Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: CptTrips on December 30, 2010, 07:33:59 PM
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HTC asserts that the majority of the player base has more fun in a capped arena. They assert that the Market indicated this by increased subscription rates after arena caps were instituted. The Market, when not artificially constrained, will naturally seek its own self interest.
I have the utmost respect for HTC’s technical and business competence and have been a long time fan. However, I have to admit, that I find this utterly amazing. I can only state what I personally feel as a MMOG player. For me, it’s the “massive” part that would intrigue me and to be shunted off to an underpopulated arena is anathema.
Of course, I don’t have access to HTC’s financials so it would be ridiculous for me to challenge their assertion. However, I think there is a way they could demonstrate this preference that would be visible for all to see. It might once and for all lay to rest all the arguments.
Let the Market demonstrate its own self interest.
Create LWArena1: Large map. Uncapped.
Create LWArena2: Small map. Capped.
Players may log into either. Players who get frustrated by overcrowding in the uncapped arena will opt for the capped arena.
Players who prefer an uncapped arena will stay in the uncapped arena.
If the capped arena reaches its limit, another capped arena is created.
There will always be a capped arena available for players who prefer that.
There will always be an uncapped arena for players who prefer that.
HTC says capped arenas are “here to stay.” Fine, this doesn’t violate that statement. There will always be a capped arena available at all times for those who prefer it.
No choice is forced on either. The Market will make it clear what the majority prefers.
It will then be easy to HTC to point to the empty uncapped arena when players claim that is what the majority want.
Thoughts?
Regards,
Wab
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Adam Smith is rolling over in his grave.
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Adam Smith is rolling over in his grave.
I was hoping for something a little more concrete.
;),
Wab
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You would have a false choice: one arena is monstrously underpopulated and one arena is cancerously overpopulated.
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You would have a false choice: one arena is monstrously underpopulated and one arena is cancerously overpopulated.
So, are you saying that players won't voluntarily choose the capped arena?
The only way to populate a capped arena is by force?
That would hardly meet my definition of the "preferred" format.
Regards,
Wab
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So, are you saying that players won't voluntarily choose the capped arena?
The only way to populate a capped arena is by force?
That would hardly meet my definition of the "preferred" format.
Regards,
Wab
Modern people are by definition, lazy. They won't want to wait around for what they want (in this case, virtual air combat).
There will of course be the select few with bad connections or rigs from the 90's that will be forced to fly in the capped arenas, due to less
players (therefore less stress on the system/connecting to fewer players, and fewer virtual airplanes in one area), but the majority is almost
guaranteed to hit the cesspool and find the fastest fight.
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So, are you saying that players won't voluntarily choose the capped arena?
The only way to populate a capped arena is by force?
That would hardly meet my definition of the "preferred" format.
Regards,
Wab
Sadly, what people want and what is good for the game are at odds. There are many research studies that state that if a 'group' gets larger than a fixed number it fails to 'police' itself, and thus a toxic environment develops (hence why we have laws, and law enforcement). The same is true with the game, ie beyond a certain number, it becomes no longer fun.
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eskimo what do you mean by cesspool. and can you point out when it happens during titanic tuesday. so I have an idea. or are you referring to the v squad attacking only undefended bases with 20 or 30 guys.
semp
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Sadly, what people want and what is good for the game are at odds. There are many research studies that state that if a 'group' gets larger than a fixed number it fails to 'police' itself, and thus a toxic environment develops (hence why we have laws, and law enforcement). The same is true with the game, ie beyond a certain number, it becomes no longer fun.
Ardy123,
You raise an interesting point.
However, once the "certain number" is reached, wouldn't there be a pressure for players to leave and go to one of the capped arenas if they choose?
Players seem to have little trouble moving to another field when they are no longer having fun at the field they are at. Why would you think them incapable of moving to another arena if they are not having fun at the one they are at?
I agree people often are not good at "predicting" what will be fun for them, but I think they are perfectly capable of realizing whether they are "currently" having fun or not, even if they don't understand why. And they tend to be willing to "move" when they are not.
