Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: sheperd on January 24, 2011, 08:10:58 AM

Title: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: sheperd on January 24, 2011, 08:10:58 AM
Anyone use hall sensors? trying to mod my rudder pedals and ran into issues  :bhead could use some advise
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: sheperd on January 24, 2011, 08:16:59 AM
This is the wiring dia. for my mod, the center pot (hall sensor) is not being picked up. The center pot shows no ground, but the hall has to be grounded to work, is that causing my issue?

(http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv272/hotwire_2009/rudder_large.jpg)

The dia below is how I wired it

(http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv272/hotwire_2009/rudderhallmod_large.jpg)
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: FLS on January 24, 2011, 11:05:10 AM
I modded my CH pedals with the top diagram but I used the stock pots. Did you try contacting CubPilot? He seems to be the authority on Hall sensors.

http://www.cubpilotshangar.net/
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: nrshida on January 24, 2011, 12:16:13 PM
Somehow I think the third output from the centre Hall Effect sensor is causing the trouble. What are the issues, that the brakes work but the rudder doesn't? Where does the diagram originate?
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: sheperd on January 24, 2011, 12:40:41 PM
Somehow I think the third output from the centre Hall Effect sensor is causing the trouble. What are the issues, that the brakes work but the rudder doesn't? Where does the diagram originate?

The diag. comes from the cougar site, and yes that seems to be the issue, I'm seeing a response on the brakes but not the rudder.
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: nrshida on January 24, 2011, 12:59:06 PM
Think about it from the circuit's point of view. What is is to make of that additional input from the rudder sensor on to pin 4 and 5, won't it be the inverse of the value of the rudder position and hence cancel that out? That could explain your symptoms. Is there another ground available? What happens when you separate the inputs to pin 4 and 5? I take it you cannot leave the third wire unconnected as it is with the potentiometers?

I am just idly speculating mind you, I haven't looked on the Cougar site. Hope you get it working Shepherd!
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: sheperd on January 24, 2011, 01:54:48 PM
pin 4 to 5 makes it see the 3 axis rudder, if you do not connect it you will only see rudder and no brakes.
as for the 3rd wire a hall effect sensor requires a ground, I thought about using a separate 5v and ground and just sending the signal to pin 11 but that is a serious risk, I cant afford another cougar stick!!!!!!

I should point out the rudder I have is a single axis, the diag. shows how to mod a single axis to incorporate brakes using 100k ohm pots...not halls.
I may have to resort to using a pot for rudder and halls for brakes...haven't tried that yet. but the object is to get away from pots altogether in my new pit.
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: nrshida on January 24, 2011, 02:04:21 PM
Apparently there's no other ground on the DB15 connector.

If it is wired exactly as your diagram shows, you could try moving the rudder earth to the other side of the right brake (downstream of it, in between it and the earth). Might be worth a try.

I can try to ask my electronics friend for you if you wish? There will be a short delay, he lives in a different country to me.

Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: sheperd on January 24, 2011, 02:08:28 PM
I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say moving the ground? the grounds are electricy the same regardless of where in the circuit you connect  them, I'm Guessing I'm not understanding what you are trying to say. By all means please do contact your friend any help is welcome! and thanks!
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: Reschke on January 24, 2011, 05:05:28 PM
Just so I am correct here on this Shep...you are trying to use three hall sensors right?

At least that is what I understand from the diagram and what I have seen guys do in the past.
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: sheperd on January 24, 2011, 09:03:54 PM
That is the goal, but so far I can only get the left toe brake working....I even put the pot back in center (ruder contol) and just tried the 2 toe brakes with halls. My thinking was the ground on the center hall was messing up the circuit ...the rudder works with pot and left toe brake works with hall sensor but the right brake is dead... :headscratch: I checked my wiring over and over and my wiring is ok....... :bhead 
My next step is to get 2 more 100k ohm pots and try it that way to test if the diagram is good but the sites I have seen even on cubpilots page the pinout looks good
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: nrshida on January 25, 2011, 12:33:51 AM
Swap the left and right brake sensors and test it again. If the fault changes sides you have a faulty sensor. Might even have two faulty sensors (centre one as well), don't assume anything if you have the means to test instead. You know the circuit works for the left brake, I'd test the other two sensors in that position and see if they're working first.
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: sheperd on January 25, 2011, 06:45:08 AM
you are a smart man, I replaced the sensor with a new one however is did not swap the input signal from 13 to 14 ...I'll give that a go.
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: doright on January 28, 2011, 04:20:07 PM
Anyone use hall sensors? trying to mod my rudder pedals and ran into issues  :bhead could use some advise

