Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: JFalk on April 08, 2000, 05:48:00 PM
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Guys we need to think of a semi realistic way to get the travel time to engagement around 10-15 mins for tanks. Bases 1 square away are 25 miles apart, the tanks go 24 mph, thats over an hour travel time, right now tanks are used for defense and limited offense. Here are some ideas, some good some bad, feel free to add your own
1.) increase speed by about 10% but still display the correct max speeds ( kinda cheating), every little bit helps
2.) Put a improved road network in, giving an increase to speed
3.) Someone mentioned a rail system, how about each vehicle yard is linked to a train station that has a train that travels maybe 75-80 mph?
4.) What about an AI controlled High Command for each side that starts an offensive every 15-20 mins, if you want to take part in it your vehicle is placed 10-15k from the objective/front.
outta ideas now, maybe more will come to me
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.) Someone mentioned a rail system, how about each vehicle yard is linked to a train station that has a train that travels maybe 75-80 mph?
sounds like a great idea! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
No.310 squadron RAF "Czechoslovakia"
[This message has been edited by sr2053 (edited 04-08-2000).]
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I love these tanks. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) They are why I started my account last week. This is what I want. Its still early, but you can see how everyone loves this, since the arena hit an all time high player count.
The tanks are still a bit rough around the edges though. It does take a long time needed to reach the enemy in one.
It is not a problem though. Add some faster tanks latter on. The Sherman, T-34, and Panther tanks go 35mph.
I too think fudging the actual speeds of tanks isn't all that bad of an idea, especially since the terrain is efectivly a desert terrain.
No slowdown climing hills or smaller hills. What killed me was how long it took to cross a hill at 10mph in 3rd gear. The other factor would also be removing the 90mph coasting down the other side of the hill.
Or my personal favorite. A more army friendly map. The vehicle bases scattered about are nice, but too far away. I don't want more, I just thought they should be closer to the airfields. Make a paratrooper air assault to capture the army camp (one ack and one building are easy to take), then the army guys can spawn a force to roll over to the airfields.
Hanz.
[This message has been edited by Hans (edited 04-08-2000).]
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We want to keep things as accurate as possible, so I don't know about adding more speed. Trains and giant cargo planes will be neat, but are a ways off. I like Haha's ideas in his thread. But the short term solution would be closer fields. Much easier with the terrain editor. Cya up...Braz
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Trains, Roads (tunnels and bridges), Cargo planes or/and tank carriers (e.g. semi), ships also can factor in later.
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Hi there
Been thinking about ground strat for several months and was going to post but Pyro and Hitech said they weren't going to use vehicles and didn't like AI. Now since vehicles are included, I thought I'd throw up my 2 cents
TRAINS ROADS, RIVERS, BRIDGES, TOWNS
When you log on, you have to decide whether to command a battalion of 50 tanks, an army corps of engineers or a tanker squad (5 tanks). You can log on and start immediately at the front under someone else command.
The war starts with 10 battalions for each country. As commander of a battalion, you start at the train station in the rear. As long as no bridges are taken out, you can move your force as far into enemy country as posable. Once engaged, even if the player (command) gets dumped or logs off, the battalion stays where it is someone else can take over either as commander, or squad leader. If your tank gets blown up, you can transfer to next tank in line. When all 5 of your tanks are destroyed, your truly dead. You'll have to transfer to the next squad in the battalion.
As bridges are taken out the engineers move up to repair or build pontoon bridges. (train bridges are made of tougher stuff and would require a heavy bomber attack to take 'em out). Also train tunnels could be used to hid trains and prevent nme attack. Theres also gun carriages so these aren't easy targets at all. If the train is destroyed, the remaining tanks on board would have to debark at that point.
The parts of the map we have now with farmland could be highly detailed with a small village, church, business center small farms, barns and hay stacks to hid tanks.
If a battle should take place here, the buildings tanks etc that are destroyed, remain destroyed for the duration of the war.
Paratroopers become key players in securing crossroads, brides, small villages until the main force arrives.
