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General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Somerled on December 21, 2010, 08:51:03 AM

Title: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Somerled on December 21, 2010, 08:51:03 AM
Friend of mine had his condo recently robbed, and he's really mad and is talking about getting a gun to protect his house.

Note that he was not home when the robbery occurred.

He asked me what he should get for a gun. Originally he was talking about a desert eagle, but i talked him off _that_ ledge. I would think that's the last thing he wants for home defense. Note tho that neither he or I are gun owners, tho i was in the rifle team in college which is why he asked me.

I suggested a shotgun, for several reasons.

1: The cha-chink cocking sound is farking intimidating, and may scare a thief away so he does not need to shoot.
2: Scatter shot has a better chance for hitting if he has to aim and shoot in a hurry
3: I also told him to get bird, not buck shot. Not because of lethality issues, but because i would think they would be less likely to go through the walls into the condo next door to him and possibly hurt an innocent neighbor.

Thoughts on this?
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Ripsnort on December 21, 2010, 09:04:03 AM
So he wants a gun so that next time he's not home, the thieves can get a weapon when they break in?

Sometimes I just don't understand people.  The best defense is a good offense. Wire the condo for an alarm system, monitored if necessary. THEN buy the weapon for that 1% that thieves actually break in to occupied homes....

(And yes, a nice light 870 pump is usually a good home defense weapon, if one is not experienced with shooting pistols, this way you don't kill your neighbors with missed shots.)
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: fbWldcat on December 21, 2010, 09:07:01 AM
Shotgun sounds fine. Bird shot. Too far away? No problem, just a little spray, he is in pain, he leaves or crumples to the floor. Too close (attacking) he goes bye bye. And yes, if I was invading a house (I wouldn't) the oh-so familiar sound of a shotgun cocking would get me out in a pinch.

But if you are looking for a scare effect, there are rifles with pump action as well. For having just a really big gun, try a muzzleloader  :aok

My neighbor had a fully loaded glock in his truck, just in case (notice I said HAD) Someone stole the loaded thing last Halloween.
Glock is intimidating with that snapping sound it makes when the action closes.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: fbWldcat on December 21, 2010, 09:07:58 AM
In response to ripsnort:

Gun-safe  :aok
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: jimson on December 21, 2010, 09:09:06 AM
Good going talking him out of the Desert Eagle, a cool gun but not the best for self defense for a novice.

Shotgun isn't a bad choice although in close quarters the barrel could be grabbed and wrenched out of his hand.

If he's willing to get some training (which he should regardless) a 4 inch revolver in .357 or .38 plus p with a good frangible HP load is also a good choice.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Ripsnort on December 21, 2010, 09:11:03 AM
Shotgun sounds fine. Bird shot. Too far away? No problem, just a little spray, he is in pain, he leaves or crumples to the floor. Too close (attacking) he goes bye bye. And yes, if I was invading a house (I wouldn't) the oh-so familiar sound of a shotgun cocking would get me out in a pinch.

But if you are looking for a scare effect, there are rifles with pump action as well. For having just a really big gun, try a muzzleloader  :aok

My neighbor had a fully loaded glock in his truck, just in case (notice I said HAD) Someone stole the loaded thing last Halloween.Glock is intimidating with that snapping sound it makes when the action closes.

Hope this helps.


See, this here? This is comedy gold. Idiots like to buy guns, put them in cars, houses, with locks...thinking they are safe.

Here's a thought. You're (not the poster, you as in general idiots) supplying more stolen firearms to the black market which enable yet more bad guys to be heavily armed.

Protect the weapons please. Gun safe in the house, perhaps an alarm system. If you travel with a gun, take it OUT of the vehicle when you leave the vehicle unless you have your eyes on it  when you've left the vehicle.

And tell your friend Ripsnort said he's a dummy. :)
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Ripsnort on December 21, 2010, 09:11:47 AM
In response to ripsnort:

Gun-safe  :aok
Kinda tough to get those in a condo though...
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: katanaso on December 21, 2010, 09:13:19 AM
1: The cha-chink cocking sound is farking intimidating, and may scare a thief away so he does not need to shoot.
2: Scatter shot has a better chance for hitting if he has to aim and shoot in a hurry
3: I also told him to get bird, not buck shot. Not because of lethality issues, but because i would think they would be less likely to go through the walls into the condo next door to him and possibly hurt an innocent neighbor.

Thoughts on this?

My thoughts:

1.  Perhaps.  However, in the rush of adrenaline, would he remember to chamber a round?
2.  At the range he'd be shooting at an intruder, there wouldn't be much of a spread.  Lots of debates on this abound.
3.  Drywall penetration is a real concern, but I'd always go for lethality.  If I ever have to shoot an intruder in my home, I do not want him having a second chance at harming my wife or me because I only wounded him or her.

mir



Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: jimson on December 21, 2010, 09:20:01 AM
Protect the weapons please. Gun safe in the house, perhaps an alarm system. If you travel with a gun, take it OUT of the vehicle when you leave the vehicle unless you have your eyes on it  when you've left the vehicle.

This is a good point. I ended up supplying the criminal element with a lot of firearms when my collection was stolen several years ago. Most of mine were weapons criminals wouldn't make use of, WW2 era rifles and such. Still, I wish I had done more to keep them from falling in the wrong hands.

You have to strike a balance between security and quick access. If I need a gun I want it in my hands immediately.

Perhaps keep it out of the safe only when you are home?
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Somerled on December 21, 2010, 09:27:57 AM
Oh, and yes, I told him to get an alarm system instead of a gun, but he feels violated and unsafe. He insists on a gun, not a 'wimpy alarm'.

*shrug* He may come down and think normally after a few more days.

And yes, I think an alarm is a better idea than a gun, since most robberies are when no one is at home. Home invasions are rare.

Me, I don't even have a gun, tho i do keep my old SCA wooden sword under my bed in case anyone needs a beatdown. I also have very young kids, so the thought of an easily accessible gun makes my skin crawl.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Somerled on December 21, 2010, 09:29:28 AM
This is a good point. I ended up supplying the criminal element with a lot of firearms when my collection was stolen several years ago. Most of mine were weapons criminals wouldn't make use of, WW2 era rifles and such. Still, I wish I had done more to keep them from falling in the wrong hands.

You have to strike a balance between security and quick access. If I need a gun I want it in my hands immediately.

Perhaps keep it out of the safe only when you are home?

Yeah, and are you going to remember that every time? Or forget that its in the drawer one night and 'oops'.

Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Ripsnort on December 21, 2010, 09:29:42 AM
This is a good point. I ended up supplying the criminal element with a lot of firearms when my collection was stolen several years ago. Most of mine were weapons criminals wouldn't make use of, WW2 era rifles and such. Still, I wish I had done more to keep them from falling in the wrong hands.

You have to strike a balance between security and quick access. If I need a gun I want it in my hands immediately.Perhaps keep it out of the safe only when you are home?
That is a great point.  Personally (Since I've had kids in the house) I use one of these for my pistols, it's beside my bed and I've rehearsed access while laying down....3.2 seconds. :)

http://www.nationwidesafes.com/pistol-safes.html?campaign=Nationwide%20Safes&kw=bedside%20pistol%20safe&gclid=CKyIh-zT_aUCFQkPbAodkj4PmQ

We have a house alarm that is on when we're not there, as well as a dog that lives inside the house.

When I travel, the gun is on my hip, concealed (have permit)
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: IamSalem on December 21, 2010, 09:31:14 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVhSS_jSfTw
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Ripsnort on December 21, 2010, 09:35:04 AM
Oh, and yes, I told him to get an alarm system instead of a gun, but he feels violated and unsafe. He insists on a gun, not a 'wimpy alarm'.

*shrug* He may come down and think normally after a few more days.

And yes, I think an alarm is a better idea than a gun, since most robberies are when no one is at home. Home invasions are rare.

Me, I don't even have a gun, tho i do keep my old SCA wooden sword under my bed in case anyone needs a beatdown. I also have very young kids, so the thought of an easily accessible gun makes my skin crawl.

