Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Citabria on July 14, 2001, 01:10:00 AM
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because
[ 07-14-2001: Message edited by: Citabria ]
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...because of the wonderful things it does?
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Its twin-engined fighter ?
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for those runstang pilots who can't extend far enough :D :D
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He 162 would be easer to handel.....Capt. Eric Brown goes to great lengths describing how the He 162 was the best gun platform of all the German jets, and how it manuaved best of all of theam, I think the Me 262 is important but I feal the He 162 would be easer to use in the MA.
(http://content.communities.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetPubPhoto&photoId=nHwCwcPwITG8EbmIY7dVDVSv*jsdI8i7*xPa9imWQTf16JQedowi8wAwiUBW7xR47)
(http://content.communities.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetPubPhoto&photoId=nHwD6d60JNIFs2mHfM9ggHF4xY6Gy1uBBOIL0vAzWuZ4VQ!pBhaoFjvmZM4qCFICQ)
[ 07-14-2001: Message edited by: brady ]
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I just shiver at how porked it will be if its introduced ;)
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true... it has two engines...
surely it will be way undermodelled :p
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What about Meteor, Superfly? ;)
[ 07-16-2001: Message edited by: Mitsu ]
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Naaaaa we have enough LW iron, how about this (http://www.pelzigplatz.f2s.com/hikoki_files/kikka.html) instead ;)
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I agree with mitsu, if you bring in one, you must bring in the other.
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Citabria, you need the Me262 as much as I need you as a red icon on my 6... :p hell, or anywhere else near me for that matter! <S!>
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Brady, are you a moron!? The He-162 was a waste of time, materials, guns, and pilots! The damn things aileron broke off on a test flight! The plane sucked! It only carried 2x20mm cannons or 2x30mm cannons!
The best Jet fighter of the war was the Me 262. The Gloster Meteor was a terrible design, thats why they never put it into combat at the front. It would have gotten mauled by 262's! The P-80 (American Jet Fighter only hours away from being operational when the war ended) was alittle beter than the Meteor, but still wasnt good.
The guy who wrote what you read is a complete love muffin and is obviously whacked out of his gord!
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Originally posted by uberkid:
The guy who wrote what you read is a complete love muffin and is obviously whacked out of his gord![/QB]
Forgive me, but doesn't your signature file say something about not posting something that makes you look like a love muffin? Nice ears. Starting out your post by calling someone a moron...anyone else hear that annoying braying sound?
8=X Col. PapaH
Cutthroats Mercenary Company
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About the He162:
to defend Brad: yes E. Brown, found out that it had the highest tactical speed of all jetfighters of WW2, that means u were able to aim with it at speeds were a ME262 was prone to certain movements cause by high speeds that made it impossible to line up
also the HE162 had a much better roll than the ME262, but thats no wonder, look at the wingspan, wingarea and aileron are and u see why
but against the 162: it was hard to handle (not easier than the 262), no newby plane at all, its tricky flight characteristics killed more than one pilot. the ME262 was heavier armed had better range and better visibility from cockpit so it was overall the better combat plane.
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'ME 262 prince of turbojet
Junkers Jumo 004
Blast these clustered R4M quartets in my snout
See these English planes go burn
Now you'll be my witness how red were the skies
When the Fortresses flew for the very last time
It was dark over Westphalia
In April of '45' '
...
Nah, I'd rather have a P-40.
anRky
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twin engine?
First Me110, next Me410 then Me262.
(Also British and Japanese twin engine fighters...)
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The P-80 (American Jet Fighter only hours away from being operational when the war ended)
It was operational.
""The service history of the Shooting Star begins in 1944, when the decision was made to deploy four service test YP-80As to Europe (Operation Extravirsion) to demonstrate their capabilities to combat crews and to help in the development of tactics to be used against Luftwaffe jet fighters. 44-83026 and 83027 were shipped to England in mid-December 1944, but 44 83026 crashed on its second flight in England, killing its pilot. (the tail seperated during a high speed fly by killing Major Fred Borsodi). 44-83028 and 83029 were shipped to the Mediterranean. They flew some operational sorties, but they never encountered any enemy aircraft. They were both returned to the USA after the war.....