Once villages, bridgeheads, airfields are secured, the battle line moves up to that point. resupply becomes an issue. This is where AI comes in as nobody is going to want to drive a truck or lead a column of trucks to the front. A commander can request a resupply at any time. Speaking of AI, once on a road you can hit the X key for auto the tanks trucks etc in your command stay on the road unless attacked they automatically go into defensive position.
Someone mentioned a few months ago about having a limited number of planes available at front line airfields. I like that idea. 20 planes assigned to each field near the front. Unlimited number at rear fields. The player gets extra points for flying replacement planes to front line fields. This would allow tank battles to take place without so much harassment from the air. Also, if you are part of the air war, there is a bulletin board in the tower with requests for air support from ground commanders and their locations.
The war is decided when the nme main city is surrounded by at least 2 battalions Articles are signed and we all go home to make babies. All the ground forces are reverted back to their starting points. The new game starts out as the phony war (spring and early summer of 1940) and doesn't get heavy until someone decides to move his battalion up and crosses the country border.
This concept could take 2hours to win the war if the commanders would cooperate with each other or could take 2 months depending.
=Bears=
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simple solution.... A lot more army bases!!!
they dont even have to be bases they can be factories or whatever you like! would make tank battles much more common (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
make each vehicle (fortification 15 miles apart or less and give vehicles the ability to capture ONLY I repeat ONLY vehicle only bases.
it makes sense and we dont have to make panzers that go 60mph that way (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
real life fronts were close like that if I remember right (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
make these new vehicle bases somthing different... like towns or somthing for variety this way vehicle capture towns with m16 personell carriers or trucks (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
i think its logical and makes sense (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Pretty obvious... create more army bases set apart by a travelling distance akin to 20 minutes.
Bet you $100 that after one week nobody is going to be driving the ground vehicles because it is not worth peoples time to spend an hour driving between depots and fields. But they would do it for 20 minutes travelling time.
Regards
Daren
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Beaz aka ==bz==
249 Squadron RAF "Gold Coast"
"With Fists and Heels"
Part of the Tangmere Wing
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Eh, I was thinking we don't need more bases. Like I said, just make the ones we have closer to the airfields.
For each airbase, it has an army base 'twin' only a few miles away. The airbase is heavily defended by AAA, but the army base isn't. Either take the airbase outright with the conventional attack we've had up till now, or take the easier army base and use the ground vehicles to aid in the attack.
Between the pairs of bases should be some permanent ground clutter for tanks to play in. This way you don't need to cover the entire gameworld in the stuff. That ought ot help keep the framerates up.
Oh, and that rumored self-propelled artillery gun and M-2 grunt carrier halftracks couldn't hurt.
Its going to be fun. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hanz.
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Hi All,
I like 10Bears ideas a lot. But I would have thought a rail system would be a nightmare to operate with trains colliding all over the place (But worth pursuing) Anything to help the artillery get to the action quicker is worth looking at but let's not forget It's a flight sim. Moving the bases closer together would (I think) spoil the aviation side. What about being able to program a start & end route into a tank etc and leave it to to make it's own way while you go off and fly a plane or something. The tank would have no AI and be a sitting target but it would help get rid of the wait. (The tank could be "Re joined" at any time).
Just my 2 cents worth.
TTFN
snafu
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I am a flight simmer at heart so I will probably go back to my bombers soon, but I do like trying the ground vehicles. I think true ground simmers might be a different breed than what we are used to seeing around here, and hopefully some of those will start showing up soon....the ones who understand that tanks don't do more than 25 mph or so....
When I fly bombers it can take me up to 45 minutes to get to where I want to be....that's 45 boring minutes of climbing...I look at tanks the same way. Long drive to get to the action, except I seem to have more action driving my tank/m16 than I do climbing my bomber.
I do like the ideas posted here and I'm not trying to disagree with the fact of the long drive, just shedding some light on my views of it that I use to try to keep me in the ground vehicles.
Fury
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First off let me get a great big WTG to HTC.
I don't think I've ever had so much fun online or off EVER! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Next I see a lot of talk about shorting distances, or speeding up tanks.a NO NO in my book. Trains I'd love but they'll get strafed also & be down. Roads which I'd love to see modeled with a major speed increase IF it's possible.