I don't have the picture readily available here at work, but I have a picture of my then- 4 year old and 6 year old cleaning my pistols and rifles, spread out on a table. The story is this: I took the "mystery" out of firearms with them at a young age. They were no longer curious after a few sessions of cleaning, handling the guns. The oldest took his hunter's education at age 11, and has been bird hunting with me a few times. The youngest has no interest. I techically could leave these out in a corner of the closet and they would not touch them because the mystery of firearms is all but forgotten due to alittle gun cleaning. :)
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Somerled on December 21, 2010, 09:39:47 AM
mine is currently 17 months and loves to open drawers, and i have another one on the way. Kinda too young for teaching them properly.

Me, I grew up in the woods of NH, and when I was 6 the first time someone handed me a rifle (unloaded) I pointed it at my mother. I could not sit down for a while after that, deservedly. But I never did it again.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Ripsnort on December 21, 2010, 09:50:05 AM
When he's old enough, he's going to find that SCA sword alot cooler than any gun, trust me!  :devil

My kids turned everything into a sword.  :x
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Shuffler on December 21, 2010, 10:06:34 AM
A nice mossy with 18 1/2" barrel and pistol grip would do nicely. Regardless of what he gets he will need to go somewhere and fire it to become accustomed to the gun. He must become comfortable with its operation. How to safely load and unload the weapon.


Forget scaring someone with the ratcheting of the gun. All it will usually do is let the perp know where your at.

If he pulls the gun he better be prepared to kill someone.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Golfer on December 21, 2010, 10:08:42 AM
I have an electronic access gun safe (Liberty Franklin) that's bolted to the floor of my apartment.  I took the better to beg for forgiveness (and install some new carpet and pad) than it is to ask for permission in this regard.  I'm gone for up to two weeks at a time and having tens of thousands of firearms unsecured at home isn't an option.  For the cost of less than all but a few of the individual guns kept inside themselves I have great piece of mind and quick access to heavier iron when needed.  When I'm home my carry gun (1911) and a flashlight go in the dresser drawer as I have no kids and the safe door is open with an 11-87 with buckshot equipped with an 18.25" barrel and flashlight.  Behind those I have a selection of rifles and shotguns as necessary with no real chance of ever using them given my surroundings but they're there with empty chambers and magazines in the wells.

I'm more concerned about a novice buying a gun where they artificially inflate the propensity of use in their minds rather than facing the reality that proper training and some experience is in fact required before you're ready to defend yourself with a weapon in this manner.  This is how accidental shootings happen and people die.  Let the robbery be the catalyst for them taking an interest in firearms.  That's fine and he certainly isn't the first and won't be the last.  Let that spark grow into something else where he becomes a responsible gun owner and user though.  Thinking he's going to be Rambo or something (wanting a Desert Eagle is a great example of that...) blowing the toejam out of anyone who gets on his lawn isn't going to do him or us responsible firearm owners any favors.

If he's truly concerned about protecting his goods a proper alarm with a security provider, timers on the lights, a safe for the valuables and investing some time into actually preventing entry into his home.  There are things you can do that don't hurt that aesthetics of your place but will make gaining entry such a pain in the bellybutton for a would be thief they'll keep right on going.

My concerns aren't a team of well equipped thieves but a smash and grab dude who is willing to put in a window and get 10 minutes with whatever they can carry.  Go ahead and take the computer, you won't get in.  Take the guitars I'll get new ones.  Take my money, I have more.  Take my TV, I need another one.  Take my guns?  That's unacceptable to me to put dangerous weapons on the street when I am responsible for that dickhead getting their hands on them by not securing them.  I have a very nice gun cabinet with beautiful walnut and glass front.  It's pretty but it doesn't provide security to a thief with access to a rock.  Inside is an old .22 rifle that in 5 years I was never able to find parts to.  So I took out the bolt, a few other parts and slugged the barrel.  It makes a great decoy and if someone wants to smash the glass (instead of, you know...opening the door since it isn't locked) then they've successfully managed to steal a stick.  Be my guest.  If that's going to absorb a few of the precious minutes you have in my place then all the better, you should get going since the police are on the way.

Oh well I hope your buddy actually thinks this through.  I'm all for new gun owners and people getting into shooting.  Just do it the right way and don't get anybody shot in the process.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Golfer on December 21, 2010, 10:13:36 AM
.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Somerled on December 21, 2010, 10:24:50 AM
Wait, what?

People have shot intruders in their own house, and have been succesfully sued by the intruder they shot? WTF  :mad: :mad:

Ok, not  gonna get political on this.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Golfer on December 21, 2010, 10:37:04 AM
(cough, New Jersey, cough.)

Also other states too.  I don't have the actual case information but there have been a few that had to do with what the statutes were and whether or not the intruder was actually a lawful threat.  Know the rules boys and girls.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Ripsnort on December 21, 2010, 10:57:51 AM
(cough, New Jersey, cough.)

Also other states too.  I don't have the actual case information but there have been a few that had to do with what the statutes were and whether or not the intruder was actually a lawful threat.  Know the rules boys and girls.
QFT.

Here in my state, I can use deadly force in my house, or attached garage. I cannot use deadly force in my detached (RV) garage or property. (Unless of course the perp has a weapon themselves.)
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Shamus on December 21, 2010, 11:03:33 AM
12 gauge coach double with external hammers, cant get any simpler for the low/untrained.

shamus 
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Reaper90 on December 21, 2010, 11:05:23 AM
(http://www.improvised-engineering.com/images/Mossberg%20Fullside.jpg)

This is virtually identical to my "go-to" weapon if I hear someone downstairs.

Mossberg 500 pump 12 guage
Knoxx recoil-compensating folding stock
Red-dot sight
10-round "riot-gun" magazine tube and shortened barrel (min legal size)

Very short (compared to my other long arms) and easy to maneuver in tight spaces

loaded with #2 goose loads and 00 Buck, every 3rd round is buckshot

no slugs as drywall penetration is a concern, if 10 rounds of what's it's loaded with doesn't do the job, the S&W 5906 is right above it on the shelf loaded with 16 rounds of hollowpoint Black Talons, and 3 spare magazines.

I like having all 4 bedrooms upstairs... if someone does come in without authorization and poses a threat, there's only one way upstairs, up a central stair-well... a very nice narrow field of fire. Thankfully South Carolina law will back me up on this, they WILL NOT leave the house alive.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: 1Boner on December 21, 2010, 11:09:22 AM
(http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2842/imagescar2ezok.jpg)

My house gun of choice.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Maverick on December 21, 2010, 11:23:25 AM
Couple things to consider here. First find out what the legal ramifications are for a resident using a firearm to defend in a burglary situation. Laws vary by state so find out what the situation is for where your friend lives.

Second point. You specified novice shooter. That means someone who has never or fired a gun very little before. That has ramifications as well. That means he is unfamiliar with how to use a firearm and more importantly when NOT to use a firearm. This can be a recipe for BAD things.

If there is a ccw option in his area have your friend take a ccw class even if he never ever intends to carry concealed. That class will give him some information about when to use deadly force and when not to use it. He will also get some information from some folks about types and styles of firearms as well as a comparison for defensive purposes.

I do not recommend any long gun for in the home defense. My recommendation for an experienced shooter is simple. Get a revolver, preferably medium frame with a 4" barrel. Forget snubbies, too tough to learn to shoot well and they also hurt to shoot them with serious ammo if they are light and small guns. That will discourage practice and that is a BAD thing. You want him to practice and become proficient. That means he has confidence in what he is doing instead of being in a panic mode.

Lots of so called experienced people say you hit easier with a shot gun. BS! I've seen several experienced folks miss at 7 yards shooting from the hip at a range when calm and collected not hyped on adrenaline in a fight. The shotgun is not a magic bullet and does not spread to cover the hallway from the muzzle. Typical spread for open choke riot gun is an inch every yard. You still have to aim, that means shouldering the gun and looking down the barrel, not blazing away manically. A long gun at short range (touching distance like 7') means the gun can be something to grapple with or pushed aside. Not good for the guy trying to shoot while spooked and in fear of his life. Shotguns, especially pumps or semi autos, are also more complicated to use than a revolver. That means practice again and lots of it.

