Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Owlblink on January 18, 2011, 07:51:12 PM
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I've been flying the 109K for a month or two now, I manage to land a few kills here and there and have made use of the torque roll defense to cause a con to overshoot. I try to use the vertical as much as possible in a fight but I feel like I must be doing something wrong. On occasions I can get myself around at the top to come down after an enemy plane, though most of the time, when I try to perform the hammerhead, I end up torque spinning a few times at the top instead of reversing back down.
What I've been doing, based on what I've been told, is to throttle down at the top, push forward-left on the stick, apply left rudder, and then roll the throttle back up just enough to make the plane turn over. Perhaps I am turning the throttle on too soon? I've also tried popping flaps out to hang a bit longer but this seems to keep me from being able to push forward on the stick, so I'm guessing I should avoid hanging on the flaps unless I absolutely need to hang a bit longer.
Can anyone explain to me the timing on the controls, or perhaps point out my mistake in control input? I'd love some training on this if someone has the free time to walk me more thoroughly through it, however well written instruction would be just as appreciated if someone could share their wisdom.
:salute
P.S. you guys :rock thanks for taking your time to read my post :)
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I'm not a 109 expert but I'll take a shot at this. I think you are running yourself out of airspeed at the top. Without any forward (i.e. upward) movement your rudder will have no effect. I would try to reverse at about 60-80 mph.
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Owlblink...
Do you remember the simple exercises I showed you where all you do is a power on and power off stall? the move you are trying is based on fully understanding how torque and throttle management 'moves' your plane.
I end up torque spinning a few times at the top instead of reversing back down.
This is happening because of two things... too much throttle when you are bellow 100 mph, and you may be waiting too long(ie.. too slow) to execute the maneuver.
Perhaps I am turning the throttle on too soon? I've also tried popping flaps out to hang a bit longer but this seems to keep me from being able to push forward on the stick, so I'm guessing I should avoid hanging on the flaps unless I absolutely need to hang a bit longer.
Flaps won't make the move easier or harder, flaps reduce your needed recovery alt and cause you to get to a slower speed quicker when going straight vert.
Also, remember, don't slam the throttle, gently pull the throttle off or push the throttle on.
Can you post a video of yourself trying? Then I can analyze it and tell you exactly why.
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<<<snip>>>
What I've been doing, based on what I've been told, is to throttle down at the top, push forward-left on the stick, apply left rudder, and then roll the throttle back up just enough to make the plane turn over. Perhaps I am turning the throttle on too soon? I've also tried popping flaps out to hang a bit longer but this seems to keep me from being able to push forward on the stick, so I'm guessing I should avoid hanging on the flaps unless I absolutely need to hang a bit longer.
<<<snip>>>
You are applying rudder in the wrong direction...you should use FULL RIGHT RUDDER.....once the planes nose drops then use left rudder and throttle to control the nose.
If you use left rudder you increase the spin..the tork is to the left...left rudder will just snap you over without control and you will as you describe tumble several times.
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My guess is that you are pulling vertical too soon. I would try drawing the bogey into the horizontal component for a tad bit longer before hooking it up into the vertical. Typically throttle work is only required if the bogey cuts his throttle or is slow to begin with.
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:huh
I don't suppose you could post a step by step procedure list for this move?
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It would be nice if someone could post a video of this with voice commentary. I'd like to see how its done.
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ok here is a film of me doing it to the left... It's sloppy as you can see me roll a little, but its the general idea.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/bba0qc85tirdb11/left-hammerhead.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/file/bba0qc85tirdb11/left-hammerhead.ahf)
Here is a film of me fighting (dedalos, I hope you don't mind), and in the top of the second merge, I perform a variation of that move but in a spit16.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/c2i8g17pdbv8wl2/fightonstall.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/file/c2i8g17pdbv8wl2/fightonstall.ahf)
The key with the move is not the move itself, but the ability to control the plane using the engine torque and to help understand how to use your throttle and rudder to change direction.
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Owlblink...
Also, remember, don't slam the throttle, gently pull the throttle off or push the throttle on.
Can you post a video of yourself trying? Then I can analyze it and tell you exactly why.
I'll get to that later today, have a class at noon (central time). I'll try to add commentary as to what inputs I'm using if that helps at all.
You are applying rudder in the wrong direction...you should use FULL RIGHT RUDDER.....once the planes nose drops then use left rudder and throttle to control the nose.
If you use left rudder you increase the spin..the tork is to the left...left rudder will just snap you over without control and you will as you describe tumble several times.
I trust your advice Agent and will give this a try also. I thought Bunnies told me left rudder for how he does it, but I'll have to go back and listen carefully to the video I took. Thanks for the advice, I'll try it both ways and record it to see what effects I get.