The first 17 P-80As off the line were assigned to the 31st Squadron of the 412th Fighter Group,supplementing the YP-80As that the Group had already received. More P 80As went to the 29th and the 445th Squadrons of this group in the summer of 1945. This group was in preparation for deployment to the Pacific when Japan surrendered. In the summer of 1945, approximately 30 P-80As were sent aboard an aircraft carrier to the Philippines in preparation for the final assault on Japan. The planes were to be issued to the 414th Fighter Group, based at Florida Blanca. Unfortunately, the planes had been sent without their tip tanks and their aircraft batteries, so they sat aboard the aircraft carrier for 30 days waiting for this equipment. By the time that the batteries and wingtip tanks were delivered, the war in the Pacific had ended, so the P 80 never got a chance to enter combat in the war against Japan." -- Baugher
(http://www.townisp.com/~jugdriver/YP80.GIF)
-Westy
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Just wondering why America continued to produce the "crappy P-80/F-80" and Britain the Meteor after the war...
BTW, where was the 262 being produced? ;)
I think it would be interesting to match the P-80 against the 262. IMHO the P-80 would hand the 262 its a**.
The first of three I-40 prototypes, designated XP-80A, made its first flight on June 10, 1944. Thirteen service test aircraft had been ordered and delivery of these began in October. Three of these were sent to Italy, but saw only limited operations and never faced an enemy aircraft.
The war ended before the Shooting Star reached any combat units.
Hey, if you want a real "Rumble", wouldn't this be a blast? :D
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Originally posted by Kieran:
<SNIP> I think it would be interesting to match the P-80 against the 262. IMHO the P-80 would hand the 262 its a**. <SNIP>
I dunno... I'd hate to go H2H in a P-80 with .50cals against a Me 262A-1a Schwalbe with it's Four 30mm Mk 108 cannon, but even worst would be H2H against the Me 262A-1a/U4 Pulkzerstörer with it's One Mauser MK 214A 50mm Cannon :D
Me 262A-1a Schwalbe http://www.crosswindsims.com/stormbird/playerimages/a1a_action.jpg (http://www.crosswindsims.com/stormbird/playerimages/a1a_action.jpg)
Me 262A-1a/U4 Pulkzerstörer http://www.crosswindsims.com/stormbird/playerimages/u4_action.jpg (http://www.crosswindsims.com/stormbird/playerimages/u4_action.jpg)
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Here's something to think about:
Galland flew the Meteor extensively.
It's true! After the war, he built the Argintine airforce, and they were supplied with Meteors.
I've read an interview (sorry, can't find the link) in which he said that while the 262 was the better airframe, the Meteors engines so much much better (and serviceable) as to make it a credible threat. In balance he preferred the 262, but as to which would prove the most *servicable* plane he had an open mind.
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Kieran, the P-80 was improved greatly over the next couple of years after the war and it served very well as a good transition aircraft to the F-86 and an all jet USAF.
As for a P-80 vs ME-262 match? It would certainly be a good fight :)
ME262A-1a
540 MPH (at what alt?)
(262A-1a: 540 mph)
(262A-2a: 470 mph)
(262B-1a: 497 mph)
scve ceiling 40,000 ft
range: normal range 650 Mi
"about 4000 ft/minute"
P-80A
558 mph at sea level
492 mph at 40,000 ft
scve ceiling 45,000 ft
range: normal 780 mi; w/wing tanks 1440 mi
Initial climb rate was 4580 ft/min
(*note, the P-80 was lighter and smaller than the ME-262.