He also needs to have a plan in case his place is hit while he is in it. That should be something simple like barricade himself in bedroom with his pistol and a phone. Use the phone and only use the gun if the intruder gets into the bedroom and your buddy is in fear for his life. Do not go "hunting" for the bad guy. You give up the position of security and preparedness  and opt instead for a surprise meeting engagement at close range. Another BAD thing.  
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: 68ZooM on December 21, 2010, 11:51:46 AM
 1911 45ACP  Self defense frangible made by MagSafe, great stopping power, and wont leave the body  :D  there 5 bucks a round but a cheap price to pay to protect your family, i have a great site for getting ammo for any gun with multiple dealers so you can price shop  :)

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/68zoom/frangable.jpg)

i have these in my 1911 and in my 380 auto
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: 2bighorn on December 21, 2010, 11:58:11 AM
a minute or two later after the threat has subsided kill him.  Kill him outright and swiftly.

Morally:
It's wrong to kill unless in self defense. If you disabled the intruder and you're in no imminent danger, you call 911. You don't go and murder.

Legally:
If something like that occur and involves anybody reading this forum, you may be charged with conspiracy to murder, or if you do it yourself, with 1st degree murder.


Don't talk about responsible gun ownership and give crapy advice like that.


Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: IamSalem on December 21, 2010, 11:58:39 AM
Wait, what?

People have shot intruders in their own house, and have been succesfully sued by the intruder they shot? WTF  :mad: :mad:

Ok, not  gonna get political on this.


That's why you always use the double tap rule.  :aok  Also, best thing to say when asked why you shot the intruder, "I felt my and my families lives were threatened."
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Golfer on December 21, 2010, 12:04:15 PM
.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Jayhawk on December 21, 2010, 12:16:18 PM
Yeah, give him a few days to see if he cools down.

I have to agree that a simple revolver is going to be the best option for a novice home defense gun.  However, I also have to agree that it sounds like he thinks buying a gun will make everything better.  Though it might provide a sense of security, hopefully he takes the time to realize it takes much more than just buying a gun (as others have specified).

No need to repeat some of that advice but I'll tell you what I have.  I carry either a Glock 19 or  Kahr PM40.  The Kahr is definitely not a beginners gun but a Glock isn't bad.  I'd still advise a revolver but Glocks are still simple to operate, disassemble, and offer a decent level of forgiveness in the cleaning and maintenance areas.  Their lack of external safety has it's ups and downs for beginning shooters, but I'm getting off topic.  I do have a concealed carry permit.  I shoot as often as finances allow, and I'm lucky enough to have a wide open place to go shooting.  If you have no other options a range is better than not shooting, but I have the freedom to draw, move, double-tab, rapid fire, move some more, reload, etc.  Something many ranges may not offer.  So my CCH training, my practice, and a lot reading is where I'm at, and honestly, I know there is a lot more training I would like to take. Maybe it would be best to sit down, price a gun, price training, price a safe, price ammo per month, range fees, and anything else you can think of.  That security system might look more inviting then.


As for Golfer and the kill thing.  I would just change everything to 'incapacitate'.  You're shooting to render that threat unable to harm you.  As long as you understand your laws, shoot to incapacitate as quickly as possible.  Put as many in center body mass until the threat is no longer a threat.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Golfer on December 21, 2010, 12:19:33 PM

As for Golfer and the kill thing.  I would just change everything to 'incapacitate'.  You're shooting to render that threat unable to harm you.  As long as you understand your laws, shoot to incapacitate as quickly as possible.  Put as many in center body mass until the threat is no longer a threat.

This.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: 2bighorn on December 21, 2010, 12:23:27 PM
 I've been in several situations where law enforcement during a string of home invasions, while people were home, advised the homeowners exactly of what I passed on.

You don't ask cops for legal advice, they're not legal experts.


You don't ever shoot to injure, you shoot to destroy.

In self defense you shoot to protect yourself from being harmed.


That isn't bad advice.

Legally (and morally), it is, even though sometimes killing someone during self defense is unavoidable (but we have legal provisions for such cases - fortunately).



I never said go kill the guy who isn't a threat to you, far from it.

Correct, I've misread it.


Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: 68ZooM on December 21, 2010, 12:25:07 PM
when your taught to shoot, it's center mass, double tap, empty clip, now at nightime you don't have the time to pick a shot that won't kill them, you center mass, shoot to kill, one thing i was taught up front is that you don't pull your firearm unless you plan on using deadly force, it's not a toy to scare them with, ya shoot to kill
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Jayhawk on December 21, 2010, 12:32:12 PM
Jayhawk, when your taught to shoot, it's center mass, double tap, empty clip, now at nightime you don't have the time to pick a shot that won't kill them, you center mass, shoot to kill, one thing i was taught up front is that you don't pull your firearm unless you plan on using deadly force, it's not a toy to scare them with, ya shoot to kill

I think we're arguing semantics here.  I'm not advocating precise shot placement to only injure the person, I'm arguing that once that person is no longer a threat, there is no need to continue firing.  So if you put a couple rounds into the person and they are on the ground no longer threatening you, you stop shooting, regardless if they are alive or not.  But by all means, like I said in my last sentence, shoot until the threat is gone.  Though incapacitate often equals kill, that's not always the case.  Whether you look at it from a moral standpoint, or more prudent, a legal standpoint; I don't want to establish the precedent that I intend to kill in a self-defense situation.

So I think we're pretty much on the same page, just using different language to describe it.

*EDIT*  I agree with your second point, I draw with the willingness to kill this person, because that might be what happen.  I'm not drawing with the intent to kill, but the willingness to.  Again, semantics, but that little difference could mean a world of difference if your fate is in the hands of 12 other people.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Masherbrum on December 21, 2010, 12:39:54 PM
There is a THICK LINE between self-defense and Mayhem.  Only moron would take some of the advice being given out in this thread.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Jayhawk on December 21, 2010, 12:50:39 PM
There is a THICK LINE between self-defense and Mayhem.  Only moron would take some of the advice being given out in this thread.

Thinner than you'd think.  I don't have the book but one case comes to mind in one of Massad Ayoob's books.  I can't remember the specifics of the case but a man used his car defense gun to shoot someone.  Prosecutors argued that because the man was carrying multiple magazines for his gun, he was looking for trouble.  Sometimes one more shot can separate self-defense from murder, at least in the eyes of a jury.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Shuffler on December 21, 2010, 01:16:27 PM
Morally:
It's wrong to kill unless in self defense. If you disabled the intruder and you're in no imminent danger, you call 911. You don't go and murder.

That is why you always shoot to kill, never to wound. If the person is wounded and is absolutely no threat, then call 911. Be careful though as anyone you do not know that is in your house without permission is a threat unless they are completely unconcious.

If you have any qualms shooting someone then do not get a gun for protection. Even shooting a bad person can be life changing. If you pull a gun and are not ready to use it, it may be used on you.


On the other hand.... if you get sued and the perp wins... then you can take that into consideration if it ever happens again.


Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: 2bighorn on December 21, 2010, 01:37:54 PM
That is why you always shoot to kill, never to wound. If the person is wounded and is absolutely no threat, then call 911.

I think Jayhawk explained it better than I did.

Be careful though as anyone you do not know that is in your house without permission is a threat unless they are completely unconcious.

So you suggest I go and knock a neighbors kid I didn't recognize at first, unconscious?

If you have any qualms shooting someone then do not get a gun for protection.

Everybody should have qualms about shooting someone, whether you're actually do it or not.

On the other hand....

On the other hand, you guys are all such experts when it comes to killing, I'll just shut up  :aok
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: fbWldcat on December 21, 2010, 01:46:36 PM
I'll admit that NOT LOCKING the car was a mistake on his part...
A gun WOULD be a nice addition to ADT, not for sole defense.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Shuffler on December 21, 2010, 01:51:24 PM
I think Jayhawk explained it better than I did.

So you suggest I go and knock a neighbors kid I didn't recognize at first, unconscious?

Everybody should have qualms about shooting someone, whether you're actually do it or not.

On the other hand, you guys are all such experts when it comes to killing, I'll just shut up  :aok


Sounds more like you run a great risk of being a victim. Good luck with that.

