Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Slade on December 29, 2010, 07:03:15 PM
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It might be fun to fly the BF-209-II. It might need to be perked I don't know.
It was not in uber squadron strength but there are some other planes here that are in that zone. ;-)
She's a mighty fine plane that we should be able to experience one day I hope. It seems to have originated from a non-military speed racer and does not really use the BF-109 as an earlier blueprint unlike the name suggests.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/78/Me_209_(display_model).jpg)
Certainly no lack of information on this plane:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_209-II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_209-II)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_209 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_209)
http://www.experiencefestival.com/messerschmitt_me_209-ii (http://www.experiencefestival.com/messerschmitt_me_209-ii)
http://www.vectorsite.net/avbf109_3.html (http://www.vectorsite.net/avbf109_3.html)
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Messerschmitt_Me_209-II (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Messerschmitt_Me_209-II)
Thanks for considering,
Slade :salute
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More Info.
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=763 (http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=763)
(http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/imgs/messerschmitt-me-209-ii.jpg)
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It was not in uber squadron strength but there are some other planes here that are in that zone. ;-)
Have you actually read the links you posted?
There is no plane in AH in that zone, for the 209-II wasn't just not in "uber squadron strength" - It did never see service at all.
More Info.
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=763 (http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=763)
First paragraph in that article: " The Messerschmitt Me 209-II was a proposed successor to the far-reaching Messerschmitt Bf 109 fighter."
And by the way: The picture in you first post isn't even showing a 209-II..
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Have you actually read the links you posted?
Yes.
It did exist as you can see from the articles. The 262 was the "proposed successor" to single engine fighter planes. ;)
And by the way: The picture in you first post isn't even showing a 209-II
The article lists it as the the speed racer variant.
Do you think it would be fun to fly?
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Yes.
It did exist as you can see from the articles. The 262 was the proposed successor to single engine fighter planes too. ;-)
The 262 wasn't a proposed succesor - it wa one. It did see action. The Me 209-II had only a few prototypes, was never in serial production and did never see any action in WWII. Every plane in AH was.
The article lists it as the the speed racer variant.
If you had actually read the stuff you linked you would know that the "speed racer" variant was not the Me 209-II but an entirely different, unique plane, whereas the 209-II was a evolution of the 109G series.
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Lusche,
Thank you for correcting me. There is no limit to the context that syntax can be used to make a point.
It seems though the precedence has already been set for having planes with low production runs.
the 209-II was a evolution of the 109G series.
The articles suggest it shared components of the 109g. Who knows for sure?
1. It did exist.
2. It might be fun to fly.
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It seems though the precedence has already been set for having planes with low production runs.
A production run is not several prototypes built. A plane that had a small production run is still a plane that has been put into production. We don't have any planes that were never put into production. That's not semantics, it's a completely different ball game.
Further, the Me 209 and the Me 209-II are two completely separate, unrelated aircraft.
It seems though the precedence has already been set for having planes with low production runs.
The articles suggest it shared components of the 109g. Who knows for sure?
Anyone who looks at photographs of it. The Me 209-II was a Bf 109G with a chit-ton of modifications and a new engine (Jumo 213 series IIRC)
1. It did exist.
2. It might be fun to fly.
Same can be said for every other plane that ever existed. Doesn't mean it has a place in Aces High.
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Rule #1... never doubt the snail ;)
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Doesn't mean it has a place in Aces High.
Thanks for pointing that out. Can you please direct me to the criteria or fact sheet AH keeps on posting planes in the Wishlist forums?
Please hear my intention. Email\posts can be cold. I am honestly asking for where the official listing of what the criteria are to post a plane for real consideration by AH.
Thanks. :salute
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Rule #1... never doubt the snail ;)
Rule #2... better ignore rule #1 (Look up the most recent "favourite Spitfire" thread to see some major gastropodean embarrassment :uhoh :bolt:)
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Thanks for pointing that out. Can you please direct me to the criteria or fact sheet AH keeps on posting planes in the Wishlist forums?