Also the guns on the ME-262 were more appropriate for
bomber killing than fighter-fighter work. Not saying that
the ME-262 did not shoot down Allied fighters but the
slow rof of the 30mm made it hard work at best)
Milenko, my beloved Yak is under going inadequacy issues now that you've mentioned the 50mm ME-262 :D
Westy
[ 07-19-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]
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So four YP-80 test planes "saw" action in WW2, one of them by killing its pilot and two by cruising over Italy ?
And some ppl wants that plane to AH because it saw action ?
Sure :D
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Originally posted by Westy MOL:
Milenko, my beloved Yak is under going inadequacy issues now that you've mentioned the 50mm ME-262 :D Westy
No Worrys Westy, remember what they say about "cannon" size...It's not about how big your cannon is, it's how ya use it![/b] :)
Ya can always tell when someone has a small "cannon", 'cuz they always say that. :D
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"And some ppl wants that plane to AH because it saw action ?"
Staga, feel free to come on in from left field at any time! :)
I never advocated it. Although it's use is on par with a DO-335. I would rather see the Meteor included when or if we ever get the ME-262. I was simply talking about the P-80 and how it's place in the final days of WWII.
Westy
*lol Milenko. I may use that in a sig file :)
[ 07-20-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]
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Westy in my response there actually were list of "rare-birds" which saw very limited action in war but I thought I should wait if YP-80 gets in this sim :D
snip:
The XXXXXX pre-production fighters were to be powered by a pair of XXXXXX turbojets, 1962 lb. st. each. Estimated maximum speed was 590 mph at sea level and 607 mph at 39,370 feet. Maximum ceiling was to be 52,500 feet (!!! Remember, this was only 1945, folks!). Maximum range was estimated at 1180 miles, and initial climb rate was to be 4330 ft/min. Weights were estimated at 10,140 lb empty, 16,550 lbs. normal loaded.
Tip: B-2 looks like this one :D
It's not P-80 but if we get that one then this one has also right to be in plane-set ;) :D
So: YP-80 to Aces High! (I'm serious btw)
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My vote is for the Me262 and the Meteor. Along with the Ar234, it would really upgrade the "Battle of Britain II" Snapshot we ran last month. I'd also love to get the B-29 as the logical bomber opponent of the 262.
I wrote up a story line a while back, who's premise was that the clashes between Soviet and Americn/British forces in the closing months sparked all out war between these erstwhile allies, just as Germany was on the brink of complete defeat. B-29's are shifted to the European theater to attack the Soviet Union, only to run into a Red Air Force flying captured Me262's and He162's. Interesting...
P.S. I'd also rather see the P-40N first, though :D.
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In WB's Jet Day, the 262 was nothing more than an annoyance.
Bring it on :)
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With AH fuel multiplier, He 162 would barely have fuel for takeoff. :)
Me 262 and Meteor would be great.
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Merely stating a hypothetical, Staga. It would be an interesting fight is all I'm saying. I think the more conventional layout of the P-80, coupled with flatter trajectory, higher ROF guns would put the 262 at a decided disadvantage. The P-80 would likely be more forgiving in the slow-speed handling department and be able to land lead on the target easier. If the numbers that Westy posted are accurate then it would seem the 262 couldn't run from a P-80, either.
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Staga, is that info for the GO-229 that never saw more than two protoptypes? ;)
I'm not sure even I'd like to see a P-80. It's out of place and somehting I associate with postwar pictures or even Korea.
I am all for production aircraft (in AH or anywhere) though. But if the door is open to prototypes and what was on the drawing board then we get into a whole new realm of air warfare Both the Axis andthe Allies had alot of good stuff brewing up that could be fun in a 'what if' "1946" arena.
Westy
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Yup, Westy, what the sim world needs is the Ryan Fireball! :D
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Bring the Fireball to Aces High!