This is the very mechanism HTC claims potential players voted with on choosing to subscribe once caps were implemented with. They assert they were not having fun before caps so they left. They assert they had more fun once caps were implemented, so they stayed. HTC asserts the player are capable of determining whether or not they are having fun and will move if they are not.
HTC believe players have that capacity at least.
Regards,
Wab
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Players seem to have little trouble moving to another field when they are no longer having fun at the field they are at. Why would you think them incapable of moving to another arena if they are not having fun at the one they are at?
In my experience, one would simply rather leave the game entirely than leave one arena and potentially waste their time in the other.
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eskimo what do you mean by cesspool. and can you point out when it happens during titanic tuesday. so I have an idea. or are you referring to the v squad attacking only undefended bases with 20 or 30 guys.
semp
I'm not referring to the v-dweebs. They're not a cesspool, they're just a bunch of skill-less monkeys from what I've seen.
That's a hoard, which is rather different from a cesspool. No, I cannot define it for you, go through highschool first.
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However, once the "certain number" is reached, wouldn't there be a pressure for players to leave and go to one of the capped arenas if they choose?
There are several reasons why not. One of them is that nobody wants to be among the first in an almost empty arena, even if they dislike the "overcrowded one"
Just think of the many players that state they would like to fly more EW, MW, AvA, WWI... if there just were more people there. The paradox is, if all of them would go there, there would be enough numbers for that. But they don't go there because nobody else does.
And each Titanic Tuesday I see quite a number of players complain about that arena, "too many players, too big furballs, only hordes, too dweeby", yet they do not go to MW (or any other low-key arena). They either stay & complain, or just log off.
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On thing that is different beyond a certain population level is communication. The bigger an arena is, the less actual communication happens between players. It's getting more and more anonymous, with veteran players sticking to their squad channels mainly. I think it's very esay for a new player to "get lost" at that time, which in part can explain why with split arenas the player retention after trial end was higher than before.
However, lack of communication doesn't necessarily equal bad player behaviour as some do think - The worst atmosphere I have encountered in my 5 years of AH was in very small (EW&AvA) arenas.
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Just think of the many players that state they would like to fly more EW, MW, AvA, WWI... if there just were more people there. The paradox is, if all of them would go there, there would be enough numbers for that. But they don't go there because nobody else does.
Funny, when the exact same mechanism was suggested to test the preference between a strat-enable and furball only WWI arena, you seemed to feel it was valid in that case. How is this different?
And each Titanic Tuesday I see quite a number of players complain about that arena, "too many players, too big furballs, only hordes, too dweeby", yet they do not go to MW (or any other low-key arena). They either stay & complain, or just log off.
Isn't the difference there you are asking them to go to an arena that doesn't have all the planes they might want to fly? They would have to switch more that arena more than likely, they might have to give up their prefered ride. Thats awfully different.
On thing that is different beyond a certain population level is communication. The bigger an arena is, the less actual communication happens between players. It's getting more and more anonymous, with veteran players sticking to their squad channels mainly. I think it's very esay for a new player to "get lost" at that time, which in part can explain why with split arenas the player retention after trial end was higher than before.
OK then. New players are limited to the capped arenas for the first 6 weeks. After that they can choose which arena they want. No different than now except they can eventually earn the right to make their own choice of the arena format they want (capped or unlimited). Currently, they never get to make that choice.
;),
Wab
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Isn't the difference there you are asking them to go to an arena that doesn't have all the planes they might want to fly? They would have to switch more that arena more than likely, they might have to give up their prefered ride. Thats awfully different.
I would believe that if those players wouldn't complain all the time about Spixteens and Lala hordes. ;) (Unlike EW, MW has a very balanced planeset)
OK then. New players are limited to the capped arenas for the first 6 weeks. After that they can choose which arena they want.
So new players are limited to the arena where almost nobody else does fly but other new players. Doesn't sound like a good idea to me.
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You didn't answer the first question. :)
So new players are limited to the arena where almost nobody else does fly but other new players. Doesn't sound like a good idea to me.
They won't be alone. They'll get the capped arenas initially seeded then the "majority" of players who prefer capped arenas will hop on over.
:cheers:,
Wab
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I have only two points here,
First, the public has show time and time again that it has no idea what it wants. Just look at the wishes posted in those threads. Look at the wishes that have been granted and then complained about for months on end.