I've also been using a forward left push on my stick with the rudder, should I hold off on that? I'll try that as well and see what I get
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Owlblink,
I was going to say the same thing as Agent360, except for a different reason.
You mentioned forward-left stick and left rudder to make the hammer head. This is your problem. It is not just to do with torque.
A hammer head needs to have opposing ailerons and rudder input. So if you push forward-left, you need right rudder. Or forward-right...left rudder.
The rudder should goes the opposite way to the ailerons in a hammerhead. The aileron input is to stop the aircraft rolling, and if you put too much you will just roll the other way. So it's FULL rudder and OPPOSITE aileron, with the aileron input being gentle and calculated, not full.
Also with regard to STICK FORWARD: If you jam the stick forward too far whilst using the rudder you will also induce roll. So both aileron and elevators should be gentle and calculated, not full.
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Thanks for the film Ardy and for those offering explanations. You rule :rock
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BatfinkV & Agent...
There are some discrepancies here but I'm going to try and clarify them...
1) As your going up and getting slow, give right rudder to keep the ball in the center.
2) As your speed hits 65, this is where I gently pull off throttle and kick LEFT rudder & forward left stick, causing the plane to fall on its left wing tip.
3) Then as the left wing tip points to the ground, I gently to pull on the throttle to pull the nose toward the ground.
Agent and Batfink I think are describing something simpler, where you keep the nose up giving right rudder then you use the engine torque to roll the plane upside down, while the nose drops.
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heya Ardy, you are talking more specificaly about the 109 which is good. I was just explaining basic controls in any plane, not even talking about throttle.
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What are the advantages of a hammerhead vs a low speed loop over the top? Apart from bringing you down with a different orientation that is.
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What are the advantages of a hammerhead vs a low speed loop over the top? Apart from bringing you down with a different orientation that is.
1) you are moving very slow at the top, so you can force or prevent an overshoot
2) you can reverse directions in a very narrow amount of space
3) Not all pilots can do it and will stall out trying to follow or counter.
4) Can be done at the top of a rope to squeeze every inch out of the vert and still remained control to make the shot.
heya Ardy, you are talking more specificaly about the 109 which is good. I was just explaining basic controls in any plane, not even talking about throttle.
ahh, ok.
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I don't roll left often in a 109 just because I'm thinking about the upcoming shot. I roll over to the right to keep it slower and I can fucod better on where the enemy plane will be coming up. Plus it sets up use of my torque in the shot my right wing will be low do I can roll left into the shot.
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The 109K4 can do some rather crazy things in stalls if you play around with one for a bit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXMmp4uber4
:joystick:
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you can do the same torque rolls on any 109 from what I can see, although the verticle stuff is harder and you need to be slower to execute it. the G14 though can petty much do everything the k4 can, but its a bit slower, but has the 20mm. . .
that 30mm is real pita. I can see how people spend months if not years perfecting it. . .
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So....
:joystick:
Zoom Climb
Near the top, apply slight right rudder, zero throttle.
As plane slows to 65ish, apply left rudder, forward left stick.
As left wing points to ground, slowly apply throttle.
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you can do the same torque rolls on any 109 from what I can see, although the verticle stuff is harder and you need to be slower to execute it. the G14 though can petty much do everything the k4 can, but its a bit slower, but has the 20mm. . .
that 30mm is real pita. I can see how people spend months if not years perfecting it. . .
you can do it in a G2 and G6 & G14. I used to fly the G14 almost exclusively (with the 30mm) and I did it all the time with it.
The G14 has a slightly better climb-rate than the k4 at low alts.
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you can do it in a G2 and G6 & G14. I used to fly the G14 almost exclusively (with the 30mm) and I did it all the time with it.
The G14 has a slightly better climb-rate than the k4 at low alts.
Disagree....
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Disagree....
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/scores/genchart.php?p1=84&p2=1&pw=1>ype=2)
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The 109K4 can do some rather crazy things in stalls if you play around with one for a bit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXMmp4uber4
:joystick:
:D
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The 109K4 can do some rather crazy things in stalls if you play around with one for a bit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXMmp4uber4
:joystick:
My move is cooler! :neener: :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBgHv_GgAW0
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/scores/genchart.php?p1=84&p2=1&pw=1>ype=2)
Wanna have a G14 vs K4 fight and see who wins in the vertical?...K4 = Hangs on the prop
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Wanna have a G14 vs K4 fight and see who wins in the vertical?...K4 = Hangs on the prop
I do.. Oh wait.. you're not man enough to 1v1 me. :D
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My move is cooler!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBgHv_GgAW0
Woah, that is a really sick move to catch on film. I'd say it was a perfect one, yep.