If your neighbors son is a crook and theif.......
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Belial on December 21, 2010, 02:28:49 PM
Just get a 22 revolver...easy to load...easy to tell if its really empty....easy to hit with as they are more accurate than a 45.


oh and they are 120$
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: LLogann on December 21, 2010, 03:03:01 PM
The important question is what does his place look like?  Railroad style with long hallways, or square box type of house?  A shotgun only benefits from long, non-intersecting types of layouts where you have cover at your 6.......

If he's a novice, Desert Eagle is most definitely a bad idea.....  Caliber & kick would greatly inhibit his ability to hit the chest.  

A shotgun may get him killed instead of protecting him by impeding his movements, even though it gives him better coverage, he'll also wind up destroying several possessions per shot.  He should get a shotgun bird call or something if he needs the sound........

... I would suggest a .380 automatic, small enough to provide the ability of close quarters hand to hand (heaven forbid) yet still a 9mm round.  A Walter PPKs would be great but at this point, it's more of a collector gun.  

Not to sound like a downer, but maybe a gun is just wrong in the first place....  As many law enforcement agents would agree, a killshot is the only form of protection, of course with a direct threat to the life of you, or family.  Shoot a burglar in the leg and the next thing you know he is "stealing" your house completely.  

Maybe he should just have a tazer?

Friend of mine had his condo recently robbed, and he's really mad and is talking about getting a gun to protect his house.

Note that he was not home when the robbery occurred.

He asked me what he should get for a gun. Originally he was talking about a desert eagle, but i talked him off _that_ ledge. I would think that's the last thing he wants for home defense. Note tho that neither he or I are gun owners, tho i was in the rifle team in college which is why he asked me.

I suggested a shotgun, for several reasons.

1: The cha-chink cocking sound is farking intimidating, and may scare a thief away so he does not need to shoot.
2: Scatter shot has a better chance for hitting if he has to aim and shoot in a hurry
3: I also told him to get bird, not buck shot. Not because of lethality issues, but because i would think they would be less likely to go through the walls into the condo next door to him and possibly hurt an innocent neighbor.

Thoughts on this?

Belial
.22 doesn't have any stopping power...... go with a short 9, .380 baby!!!!   :aok
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: LLogann on December 21, 2010, 03:13:10 PM
My Brother, you are far from sane here.......  If you put somebody down, but not kill them, there is a high likelyhood that they will be able to turn around and sue you.  If you are victim of a home invasion, and your life is threatened, shoot to kill, always...  And make your shots count....  You put 5 rounds into somebody and the cop will ask you why 5. 

As for Golfer and the kill thing.  I would just change everything to 'incapacitate'.  You're shooting to render that threat unable to harm you.  As long as you understand your laws, shoot to incapacitate as quickly as possible.  Put as many in center body mass until the threat is no longer a threat.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Yeager on December 21, 2010, 03:14:55 PM
.380 Winchester silvertips have a great street record for one shot stops.  Something like 85%, which is damned fine for such a light bullet wielded in weapons with such compact frames.

http://www.winchester.com/Products/handgun-ammunition/super-x/silvertip-hollow-point/Pages/default.aspx
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Masherbrum on December 21, 2010, 03:29:28 PM
It's a good thing LLogan knows exactly what I was talking about.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: jimson on December 21, 2010, 03:39:50 PM
It is a mistake to say "shoot to kill," It should be "shoot to stop" and that means center body mass which may well result in death, but semantics are important.

You don't want some sleazy lawyer getting a hold of statements you made that suggest your intention was "to kill."

As far as handguns for a novice, you can't beat the simplicity of a revolver in at least .38 caliber.

As far as level of gun security, again, one has to balance accessibility with security, there is no one size fits all solution.

In any case, a new gun owner should seek training to learn how to handle a firearm and also to learn the local laws involving the use of such.

Many things come into play.

If you reload and use those rounds for self defense instead of factory ammo, that sleazy lawyer may make the claim that you are negligent because you intentionally made your ammo especially destructive.

Becoming a gun owner is a serious decision that deserves a high level of commitment to know what the hell you are doing.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: LLogann on December 21, 2010, 03:55:21 PM
I want to think we agree, but something tells me you're making fun of my thoughts......   :D

It's a good thing LLogan knows exactly what I was talking about.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Widewing on December 21, 2010, 04:00:11 PM
My favorite home defense weapon, despite owning a Mossberg 590, is my Rossi SRS in .357 Magnum. It's a direct clone of the Winchester 1892 Trapper.
Eight rounds (101 grain Remington frangible ammo) in the magazine. Lightning fast action, quick pointing and exceptionally lethal.

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5208/5280844751_d9486bdd28_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Becinhu on December 21, 2010, 04:12:08 PM
Nothing beats a nice short-barreled shotgun for home defense.  In a hallway you could still miss with a pistol.  With a 20 gauge loaded with 8 shot.....you couldn't miss if you tried.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Spikes on December 21, 2010, 04:17:12 PM
Get a shotgun, it'll be too heavy they won't even be able to pick it up. :)
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: katanaso on December 21, 2010, 04:19:21 PM
Nothing beats a nice short-barreled shotgun for home defense.  In a hallway you could still miss with a pistol.  With a 20 gauge loaded with 8 shot.....you couldn't miss if you tried.

Sure you could, if you don't know how to shoot or panic in the moment.

No matter what the person buys, he needs to practice and get comfortable with it.

Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Becinhu on December 21, 2010, 04:27:30 PM
Sure you could, if you don't know how to shoot or panic in the moment.

No matter what the person buys, he needs to practice and get comfortable with it.


With knowing how to shoot being implied... :huh
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: katanaso on December 21, 2010, 04:30:04 PM
With knowing how to shoot being implied... :huh

But remember how this thread started -- even the title. :)

Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Shuffler on December 21, 2010, 04:48:17 PM
My favorite home defense weapon, despite owning a Mossberg 590, is my Rossi SRS in .357 Magnum. It's a direct clone of the Winchester 1892 Trapper.
Eight rounds (101 grain Remington frangible ammo) in the magazine. Lightning fast action, quick pointing and exceptionally lethal.

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5208/5280844751_d9486bdd28_b.jpg)

Crap... that's beautiful.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Shuffler on December 21, 2010, 04:49:18 PM
Sure you could, if you don't know how to shoot or panic in the moment.

No matter what the person buys, he needs to practice and get comfortable with it.



Words of wisdom
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Belial on December 21, 2010, 05:15:41 PM
.22 will kill someone just as easy as a 45 lllogggan
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Shamus on December 21, 2010, 05:25:40 PM
.22 will kill someone just as easy as a 45 lllogggan

......but it wont stop the threat as quickly with a torso hit.

shamus
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Widewing on December 21, 2010, 05:42:53 PM
.22 will kill someone just as easy as a 45 lllogggan

Ahh.... No. A typical .45 ACP round delivers around 5 times the energy of a common 40 grain .22 Long Rifle round.

Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: skorpion on December 21, 2010, 06:12:37 PM
If i had to choose a home defence weapon it would be a PTRS-41. (no i didnt get it from one of those call of duty games, or as i say call of nerds) Its a large caliber-gas operated anti tank weapon. it might blow a limb or two off but it will teach him to never come back!
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i336/igotafro/PTRS-41.png)
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Babalonian on December 21, 2010, 06:40:11 PM
If i had to choose a home defence weapon it would be a PTRS-41. (no i didnt get it from one of those call of duty games, or as i say call of nerds) Its a large caliber-gas operated anti tank weapon. it might blow a limb or two off but it will teach him to never come back!
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i336/igotafro/PTRS-41.png)

Yet you chose to post a pic of the call of noobs bipodless scoped varient, most uncommon of the PTRS during WWII.   ;)

(http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/985/ptrs2qo.jpg)
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: ROX on December 21, 2010, 07:55:30 PM
A robbery is a crime done person-on-person with a weapon.

What you described is a burglary.

To remember the difference just remember the scene in "Pulp Fiction" where the Brit gets up in a crowded eatery...pulls and points his weapon and shouts "THIS is a ROBBERY".

