Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: geepel on January 05, 2011, 06:48:29 PM
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I've been thinking that an improvement to the game might be to restrict bombers to just one drone. Seems to me that a single fighter should have the upperhand encountering a bomber formation. WWII bomber gunners often commented about how difficult it was to hit a fighter coming at them but here in this simulation it is rare that a single fighter can take out the threat if the bomber pilot has any experience. Seems to me that having only one drone would result in the real need for fighter protection instead of a single bomber with two drones flying solo over a base hitting starts and not worrying about an encounter with a fighter. If they were less lethal there would be more strategy then just jumping in a bomber and flying to a non protected enemy base.
Curious if others see this as an improvement?
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If the fighter is flown well with patience a group of 3 buffs isn't that hard to take down, with a wingman "easy peasy"
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I've been thinking that an improvement to the game might be to restrict bombers to just one drone. Seems to me that a single fighter should have the upperhand encountering a bomber formation. WWII bomber gunners often commented about how difficult it was to hit a fighter coming at them but here in this simulation it is rare that a single fighter can take out the threat if the bomber pilot has any experience.
It is not difficult at all to take out an entire formation with a single fighter even if the bomber pilot is "experienced".
Seems to me that having only one drone would result in the real need for fighter protection instead of a single bomber with two drones flying solo over a base hitting starts and not worrying about an encounter with a fighter. If they were less lethal there would be more strategy then just jumping in a bomber and flying to a non protected enemy base.
Curious if others see this as an improvement?
No offense, but the only ones that seemingly have a tough time in engaging bomber formations are the attackers that don't know how to properly attack a bomber formation.
Instead of asking to have the game nerfed in some fashion, why not ask a trainer or some other players for tips on properly attacking a bomber formation?
ack-ack
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It is not difficult at all to take out an entire formation with a single fighter even if the bomber pilot is "experienced".
have u ever tried to kill 9999000? That dude pings me up from 1.5k
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have u ever tried to kill 9999000? That dude pings me up from 1.5k
Id love to see if 999000 has video of me ina 370$ 262 n trying to kill him :uhoh
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have u ever tried to kill 9999000? That dude pings me up from 1.5k
If you're getting pinged from that far out, you better revisit your tactics.
Yes, I have faced 9999000 numerous times, doesn't change the fact that with proper tactics a buff formation is usually on the short end of a stick against an attacker as 9999000 found out the times we've crossed paths.
ack-ack
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I'll post something Hitech said in a similar thread a few months ago:
Then Ill attack your whine you sniveling dweeb. Since you admit your immaturity above.
You can not even understand the basic concept that war simulation and aircraft simulation are 2 completely different concepts.
Not only that your premises of Zero's and p-51s fighting is again incorrect, you have every opportunity to fly AvA.
So grow up and ask for what you really want. I.E. you want bombers to be easier to kill because you are not skilled enough to be up to the task.
HiTech
HiTech
Not that you were up to the point Nem was, but the bolded is the point.
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From what I've seen is that people tend attack bombers from their low 6; I've found it best to attack them from their high 10 and 2 positions.
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buffs go down easy enough as it. Ive had my entire formation of lancs completely destroyed by 1 passing quick burst from a spitfire. The guy came from a high 10 o' clock position and by time he was at my 5 o'clock I was in the tower.
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From what I've seen is that people tend attack bombers from their low 6
And that's why most die while trying to attack bombers.
I've found it best to attack them from their high 10 and 2 positions.
buffs go down easy enough as it. Ive had my entire formation of lancs completely destroyed by 1 passing quick burst from a spitfire. The guy came from a high 10 o' clock position and by time he was at my 5 o'clock I was in the tower.
For those that find attacking bombers is just a tad above their skill level, read the above two quotes and then tell me what they have in common If you figure it out correctly, you're one step closer to being able to attack a bomber formation successfully.
ack-ack
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A box of three is fine as is. Patience and practice is the key for fighters to down a box of bombers. There are plenty of players with that kind of patience, and therefore the patience to teach you if you choose to learn.
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Geepel if you are having trouble intercepting and attacking bombers I would suggest using WGr-21 rockets as it allows you to attack to most dangerous part of the bomber with immunity and also helps the problem of calculating an interception path due to the fact the the only thing you have to do is come up behind them
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From what I've seen is that people tend attack bombers from their low 6; I've found it best to attack them from their high 10 and 2 positions.
This is very true. There are positions in which gunners have difficulty leading the enemy plane.
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I admit that Lancasters are not too difficult to take down with some patience. And I agree that a formation of 3 17's can be killed, But the fact remains they still seem to be a little too lethal. Reducing survivability may make for better game play. For those that like to drop bombs, one less drone would not reduce their fun but survivability would go down. This in turn may result in more strategy because a B-17 may actually need escort. I think it would reduce the milk runs because escorts would mean a bigger dar bar and attract more attention.