What are you using for the hall sensors?
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: Charge on January 29, 2011, 07:56:25 AM
Just tried this with two Clarostat HRS100 sensors, other as rudder and other as toebrake and mixed those with one 100k normal pot as other toebrake, all connected to 5V and GND, and they work just fine.

Remember that when you are working with hall sensors they always need ground to work as they are not potentiometers i.e. adjustable resistors but sensors with internal circuitry. Also remember to restart the device after connecting a new pot/sensor so that it is detected correctly.

-C+

Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: sheperd on January 29, 2011, 09:04:43 AM
allegro A1321LUA-T is the sensor I'm using actualy its the -L wich is a bit less sensitive I cant find the -T in the USA after switching the input  signal from the working toe brake to the non working brake I do believe that i have a bad input on my right toe brake as it works on the left but not the right.
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: sheperd on January 30, 2011, 09:46:23 AM
 :bhead I set up everything using pots and still have no response on my right toe brake in the viewer or in the calibration slider. can you get both toe brakes working using the dafault program ? or do you have to diable another axis in the stick profile?
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: Charge on January 31, 2011, 04:47:07 AM
It should not need any switching in control program. If you measure the right toe brake sensor there should be 5V (against the ground pin, as the Cougar gameport GND is not the connected to chassis ground) and the voltage from center pin should change when you press the brake pedal (again against the GND pin), if it does, then measure the center pin to connector pin to make sure the wire is not broken. I use the Cougar's stick chart program to see the inputs are working. I think they are labeled S1, RZ and RY.

-C+
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: jocrp6 on January 31, 2011, 12:29:14 PM
   Hey guy's,  you might want to look in to how much voltage it takes to make hall effect sensors work,  i belive you need at least 12V to start with1
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: sheperd on January 31, 2011, 01:13:09 PM
they are all differant I have the 5 volt halls. they are seen and function as they should ...the problem I have is, the right toe brake hall or pot (I have used both) is not seen.

ok a brief rundown on where I stand now
1. I am using 3 100k ohm pots.
2. circuit checks out no broken wires and wired correctly... I have checked everything with a VOM.
3. rudder works fine
4 left toe brake works fine
5. Right toe brake shows no response at all, In the viewer screen or in the calibration screen (on the value scale)
6. everything will calibrate fine using manual calibration, I see left toe brake values change during calibration, but on the right toe brake. I get no movment in the viewer and no value change in the calibration scale durring the calibration  proceedure on the right toe brake.

(*note*)
although it calibrates. I still get no right brake response in the viewer, calibration value scale or in AH
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: TequilaChaser on January 31, 2011, 01:26:00 PM
got a way to take a picture of the actual Hall sensors or Pots on the Rudder Pedals to show the wiring , as well as taking a picture of the DB15 pin connector with wires soldered on/attached?

from the schematic it looks like the (2) +5V's (pin1/pin9) are spliced/connected going to each Hall Sensor or Pot and same for the grounds looks like both grounds (pin4/pin5) are spliced/connected then going to each Hall Sensor or Pot

with out no "wire color legend" of the wires, it makes the schematic a bit misleading

actual pics, or updated/edited wiring schematic might help point something obvious out to the electrical types on these boards...

doubt this helps, but hope it might
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: sheperd on January 31, 2011, 01:45:48 PM

from the schematic it looks like the (2) +5V's (pin1/pin9) are spliced/connected going to each Hall Sensor or Pot and same for the grounds looks like both grounds (pin4/pin5) are spliced/connected then going to each Hall Sensor or Pot


 electrically correct... they are hooked up in parrallel




actual pics, or updated/edited wiring schematic might help point something obvious out to the electrical types on these boards...