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Well, the Fireball doesn't give me wood. ;)
But the stuff on Luft'46 is most interesting and then there was the F5U-1, F6U, F7U, FH-1 Phantom, P-79, P-72, FJ-1 B-36 and B43 as well as the Gloster Vampire and e.1/144 for just the UK and US.
Pic of p-79 (glass nose where pilot lays prone makes plane look odd; like a manta ray) this is a pre VE day plane btw. Started in 1942:
(http://jpcolliat.free.fr/north/images/xp-79b_06.jpg)
Westy
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The P-80 never flew an operational sortie during the war. It may have flow in europe, but never fired its guns in anger. The Me 262 was the best fighter of World War II in that it had a heavy armament practical in the anti-bomber role and anti-fighter role. It could out-run the P-51 by something like 100mph. It incorporated a swept-wing design, a very revolutionary thing back then. Was very maneuverable.
The only thing wrong with early variants were the throttle sensitivity, but that was fixed before the end of the war. The Jumo 004 engine had only a running life of 10 hours, thats the only thing that the Meteor and the P-80 had on it, the engines. The Meteor was unmanueverable so they put it to work busting V-1 cruise missiles. The P-80 was a poor design (the trainer variant is still in service today) coming from a country so economically and industrialy powered as the USA was. The German Genesis, the Me-262, was by-far the best fighter of WWII. And to come from a country being continually bombed is amazing.
The interesting thing is that the messerschimdt plant was never bombed. One of there production facilities was overlooked by Allied intelligence and not a single bomb was dropped on it.
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The Meteor was put to work shooting down V-1s because the early Meteors, with Welland engines, were fairl fast at low level, and slower than late war piston engined fighters at higher altitudes.
The Meteor III, with Derwent engines was much better, but was banned from overflying German territory until the very end of the war, in case the Germans learned how to build a proper engine :D
Regarding manoeuverability, didn't the 262 have a wingloading of around 60lb/sq ft? More than the B-26 Marauder, which had to have changes made because it's wingloading was considered exessive even for a medium bomber.
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Tell me, ain't this one BAD^SS Lookin' MOFO?
(http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW/Me262-Mk214-42.jpg)
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The twin engined aircraft that we need are not the Me262, Meteor MkIII or P-80.
The twin engined aircraft that we need are the Me410A-2, Mosquito FB.VI Series 2 and P1Y1 Ginga.
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Well thats your opinion :)
Just testing my new sig:
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Originally posted by uberkid:
The P-80 never flew an operational sortie during the war. It may have flow in europe, but never fired its guns in anger. The Me 262 was the best fighter of World War II in that it had a heavy armament practical in the anti-bomber role and anti-fighter role. It could out-run the P-51 by something like 100mph. It incorporated a swept-wing design, a very revolutionary thing back then. Was very maneuverable.
The only thing wrong with early variants were the throttle sensitivity, but that was fixed before the end of the war. The Jumo 004 engine had only a running life of 10 hours, thats the only thing that the Meteor and the P-80 had on it, the engines. The Meteor was unmanueverable so they put it to work busting V-1 cruise missiles. The P-80 was a poor design (the trainer variant is still in service today) coming from a country so economically and industrialy powered as the USA was. The German Genesis, the Me-262, was by-far the best fighter of WWII. And to come from a country being continually bombed is amazing.
The interesting thing is that the messerschimdt plant was never bombed. One of there production facilities was overlooked by Allied intelligence and not a single bomb was dropped on it.
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. While from an engineering standpoint, the Me-262 was more innovative than the P-80 (The swept wings on the 262 were what convinced North American that a swept-wing design for the P-86 was worth lookingt into), the P-80 was an excellent fighter design. It was practical, simple, maneuverable, reliable, easy to fly, clean, and fast. The guns were not as powerful as those on the Me-262, but the design was not an intercepter. .50's were also far more reliable than the guns used on the 262. The aircraft was exceptionably stable, and could do some very impressive things with a skilled pilot at the controls.