Second, we already know the results of your test. People will stay in the over populated arena creating a toxic arena causing subscriptions to stagnate. This is why the arenas were split in the first place. Why try it again?
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You didn't answer the first question. :)
Funny, when the exact same mechanism was suggested to test the preference between a strat-enable and furball only WWI arena, you seemed to feel it was valid in that case. How is this different?
Actually I didn't oppose your idea, did I? I was merely giving some arguments & food for thought. :)
besides, it's a totally different issue. It's not about overpopulation there. There will never be any chance for WWI to get that popular, no matter how you do the setup. No reason ever for any kind of population control. That's why :)
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besides, it's a totally different issue. It's not about overpopulation there.
Thats an understatement. ;)
No, what I was refering to was the higher concept of placing two choices in front of a Market free to choose and letting market forces migrate to the choice of higher self interest.
Thats all I'm suggesting here. I believe players, over time, will migrate to where they are having the most fun, unless they are artificially constrained.
To argue that players can't even figure out when they're having fun or not, is rediculous. Players will migrate to where they are having the most fun. Thats how HTC gained market share initially. People tried it, had more fun, and migrated from one sim to another (only later did they gain share from closures). Thats how they migrate from one field to another trying to maximize their "fun" profit. Thats how they migrate from one arena to another.
Thats why AvA......nevermind. :bolt: (Just kidding! Bad joke.)
:cool:,
Wab
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They won't be alone. They'll get the capped arenas initially seeded then the "majority" of players who prefer capped arenas will hop on over.
:cheers:,
Wab
They would be alone as most people would, complaints or not, stay in the arena where everybody else is. The problem is that the "toxic environment" that HTC is talking about is not readily apparent to players. It is like the frog floating in the pot of water that is slowly being brought to a boil. The frog never notices anything is wrong. If you just drop the frog into a pot that is already boiling, he'll feel it and try to get out.
The truth is that the customer is not always right. This may be more true for games than any other product.
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I'm not referring to the v-dweebs. They're not a cesspool, they're just a bunch of skill-less monkeys from what I've seen.
That's a hoard, which is rather different from a cesspool. No, I cannot define it for you, go through highschool first.
so you have no idea what Hitech means by cesspool, but you like repeating it. I know what he means, he has explained it several times. I dont agree with it, but then again its not my game. I can only vote with my 15 bucks.
and my 30 year high school reunion is coming up soon. maybe I'll go thru high school memory line if it makes you happy.
semp
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:rolleyes:
Not going to happen. No use even describing why if you do not understand how invalid your arguments are.
HiTech
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:rolleyes:
Not going to happen. No use even describing why if you do not understand how invalid your arguments are.
HiTech
Communist! :lol
Well, I've certainly learned a lot this thread.
Appearently all HTC customers are stupid cattle. (Everyone is saying "Of course, well, except for me!" :lol)
They not only can't know what they want, but can't even know when they are having fun or not.
They certain shouldn't be trusted with any kind of choice.
In fact, I'm sorta concerned we're allowed to select our own fields and aircraft. Do you think thats safe?
Wouldn't it be better for HTC to select our aircraft we fly and what field we launch from based on what they know is best for us?
:neener:,
Wab
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I think this is a case for Mr. Belial. He will change your mind. :D
(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/289/300belialp.jpg)
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Communist! :lol
Well, I've certainly learned a lot this thread.
Appearently all HTC customers are stupid cattle. (Everyone is saying "Of course, well, except for me!" :lol)
They not only can't know what they want, but can't even know when they are having fun or not.
They certain shouldn't be trusted with any kind of choice.
In fact, I'm sorta concerned we're allowed to select our own fields and aircraft. Do you think thats safe?
Wouldn't it be better for HTC to select our aircraft we fly and what field we launch from based on what they know is best for us?
:neener:,
Wab
While I understand you are being sarcastic.....well I hope you are.....I think you may want to look at the subscribers we have these days. I don't have the numbers, but I'd be willing to bet that more than half the players playing these days are under 21. Those players have been brought up by the computer in online communities like WOW, Tibia, Ever Quest and any other game where you numbly go about whacking away on the other players to get your score.