Please hear my intention. Email\posts can be cold. I am honestly asking for where the official listing of what the criteria are to post a plane for real consideration by AH.
Thanks. :salute
Don't know any official criteria other then it had to have seen actual WW2 service. Luft 46 birds, one off prototypes etc don't fit the profile.
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This is absurd... THe Me209 was a propoganda stunt to try to steal the world speed records of the time. There was all of 1 or 2 made. They were unarmed. They were NOT combat aircraft. On top of that it was a major blunder because the performance was WORSE than actual combat aircraft!
Please, for the luvva Pete, do a little reading before you wish for a plane that never really existed.
EDIT: I noticed after the fact you're talking about a paper-design with a prototype that was promptly cancelled.
Try again. Sorry. Do not pass GO, do not collect $200.00.
Do you have ANY idea how many 1-off prototypes never flew in the war? On ALL sides? There's more failed attempts than there were successes!
We have a precedent, as you state, but this does NOT meet the criteria.
Criteria are (in no particular order):
1) Production craft only (no test platforms or prototypes)
2) Must have served at least one unit in force
3) Must have seen combat.
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This is absurd... THe Me209 was a propoganda stunt to try to steal the world speed records of the time. There was all of 1 or 2 made. They were unarmed. They were NOT combat aircraft. On top of that it was a major blunder because the performance was WORSE than actual combat aircraft!
Please, for the luvva Pete, do a little reading before you wish for a plane that never really existed.
EDIT: I noticed after the fact you're talking about a paper-design with a prototype that was promptly cancelled.
Try again. Sorry. Do not pass GO, do not collect $200.00.
Do you have ANY idea how many 1-off prototypes never flew in the war? On ALL sides? There's more failed attempts than there were successes!
We have a precedent, as you state, but this does NOT meet the criteria.
Criteria are (in no particular order):
1) Production craft only (no test platforms or prototypes)
2) Must have served at least one unit in force
3) Must have seen combat.
lanstukas never saw combat and yet we have them in aces high. werbies and spit16 mostly saw combat on tv. and the weird looking airplanes that came out of the con shooting lazers, I am almost positive those never saw combat in ww2 either. and let's not forget the fat guy in the red suit on x-mas eve.
semp
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Thanks for pointing that out. Can you please direct me to the criteria or fact sheet AH keeps on posting planes in the Wishlist forums?
Please hear my intention. Email\posts can be cold. I am honestly asking for where the official listing of what the criteria are to post a plane for real consideration by AH.
Thanks. :salute
This is unofficial but I believe it's accurate.
HTC models aircraft that saw action in WW2 in squadron strength.
To model an aircraft to their standards they need more than a picture and a list of basic performance statistics.
You can wish for whatever you like. Other people can post their opinions about your wish but their opinions don't change anything. It doesn't matter if everyone approves or disapproves of your wish. What matters is if HTC believes your wish would improve Aces High.
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I say put it in the game anyway in training arena or offline practice.
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This is absurd... THe Me209 was a propoganda stunt to try to steal the world speed records of the time.
It did. It also ran a total loss cooling system and was unarmed. The original fuselage is in a museum in Poland, or was as of a few years ago. It would be neat to see them restore that one.
The 209 never came to be as a fighter. The Me309 was an attempt to replace the 109, but never saw production. Had some pretty evolutionary stuff. There is a large book called Willie Messerschmidt Aviation Designer (Something like that) that has some real good detailed information about Messerschmidt airplanes from his first to his last. The only ones that saw "squadron" service that we don't have (primary airframes) are the 210/410 and the 323.
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lanstukas never saw combat and yet we have them in aces high. werbies and spit16 mostly saw combat on tv. and the weird looking airplanes that came out of the con shooting lazers, I am almost positive those never saw combat in ww2 either. and let's not forget the fat guy in the red suit on x-mas eve.
semp
well actually semp :)
santa flew a tempest (http://www.hawkertempest.se/res/default/christmasatvolkel.jpg)
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well actually semp :)
santa flew a tempest (http://www.hawkertempest.se/res/default/christmasatvolkel.jpg)
Gold, pure Gold :)
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spit16 mostly saw combat on tv.