I'm an electronic tech, well have an associates degree in it anyways but, it's been a long time since I have used my schooling though, and I'm by no means an expert. a lot has changed since I went to school  :old: and I don't work in the that field anymore but my wiring is fine, its either a program issue or a bad input on my HOTAS MOBO. I'm hoping a HOTAS Cougar user can point out the issue if it's a programming issue (the other alternative STINKS!!!!!)



Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: TequilaChaser on January 31, 2011, 02:10:00 PM


 electrically correct... they are hooked up in parrallel



I'm an electronic tech, well have an associates degree in it anyways but, it's been a long time since I have used my schooling though, and I'm by no means an expert. a lot has changed since I went to school  :old: and I don't work in the that field anymore but my wiring is fine,
1 - its either a program issue
2 - or a bad input on my HOTAS MOBO.
I'm hoping a HOTAS Cougar user can point out the issue if it's a programming issue (the other alternative STINKS!!!!!)





rgr on the parrallel wiring

items 1 & 2 above in your quote are new info / possiblities to the problem first listed, or I didn't catch it the first time I read thru the entire thread......

hopefully someone will see this thread and help you figure out if either is the problematic cause of why it's not recognizing the right toe brake

good luck
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: sheperd on January 31, 2011, 02:30:29 PM
rgr on the parrallel wiring

items 1 & 2 above in your quote are new info / possiblities to the problem first listed, or I didn't catch it the first time I read thru the entire thread......

hopefully someone will see this thread and help you figure out if either is the problematic cause of why it's not recognizing the right toe brake

good luck

 :salute thank you sir!
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: Charge on January 31, 2011, 04:28:43 PM
Any possibility that you messed up the axis settings from Cougar CP?

-C+
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: jocrp6 on January 31, 2011, 05:43:17 PM
Should not be rocket science on this one,  If hall effect sensor is good and not flipped, then you have a open in 14,
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: sheperd on February 01, 2011, 07:04:07 AM
Should not be rocket science on this one,  If hall effect sensor is good and not flipped, then you have a open in 14,

ok lets look at this, If so can the MOBO be repaired I dont have a schematic of it. If you have 1 can you unplug and OHM it out from 13 to ground and 14 to ground and tell me if they are the same so I have a compairison. we will go off the assumption that no other devises are connected. just stick base alone no rudder and no TQS. I have not ohmed mine out yet and Im at work so I will have to report tomorrow on it.
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: sheperd on February 01, 2011, 07:09:00 AM
Any possibility that you messed up the axis settings from Cougar CP?

-C+
That is what I'm hoping for, I have the loadout set to default profile, no changes in the joystick file and I have moved the rudder & toe brake axis around to diffrent axis as well as changed their curve from + to neg...no luck.
Someone mentioned disabling an axis as it may not be able to handle that many, but I don't know about programing...reading the manual now and trying to learn how to prog the stick.
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: FLS on February 01, 2011, 09:58:14 AM
The Cougar has two axis more than DX can see for one device. You need to turn two off in CP and use Foxy to set them as digital axis. I suggest you turn off the mini stick on the throttle if you have that on. If the throttle isn't plugged in there shouldn't be an issue with the number of axis per device.
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: sheperd on February 01, 2011, 11:26:57 AM

OK now we are getting somewhere.  :banana: TY TY TY :pray  :cheers:

#1.
You need to turn two off in CP

how do I do this?
is this done just by selecting the Y and Y ministick axis  in slot 9 and 10 (if so I have done that)

#2"
use Foxy to set them as digital axis.

 ...how do I do this?
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: jocrp6 on February 01, 2011, 01:10:07 PM
I don't know anything about couger controls!  but i do know that is a very simple series/parallel circuit,  if you think its the circuit, switch 13 and 14,  see what happens,   probly what has happened is a cold soilder joint break or wire going into the controller from just normal life,  how old are the controls?   and I not saying go by new!
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: sheperd on February 01, 2011, 01:38:24 PM
I thank you for trying to help, but as I have said before the circuit is fine, its a bad board on the stick or a program issue.
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: FLS on February 01, 2011, 04:31:15 PM
OK now we are getting somewhere.  :banana: TY TY TY :pray  :cheers:

#1.
how do I do this?
is this done just by selecting the Y and Y ministick axis  in slot 9 and 10 (if so I have done that)

#2"
 ...how do I do this?