A few years ago the the player base was tilted toward WWII buffs looking to "live" the fighter pilots roll, today its just a vehicle to get your score in. Most of todays players aren't mature enough to make a sound decision, that's why you don't see too many major company's run by 20 year olds. That's what your running into here. HTC must make the game attractive to as many people he can while not letting the game destroy itself from with in. A fine line to walk.
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Wab,
It has nothing to do with people being stupid or not. There are rational reasons to go into a packed LWA when you would enjoy MWA more. Individuals cannot alter these things without collective planning, and AH is not set up for collective planning like that.
The other issue is that very few players have the training and knowledge to make informed decisions like you are suggesting and the consequences of lots of wrong decisions has serious repercussions for HTC.
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The other issue is that very few players have the training and knowledge to make informed decisions like you are suggesting and the consequences of lots of wrong decisions has serious repercussions for HTC.
My pet example is the collision modeling. I if we would run a poll on how to do it, I bet the majority of players (not BBS folks) would instantly vote for "both go down" instead the way it is now. ;)
(Result: they would go boom with never seeing any collision at all and then scream "HTC has messed it up again!" :lol)
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The other issue is that very few players have the training and knowledge to make informed decisions like you are suggesting
sorry but thats rubbish, players are perfectly capable of deciding whether they prefer an arena with 500 or one with 50. they make that choice already (some of the latter group make up the EW/MW/AvA crowd.) they made that choice during the previous uncapped daytime dual LWAs. they made that choice for the ?6 weeks we had 2 fixed cap LWAs.
collision modelling is a bad analogy for this.
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While I understand you are being sarcastic.....well I hope you are.....
Actually, quite often, I lose track myself.
:lol,
Wab
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sorry but thats rubbish, players are perfectly capable of deciding whether they prefer an arena with 500 or one with 50. they make that choice already (some of the latter group make up the EW/MW/AvA crowd.) they made that choice during the previous uncapped daytime dual LWAs. they made that choice for the ?6 weeks we had 2 fixed cap LWAs.
collision modelling is a bad analogy for this.
You're wrong. Players lack all the information needed to make that decision. They may think they prefer a single arena and will make that choice without being aware they are also choosing HTC's decline and eventual closing because they don't see the new player retention rates. Given that additional bit of data, most players would select the option that is good for the game. The other problem is that many players cannot see past the end of their nose when making requests as to what they want.
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You're wrong. Players lack all the information needed to make that decision. They may think they prefer a single arena and will make that choice without being aware they are also choosing HTC's decline and eventual closing because they don't see the new player retention rates. Given that additional bit of data, most players would select the option that is good for the game. The other problem is that many players cannot see past the end of their nose when making requests as to what they want.
If HTC felt they could increase subscriptions by choosing your aircraft (to ensure a wide and varied set of planes in the air), and by choosing the field you launch from (to ensure a proper distribution of players across the map to avoid hordes) would you be OK with that?
Would you be OK with only flying the plane from the field they they feel is in your best interest?
Would you be willing to surrender those choices if that got HTC more subscriptions?
Just curious.
Wab
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Use the NOE's as an example then. The players looked at it as the easiest and safest way to grab a base. What they didn't see was it was ruining the game by making the majority of players do nothing but AVOID any fights. Sure if you busted an NOE you got 4 kills and 3 proxies, but none of them where even close to a fight. 2 minutes of "spraying and praying" and then looking for the next NOE some place leads to boredom pretty quick. HTC stepped in and changed the set-up and oh did they scream!!! But now there are more fights and yes there are even NOEs to be had. A pretty good example of "the people" not knowing what they want.
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You're wrong. Players lack all the information needed to make that decision. They may think they prefer a single arena and will make that choice without being aware they are also choosing HTC's decline and eventual closing because they don't see the new player retention rates. Given that additional bit of data, most players would select the option that is good for the game. The other problem is that many players cannot see past the end of their nose when making requests as to what they want.
my apologies, I thought you meant the players decision about which of 2 arenas to fly in, given the choice, rather than the players deciding by vote or whatever how the arenas should be set up. should have reread your post :)