Still pushing this lie? Grow up. Spitfire LF.Mk IXe/Spitfire Mk XVI saw a huge amount of combat. Deal with it.
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lanstukas never saw combat and yet we have them in aces high. werbies and spit16 mostly saw combat on tv. and the weird looking airplanes that came out of the con shooting lazers, I am almost positive those never saw combat in ww2 either. and let's not forget the fat guy in the red suit on x-mas eve.
semp
Are you serious?
Lancasters did see combat, it was one of the main, if not main bomber for the RAF and as noted many times in other posts, the Spitfire Mk XIV did see a lot of service and recorded a number of kills as well.
How someone flies a particular plane in AH has no bearing on the service of the plane in real life.
ack-ack
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And by the way: The picture in you first post isn't even showing a 209-II..
He's confusing the Me 209 with the Me 209-II thinking they're the same bird.
ack-ack
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ack I said lanstukas, not lancasters. but I stand corrected on the fat guy.
semp
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lanstukas never saw combat and yet we have them in aces high. werbies and spit16 mostly saw combat on tv. and the weird looking airplanes that came out of the con shooting lazers, I am almost positive those never saw combat in ww2 either. and let's not forget the fat guy in the red suit on x-mas eve.
semp
Semp you are clueless on the 16. I posted just one squadron's kills in the general forums. How many examples of the 16 in combat do you need?
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,303190.0.html
How long do you think the 190D9 was in combat just out of curiousity?
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This is unofficial but I believe it's accurate.
I believe HTC staff (Pyro or maybe HiTech himself) came out and explicitly stated it more than once. I've searched for it in the past and found the links, but search isn't working too well right now.
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Semp you are clueless on the 16. I posted just one squadron's kills in the general forums. How many examples of the 16 in combat do you need?
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,303190.0.html
How long do you think the 190D9 was in combat just out of curiousity?
not putting the 16 down. but then again i bet lancasters shot down more airplanes than the spit16's ever did in the same amount of time. spit16's may have been used for lots of missions but they came in so late in the war, that the german airforce was basically no more and most german pilots had very little training. then again, most allied pilots that flew from december 1944 to end of war probably didnt see many axis fiters either. I remember reading a book from one german ace that did survive the war and how he would look outside everyday and count 600-800 allied planes in the air and not a single german plane attacking them.
that's why I make a reference that spit16's mostly saw war on tv. It's a joke. You know joker from full metal jacket. he was in vietnam, but he was a combat correspondent, and mostly saw combat on tv. :salute
semp
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Why haven't you said Me? One is an Me209, the other a Bf209.
The 262 wasn't a proposed succesor - it wa one. It did see action. The Me 209-II had only a few prototypes, was never in serial production and did never see any action in WWII. Every plane in AH was.
If you had actually read the stuff you linked you would know that the "speed racer" variant was not the Me 209-II but an entirely different, unique plane, whereas the 209-II was a evolution of the 109G series.
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See Above............. The supposed production model was a Bf, not the Me.
He's confusing the Me 209 with the Me 209-II thinking they're the same bird.
ack-ack
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guncrasher,
You do know that the Spitfire Mk XVI is a Spitfire LF.Mk IXe, right? They have the same performance, same armament, same fuel endurance. When speaking of the combat the Spitfire Mk XVI saw, in terms of AH, you really have to include the combat the Spitfire LF.Mk IXe saw as well.
In fact, the Spitfire Mk XVI in AH is actually a Spitfire LF.Mk IXe as its full throttle height is that of a Merlin 66, not the Merlin 266 which is a couple of thousand feet higher.
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guncrasher,
You do know that the Spitfire Mk XVI is a Spitfire LF.Mk IXe, right? They have the same performance, same armament, same fuel endurance. When speaking of the combat the Spitfire Mk XVI saw, in terms of AH, you really have to include the combat the Spitfire LF.Mk IXe saw as well.