If he fears another burglary THE BEST thing to do is call around for estimates on a home security system.  The second a window gets broken, a door opens or a sliding glass door is comprimised the signal goes directly to the local PD or sherriff's office and they dispatch an officer or officers ASAP.  He NEEDS this kind of system.

If he fears a home invasion or robbery (as in someone has broken into his home and is brandishing a weapon) the best thing to do is have a handgun or shotgun at a "fallback position"...someplace he can quickly run to and lock the door while he's getting his weapon.  The BEST thing in addition to this is having a large dog...German Shepherds are fantastic for this.  The second the glass in the door breaks or even someone lurking around the house the ears go up, the dander gets up, rows of sparp scary teeth are open and the bark-alert of a big dog makes even the boldest of robbers turn and run for easier pickings.  All for the price of some water, dogfood, the occasional rawhide treat, and some well deserved ear and belly rubs (actually they are family so there's a ton of respect and love there but that's another thread).

That dog will give his/her life to bite the 'nads off anyone entering the house without consent of the master.  That gives you plenty of time to get to the fallback position to get armed.

"Beware of Dog" signs are a good deterrent even if you don't have a dog--but get one anyway.  We have two shepherds and the sight of 4 ears and rows of frightening teeth barking "somebody's here" through the small door window would be a great deterrent--and when you have deterrants bad guys leave and look for easier pickings.

I have a 45 cal semi at my fallback position.  If they get over the fence, get by 2 adult GS dogs and still are in my house--they have earned the right to have me aircondition them with .45.  Yeah, the next trip is to Hope Depot to get the paint and patch for the holes in the wall and bloodstains on the floor after the law enforcement reports are complete.

Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Jayhawk on December 21, 2010, 08:06:16 PM
.22 will kill someone just as easy as a 45 lllogggan

Define easy

If i had to choose a home defence weapon it would be a PTRS-41. (no i didnt get it from one of those call of duty games, or as i say call of nerds) Its a large caliber-gas operated anti tank weapon. it might blow a limb or two off but it will teach him to never come back!
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i336/igotafro/PTRS-41.png)

I Hope You Are Joking (Sorry Phone Is Freaking out On The Caps)

A robbery is a crime done person-on-person with a weapon.

What you described is a burglary.

To remember the difference just remember the scene in "Pulp Fiction" where the Brit gets up in a crowded eatery...pulls and points his weapon and shouts "THIS is a ROBBERY".

If he fears another burglary THE BEST thing to do is call around for estimates on a home security system.  The second a window gets broken, a door opens or a sliding glass door is comprimised the signal goes directly to the local PD or sherriff's office and they dispatch an officer or officers ASAP.  He NEEDS this kind of system.

If he fears a home invasion or robbery (as in someone has broken into his home and is brandishing a weapon) the best thing to do is have a handgun or shotgun at a "fallback position"...someplace he can quickly run to and lock the door while he's getting his weapon.  The BEST thing in addition to this is having a large dog...German Shepherds are fantastic for this.  The second the glass in the door breaks or even someone lurking around the house the ears go up, the dander gets up, rows of sparp scary teeth are open and the bark-alert of a big dog makes even the boldest of robbers turn and run for easier pickings.  All for the price of some water, dogfood, the occasional rawhide treat, and some well deserved ear and belly rubs (actually they are family so there's a ton of respect and love there but that's another thread).

That dog will give his/her life to bite the 'nads off anyone entering the house without consent of the master.  That gives you plenty of time to get to the fallback position to get armed.

"Beware of Dog" signs are a good deterrent even if you don't have a dog--but get one anyway.  We have two shepherds and the sight of 4 ears and rows of frightening teeth barking "somebody's here" through the small door window would be a great deterrent--and when you have deterrants bad guys leave and look for easier pickings.

I have a 45 cal semi at my fallback position.  If they get over the fence, get by 2 adult GS dogs and still are in my house--they have earned the right to have me aircondition them with .45.  Yeah, the next trip is to Hope Depot to get the paint and patch for the holes in the wall and bloodstains on the floor after the law enforcement reports are complete.



A Dog is an excellent Defense Or At Least Alert System, Great Point
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: eagl on December 21, 2010, 08:24:24 PM
Morally:
It's wrong to kill unless in self defense. If you disabled the intruder and you're in no imminent danger, you call 911. You don't go and murder.

Legally:
If something like that occur and involves anybody reading this forum, you may be charged with conspiracy to murder, or if you do it yourself, with 1st degree murder.

Don't talk about responsible gun ownership and give crapy advice like that.


Nonsense, pure hypocritical bleeding heart nonsense.

If I have the opportunity to kill someone who has illegally entered my house, I'm going to take the opportunity whether or not I have had the time to question his motives.  I'll shoot first and shoot to kill, rather than interview the intruder to determine whether his intent is theft, mayhem, rape, or murder.  I simply don't need to know his exact intent before I make every attempt to end his life.  Not only do I not care (and under TX state law it doesn't matter), I don't feel the need to place my life and the life of my family at risk in order to protect an intruder who may or may not at any time decide to add a violent crime to the one he has already committed by his mere presence in my house.

If I merely wound an intruder/attacker in my own home, I have committed an error and have placed me and my family further at risk.  Why would I ever consider simply wounding an intruder to be a satisfactory response when nothing good can come from it?

That said, I will assess the situation before pulling the trigger to determine if he (or she) has made a simple mistake by entering my house.  For example, a neighbor or someone calling out (hey anyone home, you have a huge water leak in your yard, hello!) probably won't get shot.  But I sure as heck will not give any intruder even the slightest opportunity to harm me or my family, and that means their last chance to not get shot passed them by when they chose to enter the house.  The same goes for someone on my property who continues to advance towards my family or attempt to enter the house without responding properly after being challenged.

Sorry, an intruder's life is worth nothing to me when compared to the lives of me and my family.  An intruder has all the opportunity in the world to decide to not enter my house in the first place and I will make every attempt to ensure they don't have the opportunity to commit ANOTHER crime after they are already in my house.  Any other response is simply suicidal insanity.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: eagl on December 21, 2010, 08:29:43 PM
.22 will kill someone just as easy as a 45 lllogggan

Nonsense.

A .22 round in a critical area will kill someone for sure, but a more effective round not only will stop someone quicker, but also may have a completely different definition of "critical area".  As just one example, if you hit a major bone with a .22 you may have simply annoyed the target.  Hit a major bone with a .45 and the target may be completely incapacitated, and blood vessels running alongside the impacted bone are likely to suffer damage from the shattering bone, leading to a massive bleeding and rapid incapacitation.

.22s can be lethal, yup.  But they're a terrible defensive weapon except MAYBE in situations where extreme compactness of the gun is critical for concealed carry purposes.  But a tiny .25 or .30 will be somewhat more effective and not much harder to conceal.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Belial on December 21, 2010, 09:08:29 PM
Yea i guess if 50cent can get shot 9 times by a 22 they must suck :neener:


but seriously I'll take a 22 over a 45 anyday because I've shot a 45 quite a few times and they arent nearly as accurate
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Jayhawk on December 21, 2010, 09:14:15 PM
Yea i guess if 50cent can get shot 9 times by a 22 they must suck :neener:


but seriously I'll take a 22 over a 45 anyday because I've shot a 45 quite a few times and they arent nearly as accurate

lol that's totally your call.  Accuracy is such relevant term though.  The .45 takes more training to become proficient in, with its higher recoil and often heaver weight, a lot of people have more trouble shooting it accurately.  A self defense shooting doesn't require you to cut a playing card at 100 yards,  a self defense shooting is usually within 7 yards (often less) and if you can't hit a person at that distance with a .45, You probably shouldn't own a gun.

It sure sounds like you just can't handle that .45 so you're blaming the entire caliber.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Tupac on December 21, 2010, 09:23:49 PM
If i had to choose a home defence weapon it would be a PTRS-41. (no i didnt get it from one of those call of duty games, or as i say call of nerds) Its a large caliber-gas operated anti tank weapon. it might blow a limb or two off but it will teach him to never come back!
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i336/igotafro/PTRS-41.png)

I'd love to try and watch someone take that 100 pound beast and try and maneuver it in a house.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Belial on December 21, 2010, 09:25:22 PM
Nah Ive shot alot of larger pistols we own a .357 magnum revolver...kicks like a mule but it's pretty accurate.