How about an alternative. Put more vehicle depots closer to a "Front line" say 5 miles back. Put the Airfields Behind these scattered in depth. This should put the air & land battles into a "no mans land" situation.
Make captureing or closeing a vehicle depot a bit tougher than it seems to be now. Or better yet, make it very difficult to bomb a vehicle depot, yet easier to take with tanks & M16's.
Not that I'm complaining cause I love it as is. It is however difficult to spend a hour (or more) to get to someplace then get picked off by a plane flying overhead.
Fact remains however that HiTech & Pyro have an excellent vision of what they want AH to be. I trust them to make it enjoyable for all just as fast as they can. Thats good enough for me.
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Maj Ghosth
XO 332nd Flying Mongrels
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10Bears good ideas but I think AH won't be going into this much detail. There is a game called WWII Online that is being developed in this much detail... I think HT and crew would prefer not competing with them.
Of course if HT does want to compete with them he can always hire a bunch of us on and we'll turn this game into the most fun ground, air, sea game there ever was (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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The first and only time i used a tank, after 45 mins travel I was destroyed by the enemy base Ack hitting my frontal arc. How is that possible? Do we have 88mm Ack modeled? And about the frustrating 45 mins travel, the solution is simple, just put some roads. Anyway the work done here with vehicles is simply GREAT.
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Outstanding Ideas Ghosth. (and I'm not just saying that cause you're my boss (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) I think that by making a map with defined front lines at the start of a TOD would be good. I would also like to see a good network of roads in each country but not too many between countries. This would make for some stratigic points of interests for each country to protect. In the future, you could also use the roads as supply lines for future strat. modifications (HiTech, Don't you love to have your dream of the perfect flight sim, be publicly disected and reassembled every fifteen minutes or so? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
The only problem I see with "speeding up" tanks is that they will become harder to hit, and that would not be very fair. I think one of the main reasons they pop well now is we have been flying planes for a while now and are getting used to them, the tanks are new. I'm sure we will find ways to juke and weave to live longer as time goes on. Also, it might be better to have at least the M-16 be availible on at the airfields as well as the tank sheds if the sheds get moved away from the fields.
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Greg 'wmutt' Cook
332nd Flying Mongrels
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Just My 2 cents,
How about air transport? It was done in WWII so why not fly them to the target?
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!!! Heater !!!
(http://www.geocities.com/heater_nl/_private/heater.jpg)
Shit Happens All The Time
"If you have any trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done."
[This message has been edited by Heater (edited 04-10-2000).]
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I think Time To Engagement (TTE) can be shortened by introducing faster vehicles like:
- that 8 wheeled German armoured recon car, either 20 mm or 50 mm armament, about 80 km/h
- Jeep or Kubelwagen, imagine speeding towards enemy airfield with 12.7 mm HMG peppering planes taking off.
- T-34/76 or M-24 Chaffee for a fast tank.
With armoured car TTE would be cut to about half while maintaining decent punch and armour to sustain several hits from heavy aircraft armament.
Yesterday I witnessed maybe the first attempt to use indirect fire in AH. Badger was on route to V50 while he asked someone to spot his rounds and radio him needed corrections! This is pure example how diverse things players can do with equipment they are given.
If the spotter would have had Kubelwagen he could have got faster to hill near V50 and from there radio corrections to Badger. And instead of PzKw IV badger might have been in Wespe or Hummel with much heavy hitting gun.
Mind boggles when you think possibilities... Things look very good indeed.
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jochen
Geschwaderkommodore
Jagdgeschwader 2 'Richthofen' (http://personal.inet.fi/cool/jan.nousiainen/JG2) (Warbirds)
jochen
JG 2 'Richthofen' (Aces High)
If you ever get across the sea to England,
Then maybe at the closing of the day
The bars will all be serving German lager
Which means we won the war - hip hip hooray!
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Originally posted by HaHa:
10Bears good ideas but I think AH won't be going into this much detail. There is a game called WWII Online that is being developed in this much detail... I think HT and crew would prefer not competing with them.