I, for one, see this as an improvement to strategy.
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If you're getting pinged from that far out, you better revisit your tactics.
Yes, I have faced 9999000 numerous times, doesn't change the fact that with proper tactics a buff formation is usually on the short end of a stick against an attacker as 9999000 found out the times we've crossed paths.
ack-ack
Film or it didn't happen.
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I admit that Lancasters are not too difficult to take down with some patience. And I agree that a formation of 3 17's can be killed, But the fact remains they still seem to be a little too lethal. Reducing survivability may make for better game play. For those that like to drop bombs, one less drone would not reduce their fun but survivability would go down. This in turn may result in more strategy because a B-17 may actually need escort. I think it would reduce the milk runs because escorts would mean a bigger dar bar and attract more attention.
I, for one, see this as an improvement to strategy.
Ok... So the flying fortress "can be killed".
Also... "the fact remains they still seem to be a little too lethal". Where did you get that, facts are backed up with evidence, you offer none.
Milk runs, what milk runs!? :bolt:
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F6F's dont have WGr-21 rockets. Geepel flies the hellkitty almost exclusively. Personally I don't have much trouble normally killing buffs. I even killed a whole flight of lancs in a bravo pony last week. I think the problem really lies in the laser .50s that our bombers have. When I fly bombers I will actually slow down to allow fighters to catch up faster, especially if they are closing from dead 6 or low 6. It's quite easy to vaporize them in 17s and 26s. If they calculated hit percentage for bomber gunners I'm quite sure mine would be 2-3x higher than my fighter hit percentage.
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My mistake I wasn't aware of what plane he flies
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Jayhawk, seeing as this post is just based on my observations I don't have any facts. Do you have facts that show a flight of B-17's flying over Berlin and its survivability is modeled correctly if it encounters a solo 190?
It is ok if you disagree with me. I am just thinking that one less drone would result in better tactics by the bomber pilot and raise the need for escort.
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Rapier and I ripped through a formation of B17's a couple weeks ago in our FW190's (an A5 and an A8).
Took about 15 seconds to kill them all.
Talk about "need for an escort"! Whew!
High five to Rapier!
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I actually prefer to attack buffs from the high 5 and 7.
Never really found it that difficult to attack 999 from these positions.
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Me rude3boi and skunk were flyin other night in C-hogs and we called out our targets for buffs...Me left, rud3 middle, skunk right..
You should have seen the buffs go down it was like a symphony lol :D
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The only time it should be difficult to shoot down a bomber formation is in two cases.
1. I'm in the fighter
2. I'm in the bomber ;)
:salute
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Jayhawk, seeing as this post is just based on my observations I don't have any facts. Do you have facts that show a flight of B-17's flying over Berlin and its survivability is modeled correctly if it encounters a solo 190?
It is ok if you disagree with me. I am just thinking that one less drone would result in better tactics by the bomber pilot and raise the need for escort.
I used the term 'facts' because you did. However, I'll again refer you to HiTech's point,
war simulation and aircraft simulation are 2 completely different concepts.
The point being that everything is modeled correctly, but this is a game and not real life. So you can't compare war events with game events.
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Like others have said be patience and setup your attack, DO NOT rush it!
For most bombers high slashing attacks from the 9 O'clock or 3 O'clock position tend to work well as it's generally hard to track fighters from above because of their speed. Also you tend to face less guns.
No matter what happens DO NOT attempt to make a pot shot after your initial attack. Once you've made your pass get away and take your time setting up the next attack. This right here is where I kill most attackers, they setup and make a beautiful attack giving me limited options, however, they screw up and try to get a second pot shot attack in. The problem is at this point they've blown their E and Alt advantage along with the fact that they've now drifted behind my bombers and are easy pickins.
When possible, get a wingman and attack from 2 different directions. Remember a B17 formation may have 30 men in it but they can only look in one direction at a time. ;) (unless you have a gunner of course)
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Last tour was mainly a buff tour for me, spending almost 90 hours in the B-17 and Ki-67 mostly.
And it was amazing. More than 80% of my attackers insisted on parking on my six, even when they still had all other options. More often than not, a player would spend like 10-15 mins taking off & climbing up to me but then be completely unwilling to spend another 3-5 minutes trying to set up a proper approach. Usually, being a dedicated buff hunter myself, I had the urge to yell at them "NOT this way dude, it will only kill you!"
The few times my pursuer started to climb above & overtake me I knew I was in deep doodoo...
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The few times my pursuer started to climb above & overtake me I knew I was in deep doodoo...
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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buffs go down easy enough as it. Ive had my entire formation of lancs completely destroyed by 1 passing quick burst from a spitfire. The guy came from a high 10 o' clock position and by time he was at my 5 o'clock I was in the tower.