The thing with 45 is it isn't accurate at least from what I've seen...I was shooting a prison guards and I wasn't impressed at all.


Maybe because our .357 has about a 6inch barrel and the 45 is like 2 inches.


The thing literally couldn't hold a 24" spread at 25 feet.
And it wasn't just me shooting it the owner of it couldn't even do any better and he was in a war and a guard.
I expect a gun to hit exactly where I aim it and I know my 22 does :D
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Tupac on December 21, 2010, 09:29:21 PM
 If I was moving out to the ghetto tomorrow, this would be my home defense weapon.

http://www.taurususa.com/video-theJudge.cfm
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Belial on December 21, 2010, 09:35:59 PM
If I was moving out to the ghetto tomorrow, this would be my home defense weapon.

http://www.taurususa.com/video-theJudge.cfm



WINS^
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: katanaso on December 21, 2010, 09:37:18 PM
Nah Ive shot alot of larger pistols we own a .357 magnum revolver...kicks like a mule but it's pretty accurate.


The thing with 45 is it isn't accurate at least from what I've seen...I was shooting a prison guards and I wasn't impressed at all.


Maybe because our .357 has about a 6inch barrel and the 45 is like 2 inches.


The thing literally couldn't hold a 24" spread at 25 feet.
And it wasn't just me shooting it the owner of it couldn't even do any better and he was in a war and a guard.
I expect a gun to hit exactly where I aim it and I know my 22 does :D

A .45 with a 2 inch barrel?

I can tell you with 100% confidence that a decently made .45 is very accurate at 25 feet if you know how to shoot.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Tupac on December 21, 2010, 09:39:12 PM


WINS^

I was a little suprised noone had posted it yet.

One of the coolest pistols ever IMO
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Serenity on December 21, 2010, 09:54:45 PM
Yea i guess if 50cent can get shot 9 times by a 22 they must suck :neener:


but seriously I'll take a 22 over a 45 anyday because I've shot a 45 quite a few times and they arent nearly as accurate

Really? I've spent time with .40 cal and .45 cal, and honestly, I can put a perfect grouping at range with the .40 and .45, but cannot hit jack with the .22. I've actually had a hard time even hitting the target with my buddy's .22s, but as soon as I picked up his Kimber .45 I was knocking 'em out like it was an action movie.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: skorpion on December 21, 2010, 10:03:49 PM
Ok if it isnt a PTRS-41 its this sexy beast
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i336/igotafro/M4A1.jpg)
Sleek, accurate and deadly....
but seriously try a .45 or a 12 Ga. shotgun
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: jay on December 22, 2010, 12:50:09 AM
rig your house to trap the intruder inside until police (or u with firearm) get there
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Jayhawk on December 22, 2010, 01:14:28 AM
rig your house to trap the intruder inside until police (or u with firearm) get there

Do not do this!
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Vulcan on December 22, 2010, 05:24:27 AM
If I lived in the USA nothing short of this would do (going by what you guys tell me):

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/US_M18a1_claymore_mine.jpg)


 :devil
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Masherbrum on December 22, 2010, 07:37:19 AM
Eagl.  Mayhem is the act of emptying a magazine into a perp when the M.E determines the first round of 12-17 killed him.  Llogan got what said. 
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: mechanic on December 22, 2010, 09:08:32 AM
(http://www.collider.com/uploads/imageGallery/Home_Alone_Family_Fun/home_alone_movie_image.jpg)
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Delirium on December 22, 2010, 09:27:16 AM
I am glad this discussion came up, I live in the state of the Petit family (well, at least the good doctor is still alive). I would like to get a gun but I am hesitant in a house with 2 kids, not to mention I am concerned an intruder could obtain the weapon.

Has there been ANY progress on the 'smart guns' (either biometric or even a simple RF tag device) being made available for the home market? If so, how reliable are they?
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: TOMCAT21 on December 22, 2010, 09:30:31 AM
I have a Colt Government Agent in .45 ACP for home defense . it is basically a compact 1911 loaded with jacketed hollow points. :devil
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Babalonian on December 22, 2010, 11:42:37 AM
Yea i guess if 50cent can get shot 9 times by a 22 they must suck :neener:


but seriously I'll take a 22 over a 45 anyday because I've shot a 45 quite a few times and they arent nearly as accurate

With exception to recoil factors in a rapid fire situation (spray and pray), I find your assesment extremely false.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Babalonian on December 22, 2010, 11:50:34 AM
Nah Ive shot alot of larger pistols we own a .357 magnum revolver...kicks like a mule but it's pretty accurate.


The thing with 45 is it isn't accurate at least from what I've seen...I was shooting a prison guards and I wasn't impressed at all.


Maybe because our .357 has about a 6inch barrel and the 45 is like 2 inches.


The thing literally couldn't hold a 24" spread at 25 feet.
And it wasn't just me shooting it the owner of it couldn't even do any better and he was in a war and a guard.
I expect a gun to hit exactly where I aim it and I know my 22 does :D

Most .357s are quite inacurate for most shooters.  To properly control the forces of the magnum round the gun needs to be usually heavy and have a long barrel - a heavier and larger handgun is usually harder to control with one hand than a lighter and more compact one.  Short barrels are less wear and tear on the gun, but reduce accuracy greatly.

A two-inch barrel for a .45 is the equivalent of a sawed off shotgun (it's likely a handgun designed to be CCed for personal protection), anything you aim at beyond 25-feet you'll probabley miss - anything "attacker-sized" you aim at within that distance, you'll likely one-shot.

Most .22s are very accurate due to a mix of the rounds velocity to mass ratio and the length of the various gun barrels.  IE: a fair comparison to your 2" .45 would be a 1" barrel on a .22... a combination so inaccurate and inconsistent (not to mention too short for the .22 to reached its prized high-velocity) with such a small and light round that you're actually better off using a sawed-off shotgun.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Twizzty on December 22, 2010, 12:11:19 PM
I didn't go through the entire thread so forgive me if this was mentioned already. Take a look here:

http://www.taurususa.com/video-theJudge.cfm (http://www.taurususa.com/video-theJudge.cfm)

A friend of mine just bought this for home/car defence and it works very well.

Good Luck
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Babalonian on December 22, 2010, 12:11:34 PM
I am glad this discussion came up, I live in the state of the Petit family (well, at least the good doctor is still alive). I would like to get a gun but I am hesitant in a house with 2 kids, not to mention I am concerned an intruder could obtain the weapon.

Has there been ANY progress on the 'smart guns' (either biometric or even a simple RF tag device) being made available for the home market? If so, how reliable are they?

Smartguns are progressing but nothing I'd write home about yet....  now trigger-locks and the many good and inovative varieties that have come out in the past decade is another story!  Any good shop around would likely love to take all the time needed to demonstrate to you all your options for trigger locks, especialy taking into acount ones that are child-proof.  It's not 100% - a thief could steal the gun, take it home and tool the device off - but by then he'd be long gone from where you or your family is and the police will most likely of been informed.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Babalonian on December 22, 2010, 12:19:23 PM
I didn't go through the entire thread so forgive me if this was mentioned already. Take a look here:

http://www.taurususa.com/video-theJudge.cfm (http://www.taurususa.com/video-theJudge.cfm)

A friend of mine just bought this for home/car defence and it works very well.

Good Luck

That's actually pretty genius for personal defence, a legal mini sawed-off hand-held shotgun.  Will definetley stop flat any attacker within ~25 feet without going through that cafeteria wall 50+ feet behind them.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Jayhawk on December 22, 2010, 12:26:52 PM
I am glad this discussion came up, I live in the state of the Petit family (well, at least the good doctor is still alive). I would like to get a gun but I am hesitant in a house with 2 kids, not to mention I am concerned an intruder could obtain the weapon.

Has there been ANY progress on the 'smart guns' (either biometric or even a simple RF tag device) being made available for the home market? If so, how reliable are they?