In fact, the Spitfire Mk XVI in AH is actually a Spitfire LF.Mk IXe as its full throttle height is that of a Merlin 66, not the Merlin 266 which is a couple of thousand feet higher.
or maybe its just a combat flight simulator game that in instances it doesnt come even close to real life(110 coudnt turn in real life like in ah, lancs couldnt dive bomb, planes with 1/2 a wing would not fly at full speed, etc...). like I said it's a joke :bolt:.
semp
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Semp it may be a joke, but folks who have little clue to the history tend to take comments like that and think there is a basis in truth to it.
Considering air to ground was far more more dangerous combat then air to air, what the 2 TAF pilots and the 9th AF guys could hardly be called watching TV. Having known many real Spit drivers, and some who finished their war in 16s, I tend to be a bit protective.
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Why haven't you said Me? One is an Me209, the other a Bf209.
There was no Bf 209. The project started as BF 209, but that designation was changed when the Bayerischen Flugzeugwerke AG did become Messerschmitt AG, which happened before the maiden flight. This plane was also called Me 109R for propaganda purposes.
the Me-209 designation was then simply recycled for a different plane, the 209 "II"
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In mid 1937 Robert Lusser looked for a plane that would seize for Germany the absolute speed record. The first attempts were made by a modified Bf-109V-13 # D-IPKY. on 11 Nov 1937 it flew an average of 610.95 kmh, beating the current land plane record holder the Hughes H1. Messerschmitt wanted more. The MC 72 held the record at 709 kmh. The project was internally know as the 1059. In mid 38 it was renamed the Me-209 (although it was officially known as the Bf-209). Used a DB601 with surface evaporation cooling. Although they experienced some development issues, on 26 April 1939 the (P1059/Me-209/Bf-209) flew 755 kmh.
The V4 variant of this airframe was tested for military application, however it proved unsuitable as a fighter. The plane was given a military paint scheme as a propaganda ploy. This planes record stood as the official speed record until 16 august 1969 when Daryl Greenamayer attained 771 Kmh in a F8F-2 Bearcat.
The "New" 209 was using many components of the Me-109 G. However, after realizing that performance would be similar to the other German airframe it was decided to discontinue the 209 and focus on 262 development (25 May 1943). The 309 was going to happen, however the bombing attacks on Augsburg on the 25-26 Feb 1944 ended the 309.
All from The History of German Aviation "Willy Messerschmitt Pioneer of Aviation Design" by Ebert/Kaiser/Peters
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Thanks for the great feedback.
Correct, my request was for the BF-209-II (not the BF-209).
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Correct, my request was for the BF-209-II (not the BF-209).
There still never was a BF 209-II ;)
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Don't argue the semantics of it. Bf and Me are interchangable, and in fact you'll find many official forms from the war with Me109 on one part of the page and Bf109 on another part of the same page.
It was the same company.
That's not the issue. The issue is the validity of the proposed plane that should be added to AH.
There simply IS NO validity. It's a non entity that never existed aside from 2 prototypes with 2 different engines.
Dumb idea. Leave it at that.
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Don't argue the semantics of it. Bf and Me are interchangable,
This isn't a question of semantics, and it was not the same company. Calling the Me 209-II a Bf is plain & simple wrong. For the 109 both was used on occasion, because the 109 was a Bf, it was build when the company existed.
The 209-II however was a 1943 plane - 5 years after the the Bayerische Flugzeugwerke became the Messerschmitt GmbH. The 209-II never was a "Bf".
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Lusche, it is semantics. It's basically going down to the minute detail level to differentiate BF and Messerschmitt. For all intents and purposes the prefixes are interchangable on those early war planes.
And, I said "don't argue the semantics of it" only because that lends justification for the plane request in the first place. However you want to call it, I was trying to say, the suggestion is absurd.
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Lusche, it is semantics. It's basically going down to the minute detail level to differentiate BF and Messerschmitt. For all intents and purposes the prefixes are interchangable on those early war planes.
:rofl
The Me 209-II is no early war plane. The prefix was never used for it.