that I would advise you to buy as being a good deal.
Personally I might wait and see what happens in the next couple months.
My guesses are: DDR Ram will catch on for Athlon based systems and will drop to price levels near standard SDRAM. Rambus RAM will continue to slowly drop in price, but will always remain overpriced. Intel will make one last attempt to market a slightly altered version of the obsolete P3 (Coppermine) core with clock speeds up to around 1.3 Ghz (will require new socket). AMD will release Thunderbirds at 1333 and 1500 Mhz within 2 months. Intel will release 1.3 Ghz P4s and 1.7 Ghz P4s within 2 months (right before the process shrink to .13 micron, and hence totally new socket. This processor is currently under the code name Northwood. Current P4s are known as Willamettes.), the Duron processor will reach 1 Ghz, the Celeron 900.
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Bloom, my AMD 900 TBird / ABit KT7 was a snap to build. I've built both Intel and AMD systems completely from scratch and there was no difference in difficulty between them by my experience. The AMD fired up first try - as did the Intel.
A few points about the ABit motherboards...
They are more friendly for overclocking with finer voltage and clock settings to allow very fine tweaking. All of that is set up in BIOS without having to crack the case whenever you decide to eek it up just a little more.
My ABit also has more slots than the comparable ASUS and I didn't have to pay for the network riser crud, an on-board Winmodem, or an onboard sound chip that I wouldn't use anyway.
I think the ASUS is just ever so slightly faster than the ABit though I'm not sure how they stack with the KX133A chipsets (mine is KX133).
But right now, everything really does point to AMD as the superior performer and way better in price/performance ratio. It isn't much faster than the Intel chips but it is faster nonetheless.
I don't know what Intel was thinking with their price plan other than that people won't try AMD because it is different than Intel. I was tempted to go Intel P3 on this system, but after doing a lot of research and looking at how well the AMDs were regarded, it was a no-brainer. I don't regret it at all and if I were building another system right now, hands-down it would be AMD TBird powered (most likely the 1 gig) and the ABit KT7a m/b.
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Rape, pillage, then burn...
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As somebody above said...
Don't overlook the RAM. Trust me on this, buy a good namebrand high performance RAM part like Crucial or Mushkin. Something known for high performance and quality. Buying generic no-name RAM will lead to system stability and performance problems in my experience.
Also, I think 256 megs is the magic number right now. Even a Win2k Pro machine will run great with that much RAM. 512 Meg runs into the law of diminishing returns, and you don't get very much benefit from the extra 256 Megs. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Lephturn - Aces High Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome! (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
"Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know." - Michel Eyquem, seigneur de Montaigne. (1533–1592)
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If you use Auto-Trim go with the Pentium III, if you groom your ride to the Nth Degree go AMD. My favorite Site for AMD and Intel Hi-Performance parts is...
http://ocz.safeshopper.com/ (http://ocz.safeshopper.com/)
Go with the 160 and up FSB tested Ram
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Translation: If you like being ripped off go Intel. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) If you like value and the best performance for your dollar go AMD.
AMD systems are not hard to set up and get stable, you just have to install everything in the correct order. (My system has only locked up 2 times since September. Both of these were due to bugs in IE 5. I've got the think overclocked 227 Mhz as well.)
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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RDRAM can best be described as yet another PC product thought up, designed, and created solely by a marketing department with the use of techies anywhere so as to keep costs down.
Its only marginally beaten out in dumbarse ideas department by that backup your Amiga to VHS tape idea someone came out with in the 80s.
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Just a note on memory: some motherboards support interleaving. If you have a m/b that does, go for it.
For example, the VP6 can take 4 dimms and supports 2 and 4-way interleaving, so getting 512MB (4x128) or 1 GB (4x256) is still sensible.
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qts
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I'd say go for a Thunderbird and DDR ram
is much cheaper than RDRAM and faster too.
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qts,
You don't need multiple DIMM sticks to support 4 way interleaving. It's interleaving between the "banks" of SDRAM, not between the sticks. A single stick of SDRAM 64 Megs or more normally supports 4-way interleaving.
http://www.rojakpot.com/Speed_Demonz/BIOS_Guide/BIOS_Guide_02a.htm#SDRAM%20Bank%20Interleave (http://www.rojakpot.com/Speed_Demonz/BIOS_Guide/BIOS_Guide_02a.htm#SDRAM%20Bank%20Interleave)
The important part is "All SDRAM DIMMs of at least 64MB in size or greater are 4-banked in nature.", so a single 256 meg or dual 128 meg DIMMs will support 4-bank interleaving just fine.
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Lephturn - Aces High Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome! (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
"Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know." - Michel Eyquem, seigneur de Montaigne. (1533–1592)
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Just a note on performance vs amount of RAM. I just bumped my RAM up to 256 from 128 and got no increase in FR.
Celeron 400 (oc'ed to 450)
Abit BX6R2
Asus TNT
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To everyone who replied with suggestions: thanks (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I've had my new pc for about 5 days now and it is rock solid. Yes, I'm a weenie and went through Gateway (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
AMD 1.1g
256meg RAM
64meg GeForce 2 Ultra
Seti runs in around 8 hours if I'm not touching it; AH runs at 61-71fps with the highest res and 32bit; and so far (fingers crossed) no problems running anything.
Compared to my old PC -- the good ole 200mhPPro with 128meg RAM and 16meg Creative TNT with 15-24 fps in AH...I'm sorta happy.
Fury