I have no experience with these, but I've heard of Magna-trigger before.  You would have to wear a ring (that I believe is magnetic) and when you grip the gun, the ring turns off the extra safety.  So, someone without the ring on, would be unable to fire the weapon.  However,  I think they are only available on certain firearms, not to mention having to wear the ring.  

There are many fingerprint gun safes available though.  This would allow you to have the firearm easily and quickly accessible to you or your wife, but not anyone else.  As for keeping the gun out of any attacker's hands, I'd say it just takes training.  The NRA offers multiple classes about self-defense handgun, and home defense with a firearm.  A firearm is not the end all solution, but can be a great tool if you train properly.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Somerled on December 24, 2010, 02:27:24 PM
Well, spoke with my friend today and he's giving up on the gun idea, he said he's going to invest in pepper spray and a house alarm.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Serenity on December 24, 2010, 03:09:06 PM
Well, spoke with my friend today and he's giving up on the gun idea, he said he's going to invest in pepper spray and a house alarm.

Maybe talk to him about getting interested in firearms in a sane way? Shooting can be great fun and very therapeutic, and if he can get familiar with the weapons, a concealed carry permit and a nice hand gun is both a good source of protection for yourself and family (Not only in the house, I know the Castle law here extends to cars, and I  have a friend whose father has had to brandish a gun to prevent a road-rage incident from turning deadly) and just a nice little tool to have around.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: TUK on December 24, 2010, 03:15:17 PM
Out of all of my wepons I think that a shotgun with a pistol grip loaded with buckshot should do the trick.  Put a flashlight on it as well..  :salute
(http://www.gunstar.co.uk/images/Large/A2750.jpg)

This would mangle someone pretty good, also scaring the crap out of everything else.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: 68Hawk on December 24, 2010, 03:27:52 PM
I haven't had time to go through this whole thread, and this may very well have said before.  If that's the case let me, as a professional firearms instructor, echo the others' good comments:

The best single firearm for home defense is a handgun that the user is comfortable with.  You only need one had minimum to operate it, leaving one hand to control your kids or other people under your protection, operate doors and light switches, or to accomplish any other task that might need to be done.  You also have much more dexterity with a smaller weapon, and don't have as many problems around corners and in confined spaces. 

A handgun should be selected for ergonomics and comfort before anything else.  Don't ignore important aspects like caliber or function, but it should first and foremost be comfortable in the shooters hand.  They will shoot better, and will shoot more when they enjoy shooting it.  It's like a shoe.  Some will fit and some won't.  Don't get shoes that don't fit.  Then think about caliber.  9mm is probably the best choice for a new shooter, and with hollow point ammo will have plenty of stopping power.  Also the dangers of over-penetration and ricochets are greatly reduced.  The myth about 9mm being ineffective comes from FMJ ammo.

If one is not worried about concealability then err on the side of magazine capacity and comfort of grip.  A picatinny rail and a light are highly advisable.  Lasers, however, are overrated, but not without their uses.  When something goes bump in the night, a concerned home-owner has only to secure one object from its place of safe storage, not several.  You can't always get to the light switch in a dark room, and you don't want to have to grope for things in a stressful situation.  Having your light with you will allow you to selectively illuminate a room at will, and will allow you to identify a moving object in the dark that may turn out to be your dog, your kid, your wife, your drunk friend on the couch, or an armed assailant that has broken into your house with malice on the brain.

Anyone with specific questions should feel free to PM me at any time!
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Dago on December 24, 2010, 03:40:01 PM
Out of all of my wepons I think that a shotgun with a pistol grip loaded with buckshot should do the trick.  Put a flashlight on it as well..  :salute
(http://www.gunstar.co.uk/images/Large/A2750.jpg)

This would mangle someone pretty good, also scaring the crap out of everything else.

Not a fan of pistol grip shotguns, hard to handle for non-experienced and even some experienced.  Collapsible stock is a better choice in my opinion.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Serenity on December 24, 2010, 03:47:06 PM
Not a fan of pistol grip shotguns, hard to handle for non-experienced and even some experienced.  Collapsible stock is a better choice in my opinion.

Agreed. I've got a buddy with a 12ga who occasionally takes the stock off to play around firing from the hip, and I've never been fond of it that way. It's just uncomfortable to shoot pistol grip, not as accurate (Though I could still hit a guy in the hallway, I can't really pick whether I'm blasting kneecaps, torso, or head as well as I could firing from the shoulder), and gives your wrist a thumping you DON'T need when you might end up grappling with a prepared assailant.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: IronDog on December 24, 2010, 10:47:00 PM
I was a fire arms instructor when I was in law enforcement,but I'm old and the sight isn't what it once was.I have a sawed off 12 gauge double barrel shot gun,loaded with double 00 buckshot.If an intruder gets by that,I have a CZ 75B,that I would be forced to use.I probably could only hit center mass,but in my younger years they would have got a get a head shot.I sleep light,and the chances of getting the first shot on me would be slight.I have a real dislike for any type of criminal,and I would look forward to someone trying to invade my property!
The Dawg
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: fbWldcat on December 25, 2010, 01:28:35 AM
I haven't read all the replies, but if this hasn't been posted yet...

African Walking stick. Quite harmless (If not using the club end) and yet very effective.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPNua_SL_fo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPNua_SL_fo)
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Jayhawk on December 25, 2010, 02:20:33 PM
I haven't read all the replies, but if this hasn't been posted yet...

African Walking stick. Quite harmless (If not using the club end) and yet very effective.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPNua_SL_fo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPNua_SL_fo)

Still requires training to become very effective.  Last thing you want is the guy grabbing this from you, which seems even more likely with that thing.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: fbWldcat on December 25, 2010, 07:13:53 PM
Oh, I forgot that every person who attacks you to rob you is going to be trained, and can pull the cane out of the air as you swing it at mach speed towards his/her head. It's easy, you swing it at them, it hits them, they don't back down, you hit them more, hit them with the ball end, they're unconcious, you walk away and claim self-defense (you'd win, supposing it was all actually necessary). Simple as that.

But yeah, I could probably knock Santa cold with one of those things, not ever having a moment's experience with a cane or combat stick.

It is simple, Newton's first law, INERTIA. (Also Newton's Third Law could be incorporated, too: Ball hits head, head snaps the opposite direction).  :aok
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Serenity on December 25, 2010, 07:49:17 PM
Oh, I forgot that every person who attacks you to rob you is going to be trained, and can pull the cane out of the air as you swing it at mach speed towards his/her head. It's easy, you swing it at them, it hits them, they don't back down, you hit them more, hit them with the ball end, they're unconcious, you walk away and claim self-defense (you'd win, supposing it was all actually necessary). Simple as that.

But yeah, I could probably knock Santa cold with one of those things, not ever having a moment's experience with a cane or combat stick.

It is simple, Newton's first law, INERTIA. (Also Newton's Third Law could be incorporated, too: Ball hits head, head snaps the opposite direction).  :aok

They might not be trained, but they may well be bigger than you and have a higher pain tollerance. If that's the case, their adrenaline will likely give them the strength to keep coming after you and grapple for the cane... And that is where training comes in.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: fbWldcat on December 25, 2010, 07:51:48 PM
Well the pointed end is likely to leave welts, bruises and trauma. The ball end will likely do much worse, especially to the skull. Any self-defense will have drawbacks, you don't get something for nothing.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Serenity on December 25, 2010, 07:55:02 PM
Well the pointed end is likely to leave welts, bruises and trauma. The ball end will likely do much worse, especially to the skull. Any self-defense will have drawbacks, you don't get something for nothing.

The problem is, if the guy you're randomly swinging at can take the hits (And that's not as unlikely as it sounds) long enough to rush you, unless you know what you're doing, you're dead.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Jayhawk on December 25, 2010, 08:31:20 PM
To believe that you can simply pick up a weapon and all is well in the world is completely absurd and extremely naive.  You've heard never underestimate your opponent, it's extremely true when it comes to self defense.  Imagine that the guy breaking into your house is on PCP, how is that stick going to work out?  You'll hit him across the head and he'll laugh at you before taking it and cracking your skull.  Plan for the worse, expect the unexpected.  You are more than welcome to carry your stick through your house for self defense, but you might find that sometimes fights don't exactly pan out like in the movies, and the good guy isn't always going to win.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: fbWldcat on December 25, 2010, 08:42:01 PM
True, but honestly, it is the same as a gun; if some guy on drugs rushes you with all intent to kill you and then getting the hell outta dodge, a clip from a 9mm might not make the least bit of difference. It all goes back to picking your poison. Gun: lethal, but not only to the attacker. African Walking stick: non-lethal, and may not be as effective.