Can I beat it with this? :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxhN3qxB130
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Woah, that is a really sick move to catch on film. I'd say it was a perfect one, yep.
Can I beat it with this? :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxhN3qxB130
lol complete ownage
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So....
:joystick:
Zoom Climb
Near the top, apply slight right rudder, zero throttle.
As plane slows to 65ish, apply left rudder, forward left stick.
As left wing points to ground, slowly apply throttle.
Right rudder, down/left stick.
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My move is cooler! :neener: :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBgHv_GgAW0
How may I ask did you pull that off, Mr. Leaf-On-the-Wind?
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Woah, that is a really sick move to catch on film. I'd say it was a perfect one, yep.
Can I beat it with this? :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxhN3qxB130
I am in awe....and it makes me want to puke realizing how far I have to go to get even halfway as good.
Weta
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Okay guys,
Sorry I've been a bit busy as of late to reply. I've tried recording my practice attempts a few times, but fate has been working against me :rolleyes: I'll try to capture some footage again in the near future.
I have been practicing, and I have noticed that pushing forward too quickly does cause the left wing to stall out. What I imagine a perfect hammerhead looks like is a sort of cartwheel effect where you aren't rolling with your left vector down but instead turning about the axis of the lift vector. I haven't been able to do this perfectly under 100MPH, but if I start it near that speed I can work with throttle and rudder to do a slow turning arc using my rudder like an elevator.
I've noticed that if I try to do the hammerhead to the left, I get a lot more hang time, it just feels a lot harder to control.
I've also managed to get the torque to flip my lift vector below the horizon on several actions, which is nice, but not quite the way I imagine the move to work that I'm trying to master. I'll keep practicing and eventually I'll get it right. My next task, after that, is to master the barrel role defense, that one seems ruff for me but that might be because I'm thinking about it too stiffly in "perfect symmetry" instead of in relation to how the enemy is flying. :cheers:
P.S. Where's a good, non-viral ridden place I can upload any game footage for you guys to look at?
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I like to use "4shared" (which is free).
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I want to thank the guys who posted their film on you Tube. (Mechanic & Krumonski) I can't seem to make most the other players work and all I get is application not found on a big white screen. Thank goodness for You Tube.
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To watch an .ahf film just associate it with the Aces High film viewer. You can also open the film viewer and browse to the downloaded film.
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I want to thank the guys who posted their film on you Tube. (Mechanic & Krumonski) I can't seem to make most the other players work and all I get is application not found on a big white screen. Thank goodness for You Tube.
Krumonski... Added to the list of names I've been called! :D
;)
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Horrible Hammerheads.ahf (http://www.4shared.com/file/MKI0NBLY/Horrible_Hammerheads.html)
Okay, I finally got this up for viewing.
- The first attempt has me hanging on the prop, I was seing what would happen if I don't counter the torque before attempting the maneuver.
- The second time you see me going up on the film looks like I came close to exacuting it.
- The third time I end up rolling at the top and ended up having to recover with left rudder; looks neat but I don't think it would be good to have happen in a fight.
- The fourth attempt only shows me struggling in a stall spin at the top, the rest was just sad so I cut the footage out.
The second attempt I had to hold a bit of left stick while using right rudder at first to keep it stable, but otherwise I'm not sure what I did differently.
If this helps you guys see what kind of trouble I'm having I'd greatly appriciate the training or advice :joystick:
P.S. just fixed link:-P
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Those were not so bad. The second one was the best by a long way. Watch it with the Trails box checked you can see things very clearly with regard to vertical travel. It seems on the ones that didnt go so well you were too late initiating the turn and fell backwards tailfirst before the nose came round. Not bad at all. Doing a perfect hammer head is not important, turning quickly in any fashion at the top of your stall will do, so don't push for 'airshow' perfection, just do whatever gets the job done. It's all just acrobatics untill we actualy have a plane beneath us on the rope anyhow.
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Owl,
See these two threads. One has a film by me with narration showing the power on stall torque roll
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,272726.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,272726.0.html)
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,286893.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,286893.0.html)
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Owlblink,
sorry I didn't get back to you sooner.. haven't been on much.
So here is the deal..
attempt 1
Excellent tail slide!!! not the right maneuver but you fell on your tail for over 1k! very cool move to trick the red guys when you want to get the h*ll out of dodge. Why that didn't work.. you kicked left rudder too late, and you need to pull off not shut off the throttle. Also pull off the throttle as you kick the left rudder.. then as the nose is almost parallel to the horizon, push on the throttle to swing the nose back down.
attempt 2
Almost, you executed it a little fast, wait till your about 75 to 85. Also, make your angle of climb a bit steeper.