So in conclusion, despite the technological and engineering innovation of the Me-262, the P-80 was practically the superior design. It went on to serve in the Korean War, where it gave the United States an excellent and capable fighter, first for air superiority and later for ground support.
I hate to say it, but this statement: "The P-80 was a poor design (the trainer variant is still in service today) coming from a country so economically and industrialy powered as the USA was." is utter hogwash, and an example of typical (and irritating) LW elitism. "If it was built for the Luftwaffe, it would sweep the skies of anything else. If it was built by the Allies, it was a poor, inferior design that prevailed solely through numerical superiority." This is utterly ridiculous. The P-80 was an excellent aircraft. Do you think the trainer would still be in service if it wasn't? Of course not.
So please, try and open your mind a little more about the a/c in question. Innovative does not necessarily = better. Look at the He-162 for an example. The Me-262 was brilliant, the wave of the future, and a wonderful example of how a fighter should be designed and built, but it's performance (and reliability) simply weren't up to the same level as many contemporary designs that were more conventional.
[ 07-21-2001: Message edited by: ispar ]
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Once again, I am not espousing the P-80 for AH, but look at the numbers here:
P-80 Info (http://www.aviation-history.com/lockheed/p80.html)
It would be a fun fight, I think.
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BTW, anyone know the winner of the first jet vs. jet confrontation? ;)
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If you do ever bring in the P80, why not put in the 262 that it was most likely to face in combat later in 1945 and into 1946.
This new one would have MG213 1200rpm hi velocity 20mm cannon or the lower velocity 30mm version.
Plus it was to have new BMW sourced engines that took speeds up to 600mph.
Such a machine was being redied in the Messerschmitt factory in April and the MG213 were allready installed.
Certainly this new Me262 has as much relevance as any WW2? P80.........
But im sure you would all disagree.
If allies want a jet, which is entirely fair, then they get Meteor anything else is ridiculous.
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Hey, watch the foam at the corners of your mouth!
I am NOT advocating the P-80 for addition to AH. Do not turn this into a "if they get to have that then we need this" situation.
FWIW, the P-80A would be a contemporary of the 262 that ended WWII. That would be comparing apples to apples, not like taking the April 1945 P-80A and comparing it to the December 262. The December P-80 would have had an uprated engine, and would have only been better.
Still, keep your knickers on. I don't think the P-80 belongs in AH, I have only said it would be an interesting fight.
Sheesh, some of you guys have awfully big chips on your shoulders. :rolleyes:
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FWIW, I was not doing any advocating myself... I was trying to dispel still another myth of the Luftwaffe - that because it was new and different, it was the best of the best, and nothing from the same time period could stand against it, which is not at all true. Uninformed statements like that really erk me. I don't think I need to defend the honor of the Shooting Star any further - its record speaks for itself. I mean, it did win the first jet engagement in history ;).
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the p-80 would own the me-262
no contest
the jumos sucked, germany just didnt have teh pproper ore to produce good engines
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p80 owned the 262(kikka) in Aces Over the Pacific: 1946. What more proof do you need? :)
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Kikka is not Me262 copy.........
Its not even close, its a completly different and much much slower bomber/attack plane.
It only has passing resemblance to the Me262 in that it shares a similar engine layout.
As for people wanting the P80, thats typical from people that want P51H.
Why dont you cut the bullsit and just ask for what you really want in AH, the F22. As surely you can find some clever justificaion as to why it belongs in a WW2 related airplane game.
Lets see:
F22 designer alive in WW2? Check!
Airplanes in WW2? Check!
A jet exists in WW2? Check!
America in WW2? Check!
Go figure I certainly see how F22 can fit in WW2 game...
All go for F22 in AH!!!!!!
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The P80's reputation is not based on a comparision with Me262s as it was not used in WWII. It's reputation, which was not the very best, comes from its comparision against more advanced aircraft, Migs in Korea, at a much later date. It would probably be comparable or better than the Me262. However, I don't think ANYone here is suggesting including the P80 in AH so why do people keep complaining?