And honestly, if you hit anyone in the head with that ball end, it is going to cause some major trauma, brain damage, hemorrhaging, etc. It matters more about how it pans out. Arnold Schwartzenager can't function with a hole in his skull any better than the crack-head down the street with an anger management problem.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Jayhawk on December 25, 2010, 08:50:59 PM
Are you telling me that you see no difference in defensive capabilities between a stick and a gun?  There are plenty of horror stories of guys taking multiple bullets and continuing to function fine, it's always a real possibility.  One can never think that they are invincible.  However, IMO, a firearm is going to have a much much higher chance of delivering a incapacitating hit vs. a walking stick.

Yes, hitting someone across the head would probably cause severe damage.  But here's what you should do, find the most narrow hallway in your house, have your friend come around the corner 3 feet in front of you and charge you, in the dark.  See if you can get a full blown swing in and directly hit the moving head before he gets to you.  Once he is within a foot or two, that stick is useless to the untrained.

Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: fbWldcat on December 25, 2010, 09:01:05 PM
Are you telling me that you see no difference in defensive capabilities between a stick and a gun?

No, not at all, you misinterpreted what I said.

However, IMO, a firearm is going to have a much much higher chance of delivering a incapacitating hit vs. a walking stick.

Of course, it is a lethal weapon, a walking stick is a non-lethal object of self-defense; which has it's perks, you can't die from being smacked in the thigh a couple times but a bullet to the thigh will cause tearing, possible rupture of the femoral artery, broken bone, etc. A gun can be aimed most anywhere on the body for death to occur (head, chest, arms [arteries/veins], legs [same]. The walking stick pretty much either has to be hit hard enough on the chest to cause an arrhythmia or palpatations, or smacked right on the noggin (prefferably in the temple) for there to be even the chance of a lethal blow (supposing you don't have bleeder's disease or leukemia).

Once again, it goes back to picking your poison. Lethality for effectiveness and a chance of getting severely wounded or even killed, or non-lethality for less effectiveness but less of a chance of dying, youself.

I was simply offering the walking-stick as an alternative to a gun.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Jayhawk on December 25, 2010, 09:16:54 PM
No, not at all, you misinterpreted what I said.

Understood, sorry.

Of course, it is a lethal weapon, a walking stick is a non-lethal object of self-defense; which has it's perks, you can't die from being smacked in the thigh a couple times but a bullet to the thigh will cause tearing, possible rupture of the femoral artery, broken bone, etc. A gun can be aimed most anywhere on the body for death to occur (head, chest, arms [arteries/veins], legs [same]. The walking stick pretty much either has to be hit hard enough on the chest to cause an arrhythmia or palpatations, or smacked right on the noggin (prefferably in the temple) for there to be even the chance of a lethal blow (supposing you don't have bleeder's disease or leukemia).

Once again, it goes back to picking your poison. Lethality for effectiveness and a chance of getting severely wounded or even killed, or non-lethality for less effectiveness but less of a chance of dying, youself.

Okay, there are definitely situations that may call for non-lethal force, and like you said earlier, each has it's ups and downs.  In a self-defense situation, where you are being attacked, you probably don't have time to establish intent of attacker.  Does this person just want to smack you around a little, or is he willing to outright kill you?  Not knowing that, you have to assume worst case scenario.  If you feel your life is threatened, you have a right to use deadly force in return.  IMO, it may be too hard for the average person to try and establish what level of force to use on an attacker.  You want to win that fight, because it could mean your life if you loose.  If you don't feel like deadly force is necessary, but fail with your stick, you may only succeed in aggravating your assailant to become more aggressive.  To come back to topic, I think you are less likely to die yourself if you arm yourself with the knowledge and weapons to incapacitate the attacker, not just hurt him.

I was simply offering the walking-stick as an alternative to a gun.

Sure, but I was simply stating that without training, a stick would not be something I would trust my, or my family's life too.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: fbWldcat on December 25, 2010, 09:19:23 PM
Sure, but I was simply stating that without training, a stick would not be something I would trust my, or my family's life too.

Alas, accidental gun deaths are a matter of everyday life. So long as you have it locked away in a safe, you're fine. As soon as you leave it out, it is no better than protecting your family with a stick, especially with children.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Jayhawk on December 25, 2010, 09:34:06 PM
Absolutely, I'm not at all saying that having a gun exempts you from training.  Both require training and responsibility.  I'll just take the gun any day over the stick.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Serenity on December 25, 2010, 09:35:26 PM
Alas, accidental gun deaths are a matter of everyday life. So long as you have it locked away in a safe, you're fine. As soon as you leave it out, it is no better than protecting your family with a stick, especially with children.

I have to disagree here. If you understand your weapon, and ensure your family understands gun safety, keeping a firearm unlocked is perfectly safe. It's when that gun is seen as a toy or it isn't truly understood that it becomes dangerous.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: fbWldcat on December 25, 2010, 09:55:34 PM
I have to disagree here. If you understand your weapon, and ensure your family understands gun safety, keeping a firearm unlocked is perfectly safe. It's when that gun is seen as a toy or it isn't truly understood that it becomes dangerous.

Of course, but still, there are people who choose not to warn their children and then that is when accidents happen. Even kids who know what they are or what they do may get curious, it happened to a friend of mine whose little bro had to be repeatedly put into time-out for carrying the gun, eventually he got ahold of it and shot his foot (gun was still lying around?  :headscratch: )
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: drgondog on December 26, 2010, 09:07:57 AM
Gun safety is a matter of personal responsibility - the use of deadly force is a personal choice and responsibility - both have consequences legal and emotional.

I 'know' accidents happen but I have been an active shooter, hunter and competitor for 50+ years. In all those years I did not know a single person that had a fatal accident for themselves or family.  I taught my children and my grandchildren firearm safety from a very early age - the most simple and direct lesson is that 'every gun' is loaded - period - and to be treated with utmost care respect at all times.. ditto the automobile.

Back to the question - I have a front line perimeter monitored by Irish Wolfhounds (who would be noisy)..but in the country we had different weapons in various locations before we moved back to Texas.

Pump shotgun under the bed, action open with shell (#2 shot which will penetrate only one sheetrocked wall) in chamber, and a pistol in each nightstand - both revolvers.

Those that choose non violent means to defend themselves is also personal choice - but does not belong in the realm of government supervision..
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: fbWldcat on December 26, 2010, 09:21:28 AM
While you may preach the rules of gun safety to your children and grandchildren, not everyone does, sadly. I wasn't trying to say that no one does and everyone who owns a gun is an irresponsible person.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: SmokinLoon on December 26, 2010, 12:11:19 PM
S&W Mod. 10 in .38 Spl.

Easy to learn.  Easy to operate.  Easy to maintain.  Effective and cheap ammo (I suggest a 125gr HP).

You do not need 300 rounds through a hi capacity weapon to get the job done.  LEARN the gun, LEARN how it shoots, and KNOW how you are going to react.

Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Penguin on December 26, 2010, 08:33:21 PM
Ahh.... No. A typical .45 ACP round delivers around 5 times the energy of a common 40 grain .22 Long Rifle round.



Widewing!  Hey, sir!  Remember Whistle Blowing on Global Warming with Moray?  Good times, sir, good times.

-Penguin
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Lab Rat 3947 on January 08, 2011, 12:49:26 AM
Beretta 92FS w/ 135 grain Hydra-Shoks. I carry my mine with me at all times.
Title: Re: Best gun for home defense for a novice shooter?
Post by: Masherbrum on January 08, 2011, 12:59:54 AM
Beretta 92FS w/ 135 grain Hydra-Shoks. I carry my mine with me at all times.

To save time cleaning it, just throw it at the perp.