Right, you just click the little box to turn them on or off.

I just used my ministick button as a 4 way hat. If you need the 2 axis there's probably a tutorial for it in Foxy.
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: sheperd on February 11, 2011, 12:25:19 PM
ok lets look at this, If so can the MOBO be repaired I dont have a schematic of it. If you have 1 can you unplug and OHM it out from 13 to ground and 14 to ground and tell me if they are the same so I have a compairison. we will go off the assumption that no other devises are connected. just stick base alone no rudder and no TQS. I have not ohmed mine out yet and Im at work so I will have to report tomorrow on it.

on my right toe brake input (pin 14 to ground) I'm reading an open ...I do believe my mobo on my stick is dead on right toe brake only...I  will have to install a diffrent controll board to run my toe brakes :cry
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: FLS on February 11, 2011, 01:49:22 PM
Link appears broken at the moment but if you get one of these you will expand the control possibilities for your simpit.

http://www.leobodnar.com/products/BU0836X/
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: Tigger29 on February 15, 2011, 02:39:25 PM
Link appears broken at the moment but if you get one of these you will expand the control possibilities for your simpit.

http://www.leobodnar.com/products/BU0836X/

I don't know what's going on but if you put an underscore under products, it works fine:

http://www.leobodnar.com/products_/BU0836X/ (http://www.leobodnar.com/products_/BU0836X/)

other options available:

http://www.leobodnar.com/products_/BU0836/ (http://www.leobodnar.com/products_/BU0836/)
http://www.leobodnar.com/products_/BU0836A/ (http://www.leobodnar.com/products_/BU0836A/)
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: sheperd on February 22, 2011, 07:30:01 AM
wich is the best of the 3?
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: nrshida on February 22, 2011, 08:22:44 AM
Well you need to make two choices. First do you want to go for 12-bit precision on not. I did for my throttle. Perhaps it was overkill for that but for stick & rudder use I would definitely choose it. If you do go for 12-bit the next step is to decide if you need a hat switch on the controller or not. If not save yourself some money and buy the BU0836A. If you do need a hat switch you can still use that controller but you might need to do a bit of wiring with a couple of diodes.

The BU0836X is the easiest to use and fiddle with because you can just plug whatever wires in and out as you please. It already has 32 separate switch inputs built in. If you're adding more controls to a simpit, like a switch panel for instance you can just wire those into the controller as well as your rudder inputs, for example.

Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: hyzer on February 22, 2011, 02:45:14 PM
By using one of those cool little boards can you really just buy the pots and hat switches, attach them to a pole and have you own joystick!  I understand I may have omitted one or two steps, but in all seriousness can that be done?   :pray
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: Charge on February 23, 2011, 05:47:59 AM
Well that is what they are intended for. Also very handy for converting a trusty old gameport stick to USB age.    :aok

-C+
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: nrshida on February 23, 2011, 06:09:45 AM
By using one of those cool little boards can you really just buy the pots and hat switches, attach them to a pole and have you own joystick!  I understand I may have omitted one or two steps, but in all seriousness can that be done?   :pray

You will need some mechanical elements like a gimbal or some pivots of course. A Broomstick in a bucket probably isn't going to be that useful  :lol but as Charge said, it does open up some possibilities. Pay special attention to the potentiometers would be my advice.

Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: sheperd on February 23, 2011, 06:49:13 AM
lol I understand how it works, I was just asking which ppl prefer. well I ordered mine and it is being shipped as I type. However I may still keep the interfaces I am currently using in my pit now and will intergrate this board in for mor demanding simulations.
Title: Re: HALL SENSOR MOD...
Post by: hyzer on February 23, 2011, 08:19:58 AM
You will need some mechanical elements like a gimbal or some pivots of course. A Broomstick in a bucket probably isn't going to be that useful  :lol but as Charge said, it does open up some possibilities. Pay special attention to the potentiometers would be my advice.

Hehe, you read my mind on the bucket approach :)

My ultimate goal would be to create a floor mounted stick with a longer throw than what we can get from our desk top sticks.  I can see me now explaining to the wife, I have to buy $5,000 worth of metal working tooling to replace my current $30 twisty stick.   :x