Of course if HT does want to compete with them he can always hire a bunch of us on and we'll turn this game into the most fun ground, air, sea game there ever was (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Well, Haha...I dont ask for entire armies rolling over paris (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)...A railroad network, with trains with acks (as historical) wich can load tanks and AAA vehicles, that also can fire when loaded (as historical), can be FUN!, fun and productive. It can both reduce time to tanks to reach the front, and add a new fun feature...
Also a road network that connect all fields is a realistic and fun feature...and also can reduce time between fields. And Who knows? maybe in the future there will be rivers, with bridges that can be destroyed, or conquered, or-....
It has nothing to do with WWIIol,these are fun features that can be implemented. We need to do something with the time spent between fields in tanks, and I dont find the idea of vwhicle spawn point near the battleline a good one, IMHO...
All in all we are talking of GREAT improvemens, and a HOLE new strategic view on the game. HTC has surpassed all my expectations (and by far). The sim right now is wonderful, and I know that it can only get better, whatever is done (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
WTG HTC!
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Four suggestions, most of which have been mentioned already.
1.) More tank bases scattered throughout. That would cut driving time.
2.) Faster tanks modeled. The types have already been mentioned.
3.) A road network.
4.) Introduction of new vehicle....jeep. Could carry either a recoiless rifle/anti-tank gun OR two LMGs for air defense. It would have virtually no armor, but could drive fast, in packs of 2-3 could knock out a tank, and hey, to make things interesting, throw in the ability to carry 2-3 troops so that it could capture bases if several of them got through.
Just my $.02,
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John Sponauer
Senior Editor, SimHQ.com
jsponauer@simhq.com
[This message has been edited by Spoons - SimHQ (edited 04-10-2000).]
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We need definitely faster vehicles and roads.
Should be quite easy to design roads, isnt it?
IMHO RL tanks travelled on roads/rails for about 90% of their TTE. Then they moved in open fields, for the battle, and only if they could.
Roads equal less TTE equal more vulnerability. Thats ok for me.
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I want all the equipment to be modeled as accurately as possible. No speed boosts for playability.
There were plenty of fast halftracks, tank destroyers, and recon vehicles in WW2, and some of them carried very heavy armament.
HTC should concentrate on modeling these machines.
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From this Thread (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum8/HTML/000415.html)
I doubt that frontline was at airfields..
Somewhere between those and enemies must have been a division of tanks
Sorry... I did not mean to sound, well like I did.
I am very interested in this as well, but under the current game it is very hard to define the "Front" or "Forward Line of Troops (FLOT)", because there really isn't one. Basically there are only "Borders".
To have a true FLOT I believe the game itself must define it. The FLOT would have to be based upon the borders that are dymanic in the current game.
Once you define the FLOT you could then have temporary vehicle bases placed along it. The game itself would have to do this. These bases would be dynamic in nature and use an algorithym within the game. This algorithym would place these temporary vehicle bases in respect to permanent bases in the area.
These temporary vehicle bases would be close to the FLOT, say 5 miles or less. They would be destroyable, meaning once they are destroyed nothing respawns there any more. There would not be much at these bases, maybe one structure. The base itself would not show up on NME maps, only allied maps.
Lets keep this going, maybe we can come up with a workable solution.
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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make tons of towns a network of them that are no more than 5 miles or so apart. (realistic for small little towns right?)
allow armored fighting vehicles to spawn from these points to keep action heavy and fighting non stop but allow troop transport trucks to only spawn from army bases so the troops have to travel further over road or get air dropped by goons to "secure" the town.
or make troops spawnable from the towns but up the troops required WAY way up to like 20 troops to take an airfield or depending on size and 10 troops or so for towns and army bases so we get more coordinated action with troop transport. but make the towns have no Ack. the players either defend the towns themselves or let them be over run (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) army and air bases ack is fine (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
give the vehicles ability to transport only 5 troops or less though so team coordination is required and airfields difficult to take (4 trucks or more full of troops to take an airfield and the trucks got no defense cept maybe a 30cal on the roof ) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
If you've played Falcon 4 you know what I'm angling for here. The ground war to dictate the front lines (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
This will also make ground vehicles have a tactical advantage and necessary roll to play which is a good thing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 04-10-2000).]