Yo :neener:
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No change to buffs seem to be needed at this time as far as I am concerned.
A squaddie and I once took out a set of lancs in 2 passes using P40E's. I know you said that Lancs are easy enough to kill but I would say not so much against P40's though. I will look for film and show to offer proof.
Your biggest problem is tactics being used. Instead of asking to push the buff pilots to get an escort why don't you take the time to find a trainer to show you how to take out the buffs and/or find a wingman. After all you want historical accuracy right, where is your wingman while you are flying right up the buffs 6.
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Reducing survivability may make for better game play.
No it won't ... it will just make it easier for you.
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I love to see inexperienced fighters lining up on my 17's at my 6 o'clock. Like cows to the slaughter. Then comes the pilot that knows what he is doing, he flys high and to my 10 or 2 o'clock, waits, then straffs me from the sides, and then the end is near.
Its all about experience, a good fighter has no trouble taking bombers out, a bad pilot is just cannon fodder.
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Give em a couple more AI's. No really. Honestly I feel guilty taking out all 3 when the guy has invested his time to get up to alt. Many times I will give a salute after taking out 2 of 3 and wish them luck, break off and fly away to the next target. Especially if they are RTB and empty. I would guess that with fewer AI the good buff pilots would go for more alt than before. What I do not understand is the bomb and bail buff guys. I was exclusively a buff pilot in Warbirds. I was a dweeb and did the bomb and bail crap. I did it to piss people off, nothing more. One day I did this and then had a polite conversation by the guy I did it to, initiated by him. He invited me to his fighter squad and trained me to fly and fight. Everything changed for me then. It was his act of kindness that got it started, no amount of namecalling and complaining to me had ever worked. This one act of kindness changed the game for me. I discovered the joy of beating your apponent trumped pissing him off by flying like a dweeb. The gentelman I speak of was Broz, CO of JG27 in Warbirds. Wife ack killed him permanently just before the squad jumped to Aces High. I miss him. I owe him one. Just one act of kindness from you may change this great game we have forever for someone else.
Finally, my philosophy toward this game is summed up in my signature. Please join me. If you would actually like to join me, I am in a fantastic squad now, the Arabian Knights. We are always looking for adults who fly with honor. If not that then join me in the Battle Over Germany, BOG. I have been gifted with the lead of III/JG27 and I really need some pilots. Please join us.
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Removing a drone will most likely not have the desired effect of more strategy from the buff pilots. It would probly only promote more of a milk run type play style for the majority of the buff sorties flown in game. Of course there would still be ecceptions (for example the 91st HBG or the Dickweeds HBG) but for the most part I think it would have a negative effect on the game. And most important of all...3 B17s flying over a target is a lot sexier than only 2 B17s :D
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I finally found it, the proof that will show how badly this bomber scourge needs to stop.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/88nbafms37wi1qs/pwning%20lancs.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/file/88nbafms37wi1qs/pwning%20lancs.ahf)
This film will surely show that it is way too hard to kill 3 bombers with superior aircraft.
I told you I would find it.
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Ack-Ack and many others....I'm painfully aware know what they are doing! To be honest I think any attack on a B17 group that is co-alt is to the B17's advantage. I even think anything less than a 30 degree attack is an advantage for a half decent gunner. True it is hard to hit a fighter who attacks from the 9 or 3 sweep pass..but my experiience has been the fighters usually don't land enouph hits to actually take the bomber down....a case of I don't get them but they don't get me.
HOWEVER THOSE WHO ATTACK FROM ABOVE 45 DEGREE AGLE MAKE LIFE UTTERLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR US B17 PILOTS!!!!! Part of the issue is simple many don't attack in this way so gunners are not well practiced in these attacks. In all despration the only wayy to take the high degree attack away is to go NOE which presents another set of problems.
<S> my friends!
999000
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Ack-Ack and many others....I'm painfully aware know what they are doing! To be honest I think any attack on a B17 group that is co-alt is to the B17's advantage. I even think anything less than a 30 degree attack is an advantage for a half decent gunner. True it is hard to hit a fighter who attacks from the 9 or 3 sweep pass..but my experiience has been the fighters usually don't land enouph hits to actually take the bomber down....a case of I don't get them but they don't get me.
HOWEVER THOSE WHO ATTACK FROM ABOVE 45 DEGREE AGLE MAKE LIFE UTTERLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR US B17 PILOTS!!!!! Part of the issue is simple many don't attack in this way so gunners are not well practiced in these attacks. In all despration the only wayy to take the high degree attack away is to go NOE which presents another set of problems.
<S> my friends!
999000
The Bomber god has spoken.
-End of thread-
wrongway
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Then Ill attack your whine you sniveling dweeb. Since you admit your immaturity above.