The Me262 is a very logical addition to AH but it would change the dynamics a lot and up the annoyance level quite a bit- especially for those pilots who want to live and land. The Ar234 was an excellent addition to AH: it gets an operational jet in play, but it doesn't change the balance much, as it doesn't have guns.
By the way- someone mentioned the swept wings of the Me262 as an example of superior German science and technology. Actually, I believe the swept wings were a total accident and not a result of advanced high speed aerodynamic research. They swept them back to move the balance back- they had no idea of the effect on trans-sonic aerodynamics.
715
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Put the P80 in AH!
:)
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Some info on the 262/P-80 numbers I found in a quick search. P-80 listed under 262.
Engine: Two 1,986 lb (900 kg) thrust Junkers Jumo 004B axial flow Turbojets
One 4500lb (2,041kg) thrust Allison J33-A-21 turbojet.
Wing Span: 41 ft 1 in (12.5 m)
38 ft 9 in (11.81 m)
Length: 34 ft 8.5 in (10.58 m)
34 ft (10.49 m)
Height: 12 ft 6.75 in (3.83 m)
11 ft 4 in (3.45 m)
Weight: Empty 8,820 lb (4,000 kg)
Empty 8,176 lb (3,709 kg)
Loaded 14,938 lb (7,045 kg)
Gross 11,700 lb (5,350), Max T/O 14,000 lb (6,350)
Maximum Speed: 540 mph at 19,685 ft (870 km/h at 6,000 m)
577 mph (929 km/h) at 6,000 ft (1,830 m)
558 mph at sea level
492 mph at 40,000 ft
Ceiling: 37,664 ft (11,450 m )
45,000 ft (13,716 m)
Range: 650 miles (1,050 km)
780/1,440 miles (1,255km/2,317 km)
Climb Rate: 3,937 ft/min (1,200 m/min)
4,580 ft/min (1,396 m/min)
Armament: Four 30 mm MK108 cannons in nose, two with 100 rounds each, two with 80; could also carry 24 R4M 55 mm unguided rockets on
underwing racks.
P-80: Six .50cal mgs, 2,000 lbs bombs, 10 rockets (5 in?)
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I give, Grun. Point to, and quote, the exact reference in this thread where you see anyone say, or even insinuate, we should have the P-80 in AH.
edit here: Of course we know that Hangtime's request was a jab at the LW. ;)
The P-80 was brought into the discussion by uberkid's rather naive comment on its "crappy design". Since then every comment on the P-80 has been made in comparison to the vaunted 262 (and a few Korean era jets), but none have suggested that the P-80 be added.
I personally have stated it would be a great fight between the 262 and P-80. I have also flatly stated I am not for adding it. I have re-read the thread thinking maybe someone else is asking for it. Result? Not one person in the thread appears to be asking for it.
Wanna know what is funny, though? The second someone threw out the performance numbers on a contemporary American jet fighter (by contemporary I mean fighters in production at the same time, so don't give me the "how many served in the war BS") you chime in with "well, if you get this we need to get the 262 that would have served 6 months later". The brutal fact is the P-80 of April 1945 would have kicked the 262 of April 1945's a**. You know it, and I know it. The other brutal fact is that, since America was slow (by virtue of the fact they didn't have to rush development as badly as Germany did) to get the P-80 into service it didn't see any action (though it was in the theatre at war's end). This in my mind disqualifies the P-80 from service in AH.
By all means, advocate whatever plane you wish. Push for the 262, it was in service during the war and should be included. But for crying out loud, could you at least somewhat avoid mischaracterizing the discussion as a means of justifying your advocacy? :rolleyes:
[ 07-22-2001: Message edited by: Kieran ]
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a p-80 in a ww2 sim?
might as well add in the f86
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no kidding