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Just be careful to dweebproof it, i.e. limit respawn rate.
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yeah that would be good to have a 5min limit between respawns at the same location if possible and make the spawn point killable of course (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
that and the vehicles need obstacles and little hills to hide behind (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
perhaps have these tiny towns show up only as little numbers with no name. and when they get captured they change from red to green or visa versa.
have a simple capture message like bishops have captured a town 264 or no msg at all (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
perhaps if we get mouse support that can click on the map and transport the player to that spawn point we would only need a little round dot to indicate the position of the town which would make a cluttered map less cluttered.
but if not your gonna need a filter to display or not display certain map icons with a keypress or mouse clickable button
aircraft could patrol along this front that is made up of a line of friendly held and enemy occupied towns finding targets for ground units to engage or jabo themselves (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 04-10-2000).]
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It wouldn't make tank engagement shorter, but might help them get to the battle, if ground vehicles didn't show up on the "sector counters". With the reduced icon range, and no sector counters to give them away, ground vehicles would have a measure of stealth that would make it easier to get into range of a field before the jabos appear.
popeye
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one thing is evident so far in Aces High development... the more avenues you give the players to simulate actual warfare and have a good time doing it the more the simulation takes on the nature of a true land/air dynamic war.
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I'll bet anyone here that the Jeep, or some variant, is the next modeled vehicle. Name how much you want to lose.
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Ripsnort(-rip1-)
=CO=II/JG2~Richthofen~
JG2 Communications Officer
Aces High Training Corps
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/ripsnort.jpg)
Turning Spitfires into Bud Lite cans since 1992
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 04-10-2000).]
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Hi Guys,
Mino's got the answer - we need a forward line of troops (FLOT). This was dicussed on another thread:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum8/HTML/000415.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum8/HTML/000415.html)
The FLOT idea not only can preserve the realistic vehicle speeds, but can also make the immersion factor much greater.
We have realistic vehicles and planes, but the way they are placed is still a bit silly. Have you ever seen a real war map that looks like the present AH map?
Put in some strategic boundary - a river, perhaps, or a line of forts, with high value targets in each side, and a FLOT will naturally form.
Make the battleground as realistic as the planes and vehicles and you'll have the solution.
=Hedgehog
=Screamin' Blue Messiahs http://sbm.virtualworld.net (http://sbm.virtualworld.net)
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Hi again,
Reading Mino's post again, I think forming a FLOT is a *lot* easier than you say, Mino.
I don't think you need dynamic bases or anything like that. Just form a FLOT with vehicle bases that are just a few miles from each other - again - along a river or a line of forts, or something like that. Or, just put the bases close by each other in a long string.
People who want to drive tanks will naturally launch from these bases, right? Who wants to drive an hour for nothing? This will lead to a high concentration of forces in this FLOT area - which will naturally lead to the forces establishing a FLOT. Put most airbases further back, with some forward airbases. For sure these airbases will be high value targets. Now, we're looking like a real battlefield, and the gameplay will be greatly improved because of it.
I think if you do this, the FLOT will naturally establish itself, and AH will move further away from an arcade style battlefield, to a more realistic one.
The planes and vehicles are realistic - make the battleground realistic and the problems will be greatly reduced.
=Hedgehog
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Coming to a Sim near you: Terrain editor. Edit it to your hearts content, hell, you can put 2 vehicle depots within firing range of one another. HTC said they would put user's editted terrain up on (Main?) if it meets playability criteria.
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From most of the ideas I have read will work very well with a FLOT that does not move.
In war the FLOT moves.
How will you define which little town or base is ours or theirs?
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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OK long range plans I have no idea whats in HT & Pyro's heads.
Short range, I just talked to HT in main.
THe gist of the conversion was that they are going to put in more spawn points.
(Following is my opinion of what he's talking about & may or may not be accurate.)
But it sounded like each existing vehicle depot would get scattered spawn points some distance out. (like 20 min driveing time)
This would have the effect of putting the action a LOT closer.
Excuse me if this is not exact or word for word. (Was busy getting shot at part of the time)
The point is, a fix is comeing.
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Maj Ghosth
XO 332nd Flying Mongrels