You can not even understand the basic concept that war simulation and aircraft simulation are 2 completely different concepts.
Not only that your premises of Zero's and p-51s fighting is again incorrect, you have every opportunity to fly AvA.
So grow up and ask for what you really want. I.E. you want bombers to be easier to kill because you are not skilled enough to be up to the task.
HiTech
HiTech
Hi Techs stealer customer service skills never cease to entertain me.......
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just the other day i was hunting buffs with my n1k...crossed paths with b17's and attacked from high 5, his first 2 drones went down with my first slashing attack and then i killed the other one from the bottom as i came up and didnt get a scratch on me. that might work for you but everyone is different.
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Ack-Ack and many others....I'm painfully aware know what they are doing! To be honest I think any attack on a B17 group that is co-alt is to the B17's advantage. I even think anything less than a 30 degree attack is an advantage for a half decent gunner. True it is hard to hit a fighter who attacks from the 9 or 3 sweep pass..but my experiience has been the fighters usually don't land enouph hits to actually take the bomber down....a case of I don't get them but they don't get me.
HOWEVER THOSE WHO ATTACK FROM ABOVE 45 DEGREE AGLE MAKE LIFE UTTERLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR US B17 PILOTS!!!!! Part of the issue is simple many don't attack in this way so gunners are not well practiced in these attacks. In all despration the only wayy to take the high degree attack away is to go NOE which presents another set of problems.
<S> my friends!
999000
999 you ever notice how if you kill a fighter while in buff, is because the fighter used the wrong tactics? It's never because the buff driver is a good gunner. I am beginning to actually think, and some good fighters here can be the witnesses, that once you become a semi-soso gunner the chances of getting shot down by a single fighter are not that high.
semp
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im just wondering when using the lanc does the corkscrew manuver work like the vets said
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999 you ever notice how if you kill a fighter while in buff, is because the fighter used the wrong tactics? semp
It's because 99.99% of the time it's true. If one was to excercise good patience and judgement along with the proper tactics a bomber in this game isn't very hard to shoot down. Those that use the proper tactics pick attack paths that will minimize their exposure to any defensive fire. In addition, a proper attack path will also force the gunner to switch positions which also greatly minimizes the exposure to defensive fire on the egress of the attack.
Now that the warping bomber big had been fixed when you shoot down the lead bomber, it just gives the attacker another angle to approach at whereas before when the bug was around, you had to shoot down the bombers in a pattern (right bomber first, lead then left bomber) to avoid the high risk of a collision with the right drone warping into the lead position.
Most attack from a dead six position or slighty off angle to the dead 6 where they are exposed to all three tail guns and the egress route is usually below the lead bomber (if the attack survives long enough) and is further exposed to the defensive fire of the 3 ball turrets. If they survive the gauntlet of the ball turrets then they face another gauntlet of defensive fire as they over take the bomber formation.
Whereas using the proper tactic, you can minimize the exposure to defensive fire so that at any one time you only have one defensive gun tracking you and and it's for the minimal amount of time and the single gun that is tracking (the top turret). The angle and speed of your dive makes it very difficult for the gunner to get a proper lead, so while the gun might be tracking you and firing, your speed and angle makes getting a proper lead difficult. This usually results in the rounds falling below your plane as you make your attack. Your egress will usually put you below and slightly ahead of the bomber formation but since the gunner had to switch from top to nose turret, these few seconds are all you need to get out of range of the nose guns before you start to enter into a shallow climb to prepare for your next pass.
ack-ack
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im just wondering when using the lanc does the corkscrew manuver work like the vets said
Yes but in all honesty I have only seen the corkscrew performed once in my time in AH and that was about 9 years ago when a squadron mate and I upped a Lancaster to look for a dogfight. I was the pilot and my squadron mate was the gunner sitting in the nose gun and we got into a tangle with a Spitfire. Managed to keep out side of his guns for a bit and got enough of an angle a couple of times that allowed my squadron mate to score some hits but once I ran out of altitude I was dead in a heart beat. Was extremely fun but sadly, the last time I took up a Lancster to dogfight.
I have never seen any other Lancaster (or any other bomber) try and use the corkscrew maneuver when attacked.
ack-ack
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You need to develop better fighter tactics. Buffs are easy kills most of the time you're not coming in from their 6.
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Hi Techs stealer customer service skills never cease to entertain me.......
If you go read that entire thread, and a few others of the poster HiTech referred to, you would see that the comment was entirely appropriate.
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If you go read that entire thread, and a few others of the poster HiTech referred to, you would see that the comment was entirely appropriate.
Absolutely, that player was eventually removed from the boards for his behavior.
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Ack-Ack..is right in many ways...Very hard to hit the fighter on the way in....I actually concentrate on the SA and my fire much more as the fighter passes out and away.
999000 <S>